Re: [WSG] About Lightbox and SEO
On Dec 3, 2007 7:48 AM, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I have used them the caption has always come form the link's title attribute so I would assume that to be accessible? Accessible to whom? Some points to bear in mind: 1) Many (most?) screenreaders do not read the title attribute by default. 2) Many (most?) screenreaders are perfectly able to execute JavaScript, so when the user clicks the link, what happens? It might announce that the document structure has been updated (by the addition of the lightbox div overlay), but that doesn't tell you where or what has happened. 3) Screen magnifier users might not be able to see the changes to the screen when they click the lightbox link. 4) If the link's href points to the image, how does that help people with scripting disabled? They just get the picture, with no caption. Your solution is good inasmuch as it doesn't rely 100% on JavaScript, but there are still many accessibility issues to consider. - Matthew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Video Standards
Hi all, Many people would not yet have considered how business and organisations are going to handle video as a standard document format. Can we get some feedback about how much interest there would be in a proposal for standard guidelines related to upload, storage, display of video and its associated information.and playing of video? We have put a lot of thought into this during the creation of our software, SMACKB!Z at smackbiz.biz. If there is sufficient interest, we will make a proposal for general comment. With thanks, Damian Hickey CEO ZacWare Level 20, 300 Queen St. Brisbane Queensland, 4000 Australia Ph +61 (0) 415 981 852 Fax +61 (7) 31124221 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] online: www.zac-ware.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] About Lightbox and SEO
Matthew Pennell 1) Many (most?) screenreaders do not read the title attribute by default. 2) Many (most?) screenreaders are perfectly able to execute JavaScript, so when the user clicks the link, what happens? It might announce that the document structure has been updated (by the addition of the lightbox div overlay), but that doesn't tell you where or what has happened. 3) Screen magnifier users might not be able to see the changes to the screen when they click the lightbox link. 4) If the link's href points to the image, how does that help people with scripting disabled? They just get the picture, with no caption. Another one: 5) by default, lightbox scripts don't account for keyboard users very well; try tabbing to a lightbox image, activate it, then try to simply tab to the close button. in most situations, the caret/focus is still on the page: you've effectively tabbed to the next focusable element on the main page, but the lightbox is still there and blocking the view. yes, some lightboxes have added things like pressing X or ESC to close the lightbox, but that's not obvious to users. After a lot of soul-searching, I added a lightbox to our site, but made some modifications to its code and implementation. Still far from perfect, but I only use them for added interest, not really important content (though yes, we can argue that *any* content added is important, and should therefore be exposed completely to screen reader users): 1) the ALT reads Photo: [title of image] (click to enlarge) 2) yes, that's still a problem. I'm hoping that soon we'll be able to drop some ARIA stuff in there to alleviate the problem. 3) yes, also still problematic. 4) I've spent a bit of time working on this with additional scripting. Basically, the non-javascript link points to our photo gallery page. With javascript enabled, there's an additional script that modifies the href value of the lightbox links and adds a further GET parameter to the URL. the photo gallery page at the receiving end looks for this parameter, and if present simply pushes out the image on its own. Hope that makes sense...see it in action (with and without javascript) at http://www.salford.ac.uk/about/special/ for instance. I use slimbox with mootools, and my additional script that does this is pretty straightforward http://webhost.salford.ac.uk/common/slimbox_custom.js 5) i've modified the original slimbox to also close when a user tabs, to at least make it more friendly to sighted keyboard users. In short, there's still no perfect solution, but I had to make a pragmatic decision in this regard. I'm ready to be tarred and feathered now :) P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] About Lightbox and SEO
Wow who decided it was a good idea to have screen readers support javascript and not title attributes! You could make make the image point to an html file with the same filename and folder as the image then the javascript could replace with .htm with .jpg. Matthew Pennell wrote: On Dec 3, 2007 7:48 AM, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I have used them the caption has always come form the link's title attribute so I would assume that to be accessible? Accessible to whom? Some points to bear in mind: 1) Many (most?) screenreaders do not read the title attribute by default. 2) Many (most?) screenreaders are perfectly able to execute JavaScript, so when the user clicks the link, what happens? It might announce that the document structure has been updated (by the addition of the lightbox div overlay), but that doesn't tell you where or what has happened. 3) Screen magnifier users might not be able to see the changes to the screen when they click the lightbox link. 4) If the link's href points to the image, how does that help people with scripting disabled? They just get the picture, with no caption. Your solution is good inasmuch as it doesn't rely 100% on JavaScript, but there are still many accessibility issues to consider. - Matthew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] About Lightbox and SEO
Wow, nobody decided whether or not it was a good idea or not. Screen readers sit on top of the regular browser (in most cases on Windows, Internet Explorer). They don't support javascript, they read the browser's DOM. The DOM is affected by javascript. As users work their way through a page, they are simply using the browser. If there's any js behaviour associated with links or other tabbable elements, the browser fires these off as usual. Now, as for title: screen readers support them (insofar as they can read the title information from the DOM). Whether or not they automatically read title out or not is a matter of user preferences. By default, they don't (but the title is still available to users if they trigger that particular functionality in the screen reader or set it as a preference). P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jixor - Stephen I Sent: 03 December 2007 10:47 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] About Lightbox and SEO Wow who decided it was a good idea to have screen readers support javascript and not title attributes! You could make make the image point to an html file with the same filename and folder as the image then the javascript could replace with .htm with .jpg. Matthew Pennell wrote: On Dec 3, 2007 7:48 AM, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I have used them the caption has always come form the link's title attribute so I would assume that to be accessible? Accessible to whom? Some points to bear in mind: 1) Many (most?) screenreaders do not read the title attribute by default. 2) Many (most?) screenreaders are perfectly able to execute JavaScript, so when the user clicks the link, what happens? It might announce that the document structure has been updated (by the addition of the lightbox div overlay), but that doesn't tell you where or what has happened. 3) Screen magnifier users might not be able to see the changes to the screen when they click the lightbox link. 4) If the link's href points to the image, how does that help people with scripting disabled? They just get the picture, with no caption. Your solution is good inasmuch as it doesn't rely 100% on JavaScript, but there are still many accessibility issues to consider. - Matthew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
Hello All, I'm working on a Likert scale questionnaire (Strongly Agree/Agree/ Undecided/Disagree/Strongly Disagree) with 20 questions and some Googling came up with the following approach... http://www.enterpriseaccessibility.com/articles/ AccessibleRadioButtons.html ...and I was wondering what the general opinion of this or any other solutions was. Thanks, Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
I don't recommend that solution. We have tested this kind of form with a highly proficient screen reader user, and he could not understand it at all. In fact it was one of the few tasks he has ever failed to complete. This is one of those cases where marking up content so it is semantically correct does not mean it can be understood by users. I recommend using label elements for each radio button and hiding them off-screen. This was discussed at length on GAWDS very recently but I don't have time to dig out the thread. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Lo Sent: 03 December 2007 12:34 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms Hello All, I'm working on a Likert scale questionnaire (Strongly Agree/Agree/ Undecided/Disagree/Strongly Disagree) with 20 questions and some Googling came up with the following approach... http://www.enterpriseaccessibility.com/articles/ AccessibleRadioButtons.html ...and I was wondering what the general opinion of this or any other solutions was. Thanks, Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
Hi Nick, The sample code on this page you link to does not look ideal. As has been mentioned on this list a few times, title attributes are often ignored by screen readers. And the use of a table element to lay out the form is a little odd. Unless I am missing something, I'd say it would be much better if it marked up with standard form elements. For example (warning - code below thrown together very quickly): form action=# method=get fieldset legendThe product is a good value for the dollar/legend label for=strongly-agreeinput name=likert id=strongly-agree type=radio /strongly agree/label label for=agreeinput name=likert id=agree type=radio /agree/label label for=disagreeinput name=likert id=disagree type=radio /disagree/label label for=undecidedinput name=likert id=undecided type=radio /undecided/label label for=strongly-disagreeinput name=likert id=strongly-disagree type=radio /strongly disagree/label input name=submit id=submit type=submit value=Submit / /fieldset /form You can then use CSS (and a hammer if needed) to position these form elements exactly as you want. HTH Russ Hello All, I'm working on a Likert scale questionnaire (Strongly Agree/Agree/ Undecided/Disagree/Strongly Disagree) with 20 questions and some Googling came up with the following approach... http://www.enterpriseaccessibility.com/articles/ AccessibleRadioButtons.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] About Lightbox and SEO
On Behalf Of Matheus Neves Hi all, I see everybody using lightbox as a good solution for photo galeries, i´d like to know if anyone now anything about it´s SEO friendliness and if it´s also following acessibility guidelines. I did something not as nice as lightbox, but IMHO a bit more accessible: http://tjkdesign.com/articles/gallery/photo_gallery.asp -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] nested fieldset/legend/list/label/input css woes in IE6/7
Hi to the List, I'm working on an advanced form Layout for a complicated questionnaire application. I've setteled on a nested fieldset/legend/list/label/input markup wich is semantically correct imho. And now i'm running (expectedly) into some Problems in IE6/7. I've uploaded a testcase for the markup along with a description and some browser test results. Any help greatly appreciated. Testcase URL: http://snusnu.info/~armitage/questions_testcase.html -- thanks in advance, Milan Zoufal *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
Steve Green wrote: I recommend using label elements for each radio button and hiding them off-screen. Possibly even better for keyboard and screenreader users: swapping out the radio buttons approach with a single SELECT. However, this of course throws the expected visual design out the window... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] nested fieldset/legend/list/label/input css woes in IE6/7
What happens if you use add the for attribute for the label? Does that help correct any of the problem? Other than that I don't see anything that should be causing too much of a problem. Lord Armitage wrote: Hi to the List, I'm working on an advanced form Layout for a complicated questionnaire application. I've setteled on a nested fieldset/legend/list/label/input markup wich is semantically correct imho. And now i'm running (expectedly) into some Problems in IE6/7. I've uploaded a testcase for the markup along with a description and some browser test results. Any help greatly appreciated. Testcase URL: http://snusnu.info/~armitage/questions_testcase.html -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
Hi Patrick, Actually I had already prepared one as an alternative version to discuss with the client so glad you brought it up independently. Nick On 04/12/2007, at 5:10 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Steve Green wrote: I recommend using label elements for each radio button and hiding them off-screen. Possibly even better for keyboard and screenreader users: swapping out the radio buttons approach with a single SELECT. However, this of course throws the expected visual design out the window... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
Hi Steve, I don't recommend that solution. We have tested this kind of form with a highly proficient screen reader user, and he could not understand it at all. In fact it was one of the few tasks he has ever failed to complete. This is one of those cases where marking up content so it is semantically correct does not mean it can be understood by users. I recommend using label elements for each radio button and hiding them off-screen. Yes that is what I thought. Even some vague testing with FANGS over 20 questions just looked so complex I wondered how usable even a correctly marked up one would be. For this reason I played with a SELECT solution mentioned by Patrick. Thanks, Nick This was discussed at length on GAWDS very recently but I don't have time to dig out the thread. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Lo Sent: 03 December 2007 12:34 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms Hello All, I'm working on a Likert scale questionnaire (Strongly Agree/Agree/ Undecided/Disagree/Strongly Disagree) with 20 questions and some Googling came up with the following approach... http://www.enterpriseaccessibility.com/articles/ AccessibleRadioButtons.html ...and I was wondering what the general opinion of this or any other solutions was. Thanks, Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
On 04/12/2007, at 12:07 AM, russ - maxdesign wrote: Hi Nick, The sample code on this page you link to does not look ideal. As has been mentioned on this list a few times, title attributes are often ignored by screen readers. And the use of a table element to lay out the form is a little odd. Unless I am missing something, I'd say it would be much better if it marked up with standard form elements. For example (warning - code below thrown together very quickly): form action=# method=get fieldset legendThe product is a good value for the dollar/legend label for=strongly-agreeinput name=likert id=strongly-agree type=radio /strongly agree/label label for=agreeinput name=likert id=agree type=radio /agree/label label for=disagreeinput name=likert id=disagree type=radio /disagree/label label for=undecidedinput name=likert id=undecided type=radio /undecided/label label for=strongly-disagreeinput name=likert id=strongly-disagree type=radio /strongly disagree/label input name=submit id=submit type=submit value=Submit / /fieldset /form You can then use CSS (and a hammer if needed) to position these form elements exactly as you want. That does help Russ, thanks. As I said to Steve though I do wonder how much fun using JAWS or such like would be going through all that for 20 similar questions! Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] CMS and site design
I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn Patterson Western Web Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] CMS and site design
Hi Lyn, In order for them to work correctly, CMS systems usually restrict you to using/designing application specific templates (some even incorporate templating languages). You'll likely need to work with the CMS from the word go. Bear in mind that if you haven't worked with CMS driven sites before, there can be quite a learning curve... :) Paul From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lyn Patterson Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:39 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] CMS and site design I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn Patterson Western Web Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS and site design
Hi Lyn, I have worked with Joomla! quite a bit - and do be honest I am not a great fan. It is quite powerful in what you can do with it. Too answer your question you are not limited in your design, however there is a bit of a learning curve when it comes to Joomla! Also, you do not do your design with Joomla! - rather you integrate your design into Joomla! I would define exactly what your client needs and then look at your options from there. Regards Adam On Dec 4, 2007 8:39 AM, Lyn Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn Patterson Western Web Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- - http://myfitness.ning.com A community of people that care about their health and fitness Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
The problem with the code below is that the content of the legend will be read before every label. That makes it very difficult for a screen reader user to read it fast. I would just have the question in a p or possibly even a header element. Once the user has read through a few questions and realises that the structure is consistent, they won't need to listen to the whole of each label and they can very quickly skip through the form. What is your opinion on the idea of using SELECT mentioned by Patrick? Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
Steve Green wrote: The problem with the code below is that the content of the legend will be read before every label. That makes it very difficult for a screen reader user to read it fast. I would just have the question in a p or possibly even a header element. However, if the user is in JAWS' forms mode, are headers/paragraphs not ignored (say as they're tabbing from input to input)? Sorry, been a while since I actually sat in front of a proper JAWS installation... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
The problem with the code below is that the content of the legend will be read before every label. That makes it very difficult for a screen reader user to read it fast. I would just have the question in a p or possibly even a header element. Once the user has read through a few questions and realises that the structure is consistent, they won't need to listen to the whole of each label and they can very quickly skip through the form. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Lo Sent: 03 December 2007 22:40 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms On 04/12/2007, at 12:07 AM, russ - maxdesign wrote: Hi Nick, The sample code on this page you link to does not look ideal. As has been mentioned on this list a few times, title attributes are often ignored by screen readers. And the use of a table element to lay out the form is a little odd. Unless I am missing something, I'd say it would be much better if it marked up with standard form elements. For example (warning - code below thrown together very quickly): form action=# method=get fieldset legendThe product is a good value for the dollar/legend label for=strongly-agreeinput name=likert id=strongly-agree type=radio /strongly agree/label label for=agreeinput name=likert id=agree type=radio /agree/label label for=disagreeinput name=likert id=disagree type=radio /disagree/label label for=undecidedinput name=likert id=undecided type=radio /undecided/label label for=strongly-disagreeinput name=likert id=strongly-disagree type=radio /strongly disagree/label input name=submit id=submit type=submit value=Submit / /fieldset /form You can then use CSS (and a hammer if needed) to position these form elements exactly as you want. That does help Russ, thanks. As I said to Steve though I do wonder how much fun using JAWS or such like would be going through all that for 20 similar questions! Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS and site design
I'd think a little bit more about what you want your CMS to do before jumping in with Joomla. I've only given it a cursory look over before because I wasn't that impressed particularly by the sort of templating it uses and the code it outputs. If your client just wants to edit pages themselves and maybe add some news items, you might find that Joomla has a lot more functionality than you actually need and you might find something like Wordpress or Textpattern better suits your needs. If you host supports Joomla, you'll be able to use pretty much any other open source CMS too. So, not having used Joomla, but having used others like Wordpress, Expression Engine and CMS Made Simple, to answer your question: yes, you'd create a basic HTML template first and then split it up into the various template files that the CMS uses. Along the way you'll need to learn a bit about the in-built functions that the CMSs use to do various dynamic functions. On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:39:27 +1000, Lyn Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn Patterson Western Web Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] RE:CMS and site design
Thanks Adam and John I think it will be just a matter of adding the odd photo and bit of text so will check out WordPress etc. It certainly won't be a full-blown management system that is required. Thanks for the input. Lyn Western Web Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS and site design
Hi Lyn, Personally, I had a bad experience working with joomla, and as a CMS, my clients are not big fans either. I found it easier to build my own CMS for the clients. MT Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Lyn, I have worked with Joomla! quite a bit - and do be honest I am not a great fan. It is quite powerful in what you can do with it. Too answer your question you are not limited in your design, however there is a bit of a learning curve when it comes to Joomla! Also, you do not do your design with Joomla! - rather you integrate your design into Joomla! I would define exactly what your client needs and then look at your options from there. Regards Adam On Dec 4, 2007 8:39 AM, Lyn Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn Patterson Western Web Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- - http://myfitness.ning.com A community of people that care about their health and fitness Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
Undoubtedly it's the cleanest way to achieve the required functionality, and there are fewer accessibility issues. However, it is less easy for a user to quickly review their answers because they have to read the text rather than just look at the physical position of the selected radio button. Also it doesn't give an indication of the trend, although this will not always be relevant. For most users it will take longer to fill in a form using select rather than radio buttons; at least two actions compared with one. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Lo Sent: 03 December 2007 23:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms The problem with the code below is that the content of the legend will be read before every label. That makes it very difficult for a screen reader user to read it fast. I would just have the question in a p or possibly even a header element. Once the user has read through a few questions and realises that the structure is consistent, they won't need to listen to the whole of each label and they can very quickly skip through the form. What is your opinion on the idea of using SELECT mentioned by Patrick? Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
I have made such radio inputs highlight the selected item to make it even more clear what the user has selected. Thats the radio and label obviously, not just the radio. Of course that is only possible via javascript however it still seems worthwhile. Steve Green wrote: You're right, and this is a problem we always have. Users develop different ways of approaching forms, and some will jump in and out of forms mode to make sure they read anything that is not in a label e.g. validation rules. However, in the example given, I think the legend is way too long and will deter the user from filling in the form at all. Without user testing you can't be certain what people will do, but my experience suggests that users will work out that they need to go in and out of forms mode, and that it is not unduly onerous to do so. As long as the structure is consistent they will be able to navigate quickly. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: 04 December 2007 00:00 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms Steve Green wrote: The problem with the code below is that the content of the legend will be read before every label. That makes it very difficult for a screen reader user to read it fast. I would just have the question in a p or possibly even a header element. However, if the user is in JAWS' forms mode, are headers/paragraphs not ignored (say as they're tabbing from input to input)? Sorry, been a while since I actually sat in front of a proper JAWS installation... P *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms
You're right, and this is a problem we always have. Users develop different ways of approaching forms, and some will jump in and out of forms mode to make sure they read anything that is not in a label e.g. validation rules. However, in the example given, I think the legend is way too long and will deter the user from filling in the form at all. Without user testing you can't be certain what people will do, but my experience suggests that users will work out that they need to go in and out of forms mode, and that it is not unduly onerous to do so. As long as the structure is consistent they will be able to navigate quickly. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: 04 December 2007 00:00 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible likert scale (disagree/agree/strongly agree/etc) forms Steve Green wrote: The problem with the code below is that the content of the legend will be read before every label. That makes it very difficult for a screen reader user to read it fast. I would just have the question in a p or possibly even a header element. However, if the user is in JAWS' forms mode, are headers/paragraphs not ignored (say as they're tabbing from input to input)? Sorry, been a while since I actually sat in front of a proper JAWS installation... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS and site design
On 04-Dec-07, at 4:09 AM, Lyn Patterson wrote: I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn, I would highly recommend Textpattern for a simple site. My usual workflow is: 1. Mockups (PSD/Fireworks/paper) 2. xHTML/CSS templates 3. Integrate in Textpattern 4. Add salt Using any CMS requires a little bit of a shift in thinking, I suppose. However, the forums are relatively pleasant, and I'd be happy to help you with any questions that you have. Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS and site design
I would firstly consider what the content that your client wants to be able to update himself actually is. If its highly complicated then you might want to try to convince your client that it is not a good idea to update it themselves. That said I try to convince all clients regardless of job not to update themselves. Rahul Gonsalves wrote: On 04-Dec-07, at 4:09 AM, Lyn Patterson wrote: I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn, I would highly recommend Textpattern for a simple site. My usual workflow is: 1. Mockups (PSD/Fireworks/paper) 2. xHTML/CSS templates 3. Integrate in Textpattern 4. Add salt Using any CMS requires a little bit of a shift in thinking, I suppose. However, the forums are relatively pleasant, and I'd be happy to help you with any questions that you have. Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] RE: [WSG} CMS and Site Design
Thanks Stephen and Rahul Yes, I always try to do all updating myself and this is the first client that really needs to do it as it will be a fairly frequent event. I had a talk to him and it will only be replacing one photo with another and changing a bit of text so nothing too onerous. Will have a look at TextPattern I think and will take you up on your offer of help Rahul once I get started, which won't be for a little while until I receive all the data. Lyn Western Web Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS and site design
What is it you like best about texpattern. I've done one Mambo site and really wasn't happy at all with they system once I learned it. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Rahul Gonsalves wrote: On 04-Dec-07, at 4:09 AM, Lyn Patterson wrote: I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn, I would highly recommend Textpattern for a simple site. My usual workflow is: 1. Mockups (PSD/Fireworks/paper) 2. xHTML/CSS templates 3. Integrate in Textpattern 4. Add salt Using any CMS requires a little bit of a shift in thinking, I suppose. However, the forums are relatively pleasant, and I'd be happy to help you with any questions that you have. Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS and site design
This makes me think does anyone know of a really good comparison table, I have seen some that just have a few technical features listed but they actually are fairly useless for most concerns. Michael Horowitz wrote: What is it you like best about texpattern. I've done one Mambo site and really wasn't happy at all with they system once I learned it. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Rahul Gonsalves wrote: On 04-Dec-07, at 4:09 AM, Lyn Patterson wrote: I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn, I would highly recommend Textpattern for a simple site. My usual workflow is: 1. Mockups (PSD/Fireworks/paper) 2. xHTML/CSS templates 3. Integrate in Textpattern 4. Add salt Using any CMS requires a little bit of a shift in thinking, I suppose. However, the forums are relatively pleasant, and I'd be happy to help you with any questions that you have. Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS and site design
This is a pretty good resource for comparing CMSs. http://www.cmsmatrix.org/matrix Lisa Kerrigan Website Editor www.business.vic.gov.au Department Innovation, Industry and Regional Development Level 31, 121 Exhibition St Melbourne Vic 3000 Tel: 03 9651-9176 Fax: 03 9651-9988 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] m To Sent by: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc sgroup.org Subject Re: [WSG] CMS and site design 04/12/2007 05:08 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] roup.org This makes me think does anyone know of a really good comparison table, I have seen some that just have a few technical features listed but they actually are fairly useless for most concerns. Michael Horowitz wrote: What is it you like best about texpattern. I've done one Mambo site and really wasn't happy at all with they system once I learned it. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Rahul Gonsalves wrote: On 04-Dec-07, at 4:09 AM, Lyn Patterson wrote: I have never had to use a CMS and know very little about them. I have a client who wants to update his site himself and my hosting company supports Joomla. My question is: do I design the site in the normal way and then append the CMS or is the site designed within Joomla? Am I restricted in design options? Lyn, I would highly recommend Textpattern for a simple site. My usual workflow is: 1. Mockups (PSD/Fireworks/paper) 2. xHTML/CSS templates 3. Integrate in Textpattern 4. Add salt Using any CMS requires a little bit of a shift in thinking, I suppose. However, the forums are relatively pleasant, and I'd be happy to help you with any questions that you have. Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development, Government of Victoria, Victoria, Australia. This e-mail and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not distribute reproduce this e-mail or the attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify us by return e-mail. ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
