Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
On 9/2/09 07:45, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: How can CSS overflow replace div style=clear:both;/div? See http://www.ejeliot.com/blog/59 -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: On 9/2/09 07:45, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: How can CSS overflow replace div style=clear:both;/div? See http://www.ejeliot.com/blog/59 Thanks, but I find the extra DIV no more objectionable than the hackery and extra CSS described in that article. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
Isn't CSS about seperating presentation from content? You apply it once in your CSS as opposed to multiple times in your HTML. In actual fact, if you're only developing for IE6+, Firefox 2+, Webkit Browsers, Opera, you only need the overflow:auto; usually. -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Chris F.A. Johnson Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: On 9/2/09 07:45, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: How can CSS overflow replace div style=clear:both;/div? See http://www.ejeliot.com/blog/59 Thanks, but I find the extra DIV no more objectionable than the hackery and extra CSS described in that article. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
On 9/2/09 02:44, Gerard Hynes (Gmail) wrote: I'm not expert about screen readers, but I did run a site I upgraded through JAWS with some interesting results. The site had alot of pnbsp;/p due to the CMS they were using and JAWS would translate this to/speak out blank which wasn't ideal. Am not sure if it would do the same forp/p ordiv/div ordiv /. Precise behavior will vary with publisher styling of the DOM, platform, browser (and version), screen reader (and version), user configuration, and the commands used when reading that part of the page. For example, JAWS 10 has a concept of blank lines. It will read out blank as you step through a document if you come to something that matches that concept. The following variations: pbar/p pbaz/p p style=margin: 0;padding: 0;bar/p p style=margin: 0;padding: 0;baz/p pbar/p pnbsp;/p pnbsp;/p pbaz/p pbar/p div/div pbaz/p pbar/p div/div div/div pbaz/p are _all_ read: bar blank baz It also has a configuration setting for whether blank lines should be spoken with the Say All command. If this is off (as it is by default), then the above variations would all be read: bar baz -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
On a side note, there is a Firefox addon that reproduces JAWS-like output (in text), called Fangs. Link: http://www.standards-schmandards.com/projects/fangs/ - James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
Wow... Learned a lot on this topic. Actually I'm using overflow:auto but be careful, when zoom in the page sometimes that can break your layout. -- Regards, Juarez P. A. Filho Front-End Developer and Web Consultant http://juarezpaf.com The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams. Eleanor Roosevelt *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Web standards and portal technology
Good morning, Our company currently builds our secure websites on the IBM WebSphere platform using JavaServerPages. We are now just starting to do a proof of concept of the IBM Portal technology with the thought of moving the sites to portal. We are also considering switching from JSPs to JavaServerFaces. For the past few years, we have been trying very hard follow web standards and implement accessibility guidelines. What I'm wondering is if anyone has any information or experience with either Portal or JSF and how they impact both web standards and accessibility. As the interface designer (I write the HTML, CSS and Javascript and the developers write the Java), will I lose flexibility with Portal and /or JSF? I am just starting to learn about both topics so any information is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Juli Juli Waddell | Technical Analyst | Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan | ph: 416.730.6154 | web: www.otpp.com | email: jwadd...@otpp.com CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING This e-mail message, including any attachment(s), is confidential. If we sent this communication to you in error, please do not disclose it to anyone else or use the information in it. Please notify the sender of the transmission error and then delete our communication from your system without printing, copying or forwarding it. Thank you for your co-operation. AVERTISSEMENT CONCERNANT LE CARACTERE CONFIDENTIEL DE L'INFORMATION Le present courriel, y compris toute piece qui y est jointe, est confidentiel. Si nous vous avons envoye cette communication par erreur, nous vous prions de ne la divulguer a personne ni a utiliser l’information qu’elle contient. Veuillez informer l’expediteur de l’erreur de transmission et effacer ensuite notre communication de votre systeme sans l’imprimer, ni la copier ni la retransmettre. Nous vous remercions de votre cooperation. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
Ben, That's a great link. It also shows that an extra empty element, while it may be the easy way out works across the board without side effects of any kind. Yes it is mixing content and presentation. Joseph R. B. Taylor Designer/Developer --- Sites by Joe, LLC Clean, Simple Elegant Web Design Phone: (609) 335-3076 On Feb 9, 2009, at 3:23 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis bhawkesle...@googlemail.com wrote: On 9/2/09 07:45, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: How can CSS overflow replace div style=clear:both;/div? See http://www.ejeliot.com/blog/59 -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
While the nbsp; does represent nothing in a way, it is something and I would say that it's use would be slighty worse than a purely empty element. Joseph R. B. Taylor Designer/Developer --- Sites by Joe, LLC Clean, Simple Elegant Web Design Phone: (609) 335-3076 On Feb 9, 2009, at 5:47 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis bhawkesle...@googlemail.com wrote: On 9/2/09 02:44, Gerard Hynes (Gmail) wrote: I'm not expert about screen readers, but I did run a site I upgraded through JAWS with some interesting results. The site had alot of pnbsp;/p due to the CMS they were using and JAWS would translate this to/speak out blank which wasn't ideal. Am not sure if it would do the same forp/p ordiv/div ordiv /. Precise behavior will vary with publisher styling of the DOM, platform, browser (and version), screen reader (and version), user configuration, and the commands used when reading that part of the page. For example, JAWS 10 has a concept of blank lines. It will read out blank as you step through a document if you come to something that matches that concept. The following variations: pbar/p pbaz/p p style=margin: 0;padding: 0;bar/p p style=margin: 0;padding: 0;baz/p pbar/p pnbsp;/p pnbsp;/p pbaz/p pbar/p div/div pbaz/p pbar/p div/div div/div pbaz/p are _all_ read: bar blank baz It also has a configuration setting for whether blank lines should be spoken with the Say All command. If this is off (as it is by default), then the above variations would all be read: bar baz -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Joseph Taylor wrote: That's a great link. It also shows that an extra empty element, while it may be the easy way out works across the board without side effects of any kind. Yes it is mixing content and presentation. Many DIVs (and SPANs) are, in fact, used for presentation rather than semantic reasons. They exist only so that they can have styling applied to them. They don't provide any information about WHAT they contain. On Feb 9, 2009, at 3:23 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis bhawkesle...@googlemail.com wrote: On 9/2/09 07:45, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: How can CSS overflow replace div style=clear:both;/div? See http://www.ejeliot.com/blog/59 -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] WSG Digest
Dessde el 9 al 27 de Febrero me encontraré de vacaciones. Sus requerimientos relacionados con Soluciones Verticales por favor copiarlos a Natalia Lillo nali...@mapfre.cl Cordialmente, Rubén Valenzuela T. Jefe de proyectos soluciones verticales *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
Ben Lau wrote: Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your HTML document? I understand from that that you mean nested divs, for multiple backgrounds etc. A few extra divs means nothing other than extra weight, but I have managed to break a few older browsers by going to the extreme. This is extreme nesting... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_demo_float_03.html ...where not only the regular layout has deep nesting, but where there's also a demo consisting of deeply nested divs in the middle of the main content area. IE5.01 usually gives up on it - freezes during load, and this is caused by the demo. Later IE-versions don't seem to have real problems with it. Some older Opera versions tended to slow down and/or freeze up when the completely loaded page was scrolled, also caused by the demo. Haven't noticed any problems in 9.5+ versions. All browsers work ever so slightly harder than usual to get all pieces of the demo lined up during scrolling. So, it is possible to go too far :-) regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
