[WSG] future standards
Hi, I just watched a presentation from Robert O'Callahan last night and I think some of you would enjoy it. He goes over some of the new stuff that's coming out in Firefox and how Firefox plans to develop the web and web standards. It includes demos of their new typography support (ligatures and kerning), built-in video, canvas, offline, APNG, and other stuff. One of the really cool this is that Opera already supports a lot of this stuff too and I think Safari is working on it. So we should have 20% market penetration of this stuff pretty soon. A lot of it degrades pretty well too. The video's at http://www.meetup.co.nz/2007/06/21/video-june-meetup-robert-ocallahan-from-mozilla-on-firefox-3/ there's also a short writeup on it on the New Zealand Herald http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=5objectid=10446902 I've become a bit cynical with the W3C and their recent slowness to come out with workable specs (XHTML 2 anyone?). There has only been a very small advance in web technology in the last few years I've been in the industry. The WHATWG seems to be taking up the torch well. I hope the W3C can get in on it though. Alan Trick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?
I don't know if this is important to you, but you should really use GET, not POST. POST is supposed to be used when you're actually doing something to a page like submitting data. There, you're just getting a form. See http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec9.html Alan Trick Richard Ishida wrote: I put together a box that expands to accommodate larger text in translation, but I forgot that text on a submit button doesn't wrap :O Original: http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-charset.en.php#endlinks (see the box to the right) First problematic translation: http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-charset.fr.php#endlinks I want the text Send us a comment to look like a link, but trigger a POST, so I put the text in a submit button and styled it. Unfortunately the longer translations won't wrap that way. form action=/International/2007/06/surveyform.php method=post pinput class=interaction value=Send us a comment type=submit/p input name=docname value=/International/questions/qa-css-charset.en.php type=hidden input name=referer value=http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-charset.fr.php; type=hidden input name=lang value=en type=hidden /form Does anyone know a better way to do this? I was hoping to avoid using JavaScript, if possible. Cheers, RI Richard Ishida Internationalization Lead W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
I was just thinking about that and I don't think google.com (or for that matter - anything that company creates) would manage to get more than 1 star. On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 12:00 +1100, Peter Williams wrote: From: Herrod, Lisa Who really pays attention to the badges? Are the badges useful? really? surely an accessibility page on the site is more informative and helpful/useful/clear to those who are interested. We work this way because it's best practice and the right thing to do; it's faster and more efficient... I should point out that I don't use the W3C buttons on any sites, I try always to make sites comply with standards and to be functionally efficient. I wouldn't use any new rating or badge system either unless it was mandated. I think it would be amusing to see all the pretty but broken sites with no stars or 1 star though. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null
What browser are you using?
That should work on most of them, but Internet Explorer has a
mis-feature were it does something really wierd. I think what it does is
assigns elements with id's to variables with the id's name. I'm not sure
though, I haven't tested it out enough.
The consequence though is that if you try to assign an element to a
variable with the same name as that elements id, IE will fail to assign
the element (the variable will still be null) and it may give a really
cryptic complaint later on if you try to use it again.
Alan Trick
On Tue, 2005-12-06 at 00:58 +, Chris Lamberson wrote:
. . . .
var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');
var onoff = document.getElementById('onoff');
. . . .
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Re: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null
Nevermind, ignore what I said, Bert is right. Although IE may misbehave
as well, it seems pretty inconsitent and buggy.
On Tue, 2005-12-06 at 09:21 +0800, Bert Doorn wrote:
G'day
I was having some trouble finding out why, whenever I call for
document.getElementById(id), it returns null (even if there is a valid
id-matching element). Consider something simple, like this:
The javascript runs as the page loads. At that point, the
elements with the ids do not yet exist in the DOM tree (as they
are still to be loaded). You'll need to delay the script until
the page has loaded. Something like:
function init() {
var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');
var onoff = document.getElementById('onoff');
toggle.onmouseover = function() {
onoff.style.display = block
}
toggle.onmouseout = function() {
onoff.style.display = none
}
}
window.onload=init;
Regards
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Re: [WSG] Newcomers and Web Standards
I'm going to have to go with Lachlan on this one. IE has as much support for XHTML as it does for application/foo-bar. If I serve my application/foo-bar as text/plain, IE will display the page as plain text. If it 'looks' correct that is only a coincidence. More importantly IE's HTML parser is not just a standard SGML parser for certain cases. Try using a DTD and specifying extra entities. HTML has been broken because people did not follow the specs. Indeed, if browsers started treating entities properly there would be an increadible amount of pages broken for missuse of . If you want another potentially good thing gone bad from missuse you don't have to look any furthur than RSS and it's 9 (I think, but it could easily be higher) almost completely incompatible versions. And for each version there's people sending it with at least 3 different mime-types. Sometimes people escape they're encoding and sometimes they don't. It's no wonder that you'll often see lt;emgt; and such in rss headlines. Finally XHTML is XML that looks like HTML, not the other way around. I don't think it's a good idea to teach newcomers about XHTML until they have a fairly good grasp of what XML is - otherwise they'll just be doing glorified HTML with /'s at the end of empty elements. On Sat, 2005-12-03 at 09:50 -0500, Vlad Alexander wrote: [Lachlan wrote: IE has no native support for XHTML at all.] So it's not native support but there _is_ support. How can you tell if there is support, well, you do test-cases. If one can produce a test-case of valid XHTML served as HTML to IE and IE parses it correctly, then there is support. Why should we care if IE use an SGML or an XML parser to process the markup? The main thing is that markup is parsed correctly and there is no data loss. How can IE do this reliably? Because valid XHTML markup written to comparability guidelines is a sub-set of HTML. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Konquerer becomes the 2nd browser to pass Acid2
While I share you feellings, I also understand why Acid2 wasn't high on the list of the Mozilla folks. The test itself isn't the be all and end all of stadards. I personally think that building SVG support into firefox was a much more important goal and I can't wait till Konqi and Safari support it as well. Alan Trick On Thu, 2005-12-01 at 12:45 +1000, Jason Foss wrote: Safari was the first wasn't it? Hope a Windows browser manages that soon... :( On 30/11/05, James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all Just read this via KDE dot news (http://dot.kde.org/1133270759/) Konqueror is the second major web browser to pass the Acid2 CSS test, ahead of Firefox and Internet Explorer http://www.kde.org/announcements/visualguide-3.5.php This was done in June 2005 but was only ported to a stable branch released today. Bravo Konqi and a good day for better standards support. Both Konq and Safari share a similar codebase (KHTML : http://khtml.info ). Cheers James __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Javascript dependant devices
Text browsers: there are a few like links that are exeptions to this rule. Normal browsers with Javascript turned off. You might be surprises how many people do that. Internet Explorer has a serious JS vulnerability so it would make sense for those users to turn it off. Search Engines Rendering engines in email clients. I would assume that most have it turned off by default. An exception might be Outlook as it has a pretty low security level. Any other robot crawling your site for some reason or another. Depending one the situation - a particular peice of javascript might cause issues with some browsers. Particularly people using things like greasemonkey. As far as mobile devices are conserned - most of them do not. Trying to implement javascript in a mobile device is quite difficult. There are some though that are working on it. I don't know if there in use though. Alan Trick On Wed, 2005-11-30 at 12:44 +1100, Herrod, Lisa wrote: can anyone point me to an up to date list of browsers and devices that either do not support Javascript or whose functionality is impeded by JS? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] firefox 1.5 is official
On Tue, 2005-11-29 at 15:44 -0800, Ted Drake wrote: Firefox has just officially released 1.5 http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/releases/1.5.html It's time to upgrade. If you haven't been using the beta, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Ted Great. I hope they fixed the copy-and-paste issues in linux. Those were really anoying because they would lock up your whole screen. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Validators
On Thu, 2005-11-24 at 12:42 +1100, Geoff Pack wrote: Does anyone know of a downloadable CSS validator (other than the W3C one) that I can install on an local server to batch check files on my local network? We currently use the WDG html validator, but their CSS validator is not available for download. Cheers Geoff Pack Is there a problem with this: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/DOWNLOAD.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Validators
On Thu, 2005-11-24 at 12:42 +1100, Geoff Pack wrote: Does anyone know of a downloadable CSS validator (other than the W3C one) that I can install on an local server to batch check files on my local network? We currently use the WDG html validator, but their CSS validator is not available for download. Cheers Geoff Pack Is there a problem with this one: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/DOWNLOAD.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page break up
On Mon, 2005-11-28 at 00:25 -0400, Jay Gilmore wrote: Lori, I am going to suggest that you download Firefox or Mozilla to develop with. You will find that IE is too forgiving and allows errors to fall through the cracks by trying to render the page vs. not parsing invalid code. IE is forgiving! But it just murdered all my poor, innocent floats :( Alan Trick __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: University textbook or other resources?
Since your at a univeristy you might as well take the time to go over the some of the more theoretical stuff. This is particlularly a good ida if your talking to CS students who are more interested in that kind of thing. Probably one of most important things is Semantics. Paricularly the separation of style and content, although semantics covers a lot more too. Of course don't over do it (join the www-html list on w3.org for examples :P) but I htink it will give the students a firm foundation for a lot of the whys behind how things are done. As far as server side languages like PHP, JSP, and the other abominations - I think that probably belongs in another course. Mainly because there is a lot of stuff that needs to be covered here (particularly security issues). If the students haven't done at least some programming you might find that either 1) it ends up becoming a second Introduction to Programming 101 or 2) the students won't have a clue as to what they're doing and will get more confused because there is an extra layer they don't understand. Alan Trick On Sat, 2005-11-26 at 00:06 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are two magazines out of the UK that sometimes offer tutorials that you can use in the classrom. One is called WebDesigner and the other is called Practical Web Projects http://www.paragon.co.uk/wd/index.htm http://www.paragon.co.uk/pwp/index.htm If you want to teach web design from a standards perspective, there are three books listed in the right hand column of my blog at http://www.netmix.com/wordpress, along with other books that I singled out from Amazon that might be useful to you. One is Jeffrey Zeldman's Designing with Web Standards. I also recommend starting to look into Open Source products, like Typo3, Mambo and other Open Source Content Management systems. Web designers need to learn how to design around open source module macros. For example, Movable Type, Wordpress and other blog systems are all open source CMS tools. A web designer is going to need to think about how to create templates based on the functionality of these CMS systems. The ones I mentioned are php/mySql, but there are other that are Java, ASP and JSP as well. A good resource to get open source CMS tools is opensourcecms.com. I have yet to find a book that teaches you how to actually think about design, fontography and layout, then bring you into HTML production, then bring you along into database integration. Since all these methods are disparate from each other, but depend on each other, most books usually focus on how to's rather than to think creatively. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but believe me, I've been looking. In the local Barnes Noble, there have been many books published that you can find in the Graphic Design section, which showcase high end web design. That may also be a place to look as well. Tony Z. Laura Carlson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 11/26/2005, 01:04:35 AM: I've been asked if there are useful university-focused textbooks or other resources suitable for teaching accessible web design. As Lloyd and Matthew mentioned Joe Clark's Building Accessible Websites, New Riders Publishing, 2002 is well worth considering. I have been using it for the web accessibility classes that I teach. The Clark book does not assume the reader understands the basics of web accessibility. I specifically chose it because of that and because it goes beyond simply repeating the party line from the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) or Section 508. That is one of the purposes of the classes - to not just read the specifications, but actively engage them. Challenge, dissect, understand, and learn what makes the most sense. Also Joe put the whole book online[1] so if students don't want to purchase it for the class they don't have too. However, the soft cover version of the online book has screen shots and images. The online version does not. The Web Design Reference [2] is a huge online mega-reference (over 3,000 links) of information and articles about web design and development that you might find useful. It has a full section on books [3] as well as online resources (accessibility, CSS, usability, web standards, and many related topics are covered). You might also find the Web Design Update Newsletter [4] helpful. It is a plain text email digest that typically goes out once a week as an adjunct to the site. All the Best, Laura [1] http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/ [2] http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/ [3] http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/books#access [4] http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdevlist ___ Laura L. Carlson Information Technology Systems and Services University of Minnesota Duluth Duluth, MN 55812-3009 http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign
Re: [WSG] xhtml doctypes and charsets
My personal feeling is that you should be using the HTML 4.01 doctype. Your not going to achive anything by using an XHTML doctype and it's technically invalid. Remember *every User Agent will (and should) treat your code as HTML*. If you put a skirt on a man it won't make him a woman. Weather or not a page is HTML/XTHML is determined entirely by the mime-type. Also there's nothing wrong with using HTML. I think the standards people have gotten a bit confussed on this one. HTML is a W3C recomendation - it's been around for a while and will still be around for a long time - there's not reason to worry about future proof with HTML. The other thing is that I don't think anybody besides the odd bot ever looks at those meta tags. That information belongs in your http headers. Alan Trick On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 10:46 -0400, The Snider's Web wrote: Hi Everyone, I am going to delurk to ask a question :) I have been using html 4.01 transitional on my sites and have slowly branched out to xhtml. However, I remember that there has been some discussion on other lists about the 'dangers' of using xhtml. Here is what I have seen used, what would be the pluses and minuses of using this combo? !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd; html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8 / I usually use this charset: meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Any links or advice would be much appreciated. Cheers Lisa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS and PHP
Another issue: this may be caused by ussing sessions. When PHP manages sessions using GET queries as opposed to Cookies it might do this to your. What it does is appends PHPSESSION=w/e to the end of your urls, by default the is *not* escaped. There's a way (in php.ini I think) to fix it. Check http://php.net/session for details. Btw, I think talking about server side processing is kind of OT on this list, but if you have any more questions about PHP and such feel free to email me off-list. Alan Trick Bert Doorn wrote: Tim Burgan wrote: Just a quick note that'll help: In the URL, the special characters (such as ampersands, question marks, etc) need to be converted to html character entities. Question marks do not need to be converted. Regards ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Design_Time_Lock
I think thedailywtf.com needs a seperate section for web developers. Btw, googling 'Design_Time_Lock' gives some interesting results. Robert Nicolson wrote: This is another Visual Studio .Net designer related question I think, I have had a quick google, but would anyone be willing to back me up that 'Design_Time_Lock' is not a valid html or css attribute. I am sure it is about as valid as'Design_Time_Drag_And_Drop' is but someone on my team insists on placing it in code that is about to leave. tia, Robert blah blah blah . ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] PNG Question
Terrence Wood wrote: Patrick H. Lauke said: IE does not natively support 24 bit alpha transparency on PNGs without some seriously hacky workarounds. ...which is to say that IE *does* support 8-bit transparency (i.e. same as gif). That is about the only reason to ever use the GIF any more. Apart from that GIF is pretty much useless. Everthing it can do PNG does better. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web page check
This tool might help: http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A//www.jimjacobe.com/ClassDescriptions.html Alan Trick GALLAGHER Kevin S wrote: First off the site was designed before Firefox and was my first site. Now I have been seeing things were Firefox is displaying something’s differently then IE which is fine except one thing. On http://www.jimjacobe.com/ClassDescriptions.html I have listed classes for an instructor, items 2, 4 and 5 (some others farther down have the same issue) have text positioned incorrectly in Firefox but look correct in IE, specifically the content starting “An” in the first two problem areas. If someone can look at this and tell me what needs to be done to fix this. Not necessarily looking for the fix code wise but more of is this a syntax issue or something I simple did wrong and IE is doing it’s thing to fix things. Thanks for taking the time to look at this page and if possible provide some feed back Kevin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE team says no to hacks
If you don't use CSS hacks you have 2 options. 1. Avoid CSS that is buggy in a browser. 2. Use other hacks like conditional comments. (Conditional comments *are* hacks, there just intentional ones) Number 1 is simply not an option unless your willing to look like useit.com or something. Number 2 is hardly any better because when future browsers come out either they will have fixed their CSS implementations (and then life is happiness and glee) or they won't. With CSS it's likely that you will have to do touchups but with conditional comments you have to write another css file all together. Also I don't want an M$ bitching session either. IE7 may not be perfect, but it's a step towards interopability and standards (which is a really big thing for Microsoft). I think we should encourage it all we can. Peter Firminger wrote: If you've gone against all sane advice and used CSS hacks then you knew exactly what you were in for with future browsers and potential problems. I don't want to see an M$ bitch session develop here while Microsoft are seemingly trying very hard do the right thing (at last). Obviously we have to wait and see what the final release does. At that point, I really hope you're (general) not going to charge your customers if you have to fix up bugs (hacks) that you knowingly induced into their websites if you didn't make it clear to them at the time that hacking may require rectification in the future. Sorry for the smug told you so, but many people including myself have made this very clear over the whole life of WSG. You only have yourself to blame. Peter previously comment=I'm really sick of html emails on this list I second :) It sounds more like they are taking a stand against the designers who tried to work around those buggy problems. They aren't cleaning up their own act, just making it harder to hack around them. IE 7 still has some of the quirky implementations that make older versions of IE so difficult to design for. /previously ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser Stats
Helmut Granda wrote: . . . it seems like FF is loosing terrain, is w3schools accurate? No they're not, in fact I think there is a note about how they are no accurate on the page there. Or is there anyother place that I can check what the general public is using. There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. While you might be able to get a bit of an idea from looking at different sources you should take everything with a grain of salt. Even on the best sites you probably looking at _at least_ 5% to 10% margin of error, so a change in 2% is pretty much meaningless. Rick Faaberg wrote: On Mac, I think FF pretty well s*cks Very true, I've used firefox on my sister's Mac and it's a pig. It was still better than safari for me because of the extentions and other stuff I can't live without, but a pig nonetheless. Apparently the've done a lot to fix that in 1.5, well see. In my experience Firefox runs a lot better on linux, and even faster on Windows. A lot of the stuff that firefox does on linux it could really improve. I think the reason that it's like that is because most of the main developers use windows and they're trying to appeal to the mainstream (i.e. Windows users). I assume the case is the same for Mac, only worse. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Redesign of a danish library website - help/comments
Web page designed by clueless person. Film at 11. Personally I think both designs have issues. The font size is too small on the first one, and in the second one its a good size but it overflows eveywhere. And don't go in to the code behind it all. Kids these days :P Felix Miata wrote: Soren Johannessen wrote: Next week bibliotek.dk [Denmark] (url http://bibliotek.dk) is going to redesign their website In bibliotek.dk you will find records of all items published in Denmark as well as all items found in the Danish public research libraries. There is a beta version ready http://proto.bibliotek.dk/ - This was a chock/surprice to see such a bad redesign in 2005 from a web standards point of view. I am going to write a review article (sorry this article is going to be in Danish) what's wrong with this new redesign.My major findings and what is wrong is [...] You're right about having a lot wrong. This shows just a few problems (it is worse farther down, or when zoomed): http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/soren1.png The text is too small, and it often doesn't fit into the spaces allotted for it. The text is (too small) via relative sizing, but the space for it to fit is frequently set with px for container height or line-height, and overflow: hidden to go with it. The result is a lot of hidden or overlapping text when the user's browser is using uncommon settings. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Is a colon after a form label necessary?
Yes, but it also depends on the context. Remember that the input does not nessisarily follow the label. And in some situations, a colon might not fit (visually). Alan Trick Zach Inglis wrote: It makes things easier to associate in my opinion. At the end of the day its just punctuation... like using a full stop to separate content. It may help too when the CSS is turned off. Zach Inglis ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE team says no to hacks
I personally think that this will be unrealistic for the time being. But it's nice to hear that the IE team is starting to take a stand agains the problems their buggy software created. http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/10/12/480242.aspx ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Re: Date verification in HTML pages
Google indexes web sites, so the information that they have would be dated to when the contents were chached. For example if you google 'baseball' you will get a list of results. If you read it you will notice that they have a date (all the ones dated were cached on 9 Oct 2005). The ones near the bottom aren't dated, but if you look at google's cache, it has the date listed on it. As far as the websites themselves. HTTP headers have a category for 'Last-Modified' and the same thing can also be done using a meta / tag (however, this is rare and poor practice). Unfortunatly the Last-Modified header it usually isn't useful for what your looking for because many site generate dynamic content. (I can give a longer explaination if you want it). Ultimately it's up to the web developer to provide that information in a way that make sense for the application. Blogs, for example, will include the date of writting and possibly information on any edits (ins and del would be useful for this). It's something that usability people can push, but the w3 can't really enforce it in any meaningful way. Alan Trick Vignesh Mathivanan wrote: Hello, I have a question that has been in my mind for a while now. As a novice web developer, I frequently rely on the web to provide me with technical help/guide on various topics to help build web applications. During these occasions I find it increasingly difficult to verify the date of last modification of the web document returned by Google search. This is very important as the end user needs a way to ensure that those web pages providing content on issues that change over time are up to date. Is there a credible way of verifying this date or if not could it be enforced by the consortium in future HTML versions? Thank you, Regards, VIGNESH ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
1. Why use spans and not divs when divs are already block level
elements. No need for CSS styling.
2. The main compelling reason to use br's is because semanically that
is the right way to do it. Not a big deal I though because a line
break is a fairly semantically neurtal thing anyways.
Just my thoughts.
Alan Trick
Jon Tan wrote:
Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of
Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here:
http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view
My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual
effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then
style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically
useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat:
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
Jon Tan
Grow Collective
www.gr0w.com
- Original Message -
From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below
I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:
pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
The Secretarybr /
Your Clubbr /
PO Box 999br /
Anytown VIC 3000/p
How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?
If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?
Hope Stewart
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Re: [WSG] Stop the Presses! Announcing the supercool search plugi n!
Not much to wory about though. You can download the file open it with a simple text editor and read it. === standardistas.src = # Rollyo Search - Sherlock Plug-in SEARCH name=Standardistas description = Standards-based web development resources method=GET action=http://rollyo.com/search.html; update=http://rollyo.com/tools/mozsearch/src.html/rollyo-4080-4886.src; updateCheckDays=3 input name=sourceid value=Mozilla-search INPUT NAME=q user INPUT NAME=uid VALUE=4080 INPUT NAME=sid VALUE=4886 /SEARCH BROWSER update=http://mycroft.mozdev.org/plugins/standardistas.src; updateIcon=http://mycroft.mozdev.org/plugins/standardistas.png; updateCheckDays=5 === with out all the ='s. No spyware here. Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fake Google Toolbars Spreading Identity Theft Beware of guests bearing Google Toolbars. That's because a series of phishing probes are making the rounds that deliver a faked version. Install the real-looking software, and your credit cards and other personal information are captured, then transmitted to a shadowy group of criminals. We've got details on how the scam works, and what to look out for, in our security alert. Beware Fake Toolbars: http://ct.eletters.whatsnewnow.com/rd/cts?d=181-544-1-278-911239-26861-0-0-0-1 http://ct.eletters.whatsnewnow.com/rd/cts?d=181-544-1-278-911239-26861-0-0-0-1 On 10/6/05, *Buddy Quaid* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Weird, i cant get to the site...i think it's blocking my ISP or something. I tried ping and nothing, i could trace and ping from an outside website but not from my machine. Buddy Drake, Ted C. wrote: Hi buddy The link got mangled, try www.tdrake.net http://www.tdrake.net/ it's the first post. Ted *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Buddy Quaid *Sent:* Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:52 PM *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Stop the Presses! Announcing the supercool search plugi n! Your website will not pull up for me. Buddy Drake, Ted C. wrote: I didn't have room for all of them but I've added most of the sites below. Ted *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *bit *Sent:* Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:15 PM *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Stop the Presses! Announcing the supercool search plugin! hi all, maybe some suggestions for the ff-toolbar ... http://www.sitepoint.com/ http://digital-web.com/ http://cssplay.co.uk/ http://tanfa.co.uk/ http://www.stylegala.com/ http://kottke.org/ http://www.wpdfd.com/ nice greetings from vienna :) 2005/10/6, Drake, Ted C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi All As many of you may have seen, I created a search plugin for Alistapart.com http://Alistapart.com that allows you to search their posts for information. That was just the tip of the iceberg. I really wanted to create something that would allow me to search all of my favorite coding resources without having to wade through outdated posts, spam, etc in a typical search. Chris Pederick comes to the rescue today with a post about Rollyo, a personalized search engine portal. Well, today, I created a standards-based web portal and then made a cool plugin. Go to my web site: http://www.tdrake.net/standards-based-web-development-resources-made-even-ea http://www.tdrake.net/standards-based-web-development-resources-made-even-ea sier/ to download the standardista plugin. You can now search all of these sites from the comfort of your firefox toolbar: * alistapart.com http://alistapart.com * w3.org http://w3.org * simplebits.com http://simplebits.com * meyerweb.com http://meyerweb.com * stuffandnonsense.co.uk http://stuffandnonsense.co.uk * shauninman.c... * splintered.co.uk http://splintered.co.uk * stopdesign.com http://stopdesign.com * andybudd.com http://andybudd.com * jasonsantamaria.com http://jasonsantamaria.com * accessify.com http://accessify.com * clagnut.com http://clagnut.com * 456bereastreet.com http://456bereastreet.com * quirksmode.org http://quirksmode.org * tantek.com http://tantek.com * positioniseverything.net http
Re: [WSG] Top Ten Web Design Mistakes - yeah, right!
The problem with testing has been argued about. The fact that Nielsen only surveyed his subscribers, most of whom are quite different from Joe User, probably provided different result than if more 'average' testing was done. However, I don't really think that's a bad thing. I think it's actually better that way. The greatest issue that I have with usability testing and such is that they rely on the flawed assumption that the users know what they want. Don't fool youself. From my experience, if you ask Joe User what an Office program should look like, he'll describe what MS Office looks like, and if you ask what a search engine should look he'll say (in more or less words) like Google. This happens a *lot* in linux, so much so that usability testing in linux essentially means 'trying to make it look like Windows'. Which is terrible because Linux is not Windows, and to try to make them the same would be a disservice to Linux. The same thing happens on the web (although less so). I read though the report and I saw this in serveral places. Particularly in the search section. Why does everyones search form need to be like Google's? Why do the search results need to be on a seperate page? Having a javascript search function that brough real-time result may lead to an increase in functionality (as long as you have a proper system set up for users without javascript). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
James Bennett wrote: On 10/3/05, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most Linux systems have neither Verdana nor Arial installed, at least not by default. True, but these days nearly every Linux distribution ships the free Bitstream Vera font set, which includes a sans-serif with metrics similar to Verdana. Also, the core web fonts are typically available as an easily-installed package for most distributions, which will provide Verdana and other fonts. I've found that the following works well for providing compatibility to Linux users (and as a full-time Linux user for a number of years, I can personally attest to its effectiveness): Verdana, Bitstream Vera Sans, Lucida Sans, sans-serif I would assume that the most linux users either 1) have 'core web fonts' installed or 2) don't mind having web pages that look really weird. Browsing the web without that package will get you lots of issues all over the place (even with it I stumble across websites every once in a while with unreadibly small font-sizes. That said, I have Verdana on my Linux box (and it looks way better than Poley's windows(?) version does). The other important thing to note is that the vast majority of users either can't scale fonts because they're using a broken coughIE/cough browser or because the don't know how (or even that it was an option). It's very important to have readable defaults. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
Because it's an ugly bastard of Helvetica? I'm no typographist but my sister absolutely hates that font. However, Windows donsn't really have any nice looking fonts anyways. T. R. Valentine wrote: On 04/10/05, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMO arial isn't so hot for the web anyway. OK, I'd like to hear some opinions. A lot of the pages I produce need, for technical reasons, a Unicode font (especially the 0370–03FF, 0400–04FF, 0500–052F, 1F00–1FFF, and 2000–206F ranges). I find 'Arial Unicode MS' very handy for this. Plus, it is a sans-serif style which is generally regarded as superior to a serif font for screen reading. A typical CSS entry for me is: font-family:'Arial Unicode MS','Everson Mono Unicode', 'Palatino Linotype',Code2000,'TITUS Cyberbit Basic','Athena Roman', Athena; (I know I don't have a generic, but that's because there really isn't a suitable generic.) So my questions are: what is wrong with Arial (Arial Unicode MS in particular)? are there better font alternatives? (I generally provide links for downloading these fonts because there is not a reliable means of providing fonts to web users.) I would very much appreciate suggestions. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Review: hopkinsprogramming.net/
On http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/products/vbdoodle/ the text in the 'VB DOODLE' box is overfollowing. This is on Firefox 1.0.7 Gentoo Linux. My guess is that this is an issue with fonts because my default font is not that ugly monster (:P) known as Times New Romans. Fonts tend to be quite an issue because the fonts on one system are often different (in size and style) that the ones on another. It's not a serious issue, but if you could avoid fixed heights that would be nice. Hopkins Programming wrote: Hey guys, If you wouldn't mind checking out my website, http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/, I would greatly appreciate it. There is one thing in particular I would like help with - On the homepage, the 3 large images are divs w/background images, and display:block hyperlinks. It works fine, but it fails WAI WCAG 1.0 Priority 2 Checkpoint 13.1 - Create link phrases http://webxact2.watchfire.com/themes/standard-en-us/help/HIDD_WDContent_G34.html that make sense when read out of context. I know it can be fixed by changing my p's to span's and moving them inside the hyperlinks, but is that something I should do? The text in the p's is good, but I don't think it's worthy of being in a hyperlink. Would it be best to create a short sentence to go in the hyperlinks that briefly describes the page the user will get when the link is clicked, or ? Any assistance on this matter would be greatly appreciated. You're welcome to poke around for other problems (I know have a few sementic naming issues in my CSS) because I always like feedback. Thanks a bundle guys! --Zachary Hopkins * Reference Links: Website: http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/ W3C WCAG: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ -- == The best way to predict the future is to invent it. [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Check
Interesting, Not really a problem with your site, but I just checked the headers of the top 4 sites and they had Content-Type: text/html. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi guys, please check my new experiment. A Xhtml Websites List Directory. Sorry but is in italian language. http://www.gizax.it/vtre/xwl.php?pag=0 cheers Daniel http://www.gizax.it ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Extreme Tracker and xhtml
I'm not quite sure what's going on, but the fact that they use document.write raises big flags: EXd.write(img src='http:\/\/e0.ex...lots of nasty mess...dth='1'); document.write is not part of the DOM standard and will does not work on XML pages (including XHTML). Your page is being sent as HTML so that shouldn't be the problem, but regardless, that javascript is terrible by modest standards. My suggestion is that you install php (or get a host that supports it) and make your own. Lyme Info wrote: Hi again, I made some more changes since posting, and I thought I had it working. It seemed it was a line-wrap problem. I found that I could turn off word-wrap in my text editor. I hadn’t realized how important that was for javascript. I made the change for the medical site, and it started to work! I then went to the index page and removed the code from the splintered site. I copied and pasted the code exactly from medical, changed the 3 spots for user ID, and made sure the java code was on one line. I viewed the source code to confirm. But it isn't working. I thought it was just an extreme tracker delay, but I've now waited quite a while and it still isn't tracking. (It tracks me so I can easily test that) I keep looking at the code and am baffled. Anyway, I felt I should say something since I changed things since my previous post and the code won't appear as I previously described. Cheryl *//* *//* *//* */Lyme Info /*wrote: Through a google search, I came across the discussions on this list about making the extreme tracker compliant, but I am still having a tough time getting it to work. http://www.lymeinfo.net/medical.html http://www.lymeinfo.net http://www.lymeinfo.net/ Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Review: hopkinsprogramming.net/
I just looked at the page in a text browser (links) and there's a couple
of anoying issues.
1. This is not bad, but a bit of an anoyance. There is a notice about
not having javascript. This appears at the top of the page. I don't
think this is really neccisary. If you really want it, put it at the
bottom of the page.
2. The links on the front page for VBdoodle and Web Design don't show up
because of the lack of CSS support. Mabye this was intentional, but it
would be nice if you had it like it was for the third box or something.
3. The links for validation appear right at the top. I understand why
they're there (and it looks pretty cool in css browsers). I don't know
if there would be any simple way to have this put at the bottom for
text-browsers, but it would be nice if you could because they're not the
most important links on your site.
For the most part though, things look fine though. It sure beats most of
the sites on the internet.
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
Hopkins Programming wrote:
@All - Still need suggestions on the WAI conundrum.
http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/
Well, I think you should definitely put some descriptive text in those
links, as my text-only browsers can't even see that there are links
there at the moment. Don't think that qualifies for 'AAA'...
Something like
- 'learn more about wb doodle'
- 'learn more about web design'
would solve that.
An 'off screen' technique will make it work with CSS off.
.off-screen {position: absolute; top: -9000px; left: -9000px;}
However, since such a link-text should also work as a substitute for an
alt-attribute--with images off, maybe better leave the text on screen
and use a variant of http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_chaos_14.html
Should satisfy WAI-checkpoints and will work no matter what -- and may
even be useful for visitors.
Georg
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Re: [WSG] Page templates submitted for review (discard previous mail)
Yes. It's not as evil as some things, but it is certainly bad practice. You'd be much better off using HTML 4.01 (which is, last time I checked a valid spec). Julián Landerreche wrote: As long as I know, you shouldnt serve XHTML 1.1 as text/html. You should serve it as text/xml, or application/xhtml+xml I read it may be... dangerous! But, of course, I dont really understand what I'm talking about I'm just repeating what I have read on several sites. Julián Christian Montoya wrote: ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS class and id naming conventions
If at all possible don't use class names that describe the way something looks, but more what the thing actually is. I find that using names that discribe the style of something will almost always come back to bite you. And depending on how large you project is, it can bite pretty hard. I was working on a job for a company about 6 months (I was still very new to web design then). The original thing they had there was a mess, with FONT tags and other such ungodly tags up the wazoo (it was the unfortunate result of someone useing Frontpage). So I converted it all to the XHTML 1.1 specs, but in the process I used a couple of classes like 'brownbox' and 'bluebox'. Well it turned out that those were poor color choices, so it turned out that my 'brownbox' was actually greenish, and my 'bluebox' was grey, and several other things that had followed the same wort of thing. So in order to keep any subsequent developers from going crazy I had to change all the class names. Which was a lot of work given the aweful mess that ASP is. I also agreen that human-readable URLs are a great idea; however, the implementation of that sort of thing is very dependant on what your working with, so unfotunatly it's difficult to give any guides. Alan Trick Nick Gleitzman wrote: James Oppenheim wrote: I tend to use underscore for class and id, try very much to stay away from two word file names. This is a question (discussion?) that comes up every couple of months here on the list - ultimately, I reckon you'll get as many 'conventions' in use as you've offered suggestions. I think it's very much down to the individual - and the ease with which other members of a team (or inheritors of legacy code) can work with your css. I believe there are strong arguments for creating filenames that result in logical, human-readable URLs. Underscores in class id names are not a good idea - some browsers don't read them properly, and the styles aren't rendered properly, if at all... from memory, an early Safari was one such. HTH N ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Printing Footers
IIRC, position:fixed will do that for you, i.e.
#footer{
position:fixed;
bottom:0; right:0; left:0; height: 2em;
}
would create a 2em footer at the bottom of every page; however I don't
know how well this is supported. Internet Explorer certainly doesn't
support it.
Krassy wrote:
Hi everyone,
Is it possible to get repeated footers to print using
XHTML/CSS? I asked this question on the CSS-discuss
mailing list, but got no response.
I've done some research[*] and experimentation, but
haven't been able to get a footer to print
bottom-aligned on every page.
[*]
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/alaprintstyles
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=PrintingHeaders
Any and all suggestions and ideas are much
appreciated...
Thanks,
Krassy
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Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks
I think the future of CSS is not in hack or in conditional comments but in using standard CSS. At the current time this isn't really possible because of Internet Explorer, but from what I've heard about IE7 they plan to do a fair amount of fixing up. Things won't be perfect and support for nice stuff will still be lagging severly, but at least there will be some platform that we can work off of. CSS was designed to be backwards compatible, so as long as you're not doing something that would create an accessibilty issue (like things dissapearing) it would be quite alright to server modern CSS to the browsers that support it and the ones that don't will properly fall back. Of course, I'm basing this on the idea that IE7 will be up to the hype that the guys at msdn are saying, and that MS won't sit down and abandon the web for another half-decade. Drake, Ted C. wrote: I think the future of CSS is not in hacks but looking seriously into using the conditional comments. I’m saying this as someone that is trying to figure out the best approach for retrofitting older conversions. Conditional comments are IE statements that say if ie6 use this additional CSS file, if IE5Mac, use this style sheet, if neither: ignore this statement. IE7 is going to throw a curveball worthy of a World Series ring. While it is easy and more convenient to throw a * html statement into a CSS, we need to start seriously looking at separating our hacks into different style sheets and intelligently using filters and conditional comments to refer to them. I think the approach this person is suggesting is very 2005, we need to look at 2006 answers. I’m dreading the idea of inserting conditional comments into the head sections of html pages. I’d like to insert it into the main.css file that imports more sophisticated styles. I have been overwhelmed lately and haven’t been able to test any answers to this. Does anyone have a suggestion? Imagine teasing someone that their CSS is “So 2005!” Did I just coin a term? Has Joe Clark already coined this one? Ted ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css variables
Hassan Schroeder wrote:
Terrence Wood wrote:
Constants and variables are not going to part of CSS any time soon, so you
will need some kind of server side solution ...
AFAIK they all use seom form of regex to do the replacement
Well, no -- I frequently use variables in style sheets built in JSP,
especially early on in development. And there it's simple Expression
Language (EL) variable substitution, so something like this:
a:hover, a:focus { color: ${contrastColor}; }
can be evaluated per site, per session, or even per request, making
it really easy to test, tune, and/or customize...
FWIW!
You can also do almost the same thing with PHP just do the following:
?php
$variable=do your declarations here;
$bg=#fff
$h1=100;
$w1=20em;
header('Content-Type: text/css');
echo
html{
color:#123;
background:$bg;
}
#header{
height:{$h1}px;
width:$w1;
}
;
?
note that it's important that there are double quotes on the echo and
not single.
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Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter!
The whole idea that a float *even can* be sematically incorrect is absurd. Floating is simply a style, the way something is positioned and it has no implyed semantic meaning whatsoever. That said, it's an honour to know that were popular enough to warrant trolls ;) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What a laugh. I especially love this quote... Since when are using Floats for page-level layout, semantically correct? Floats are designed to float images within the context of a paragraph. Yet many designs that are supposedly Web Standards compliant, use floats to create page divisions. Here is just one very quick source from the W3C that justifies the use of floats for positioning of a box of content... http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visuren.html#floats and goes on to say what the float property can be applied to... http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visuren.html#float-position So I guess his claim that floats are designed to float images within the context of a paragraph may need a little more research. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsl etter!
Just stay on this mailing-list and you'll hear *plenty* of points of view's :) p.s. It's good netiquite when your sending emails to a mailing list, to use text-only (no html nastyness). In Mozilla Thunderbird you can set this by going to Tools Options Coposition 'Send and HTML options' - Send Options and add webstandardsgroup.org to the list of plain text domains. I don't know how to to it for MS Outlook, but you should really stop using Outlook (for your own safty) anyways. Good Luck Craig Rippon wrote: Thanks for the comments everyone. I am a somewhat overwhelmed Web Development college student and was keen to hear your points of view ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility
Actually, Tatham was kind of right in a way. It is possible to get ASP.NET to give you compliant code. However, compliance and web standards are *not* the same thing. Compliance is only part of web standards (and one of the smallest IMHO). Take for example the Internet explorer blog on msdn.com http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/. The search form on the could be completely valid markup (it's actually not because the id names start with an underscore, but it could be). However, the code there is emphatically *not* standard. Essentially they are trying to make a link to something that a sumit input or button element should be doing. To cover up this unholy substitution, they use a bunch of javascript. Of course the form is completely broken to users without javascript. Alan Trick csslist wrote: wasnt bashing m$ was saying a FACT, you shouldnt have to use a 3rd party tool to get it right and your server-side lang shouldnt destroy your markup without user error. see other reply, the guy was right!! It does obviously favors ie and last i check ie and compliance werent on the same page. whats next? You gunna say frontpage writes complient code (if you know what you are doing) ;)~ Tatham Oddie wrote: Not true – you just need to know how to use it properly instead of Microsoft bashing. If you do want to use the built in controls and still get compliant markup, I can provide you with a really simple article on how to do so. Thanks, Tatham Oddie .. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slashdot HTML 4.01 and CSS
Yeah, it's been nice, that was one of the things I alwasy hated about slashdot. It got particularly funny and flamish whenever they posted articles that had to do with web standards. It's great to see more big sites moving towards web standards, hopefully Google will get around to it some day. Nick Lo wrote: Slashdot HTML 4.01 and CSS After 8 years of my nasty, crufty, hodge podged together HTML, last night we finally switched over to clean HTML 4.01 with a full complement of CSS. While there are a handful of bugs and some lesser used functionality isn't quite done yet, the transition has gone very smoothly. You can use our sourceforge project page to submit bugs and we'd really appreciate the feedback. Thanks to Tim Vroom for putting the HTML in place, Wes Moran for writing the HTML in the first place, and Pudge for writing the code to convert 900k users, 60k stories, and 13 million comments to comply. And for the brave, download the stylesheet and start experimenting with new themes and designs for Slashdot: some sort of official contest to re-design Slashdot is coming soon, so you can get a head start now. http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/22/1324207from=rss ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Konqueror and Galeon issues
I'm running Konqueror 3.4.1 w/ KDE 3.4.1 on Gentoo Linux and there
aren't any problems at all when I go to your website. Konqueror and
Firefox render it exacly the same. On top of that IIRC Galeon uses
gecko, which is the same thing Firefox, Mozilla, Epiphany, et al use so
they should render the same.
I don't know what is up w/ brosershots.org, but I don't think it's a
problem w/ your website. I think you can just safely ignore that.
Alan Trick
Webmaster wrote:
Hi all,
The fix provided the other day to clear floats and make disappearing content
re-appear worked well enough in most browsers.
However, having just performed a preview test at http://browsershots.org
(incidentally, this site deserves an award for its service to the web-dev
community), I'm horrified to discover that my third column is pulling back
into the centre in these two broswers.
The question is: should I care? Is this due to quirks in those browsers? All
others display just how I intended.
The screenshots can be viewed here:
http://browsershots.org/website/363651/
Do I simply need to apply my fix to ALL higher-level container divs?
/* Improved hack for Peekaboo bug which causes content from #middle
to disappear
if its height is less than that of #right. Include backjslash here
for IE5-Mac \*/
@media screen {
* html #middle { height: 0; }
}
/* end fix */
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Re: [WSG] Show Hide by Class
Yes, I've been doing that for some time and I really find it cleans up
my code, however you should note that class names are usually space
separated. At least in CSS the class green tomatoes will get the
styles of green and tomatoes, so by making your javascript aware of
this you can hav multiple classes on you div's which makes life a bit
simpler.
I'm too lazy to use any of javascript's OOP so I just use:
function hasClass(node,className){
if(node.className){
classes=node.className.split( );
for(i=0;iclasses.length;i++){
if(classes[i]==className){return true;}}}
return false;
}
function addClass(node,className){
if(!hasClass(node,className)){
classes=node.className.split( );
classes[classes.length]=className;
node.className=classes.join( );}
}
function rmClass(node,className){
classes=node.className.split( );
var newclasses = new Array();
var k=0;
for(i=0;iclasses.length;i++){
if((classes[i]!=className) (classes[i]!= )){
newclasses[k]=classes[i];
k++;}
}
node.className=newclasses.join( );
}
Not terribly optimized, but it works.
Stuart Sherwood wrote:
Hi All. I hope someone can help me with my problem but it isn't exactly
on topic so replies off list are encouraged.
The markup below is far from semantic but necessary for floating
elements and alignment. It will come out of a publishing system and may
repeat any number of times. For each category, the list of topics must
be hidden until clicked.
div class=categorya class=activate/a/div !-- Toggle Show
Hide for this category --
div class=topiclist!-- Show Hide This --
div class=topic/div
div class=topic/div
/div
div class=categorya class=activate/a/div !-- Toggle Show
Hide for this category --
div class=topiclist!-- Show Hide This --
div class=topic/div
div class=topic/div
/div
div class=categorya class=activate/a/div !-- Toggle Show
Hide for this category --
div class=topiclist!-- Show Hide This --
div class=topic/div
div class=topic/div
/div
I have this code from the following thread:
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum91/1729.htm
!--
//Create an array
var allPageTags = new Array();
function doSomethingWithClasses(topiclist) {
//Populate the array with all the page tags
var allPageTags=document.getElementsByTagName(*);
//Cycle through the tags using a for loop
for (i=0; iallPageTags.length; i++) {
//Pick out the tags with our class name
if (allPageTags[i].className==topiclist) {
//Manipulate this in whatever way you want
allPageTags[i].style.display='none';
}
}
}
--
But there are problems with above javascript that I don't understand
1. The loop counter, i, should be a local var (a little more efficient).
2. Some versions of IE5 accept getElementsByTagName but return null when
given the '*' argument. A quick check - and switch to the all collection
if needed would make it disaster proof.
Suggestions
Is it possible to pick out all elements with class=activate and then
make the function apply to the instance of class=topiclist that
immediatly follows it?
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Re: [WSG] Web font families
Paul Bennett wrote: And Times New Roman is the default font by browsers, if I remember correctly? At least IE's default font. I may be wrong (it happened once before ;) ) but I would think that the browser would use the default SYSTEM serif font. Seeing as this (for Windows) is Times New Roman, that's what you'll see on Windows machines... Welcoming feedback from those more 'in the know' Paul IIRC, you are correct. Although this by many different things. Mainly - the theme that you are using. If someone installs a different theme, that may change the default font. In linux we the same sort of system, except that what is the default font is less common because of the gtk and qt, and the fact that things are vey easy to theme. For example in my gtk theme in linux it defaults to some sans serif font (bitstream vera sans, I think). Then there's the Macs which are a whole 'nother ball game. At any rate, the most important thing is that you can't rely on anything. There is no way to reliably tell the fonts on your users machines or seamlessly let them download fonts you want them to use, because the people who are in charge of this sort of thing are too greedy to be able work together and create a standard (and the w3 couldn't care less about presentation). Another really annoying thing is that the fonts are not very consistant in there sizing. So sometimes I stuble on sites that have really large or unreadably small font's because of this. So the story is that you can't expect pixel perfection. HTML and CSS were not designed for that, if you need that sort of thing I think the PNG format would be good for you ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS 3 color module and deprecation of system colors
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Apologies for cross posting, but: could anybody shed some light as to why system colors have been deprecated in the CSS 3 color module? This is a bit OT, and correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't system colors be a big security threat as far a phishing and spoofing, and getting a client to thing your actually part of the browser when your not? Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 b1 :/
Jan Brasna wrote: OK, beta 1 pretty bad in the field of standards, only PNG partially fixed and peekaboo and guillotine bugs removed. Otherwise IE6-like. See http://kurafire.net/log/archive/2005/07/28/ie7-beta-1-release Yes, they fixed 2 bugs, and now it's a new version. That puts firefox at what, version 6,000 or so last time I checked bugzilla ;). I think IE 7 will be a bit of a disapointment to the web developer crowd. On the other hand it means that we won't have to deal with a whole buch of new ones that they would have inevitably produced. Till then we can always you Dean Edwards IE 7, a much more advanced one if you ask me. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] base css
Webmaster wrote:
If I know the base font I'll set that and some default
colours, then set a % text size in the body {}, to avoid
any font-size setting smaller than 1em.
Hi Heretic, please explain this. How does setting a % for text-size in body
prevent the appearance of smaller than 1em font sizes? Is 100% a good
starting point for body? Enquiring minds want to know.
I belive not having a % value on your top element ( html for XHTML and
body for HTML ) really screws up font-scaling in IE.
Alan Trick
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[WSG] paragraph indent
I wanted to get my paragraphs to indent on a site so I tried the most
intuitive thing:
p:first-line{padding:1em}
It did nothing. I tested a couple other things to make sure I was doing
the right thing, but it appears that I can only change the font values.
Then I tried this:
p:before{float:left;width:1em;height:1em;}
didn't work either. I toyed around with it a bit and it looks like
float:left doesn't work on :before stuff.
So finally I tried this:
p:before{content:'mmm';visibility:hidden;}
and it works as expected. This is something of a hack, but as far as I
know, it should work on all CSS2 browsers. Any better suggestions on how
to do this?
Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] Will HTML be nicer to PHP than XHTML?
Personally, I believe this is one of the strong argumens for XHTML. PHP is very sloppy, and when you combine that with another sloppy language, HTML, the mess is tremendos. For small projects and new people it's not much of an issue, but try to maintain a large codebase without it being incredibly buggy. Using XHTML forces you towards good practices, something that is good to do from the begining before you develop those bad habits. I don't know who was objecting to using XHTML, but IMHO it will interfere with you learning of PHP less than HTML because it will force you to know what your doing, which is the point of learning. XHTML is a beautiful thing. I use it every day with my PHP applications. I just can't wait till SVG gets some support. Alan Trick Roberto Gorjão wrote: Anyway, I noticed that many of you use XHTML and I sure was beginning to enjoy using it myself, and it seemed to me a good way to practice for the inevitable future… is it? I mean: a good way to practice, as I believe that XML is the inevitable future… I’m initiating now my study on PHP and MySQL and I read some objections about using XHTML with PHP… Will XHTML interfere with my learning of PHP? Would it be a good idea to stick with good old plain HTML? Obrigado! Roberto ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE and linux
Hi, My computer had windows and linux on it, but like to do most of my work in linux. This is a bit of a problem when it comes to making my css work for the browser we all know and hate, IE. Lately I've been doing everying in linux and then copying it over to Windows (cause windows can't read linux drives) and making a custom css file for IE. However, this is quite a pain, esspecially if I get a good idea while doing this and want to change something else then I have 2 versions to worry about. I tried googling it but I didn't get any luck. Does anyone here know if it's possible using WINE or something? Are there and HOWTO's around? Thanks, Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] small and big : accessibility usage?
Acording to the WHAT-WG the small element does have semantic meaning. I don't have the link though. They basically said that it was good for things like 'small print' and such cases. I think small is an unusal case here and is meanigful and useful. Alan Trick Matt Thommes wrote: Is there any reason at all to ever use small, and big? I know they are visual elements, but I thought I heard somewhere that small represents a tonal adjustment, for screen readers - such as *lowering* the tone of voice. em and strong provide levels of emphasis - but is there an opposite to that? The other end of the spectrum, I mean? MATTHOM matthom.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check w3planet.info
Nice site, 2 notes though.
You may want to add a:focus{color:white}, several of the links go
*completely* blue if you focus on them, a problem if your using tab a lot.
Also, there's a little problem in firefox on page to. I looks like a
float bug. It's probably firefox's fault but just letting you know.
Good luck promoting standards.
Alan Trick
Jad Madi wrote:
Hi
I have made some changes to W3 planet, would you please check it
http://www.w3planet.info/site/
and give me your feedback
Regards
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Re: [WSG] DOM tutorials/books?
There's these also, I can never spend too long w/o them: http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/ http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-DOM-Level-2-Core-20001113/ Alan Trick Nick Elliott wrote: Hi Following up on a thread from a month back, this book is now finally out. DHTML Utopia Modern Web Design Using JavaScript DOM by Stuart Langridge http://www.sitepoint.com/books/dhtml1/ Haven't had time to read it yet, although there are four free chapters (135 pages) available for download from Sitepoint's website if anyone is interested. Author comes from Melbourne, but I don't think he's a member of the WSG! Cheers Nick Cheltenham, UK ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A software question
I don't think there's a really good answer to this question. It really boils down to using what ever your comfortable with and will let you get the job done. Personally, I use plain text editors with syntax highlighting and I hate Dreamweaver (i've used 2002), but others feel differently and prefer drag-and-drop stuff. If you like Dreamweaver, but you can't afford the money, you can always try Nvu (http://www.nvu.com/), apparently it has fairly good standards support. Kvnmcwebn wrote: cant go wrong with dreamweaver mx 2004. great style sheet integration. pc version ships with top style lite and home site i think. costs around 500 hundred quid. -kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG Meetings for the rest of us
Yes, this would be great. I live in Canada, and being a student and all, I don't have the time, nor the money to visit Australia. If some one could release audio tapes or something, it'd be much appreciated. :) Alan Trick Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote: Man, oh man, would I love to attend some (pretty much all) of the meetings, seminars and discussions being hosted/held by WSG - but they seem to all be in Sydney. I live in the backwaters of the Philippines and am too broke to travel to these meetings and I really feel like I'm missing out on a lot of good stuff - not to mention networking and getting to know other professionals in my field. Aside from the networking/getting to know issue, is there anyway that the rest of us can read abstracts or important details from these meetings - like maybe on the WSG site? Once again, if I had the cash and ability to travel, I'd be one of the first people in line to pay the price of admission. Since this isn't the case for me - and I'm sure many other WSG members, is there any way or plan to share this wealth of information and expertise with the rest of us? Cole ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] absolute positioning, objects inputs
The select issue is an IE bug. As far as I know, there's no workaround. With the flash, I believe you have to set a property on your embed tag (wMode='opaque', but don't quote me on that). I'm not very familiar with Flash. Alan Trick Jamie Mason wrote: http://www.engineerrecords.com/abspos.htm This page is a quick example, it's got form inputs and a flash file with nothing done to them, then OVER THE TOP of that, is a blue absolutely positioned div. In IE - The select appears above the div In Mozilla - The flash appears above the div Does anyone know a decent way around this? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] VIRUS!!!
Tim John wrote: Hi, Luckily, I thought it a little strange to receive an email from WSG informing me that I'd been removed from their mailing list. Especially as the email was from [EMAIL PROTECTED] and contained a download - which I ignored! I'm just wondering, as I use MailWasher Pro, I could bounce said email but would not then receive any pottentially legit emails from [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any ideas? Two things, Either 1) the mail server was compromised, or 2) (far more likely) the email was spoofed. I don't have a copy of it, so I can't check myself, but can you see what the email has for IP addresses? Alan Trick __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] alt tags and image captions
Andreas Boehmer wrote: ... Yeah, they will repeat it. If I remember correctly they will read something like Image Joe Smith, Joe Smith. ... Yeah, I've used links on linux a bit lately (while waiting for stuff to compile) and this is probably one of the most common anoyance. Usually it looks something like: Joe SmithJoe Smith. There are a lot of images on the web that would be better of with an empty string for their alt attributes. Also remember that images are regularly inline content. People often style it as display:block, which is fine, but remember to put spaces between images unless their is good reason not to otherwise the following: img src='hello.png' alt=Hello/img src='world.png' alt=World/ will look like HelloWorld Alan Trick __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Ten questions for Russ
Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote: Russ wrote: [quote] At the risk of being burned at the stake, I think that unless you are willing to serve your pages as application/xhtml+xml with content negotiation, then you are probably better off staying with HTML 4.01 at this time. [/quote] Let me be the first to gather the kindling :-) The whole MIME debate started with Ian Hickson. Let me summarize his argument: If you author bad XHTML and serve it up as HTML, you won't know that you have invalid XHTML and you will blame XHTML when you find out. Sorry, this is not a valid argument. This is fear mongering. That might not be a valid argument but that was not Ian's argument (if I remember it properly). Here's what I think he was saying 1) the whole point of XHTML, is that it is xml and that it requires well-formedness 2) if you do not server application/xhtml-xml you don't gain that an you may as well be using HTML 4.01 3) additionally, sending XHTML with an HTML mime type is against standards, just as much as having a instead of amp; 4) because it is against standards, you can't expect standard behaviour from browsers. In reality they should all be putting a after your br/'s and input/'s and such (but only a one or two browsers actually implement that). I know the PHP DOM parser screws up when you give it a text/html file with an xhtml namespace. For all intensive purposes, you file will just be an oddly written html file with an incorrect namespace and incorrect dtd. The only time I find this is useful is when your sending content to a UA that does not support application/xhtml-xml and you don't want to rewrite your document for that. Alan Trick __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] killing the object tag
XHTML 2 is going to get rid of the img tag, which I think is good. object is a far better tag mainly because of it's fallback options, but the problem with object is that is has a very messed up history and as a result, it's practically impossible to use it for anything useful as long as your clients are using IE. IE doesn't support object type='image/png' and if you try to do something like object type='image/jpg' it inserts nasty scroll bars. object is also associated with ActiveX so if you have security levels above normal, IE will issue a security warning even if your just trying to display a poor little png. So here is my suggestion: Let's change object to obj for XHTML 2. 1. Standards-compliant browsers can support it very easily because they already have support of object, they can just transfer it. 2. On older versions of IE (or any browser), it will just go to the fallback solution, which is good because object wasn't ever any good in IE anyways. I'm assuming people with other browsers can easily update it. 3. IE will have to redo there object support at some point anyways. This will will allow them to do that without breaking bugwards compatibility. Something they are ever so committed to. 4. It's 4 characters shorter. 5. not as important, but can we change 'data' to 'src'. data is confusing because it isn't consistent with the other elements. What do you guys think of this? Is their somewhere I can submit this too? Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] can you hack the alt tag open?
I believe that is what object is for. If IE didn't screw it up so royaly with it's activeX it would be a considerably better option than the img. With an object tag, this object src='place' type='thisisnotsupported' object src='place' type='thismightbesupported' pThis is some alternate text for browsers that do not support 'thisisnotsupported' or 'thismightbesupported'. If a browser supports 'thisisnotsupported' it will display that, otherwise it will fall back to 'thismightbesupported', and if it doesn't support that, it will fall back to this text. You can also put emcool/em markup in here./p pA question to the guru's out there. If I put a script tage in here, will a browser that supports one of the above objects still execute the script?/p /object /object -Alan Paul Dwyer wrote: Sorry for the cross posting. Is it possible to serve up the textual contents of an alt tag, outside of the tag? In other words, can I make the stuff inside the alt tag as important as the document contents? I'm not exactly sure what I am asking here... I don't have the vocabulary. I want Googlebots to *really* see my alt tags and give them as much weight as the regular content of my website. ::pd:: ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] FYI New WSG jobs section
One question I wheather or not out-of-country people are allowed to apply for these jobs. Max Design is pretty upfront about Australia only, but I'm not sure about the other one. Being from Canada I would like to see something around here that wasn't Australia only. Why do all the good web designers have to be from Aussie Land? :P -Alan Trick Neerav wrote: Moderators I take it that the appearance of http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/jobs.cfm means that list members can post webstandards postions they know about there? Would this extend to the reverse eg: allowing people who are available for contracts/jobs to list themselves? Or do people looking for work have to stick to more subtle methods like Lea de Groot's signature Lea ~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane. Got anything? which prompted me to do the same thing :-) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
In writing (like not-web writing) there is a thing were quotes that are
just are just a few lines are written in the normal flow of the text;
however, if a quote is more than 3-4 lines it is separate and indented
(about .5' on each side, but it depends on whose rules you use).
Anyways that is what blockquote was meant to refer to. I your situation
I would use
div id='sidebar'
blockquote
pI am seldom attracted to books of this genre.p
pThis author was recommended by a friend, and I couldn't put it
down!/p
/blockquote
cite
Cole Kuryakinbr
San Francisco
/cite
/div
The only issue with the blockquote is that it can't contain plain text,
it has to be in a p or something, but if you don't like the extra
margin the p gives, you can just do
blockquote p{margin:0}
in the css
Alan
Lea de Groot wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:40:53 +0800, Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote:
So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q tags?
Blockquote, I beleive - you're correct in that q is meant for inline
eg
psome text qwhat he said/q more text./p
I normally start my css file with
* {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}
anyway which would already have stripped the blockquote indenting :)
Lea
~ looking for a perm. position in Brisbane. Contact me for CV.
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[WSG] is an empty href value valid
If I want a link that points to whatever page i am alread at (without any querystrings I can use a href='' (for example, I'm at index.php?start=10 and I want to go to index.php) Is this allowed? Alan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE problem
Ah yes, those problems. IE is quite bugy when it comes to floats. Try putting |display:inline| on everything that is floated. http://positioniseverything.net/explorer/doubled-margin.html Alan Trick Javier wrote: Hi I'm developing a site for a friend of mine and have some rare problems. What I did work well in Firefox, but when my friend saw it with his IE6 it was horrible !!! :( I used the classic two columns inside a container. Left column float to left and the other to right side. IE 6, ignores the width size of left side and show it bigger than expected then right side goes down. Also, right side right margin is bigger than in Firefox. I've seen hacks over the net and used one to define sizes in IE...but this problem is driving me crazy... You can see a page test in: http://home.leyba.com.ar/test/ I've defined borders in left and right columns to allow to see the problem... Any help or clue will be appreciated... Thanks in advance Javier ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] more on flashish stuff: SVG
Hi, I'll sort of try this again, and hope the gods don't mail-bomb us :P. SVG isn't quite flash, because it's not proprietary technology, but it's not terribly accesible either, because as far as I know, mozzilla is the only browser to have any built-in support for it (adobe has an svg plugin for IE). I guess one of the biggest differences here is that SVG has a future, where as flash is bound to the world of proprietary formats. Has anyone here actually done any development with SVG? Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] more float problems
Hi, Normally IE seems to ignore the proper rules of floats and expand boxes to fit them. Using this and overflow:auto for the other browsers that do the rules properly, is usually a fairly simple solution to the overlapping float problem. However, I've have a page that uses overflow:auto, and for some odd reason, IE is making floats overlap, causing all sorts of havoc. Here's a page: http://jellybean.uni.cc/contact.php (it looks right in firefox, wrong in IE, I haven't tested w/ a mac) Its the input buttons that are floated and overlapping causing the .sectionfooter to shove over. Any suggestions/help on what is causeing this? Alan Trick
Re: [WSG] usage of new entities in dtd's
Ah, yes. Gecko does the same thing once it's given xhtml. only it's a bit more picky. You have to use the xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" if your going to get any styling action. Alan Trick Kornel Lesinski wrote: On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:41:16 +0100, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm just curious if any popular browser would display this page properly http://www.tarunz.org/~vassilii/html-is-an-sgml-dtd.html I though Moz would, but it disapointed me. Opera does, but only for XML (i.e. application/xhtml+xml). I've saved it as .xml, tided it to be well-formed and got: "Your browser (Opera/8.0 (Windows NT 5.1; U; en)) rules! Drop me a line..."
Re: [WSG] usage of new entities in dtd's
As far as I know, no User Agent (besides the W3C validator) repects the content-type header. It's a bit of a pain. Sans headers (like if your opening a local file) Firefox (and I'm gruessing the whole Gecko family) will treat a file as application/xhtml+xml if the extention is .xhtml, if it's .xml it will call it text/xml, but the rendering effect will be the same. With websites it's a bit tricky. The problem is that some of the legacy browsers (at least IE) go all funny when you send them application/xml+xtml. Ideally you can use something like PHP and check the "HTTP_ACCEPT" header like this. Otherwise IE tries to save your pages instead of view them. Alan Trick Townson, Chris wrote: In both Mozilla and Opera, I found that what was crucial was that the server (Apache, in this instance) was configured to deliver the file as application/xhtml+xml (+ being well formed, of course). Merely setting this in the document head was not sufficient. Thus, tidying up the code and adding "AddType application/xhtml+xml .xhtml" to httpd.conf got everything running smoothly.
[WSG] usage of new entities in dtd's
I'm just curious if any popular browser would display this page properly http://www.tarunz.org/~vassilii/html-is-an-sgml-dtd.html I though Moz would, but it disapointed me. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to use external fonts with css?
Hi, From what I can tell, there's no reall way embed fonts, apart from image or flash replacement. All we have is the Microsoft propriety-ware and something that was released by Bitstream but abandoned because Bitstream would not open-source it. Too bad. Alan Trick tomcask o_o wrote: I will wish to use external fonts (noncommon to pcs, obtained through server by the pagina Web) for my designs with css, somebody knows like doing it? Thanks. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] usage of new entities in dtd's
Tom Livingston wrote: On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:41:16 -0400, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm just curious if any popular browser would display this page properly http://www.tarunz.org/~vassilii/html-is-an-sgml-dtd.html I though Moz would, but it disapointed me. ** Opera 7.54u2 Mac does. I think. What should I see? you should not see: |But; your; fine; browser; does; n0t; care;| or the |]| at the top ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site review
Neerav wrote: Looks nice, wish I could afford it :-) The only 2 small problems I see are caused by the standard text size being too small, so I choose medium size text (in Firefox 1.0 Win 2000 1024x768) and: 1. Making your African Dreams a Reality! is overlapped by Lodges Hotels 2. Terms Conditions and Office Information overlap each other Interesting. I'm viewing it in firefox 1.0.2 XP with the same resolution, but there's no overlapping? Mabye it's been fixed already ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Son of Suckerfish and IE 6 (SP2)
Yes, I've encountered that as well. I think It's interesting that it blocks javascript on your own computer, but will gleefully accept it (and activeX objects and whatnot) from the internet (because we all know who how safe the internet is). I guess it's just one of those 'undocumented features'. Jan Brasna wrote: I notice that IE6 with service pack 2 installed initially blocks the JavaScript that makes the li hover sections drop It's only when browsing local files. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] css expresions? todo : not todo
What do you guys think of useing css expressions to mimic standards-compliant behavior. (hidden, of course, from the good browsers) One useful example I found would be something like this: http://blogs.clearscreen.com/migs/archive/2004/12/23/676.aspx Would using them allot cause the browser to slow down? -Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css expresions? todo : not todo
David Laakso wrote:
One useful example I found would be something
like this:
http://blogs.clearscreen.com/migs/archive/2004/12/23/676.aspx
(could not locate remote server)
Funny, it works well for me? Anyways, it's just a nice article on wo
to make use of css selectors in IE.
for example: input{color:_expression_(this.type=="button"?'red':'black');}
for input[type="button"]{color:
red;}.
Alan Trick
Re: [WSG] ID conflicts
tee wrote:
Yes Sir!
And thanks million for the fix. Came up a quick copy and paste test page. It
works beautifully. Will study your code thoroughly lately tonight to make
sure I understand everything.
http://www.lotusseeds.com/tryagain_michael.html
Looks nice,
Maybe you've already thought of this, but the list is useless without
css support. I'd suggest putting spanlist item name/span in the list
items and then do something like
|li a span {display:none}|
Good Luck
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Re: [WSG] Suckerfish Sliding Doors Image Replacement with Current Page .. Navigation
Sorry, I don't have a Mac, so I can't help you in that department, but I tested it in my versions of Firefox (1.0.2 nightly) and the menus go down, but they won't go up again (at least I couldn't figure out how to do it). Alan Trick Richard Czeiger wrote: Let's combine a whole bunch of different CSS concepts and hope it works in everything. :o) Check out this link: http://www.grafx.com.au/wip/test/test.html Here's the CSS: http://www.grafx.com.au/wip/test/styles/style.css On the navigation: 1. The suckerfish drop down on services in the menu works. 2. Replaced all the text links with sliding doors background images. 3. Because we're on the Client page, this has it's roll-over state on. All this works PERFECTLY on PC FireFox, PC IE 5.0 and PC IE 6.0. Mac Safari? The nav doesn't work at all Can't even click on the buttons. Can anyone PLEASE help me? I don't have OSX 10.2 so I can't test on Safari. Anything to get me out of this hole would be greately appreciated!. Cheers :o) Richard ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] position:absolute in IE
Disclamer: this was /not/ my idea, the companies graphic designer make me do it :-P The graphics designer at my company has a thing against pages that are larger/smaller than the viewport. As much as I fell this is total nonsense I've tried to comply with her wishes. As always IE is giving me hell and I was wondering if anyone has any resorces on how to make absolute positioning work properly in IE. The design is at http://cgemery.com/new/ Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] position:absolute in IE
That's what I had, but AFAIK, you can't have the page resize to fit the viewport without absolute/fixed positioning (unless you use a screwy js hack). If you could prove me wrong I would be very greatful. Personally I dislike absolute positioning. Alan David Laakso wrote: On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 11:33:53 -0400, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Disclamer: this was /not/ my idea, the companies graphic designer make me do it :-P The graphics designer at my company has a thing against pages that are larger/smaller than the viewport. As much as I fell this is total nonsense I've tried to comply with her wishes. As always IE is giving me hell and I was wondering if anyone has any resorces on how to make absolute positioning work properly in IE. The design is at http://cgemery.com/new/ Looks like a simple fluid width 2-col layout with a header, horizontal nav bar, and fixed width right column would do it for most concerned browsers. Alan Trick Best, David ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] stemming autoreplies
I know this is offtopic in this list but I don't know where it is on topic, I'd be happy if anyone pointed out where I should send this. I'm wondeing if the people who maintain the mailing list could stop forwarding emails with 'AUTOREPLY','OUT OF OFFICE', and 'MESSAGE NOT DELIVERED' in the subject. I think it would do a good amount to stem the amount of inavertent spam. Thanks, Alan Trick
[WSG] stemming autoreplies
I know this is offtopic in this list but I don't know where it is on topic, I'd be happy if anyone pointed out where I should send this. I'm wondeing if the people who maintain the mailing list could stop forwarding emails with 'AUTOREPLY','OUT OF OFFICE', and 'MESSAGE NOT DELIVERED' in the subject. I think it would do a good amount to stem the amount of inavertent spam. Thanks, Alan Trick
Re: [WSG] textarea rows cols - presentation in xhtml?
I've wondered about this one as well, my guess is that 1. they figured the attributes were to important to drop in the event of non-css user agents, or more likely 2. they didn't change it because xhtml1.x was really not much more than a reformulation of html into xml. To get real xhtml we will have to wait for xhtml2, xforms and all that good stuff. (there are no cols or rows in xforms). This was done in order to maintain backwards compatibility, something xhtml2 will break. Not a great answer, but that's all I can come up with. Alan Paul Novitski wrote: Why is it that rows and cols are required attributes for the textarea element, even in xhtml? They strike me as being purely presentational, and not really needed: in the absense of styling, browsers could apply arbitrary defaults as they do with text input field width. I can't find any reference to this oddity on the w3c site or elsewhere. Any suggestions? Paul
Re: [WSG] Multiple classes applied to one element
This is certainly valid code and as far as I know, it is accepted across modern browsers. I've used it quite a lot and have never had any trouble with it. I find it quite useful. Alan Trick Stevio wrote: From what I understand, if you want to apply multiple classes to the one element, you do the following: p class=class1 class2 Is this proper valid code accepted in modern browsers or is there anything I should know to concern me with about using it? Thanks, Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Extra hidden content
Yes, although I'll had that their are certain times when you do want this to happen. I've used this for menus, blocking spiders from emails, and a few other features. Of course as Patrick said, they do need to make sense when stylesheets are disabled. I don't think having two headers is an appropriate use for this. Using print css's only have to take away from what's normally on the page. Alan Trick Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Stevio wrote: How do you handle the situation of hidden elements becoming displayed when the normal stylesheet is not used? Is this a problem that concerns you? Pages should make sense when stylesheets are disabled (for users of screenreaders, text-only browsers, users with css disabled, search engine spiders, etc)...so I'd advise against the above mentioned practice. IMHO, of course.
Re: [WSG] list bullet question
Hi, There are several advatages to using list-style-image you can click on the image to select the list item it's slightly simpler you can still have another background-image on the element IMHO, the bullet as background image is still better though because of buggy css support. Alan Trick Hi Ted, All personal opinion, but the bullet as background image has a lot of advantages: - You have far more control over the positioning of the bullet, as you can set it in any position using a range of units (pixel, ems, percents. You can even position the bullets under the list items if desired. - As it is positioned exactly, it is also more cross-browser stable, at least across the modern CS supporting browsers. Russ When creating custom bullets, I tend to use the background and padding avenue. I know you can also assign an image as a bullet. My question is, which is better? Is one method more bullet-proof?
Re: [WSG] problem mixing stucture and content
Yes, they would wrap (as in not whitespace:pre). Using a line /
element isn't ideal, but might be my only resort
In a perfect world that supported css2 properly would this work?
?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8?
poem xmlns=http://some.name.space;
line id='1' /Class aptent taciti sociosqu qad litora torquent,
line id='2' /per conubia nostra/q per inceptos hymenaeos.
/poem
and css:
poem{position:static; display:block; border:1px solid #000;
counter-reset:poem_line}
line{position:static; display:block; counter-increment: poem_line;
content: counter(poem_line) . ;}
q:before { content: open-quote }
q:after { content: close-quote }
Ben Curtis wrote:
Consider the following lines of fake poetry:
Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent,
per conubia nostra per inceptos hymenaeos.
Now consider making a xml document out of it
...
|?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8?
poem xmlns=http://some.name.space;
lineClass aptent taciti sociosqu qad litora torquent,/line
lineper conubia nostra/q per inceptos hymenaeos./line
/poem|
but it's not well formed, and neither or the alternatives
Allow me to pose this back to you:
The display for these data is 13 characters wide. Do your
line.../line content wrap?
no = the fact that it is on one line is more important than being
able to read it in its entirety (e.g., wrapping it would change the
meaning, as in ASCII artwork)
yes = the content is more important than the display, and the end of
line more important than the fact that it is a single line.
So, for your poetry example, I would encode it like so:
poem
stanza
Class aptent taciti sociosqu qad litora torquent,br/per
conubia nostra/q per inceptos hymenaeos.
/stanza
/poem
br/ in this sense doesn't mean a line-break so much as it means
end-of-line. If a quote did not terminate before the end of a stanza,
then you self-close the quote; the next quote will be an open-quote at
the beginning of the next stanza, anyway.
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[WSG] problem mixing stucture and content
Consider the following lines of fake poetry: Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent, per conubia nostra per inceptos hymenaeos. Now consider making a xml document out of it, where you had some elements for structure like |poem| and |line|; and some elements for content markup like |||q||| and others. So how would you format it? (Assuming keeping the quote and lines are both need to be the appropriate elements and style is not important, yet) |?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8? poem xmlns=http://some.name.space; lineClass aptent taciti sociosqu qad litora torquent,/line lineper conubia nostra/q per inceptos hymenaeos./line /poem| but it's not well formed, and neither or the alternatives are appropriate, both: |lineClass aptent taciti sociosqu qad litora torquent||,/q||/line line||q||per conubia nostra/q per inceptos hymenaeos./line | and |lineClass aptent taciti sociosqu||/line|| q|| line||ad litora torquent,/line lineper conubia nostra||/line|| /q ||line||per inceptos hymenaeos./line | won't do because they don't properly convey the data and would be almost impossible to style appropriatly as well. Of course in this situation you'd probably be better of ignoring the q's and just using quotation marks, but in my situation that's not really possible. I /have /to include both the strucutral markup and the content, any suggestions? Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] problem mixing stucture and content
But the whole point of it is to have the data properly formated in an xml document so I can do fun stuff with xsl and stylesheets :). Line breaks won't cut it. Alan Trick Rob Mientjes wrote: On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:26:47 -0500, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Consider the following lines of fake poetry: Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent, per conubia nostra per inceptos hymenaeos. Now consider making a xml document out of it, where you had some elements for structure like poem and line; and some elements for content markup like q and others. So how would you format it? (Assuming keeping the quote and lines are both need to be the appropriate elements and style is not important, yet) Fake the PRE element. It automatically tosses new lines on new lines, unlike the usual element. Also, inline elements can go multi-line in PRE. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] divs don't align
here's the quickest fix: on div#rhs h2, change margin-left: 201px; to margin:0 0 0 201px; It works on IE and Firefox/win, so it should work on Camino and probably Safari too. Alan Trick Tony Lim wrote: I'm having trouble with http://www.outdoorinsights.com.au appears ok on IE on a pc but the left hand image is about 15px below on Safari and Camino. If I set the margin at -15px, it is ok on Safari Camino but moves up on IE. Any clues? Sampai berjumpa lagi Tony Lim [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 2 44418668 ph +61 2 44418898 fax 0411052746 mobile P O Box 138 Huskisson NSW 2540 Level 1 51 Owen St Huskisson NSW ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] nesting in list
Does anyone know what is allowed to be nested under a list (ul,ol,dl) in XHTML? I read one resource, but all it said is that ul and ol require 1 li, and dl requires at least one dt, and one dl. Alan Trick
Re: [WSG] To Specific
Definitly, There are a /lot /of things you find in th specs that are overlooked elsewhere. The DOM specs are about the only descent easy-to-download reference I've seen on DOM, I'd be lost without them. Alan Trick diona kidd wrote: Chris, I'm finding a great value in reading the w3c specs while working on a current project. A few other resources are also helping me advance my understanding of XHTML/CSS: the book 'The Zen of CSS Design', alistapart.com and several other websites. Looking at work from other developers and this list is also helping a lot. I often copy code posted here into files and reverse-engineer it to see why something works and/or what breaks it. The time spent is definately proving worthwhile. My code is becoming even more logical and much cleaner than before. I take a lot less shortcuts and usually end up replacing old shortcuts with newer, more compliant ones. The specs are solidifying my understanding of what 'compliance' is... Mind you, I haven't read them front to back. Just whatever applies at the time or what interests me. Diona On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 09:25 -0800, Chris Kennon wrote: Hi, Is there a value in reading the XHTML w3org specifications? What would be more productive in advancing understanding of XHTML/CSS? CK ___ An ideal is merely the projection, on an enormously enlarged scale, of some aspect of personality. -- Aldus Huxley ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] style attribute depreciated in xhtml 1.1?
I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated in xhtml 1.1. Does this mean that it will eventually be obolete? If so, what do they expect us to do for inline styles because it doesn't always make sense to have everything in an external style sheet. Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] style attribute depreciated in xhtml 1.1?
I'm implementing some BBtag-like things on my webste though, and it semes to make more sense to have something like [red] create a span style='color:#f00'/span instead of a span class='red'/span and have a whole bunch of unnecesary styles, and if I want to allow something like [span style='color:#123'], that is quite difficult to do via classes and external/internal css. The only other place I've used it is when I want to randomly generate a background-image or something, but that probably better doen with internal css Alan Trick Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote: Hi Alan, I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated in xhtml 1.1. Does this mean that it will eventually be obolete? It depends on what you mean by obolete. Deprecated means that it's part of the spec but the construct is outdated and its use is strongly discouraged. The next version of XHTML is 2.0 which won't get wide acceptance for 5 to 10 years. It's in Working Draft status. In it, the style is not flagged deprecated but that can change. Here is what the spec says: Note: use of the style attribute is strongly discouraged in favor of the style element and external style sheets. In addition, content developers are advised to avoid use of the style attribute on content intended for use on small devices, since those devices may not support the use of in-line styles. Source: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-styleAttribute.html If so, what do they expect us to do for inline styles because it doesn't always make sense to have everything in an external style sheet. Can you provide some example of how you want to use inline formatting? Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Alan Trick wrote: I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated in xhtml 1.1. Does this mean that it will eventually be obolete? If so, what do they expect us to do for inline styles because it doesn't always make sense to have everything in an external style sheet. Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Quoting Code Snippets - whitespace and wordwrap
In response to the earlier conversation: Is it possible to put a css attributes on an elemtent that will respect spaces, but still wordwrap? I tried copying the textarea css in forms.css onto a test div and viewing it in firefox to se if that would do it, but firefox controls it's textarea look some other way. Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] problems with nodetype
I was tying to use nodeType to make sure that a node was an element in
my javascript, but it wasn't working. Then when I did
alert(aNode.nodeType); I got undefined, I was really confused so I tried
alert(document.nodeType); and I got undefined again! Is there a reason
I'm getting undefined instead of DOCUMENT_NODE or 9? I used
if(aNode.tagName){ ...} to achive the required result, but it's a hack
and I want to know what's wrong with nodeType?
Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] problems with nodetype
I don't know what the problem was, but I copied Gez's code and it started working, O:-) . Possibly just a spelling error or a missing a ' or one = instead of two. Thanks, Alan Ben Curtis wrote: I was tying to use nodeType to make sure that a node was an element in my javascript, but it wasn't working. Then when I did alert(aNode.nodeType); I got undefined, I was really confused so I tried alert(document.nodeType); and I got undefined again! Is there a reason I'm getting undefined instead of DOCUMENT_NODE or 9? Give us your demo page URL. Likely, you are alerting these values before they exist. The DOM attributes don't exist for nodes that have not been parsed yet. Are you triggering this onload, or in the head of your document? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] centering floats?
I have a bunch of boxes that are all a fixed width and a fixed height. I have them floated in a containiner so that they lineup nicely into rows. However, I want them centered so that when I only have one or two they'll be, well, in the center. There's no float:center as far as I know, but is there some other way to achive this? I can't make them inline elements because then i'll lose the fixed height and width, and if I make them display:block then they won't line up in the rows. Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Liquid layout with fixed width elements
Here's a way that would work on most browsers. The middlestuff div isn't
mandatory, but it is usefull if you want to have a background, if you
don't use middlestuff then you'll have to use #footer{clear:both} .
HTML:
div id='header'/div
div id='middlestuff'
div id='leftbar'/div
div id='rightbar'/div
div id='content'/div
/div
div id='footer'/div
CSS:
for all
#middlestuff{overflow:auto}
for leftbar | content | rightbar:
#leftbar{float:left;width:10em}
#rightbar{float:right;width:12em}
#content{margin:0 12em 0 10em;}
for leftbar | rightbar| content :
#leftbar{float:left;width:10em}
#rightbar{float:left;width:12em}
#content{margin:0 0 0 22em;}
for content | rightbar| leftbar :
#leftbar{float:right;width:10em}
#rightbar{float:right;width:12em}
#content{margin:0 22em 0 0;}
if you want content | leftbar | rightbar or rightbar| leftbar | content
you'll have to use absolute positioning (I think) which would screw up
your footer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi all,
I've done some research on this and can't quite come up with a viable
solution.
What I have is this: a header, main content, side content 1, side content
2, and footer. The side contents are fixed with. The header, main, and
footer are liquid.
This is the way the markup flows in the document as well. What I'd like to
do is figure out how to make several liquid layouts without changing the
markup. I want one where if you look at the page, you see (from left to
right): side content 1 then main. Another where main comes before side
content 1. Another where it shows side content 1, main, side content 2.
(Header and footer come before and after respectively like normal)
I've been able to achieve this just fine with fixed layouts using the same
markup with no problems and it works in all common browsers on Win/Mac. My
question to all of you is, is this possible to do with liquid layouts? If
so, how? If not, what would I need to make it work with liquid layouts?
Any help is appreciated.
Nicholas Rougeux
art, the web, and everything in between
http://www.c82.net
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