[WSG] Encoding odities
Hello all, I've got a problem with character set encoding I'd like to rectify. I use UTF-8 as a matter of convenience and ideology, and don't believe it should be that much of a problem. My editor (Notepad++) is set to create new files in UTF-8 without a byte order mark, but when I retrieve files from my server it tells me that they're ANSI. I ran an automatic W3C validation of my markup just a second ago after making some edits and it warns me that no character set encoding was specified (even though the first tag in my heads is meta name=content-type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8). More than a little confused about this. Could it be that this is a contradiction with the fact that my files are somehow converted back to ANSI by the server or something? Any help much appreciated, Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] London meeting
Joseph Ortenzi wrote: Can I know why WSGLondon do not make use of the WSG list? I have started an informal discussion group for London and would really like to help support the more structured WSGL presentations with a monthly discussion group, and possibly some planning and organising assistance but cannot get a hold of any WSGL people. Are you out there, people? Jo, at first I thought this was a complaint in reaction to Karl’s post — but by the looks of it you just missed it. The jist is, there’s a specific list for London web standards meetings. http://www.pubstandards.co.uk/ I hear about far many more web developers from the South East than I do Canberra, so it makes sense. This’d be the place to post things to, now that we’ve made some noise about it on the Web Standards list proper. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility
Christie Mason wrote: I can't believe I'm even talking about rights and shopping in the same sentence. Are you implying that shopping is a luxury? As horrible as you may find it, shopping is actually necessary for human survival in a capitalist society. It's the only way we can acquire goods. To elaborate... I don't think it is all creditable to think that online stores are a whimsical fancy that people don't really need. For the less able of us (cheaper computers and software, impaired senses, impaired mobility, less disposable income) these sites are all the more important since they can be an incredible enabler. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility
Michael MD wrote: Are you implying that shopping is a luxury? As horrible as you may find it, shopping is actually necessary for human survival in a capitalist society. It's the only way we can acquire goods. Target is not the only place where people can go shopping ... OK, so one website per–general–purpose should remain accessible. Shall we say Amazon and EBay? Play.com and HMV are pretty cool, but they‘re obviously burning with the desire to screw all their users and make their site one giant static image. This is within the scope of media sales. For information, let‘s keep... Wikipedia. In any case, as subscribers to the WSG, we should really start voting soon on which websites should be accessible. I think everyone here at least agrees on one thing ... we want to see more websites out there become more accessable. If a company shuts down their website because they are being sued does that make it more accessable? I think not. I don't see why they'd want to shut it down – I wouldn't if I was them. If Target think they‘re better off losing all of their online market than expanding it, that's their choice. An incredibly stupid one, but fine. This is the thing: Target have nothing to lose. You seem to imply it’s cruel of us to demand standards of them that they haven’t already provided, in case they go and sulk rather than abide by them. That's their financial suicide, I‘m really not going to start crying for a national corporate giant because they‘re emotional idiots. It‘s an odd Americanism that we should treat large financial bodies with the sentimental sensitivity usually reserved for puppies and small children – because I don't think those notions have much value in the world of economics. Discrimination of your customers and breadth of audience, on the other hand, mean something serious to them. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility
Christie Mason wrote: I think you'd better check your history books. Changes in culture occurred first, creating an environment for the laws to be created - for better or worse. Odd that you chose examples involving a king and a dictator, not the best examples of the body politic. Tell me when I make an incorrect assumption. • As a society, we don’t believe discrimination based on physical or purchase ability should be tolerated – in almost any circumstance possible. • As a society, we addapt and enforce laws to serve widely-held beliefs. Andrew was proving that even in the most unpopular and undemocratic of cases, law follows culture – and as it turns out The Matrix was a film and actually, humans conceive of and enforce law. If a majority supports a law and it is passed, I don’t think you’re going to get much success parading yourself as a liberator shouting “You’re letting laws determine your way of thinking!”. It’s bloody obvious to everyone here that the case in point is exactly the opposite. Regards, Barney PS: I would like to call Goodwin’s law and get myself and every other participant to this thread banned from this list. Web standards forever, eh? If PPK saw this he’d shoot himself. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In 2000, Bruce Maguire's accessibility complaint against the Olympics.com website was upheld. Did this lead to a spate of frivolous, discriminatory lawsuits in Australia? Did it lead to any improvement in accessibility of commercial, government or hobby web sites in Australia? Did it lead to any improvement in the Olympics website itself? I try to ensure my professional work is accessible, but I am far from being persuaded that legislation of this nature can ever be effective, without also being a burden on smaller sites, particularly those that are no longer actively maintained. Necessary and important websites are where it really matters. If your homepage with your Quake highscores, photos of your cat, favourite animated .gifs and the depths of space as the background isn't accessible, I don't really think anybody gives a sh!t. It really isn't going to damage the standards movement in the slightest. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] How many of us are public and how many private?
Public, and I work with a small team of specialists. As far as I see it, the public sector is fairly serious and strong transferable competencies are demanded from you. As such you tend to get less nonsense communication with clients, you're constantly developing a more honest expertise, and you've got more of a record in the area. Freelance commercial work looks more exciting and higher-paid, but a lot less reliable in terms of regularity and client attitudes. At least in the near future I can't imagine relying on commercial work as my chief income. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Open Source CMS
Web Dandy Design wrote: Hi, Can anyone advise on the most accessible, open-source CMS between Joomla, Drupal or Plone? No takers? I'll answer the question: Plone. You'll need Python (pretty rare on servers as a whole) as opposed to the far more widespread PHP to run the shebang, but I find it to be far more customisable with far more power. Plus, Python Tal and Metal are extremely easy to understand and manipulate in the templates (should you ever need to). Drupal and Joomla seem to be far easier to install and get running, but after that you're stuck in absolute hell if you want anything other than an elaborate blog (granted, that is all people seem to want these days): Crucially, there are no link libraries. Plone (indeed, the Zope beneath it) simulates folders perfectly so you basically have a file system logic – and keeps a catalogue of all files, pages and sub-elements that can easily be mashed, concatenated or referenced from anywhere else. Plus the number of incredibly advanced products (including such wonderful things as TextIndexNG, which can index MS office files and make them searchable)... It's hands down to me. I'd recommend setting up a virginal Plone and installing the DIYPloneStyle product to get on your way. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Popup 'box' on hover
Spirit Q.9 Gaming wrote: http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/gallery_click Can you use this? Stu Nicholls has done a few :hover lightboxes: http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/lightbox.html If you want to be really flash (without flash, naturally)... http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/image_magnifier2.html Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Popup 'box' on hover
Spirit Q.9 Gaming wrote: That lightbox and the image will disappear when we move out the mouse though clicked, should use combo? What iStockPhoto does is a no-click interface where you just hover over things to expand them and off to make them disappear. iStock's thing uses javascript to keep the box positioned relative to the cursor, but that's just extra unnecessary hassle (Stu's methods can be used with JS turned off – hence a lot more accessible), and besides I think it's actually very irritating to have the text and image you're focussing on move about. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] When is invalid CSS okay?
Rick,
The key thing to consider is this:
• Invalid *ML will force browsers into defective behaviour. If your
markup isn't written according to the very clear spec, the browser has
to make assumptions. Different browsers make different assumptions at
different times – you are leaving yourself open to all sorts of trouble.
Don't do it!
• Invalid CSS is written because *perfectly valid CSS*, especially in
ambitious designs, *will cause different browsers to behave in different
ways*. In complete opposite to invalid markup, invalid CSS often has to
be used to secure consistent behaviour accross circumstances.
I regularly use MS proprietary CSS (off-spec and therefore invalid:
zoom, filter, etc.), the comma hack (',' at the end of selectors, feeds
the rules to IE* only, and is considered bad syntax), and various
comment hacks (break rules up with comments to render them as simply bad
syntax to all modern browsers) – to ensure a standardised experience for
as many users as possible.
Of course such effects must be understood before they are used – but in
all likelihood you are only using them because you've seen that things
screw up if you don't. The worst that can happen is an unforseen display
problem, or you getting confused in hindsight as to how everything's
holding together through non-spec CSS. Aside from that and the withering
glare of unemployed standardista mullahs, you have nothing to worry about.
Regards,
Barney
PS: I just read your post regarding the danger of hacks getting fixed.
My answer to this is simple: Whenever a major browser comes out, I have
to recheck all my designs and see what behaviour it exhibits – and deal
with it. Whether I use hacks or not, I'm still going to check and quite
possibly (remember when IE7 hit the streets?) have to fine-tune for it
anyway. In this circumstance hacks are just more code to go through –
although with a fair bit of luck we will work out which hacks apply and
safely be able to ignore the rest. It's not as if any new Microsoft
release leaves puritan non-hackers laughing.
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Breton Slivka wrote: I explicitly said that graphic design is *Not* about the visual, or aesthetic appearance. Graphic design is an integrally visual craft. I cannot conceive of it in any other medium, unless you're saying its real focus is your college lectures (it gets even better than that). Graphic design which espouses all your favourite typographer's principles but is not aesthetically pleasing is utterly worthless (again, outside of the context of the lectures). You have not stated a single thing that graphic design /is/ actually about. You have mentioned three books about typography, which is a miniscule facet of graphic design. If people are as severly misguided as you believe, and your opinion is this controversial, you owe it to yourself (let alone us) to elaborate on why this is the case. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript image rotator
swifr offers cute image modifying effects (including rotation) using Flash, and degrades gracefully. http://www.swfir.com/ However it can't do the other things you're asking for by itself. The problem is really the image rotating - everything else could be done with lightweight javascript but actually modifying an image is a bit beyond its reach and as such that puts you in the Flash object department. Regards, Barney Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself here again asking your professional opinions :) Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website. Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically, without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be: - A fade effect between the rotating images. - A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image. Any links would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Barney Carroll Text Matters Information design: we help explain things using language | design | systems | process improvement ___ phone +44 (0)118 918 2382 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://www.textmatters.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] JavaScript gurus - exercise in vanity
Cameron Singe wrote: I read a book by Christian Heilmann on beginning javascript, I would rate him as a guru Definitely. FYI Lars, http://domscripting.com/ is Christian's hub site. Jeremy Keith should also be above most of these people as popular and populist (just under PPK, possibly) - http://adactio.com/articles/. And seeing as we might as well get back on topic, PPK and Christian Heilmann are brilliant standards advocates and accessibility gurus as well. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?
Nick Fitzsimons wrote: But there's then little point in communicating this fact to a list about Web Stanbdards, as you are clearly advocating something which is in breach of said standards. Steady on, Nick. If he wasn't here you wouldn't be able to tell him this - it's exactly the right place for Lucien to be. ...and then later: It's semantically meaningless as a fieldset is meant to contain a thematically related set of fields, not a thematically related set of arbitrary textual information. Exactly. Lucien: I understand you like the semantic idea of 'set' - but 'fields' are a pretty specific notion. If you like having tags describing 'a thing containing other things', that's a given with any block-level element in SGML - so don't worry about it, it's prety obvious to a deceased squirrel foetus that a div containing objects is containing objects, and that those objects could be described as 'the set of objects sharing that parent'. Back to fields however: 18. Computers. a. one or more related characters treated as a unit and constituting part of a record, for purposes of input, processing, output, or storage by a computer: If the hours-worked field is blank or zero, the program does not write a check for that employee. b. (in a punch card) any number of columns regularly used for recording the same information. I lifted this off dictionary.com. It fails to mention that this is an attitude that reigns outside of computers and has long been established in paper-based bureaucracy - you fill in the fields of a form (i.e. 'What should I put in this field?'). Taking it out of that context is operating to standards of your own - perhaps fun as a one-person inside joke, but otherwise just baffling and needlessly convoluted. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?
Designer wrote: Nick Gleitzman wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: ...a deceased squirrel foetus Wow. What an image. N ___ I wondered if you kept one on hand, in your office, for purposes of validation? I use it mostly for accessibility tests. The fur gets a bit greasy and matted occasionally and the smell's regretable - but I've been working with developers for so long now, I barely notice. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Recommended screen size
For what it's worth, I often get irritated with 1024x768-mimum layouts, even though my screen is a wopping 1600x1200. There's obviously such a thing as incredibly long lines, but even in cases like the wonderful alistapart.com, I'm irritated that the screen should necessarily be so wide. I actually want my viewport smaller than that without having supposedly useful things hidden. The problem is that a lot of 800x600 designs will look awful once stretched. Ultimately you can't make everyone happy unless you use a trick akin to volkan ozcelik's switching layouts [sarmal.com]. But for a large part it's knowing how to design well that'll get you out of the pickle. Chose 800x600 and get it looking fantastic on 1024x768 too. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] OT on list
Nick Gleitzman wrote: Photoshop and JAWS: sorry, Marvin, but that's just OT for this list. Stuart Foulstone wrote: Assistive technology off topic??? It's worth making the point: Don't get intimidated by this - JAWS is a perfectly legitimate thing to discuss here. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] OT on list
Nick Fitzsimons wrote: Would you argue that a discussion of the use of Jaws with Microsoft Excel (which is, judging by the manufacturer's FAQs, one of its commonest uses) is related to Web Standards? Only if the .csv was downloaded off the cybercom. A statement in the root post would easily be understood as JAWS is OT for users with no knowledge of whatever topic that was referring to. They shouldn't be put off. But I digress: Let's see how popular we can make this thread. A web standards list about grammar, oblique self-references and wilful misunderstanding, that's what we could all do with. Hehehe. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Stuart Foulstone wrote: Hi, The for attribute should NOT be used when the label tag encloses the label text. What are the dangers? Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suggestions rquired on my web portfolio
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All: My name is Puneet, web designer based in Dubai. Recently I have revamped my website with tableless design and xhtml, keeping the web standards in mind. I would really appreciate, if you guys can take a look at : www.puneetsakhuja.com, and send me your comments/suggestions. Puneet, very nice site. There seems to be nothing wrong with it. I would recommend using this tool to get a more thorough review of your accessibility: http://fae.cita.uiuc.edu/ Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Anyone had success using Dragon Naturally Speaking to transcribe audio files?
Open Vision wrote: No, but that is interesting to hear. My son is severly dyslexic and is going to start college nxt fall. His counselor suggested just that program and told us it was the best out there. I've met several people who swear by Dragon as a dictation tool. A couple of contacts of mine have a disclaimer in their footers to the effect of the words may be incorrect, but the spelling perfect - but their email always comes through word-perfect. As far as automatic transcription of audio not spoken for purpose though, I have heard it cannot be trusted. Speech needs to be enunciated cearly and purposefully for it (although I imagine your son would have little use for this). Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Valid and well-formed
Aside from namespace issues, validation deals principally with well-formedness, as far as I'm aware. If someone really believes the W3C is of no concern to people focused on building well-formed documents, they should tell us what definition of well-formed they are using. Otherwise this thread will quickly become a torrent of pointless opinion soup. Regards, Barney Katrina wrote: Does the W3C validation mention well-formedness? No. But since the definition of valid includes well-formed, well-formed documents should not validate. Please do not quote Wikipedia, when the W3C sets authoritative documentation. The point with the Wikipedia was to show that it wasn't just me that interpreted the W3C documentation in that manner. What do W3C say about well-formed, nothing I expect? Since well-formed applies to their standards, quite a lot I would imagine. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-well-formed http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#h-4.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#wellformed Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] strong v's b , em v's i
Open Vision wrote: Let them keep putting them up. As long as we know what's right we can do a good job and it may keep the competition down! LOL That's a pretty closed vision! To be honest, the best thing about web standards is that they're not standard. It makes me employable. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: rel post, was: RE: [WSG] style sheets - best practices
Tim wrote: I reckon you are being cynical Barney :-) Consider colour blindness, 8% of adult males, you can allow a user to select a colour scheme. Consider screen size, alternative stylesheets can improve presentation of different devices. I use seven different linked stylesheets on everypage, hardly anyone uses them, but a few people really want and like them. Riiight. I had no idea the rel could be useful as far as this function was concerned. Having said this, I presume you use on-page devices to switch this? Seeing as those special features available in Firefox are in my experience only used by enthusiasts, it seems a pretty thin rope for accessibility features. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices
Grant Novey wrote: Using the @import stylesheet rule is great if you only want your stylesheet rules to be picked up by most modern browsers. Netscape 4 and below and IE 4 and below do not support the @import rule. This allows you to target stylesheets to specific browser versions. Does that make sense? This is the only practical advice I've seen on the topic. A while back I read this article on the secret power of the rel property in links... The author went about listing examples of different objects you could link and different terms for what relevance they might have (hence rel values). His enthusiasm was tangible, but he gave absolutely no indication of how this would improve any appreciable aspect of your page as far as user experience was concerned. Am I just being cynical or is it really just a bit unnecessary? Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices
Linked css (and if @import is maintained, a css link after the embedded style) resolves certain flash of unstyled content IE6 bugs. Regards, Barney Bob Schwartz wrote: Rob, I've been modularizing like this for years: link href=../../as/cs/com.css rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=screen link href=../../as/cs/p7pmv0.css rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=screen link href=../../as/cs/thickbox.css rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=screen Am I doing something wrong? Is there an advantage to importing over linking, or a limit to the links (ie. should only one be linked, the rest imported and if so, why? Bob I believe what you may have seen is the practice of having link type=text/css rel=stylesheet href= media= screen in the page body for xhtml validation purposes having a raft of @import statements in the linked CSS file The principle being to modularise your CSS, having multiple separate CSS files I don't think the real concern is for long since dead browsers such as IE4 and NN4 -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk http://ele.vation.co.uk On 15/03/07, *Bob Schwartz* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Makes sense and I already knew that. The reason behind my post has to do with me noticing a trend towards importing style sheets and I was curious if this was the current best practice and if so, why. Bob Using the @import stylesheet rule is great if you only want your stylesheet rules to be picked up by most modern browsers. Netscape 4 and below and IE 4 and below do not support the @import rule. This allows you to target stylesheets to specific browser versions. Does that make sense? On 3/15/07, *Bob Schwartz* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the current best practice for style sheets - imported or linked - and why? Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Barney Carroll Text Matters Information design: we help explain things using language | design | systems | process improvement ___ phone +44 (0)118 918 2382 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://www.textmatters.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Shelley Purvis wrote: No, they should be marked up as: tdnbsp;/td Bzzzt - wrong answer -- the nbsp; is meaningless. Meaningless under certain definitions but completely harmless. Besides, an empty cell is already meaningless. Attack the very notion if you're truly concerned about a semantic table. In any case it's certainly unambiguous and processable by csv. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Hassan Schroeder wrote: Excuse me? In any DB (or programming language) I use, a null value is *not* equal or equivalent to a space character. Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
David Dorward wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. If somebody's copying and pasting HTML into a database, spaces in supposedly empty cells is the least of your worries. If someone really wants to implement this, I'd have the source document as XML or CSV. Use XSLT to turn it into HTML, have the javascript load only on HTML web pages on the internet, client-side (sorry if I sound patronising, I have difficulty expressing these things without spelling them out). But I'm no expert. I don't actually know any XSLT, and I'm not entirely sure of myself when I say using HTML as the master source for conversion into other data files is such a bad idea. I just think that if you have the need and means to do that, you wouldn't be drawing direct from HTML in the first place - HTML would be the last step of presentation of that data for web, in my mind - you'd access a purer version or at least use a parsing tool before putting it into anything else. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
David Dorward wrote: Intranet? Where did this start being limited to an intranet? ... But HTML is not a presentation language, it describes structure / semantics. Internet, David. Honestly, HTML may be very nice indeed, but I'd strongly advise against it for general purpose data-handling. Are you honestly going to write these things in HTML, and for purposes other than the internet? I honestly can't conceive of this. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Tables always get people dancing around the room, mostly drunk.
The presentation seems unusual as does the term 'table' (possibly
because there's only two values per row). But the most common instance
of tables in print is the table of contents, which is exactly like this.
Try arguing that isn't a table.
Introduction..1
Chapter 139
Chapter 256
As for the 'it could just as well be a definition list' thing, I'm in
agreement but it doesn't cause me headaches anymore. From a practical
level, dd{display:table} doesn't work very well, whereas
td{display:block} is bulletproof. So in any case where something could
be construed as a table, I'd say go with those tags and use CSS if you
decide the info isn't being displayed clearly.
Regards,
Barney
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Rob Kirton wrote:
Barney
I don't see this as being a definition list. 39 does not define Chapter
1, it is an indicator of where to find chapter 1. It is arguably a
table, as in table of contents. Of course it is all a bit of an odd case
considering the web. Web pages aren't paper, and trying to replicate
the behaviour of books via a screen can in *many* circumstances seem a
little perverse
--
Regards
- Rob
Sorry Rob, I think you've got the wrong idea. This is relating to a post
Thierry made about tabular data.
The example of contents tables was specifically cited as being 'instance
of tables in print'. I was by no means suggesting we take this to the
web - Thierry's example uses the same format (which is the key matter)
but relates to positions occupied within a company in one column and the
names of the holders in the second.
Remembering that we're discussing Thierry's example, a definition list
would have been appropriate. Besides, I was specifically stating that
the markup for definition lists could be avoided and the same layout
produced with a table and CSS (td{display:block} + niceties).
Regards,
Barney
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Recommendations for Usability sub-contractor; SEC=UNCLASSIFIED
Mike Brown wrote: - we don't want to get into a debate as to which usability consultants are good or not, or even what makes a good usability consultant Sarah, usability standards conversations are a hot topic over at the evolt.org list. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript to check for Handheld Devices
Tim wrote: My meta tag base href were taken out of pages by ask.com the mobile version http://m.ask.com/ This allowed them to run my site by relative URLs on their server with fake paypal links en all. Jesus, that's horrible! Excuse my ignorance. It seems then, that all the best opportunities for designers to optimise for small devices and screen readers are being usurped by the developers. Do they really know better? Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Recommendations for Usability sub-contractor; SEC=UNCLASSIFIED
Tim wrote: What a statement! Are we hear for W3C standards or fiction? ANyone touting for work here should be fairly subject to at least W3C validation tests! Or else! What are the standards? I have to back this. In my mind this is exactly what this list is for. If people can't go to the public Web Standards Group list for advice on standards, common sense is failing us. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Recommendations for Usability sub-contractor; SEC=UNCLASSIFIED
Ian Stalvies wrote: Um ... as far as I know Hiser, as a rule, don't actually code sites - they try to focus purely on usability. Which I believe was Sarah's original request ... It's still an awful indicator. Although I've seen a lot of Australian firms selling accessibility, and awards crediting it, and generally they don't seem to care much about validity (even to the level of lack of doctypes and encoding parameters). It's hard to give advice, based on this. If an awful-looking, ambiguously-coded page is there to advertise a usability consultant... I'd have to say I wouldn't trust them. What else do you have to go on? Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of Enter key to naviagte between form fields
Nick Roper wrote: Hi, A customer has requested that they should be able to navigate between input fields on a form by using the Enter key - i.e. to replicate the action of the Tab key. I've seen examples of Javascript code to do this, but I'd be interested in any feedback on whether there are any issues with this and what the best approach is to implement. Thanks, Nick Can't offer you technical help Nick, however I think it is your duty to tell your client this is a terrible idea. The behaviour they describe is useless (already fulfilled by the tab button), and their desire to have the enter button perform the same function is completely irrational. Even if they find it better to use the enter key, no-one else will expect this. Indeed it is incredibly counter-intuitive because everybody who uses a keyboard will have very strong notions about what these key buttons' functions are. To ask them to remap them for your site on whimsy is suicidal. And besides, what would replace the enter key? Tab? If you go ahead with this for whatever reasons, I suggest a JavaScript alert on pageload that warns the user as to the fundamental breach of convention that runs on your pages. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
