Re: [WSG] HTML5 offline storage question
The iPhone has a 5mb upper limit per page. I think the ipad's limit is 10mb but I am not sure. So in other words, no. -Breton On 09/08/2010, at 2:55 PM, Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com wrote: Hi all, I'm asking around the traps on a question which has come up at work. We want to develop an iPad app to will allow users to download from a website (like a synch) large quantities (hundreds of MB) of documents (pdf and word) for reading offline. Is the offline storage tool in HTML5 designed for this sort of heavy lifting? are there storage limitations? on an iPad? I've found a few examples of the tool in action and read bits and pieces, but it all seems to be about storing small chunks of data, not humunguous great whumps of it. -- Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com http://www.woowoowoo.com ~~~ * ~~~ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.
I have a stripped down example of it here. The bug only occurs in IE 7, and possibly ie6, and it occurs in IE8 running in compatibility mode. I cannot be sure whether it happens in IE8 in IE8 mode or not. (MS have made the compatibility mode interface so bloody complex I can't figure out whether I'm in it or not at any given time). The example is here: http://zenpsycho.com/iebug.htm On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of the screen, and a view cart link on the right hand side which is NOT clickable, but which should be clickable. The ingredients of this bug appear to be: * a left floated element followed by * an italic styled element nested directly inside a p tag, which are both preceded by * a menu with links that are floated to the right Combine these things together, and the right hand side of the screen becomes unclickable. (you can have a huge column of links on the right hand side, and they're all useless). What really bothers me about this one, is that the spell is mysteriously broken (the bug goes away) if you change this: Pspanv /span/P to this: Pspanv /spannbsp;/P Just what on earth is going on here? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.
On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Joseph Taylor j...@sitesbyjoe.com wrote: I took a look at your source code - there are a whole bunch of issues beginning with oddities in your HTML - things like: !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd; HTML lang=en xml:lang=en xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; Your saying the DocType is HTML 4.01 Transitional, but then you're linking to the XHTML namespace - that's probably confusing IE right from the get go. Using Transitional DocTypes also pisses IE off. ul Weird spacees in your tags? That's begging for IE weirdness. Try starting with perfect HTML that's of the Strict DocType whether it's HTML or XHTML. I'm pretty sure the well observed and documented behavior of IE is that WHICH doctype makes absolutely not a lick of difference at all. The only thing it looks for is the string !doctype at the beginning of the document, which decides whether it goes into quirksmode or not. But to such objections, I've cleaned up the example. It now validates on the w3c validator, has no spare spaces in the wrong places, doesn't disagree with itself about what sort of document it is, and still exhibits the bug, about as I predicted it would. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.
I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list, which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable, disconfirming your conclusions. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Kepler Gelotte kep...@neighborwebmaster.com wrote: On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of the screen, and a view cart link on the right hand side which is NOT clickable, but which should be clickable. The issue does not seem to be related to standards. I cleaned up the code and the problem persists. The cause is that the right floated View Cart link does not get pushed below the paragraph. The paragraph has a width of 100% so it ends up covering the link which is why it is not clickable. To see it more clearly, I put a version of your page with different colored borders around each block at: http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iebug.html If you open it in IE8 and switch between IE7 compatibility mode and back, you will see the view cart link moving up and down. Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.
Then perhaps you would care to explain why this document: http://zenpsycho.com/quirkstest2.htm activates standards mode, when the table you've linked to suggests that it should be in quirks mode? for comparison, here's a typical html 4.0 strict doctype: http://zenpsycho.com/quirkstest1.htm I would conclude that the page you've linked to does not reflect reality. What would you conclude? On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Rimantas Liubertas riman...@gmail.com wrote: I'm pretty sure the well observed and documented behavior of IE is that WHICH doctype makes absolutely not a lick of difference at all. This is not correct. The only thing it looks for is the string !doctype at the beginning of the document, which decides whether it goes into quirksmode or not. Rendering mode does depend on the doctype: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb250395.aspx#cssenhancements_topic2 ... Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.
So you think that there's an invisible part to the paragraph that is not outlined by the border? Kind of makes the border 1px approach to development kind of useless in IE in the face of behavior like this, don't you think? But I still don't think this idea quite matches up. In the broken version, try clicking on the ul using the IE developer tools element select. You end up selecting not the P tag, which you've hypothesised is covering the UL. Instead you end up selecting the body tag. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Kepler Gelotte kep...@neighborwebmaster.com wrote: I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list, which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable, disconfirming your conclusions. Actually, I was agreeing with you that it is a bug. I still think I am correct. The paragraph is still on top of the ul even if it is not covering all the list elements. I created another version where all I did was add a clear:both to the paragraph and now all links are clickable. You can see it here: http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iefix.html Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.
To counter my point and support yours though, setting a width on the P tag also makes the elements clickable. Which does seem to suggest that the P tag extends vertically down further than its border suggests it does. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Breton Slivka z...@zenpsycho.com wrote: So you think that there's an invisible part to the paragraph that is not outlined by the border? Kind of makes the border 1px approach to development kind of useless in IE in the face of behavior like this, don't you think? But I still don't think this idea quite matches up. In the broken version, try clicking on the ul using the IE developer tools element select. You end up selecting not the P tag, which you've hypothesised is covering the UL. Instead you end up selecting the body tag. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Kepler Gelotte kep...@neighborwebmaster.com wrote: I see I have still not conviced you of the weirdness of this bug. I've updated my version to have a 1px border, and more items in the list, which are NOT covered by the P element. None of them are clickable, disconfirming your conclusions. Actually, I was agreeing with you that it is a bug. I still think I am correct. The paragraph is still on top of the ul even if it is not covering all the list elements. I created another version where all I did was add a clear:both to the paragraph and now all links are clickable. You can see it here: http://neighborwebmaster.com/tests/iefix.html Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Another Question about JavaScript.
if you have javascript related questions/talk, you can try
comp.lang.javascript. Here:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/topics?pli=1
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Brett Patterson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I hate to ask another question about JavaScript, but I need help with ONE
more thing, please?
Using the following JS code in XHTML Transitional:
function proc()
{
var num = document.heartSearch.hsQty.value*8.95;
document.hSearchoutput.hsTotal.value = r2(num);
}
function prc2()
{
var num = document.youKnow.cutSandHours.value*12.17;
document.outme.soter.value = r2(num);
}
function r2(n)
{
ans = n * 1000;
ans = Math.round(ans /10) + ;
while (ans.length 3) {ans = 0 + ans;}
len = ans.length;
ans = ans.substring(0,len-2) + . + ans.substring(len-2,len);
return ans;
}
and the following HTML code in XHTML Transitional:
div id=oklastone
form action= name=heartSearch
select name=hsQty id=hsQty onchange=proc()
option value=00/option
option value=33/option
/select
/form
/div
div id=otherrecal
form action= name=hSearchoutput
input type=text name=hsTotal id=hsTotal value=0.00 /
/form
/div
div id=meinga
form action= name=youKnow
select name=cutSandHours id=cutSandHours onchange=prc2()
option value=11/option
option value=55/option
option value=66/option
/select
/div
div id=noca
form action= name=outme
input type=text name=soter id=soter value=0.00 /
/form
/div
div id=costana
form action= name=costAndTtl
input type=text name=TtlCost /
/form
/div
How would I get the last form to show the SUM of both the id=hsTotal and
the id=soter text fields?
--
Brett P.
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
JScript was originally created as an exact reverse engineering of Javascript (including the mistakes), so that IE could read pages with javascript on them. This was of course, during the browser wars when they were competing for features. Jscript has fallen a bit behind Javascript by now, so there are many features in Javascript that Jscript does not support, such as Array extras, continuations and function expressions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
It is my understanding that the bulk of those OOP design patterns are useful to get around the limitations of static languages like C++ and Java, that don't allow you to arbitrarily add/remove properties from instances, change the type of a value, or allow higher order functions (functions that return functions values), or allow you to pass in functions as values. Given that javascript allows all those things, much of those traditional OOP design patterns don't make much sense, because they're getting around a limitation that doesn't exist. I haven't extensively used the OOP facilities in PHP, I've always found the syntax to be ugly as hell, I could never bring myself to type that crap willingly. So unfortunately, I cannot speak knowledgably about how difficult or hard it is in PHP. On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:17 AM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My statement was not worded correctly. I use Java, C++, PHP and Javascript and I can tell you that out of the lot of them, Javascript is the most difficult to incorperate conventional Object Orientated design. For example you cannot simply define classes, or use visability keywords (you can do it, but not the conventional way) and some of the OOP design patterns are difficult to put into Javascript. I have the Apress book on Javascript Design Patterns, which helped alot when learning OOP in JS. Sorry my wording was wrong. I think the above is what I meant. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 11:00 PM, Brett Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. But, one final question. Was the first ever implementation of JavaScript designed to be object-oriented, object-based, or prototype-based? Thank you all. Here is Brenden Eich, Javascript's creator, pontificating on the history and genesis of javascript http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roadmap/archives/2008/04/popularity.html#more Quote: I'm not proud, but I'm happy that I chose Scheme-ish first-class functions and Self-ish (albeit singular) prototypes as the main ingredients. So in short, Yes, it was object oriented, with prototype-based inheritence, first class scheme like functions, and (thanks to netscape management) Java like syntax right from the start. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
The term Javascript is indeed owned by Sun. The implementation of Ecmascript in IE is called JScript, not Javascript, so it doesn't infringe the trademark (technically, but it's similar enough that people can still easily think that IE calls it Javascript) On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Brett Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sorry, but I must ask. Are you saying that the term JavaScript is owned by Sun? Or just the Java part? And, yes, JavaScript is implemented in Internet Explorer. On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Anthony Ziebell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, great. It was my intent to acknowledge some standards / submissions for OO which inferred classes / native inheritance were needed. Thanks for your help :) Cheers, Anthony. Keryx Web wrote: Anthony Ziebell skrev: Still confuses me though - if someone is object-orientated but is in essence prototype-based (with regards to object, inheritance, etc), why is it incorrect to say JavaScript is prototype-based? Your confusion comes from comparing apples to steam trains. Prototypes are an inheritance mechanism for objects. Classes are another inheritance mechanism. A language may implement either one or both (very rare). It does not matter which inheritance mechanism that is used. It is still an OO language. It is *not* incorrect to say JavaScript is prototype based. It is. No one is denying it. It is *not* incorrect to say JavaScript is OO. It is, since OO is a paradigm for programming which JS fits very neatly in. It is de facto called OO in the ECMAScript spec. It is *not* incorrect to say JavaScript is object based. It is - since it has object wrappers for all primitive values. You really did seem to say that classes are needed for a language to be called OO. Now you have stated that you did not intend to say that. Case closed. Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Anthony Ziebell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Luke, Discrediting c++ has nothing to do with the question Is JavaScript object-orientated?. With that, and in closing, I would like to point out that my comments were based on the actual question - asking if JavaScript were object-oriented, not if it has objects. Prototype has objects, and it is of my opinion that JavaScript is more prototype than anything else. Thanks, Anthony. Yes that's fine anthony, but the problem is that statement doesn't actually mean anything. it is logically invalid, and quite nonsensical to say javascript is not object oriented, it's more prototype based, because the two things are not mutually exclusive. Javascript having prototypical inheritence has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether it is object oriented or not. It can be both object oriented, AND based on prototypal inheritence, and in fact, it is both. 100%. This is not my opinion. it is a fact. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Anthony Ziebell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Breton, There is a difference between the use of object and object-oriented programming. Yes you say that, but you never go into any detail about it. In what way in particular is the concept and use of objects independant from object orient programming. Did the concept of objects *not* come from smalltalk, the original OOP language? Can you cite any occurance of the concept of an object in programming that predates smalltalk? Do you then, think it's therefore possible to create a language with Objects that is not in any way inspired by, or derivative of smalltalk? Because honestly, I'm confused about where you think the concept of OOP came from to begin with. Coad / Yourdon suggests object-oriented being classes and objects, inheritance and communication with messages. Does JavaScript have classes? Can inheritance of JavaScript occur without prototype? Those are typical elements in OOP languages, yes, and they all existed in the original smalltalk. Are you suggesting that any slight deviation from small talk renders a language completely not OOP? If that were the case, you would pretty much have to rule out any language that was not smalltalk itself. But let's assume you have a less extreme position. What is your methodology to determine how far a language can deviate from smalltalk before it is no longer OOP? You seem fixated on the concept of classical inheritence being essential for a language to be OOP, but this is contradicted by the existance of numerous OOP languages that do not have classes. How do you account for this? Javascript in fact, does have classes, but not as a mechanism of inheritence. Javascript's inheritence is prototypal. You seem to be suggesting that this makes it not OOP. I would like to suggest that if this makes Javascript not OOP, then you would have to say that a dozen other OOP langauges are also not OOP. The choice of class as a defining characteristic of OOP seems arbitrary. If you can suggest that any arbitrary deviation, such as class, from smalltalk makes a language not OOP, then C++ and JAVA are not OOP either, due to their numerous deviations. May I provide the following resource, pointing out second paragraph under 'Adding a Method': http://www.kevlindev.com/tutorials/javascript/inheritance/index.htm Object-oriented programming consists of native inheritance. Are you suggesting that a prototypical approach to inheritance one in the same as native inheritance? This is a red herring. With this, you have attempted to change the topic from whether javascript is OOP or not, to whether it has classical inheritence or not. Or, if you have not changed the topic, you appear to be assuming that everyone is in agreement that classes are a required attribute of OOP. This is arbitrary and nonsensical. Thanks, Anthony. Breton Slivka wrote: On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Anthony Ziebell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Luke, Discrediting c++ has nothing to do with the question Is JavaScript object-orientated?. With that, and in closing, I would like to point out that my comments were based on the actual question - asking if JavaScript were object-oriented, not if it has objects. Prototype has objects, and it is of my opinion that JavaScript is more prototype than anything else. Thanks, Anthony. Yes that's fine anthony, but the problem is that statement doesn't actually mean anything. it is logically invalid, and quite nonsensical to say javascript is not object oriented, it's more prototype based, because the two things are not mutually exclusive. Javascript having prototypical inheritence has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether it is object oriented or not. It can be both object oriented, AND based on prototypal inheritence, and in fact, it is both. 100%. This is not my opinion. it is a fact. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Anthony Ziebell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Lets all just agree then, that the first insulin is simply the best, so no further development in this area is needed. I am going to link you to two more resources. If you feel that the first ever implementation of object should mandate all others (such as the first insulins), then I welcome you to submit edits to this article. You seem to have missed my point. My point was, if we are to count arbitrary deviations from smalltalk as discounting a language from being oop (such as a lack of classical inheritence), then the only OOP language is smalltalk. This is clearly absurd. Therefore, javascript must be OOP. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
I have in fact read your references, not only just now, but again and again I have read the wikipedia articles on the subject many moons ago. Frankly I fail to see how any of it contradicts my position, but they do contradict your position. I'm afraid I will have to throw up my hands and give up on you. You are a lost cause. you cannot be reached. On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Anthony Ziebell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You seem to have missed my point and many references too. Try reading some of the references and come back with an informed opinion, not just nit-picking at analogies I am providing to attempt to help you understand (as I gather you would not be reading any references I have provided, which conflict with your argument anyway). Thanks, Anthony. Breton Slivka wrote: On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Anthony Ziebell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Lets all just agree then, that the first insulin is simply the best, so no further development in this area is needed. I am going to link you to two more resources. If you feel that the first ever implementation of object should mandate all others (such as the first insulins), then I welcome you to submit edits to this article. You seem to have missed my point. My point was, if we are to count arbitrary deviations from smalltalk as discounting a language from being oop (such as a lack of classical inheritence), then the only OOP language is smalltalk. This is clearly absurd. Therefore, javascript must be OOP. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 2:57 AM, Nancy Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A bit off topic, but not totally: are there any free good online tutorials (best practices and/or standards based) to help me learn to write javascript? Thanks, Nancy This is the best javascript lesson book online that i've found. Avoid w3cSchools at all costs. http://eloquentjavascript.net/ On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 11:32 PM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The language itself is NOT object-orientated, its proto-type based. It can be used in an OOP fashion, but this is not true Object Orientation as it is in languages such as C++. I've already covered this earlier, but in short, prototype-based, and object oriented are not mutually exclusive. they are orthogonal concepts. Javascript is prototype based AND object oriented. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Anthony Ziebell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A 'superset' of ECMA3 which is not fully compliant. Right... I think you're confused. Maybe you you're thinking of the w3c dom- Which is a seperate standard and topic from javascript/ecmascript. All implementations of javascript in all the current browsers are fully Ecmascript edition 3 compliant, so far as I'm aware. If you have additional information about specific incompatibilities, I would be extremely interested. On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Anthony Ziebell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Brett, JavaScript is commonly referred to as 'object-orientated' but really, JavaScript is 'prototype-based'. They do have different meanings, but have some similarities... A language's method of inheritence is orthogonal to (has nothing to do with) whether the language is object oriented. Inheritance is an OO idea, so the fact that javascript has inheritence of any kind pretty well cements that it at least has object oriented capabilities. But it goes further than that, because all values in javascript inherit from Object, and can be treated as objects, making Javascript a fully object oriented language. It is not an imperative language with OO features tacked on, like php5. Javascript is OO from the ground up. The tricky thing here, and the part that I think is confusing you, is that most languages described as OOP languages include an entity called Class that javascript doesn't appear to have. You might draw from this the conclusion that if a language doesn't have class, then it is not OOP. Truth: class is just a random concept that quite a lot of language designers happened to fixate on. Class is not central to OOP. Object Orientation is *not* a computer science concept with solid foundations in mathematics and philosophy. There is *no* formal definition for what OOP is. There is no universally agreed on method for determining whether something is or is not OOP. OOP was just an idea from some guy named Alan Kay, that he used as the basis for his language SmallTalk. He designed SmallTalk that way because it felt right, and he thought that it saved time. The concept was useful enough that it became popular. This makes OOP more of a meme than a scientific theory, as such. read more here: http://users.ipa.net/~dwighth/smalltalk/byte_aug81/design_principles_behind_smalltalk.html A later object oriented programming language called SELF showed that classes were not necessarily the most important concept about Object orientation. The most useful aspect of object orientation historically, has been the bundling of code with the data it operates on. Inheritence has recently been shown to be somewhat less important and useful than it's been seen to be in the past. (deep inheritence is bad practice in JAVA, for instance, in favor of interfaces). Alan Kay once expressed surprise at how fixated on classes many later programming languages have become, as he saw his concept of message passing to be the most important aspect of the design. Javascript is a language which is well documented to be a mashup between 3 languages. It's a combination between SELF (Object orientation, and prototype based inheretence), with scheme (functions as first class values), dressed up with JAVA like syntax. (curly braces) Javascript contains all the important and useful parts of the object orientation meme. Since javascript everything in javascript is an object- including functions, you can bundle code along with data into a single object, storing functions as values on the object. Objects delegate missing properties and methods to their prototypes, providing a scheme for direct instance-to-instance inheritence which mimmicks message passing. So there you have it. Whether javascript is OOP is kind of a matter of taste, rather than definition (Because there is no definition). It's a bit like pondering whether Piet Mondrian was an artist, because he didn't paint pictures of real things. Of course he is, but it's confusing because Mondrian was unlike any other artist anyone had ever seen. In the same way, Javascript is an OO language unlike any other OOP language most people have seen. (most people haven't seen SELF, or newtonscript, or io, or REBOL) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?
But on the other side, I'm not sure how many people use add ons like no flash or no script and there's no way to find out. Cheers, Johan Yes, there IS a way to find out: Compare server logs with which people actually executed the analytics script. I just haven't seen any implementations of this strategy. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Breton Slivka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But on the other side, I'm not sure how many people use add ons like no flash or no script and there's no way to find out. Cheers, Johan Yes, there IS a way to find out: Compare server logs with which people actually executed the analytics script. I just haven't seen any implementations of this strategy. Just to contibute a bit to the discussion, I've seen figures along the 5% range on that particular statistic. (people with javascript disabled) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Flash replace Javascript in Future?
Read the story on that page carefully. What has happened is that flash 10 has increased restrictions over what features within the flash plugin can be invoked via javascript. This only applies to one specific feature (file uploads), and effects virtually no other flash features. It does not effect javascript's abilities in general, only the abilities of javascript to use flash in certain ways. This point will largely become moot once video/audio/3d/canvas becomes widespread and built into browsers, and flash as a result becomes less relevant- Particularly on low powered platforms like the iPhone, and Android which do not have flash- or the wii which only has an older and underpowered version of flash. So in my opinion, to the contrary- This news story is reporting on decreased ability of the flash plugin to play well with javascript- It will not make flash replace javascript- Except as a workaround in the specific case of file uploads. On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Charles Ling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Guys/Gals, I would like to get some opinion from you all, that would Flash 10 or ++ will replace JavaScript in the future? According to this blog : http://ajaxian.com/archives/flash-10-and-the-bad-news-for-javascript-interaction. I found that alot of media website started to replace Javascript to play their audio/video and of course Flash required to be install as third party plugin and had to be updated (which is annoying). Did you guys/gals use alot of flash in your past projects that you were working with? Cheers, Charles. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] contentEditable
I don't mind so much about the javascript thing myself, my problem is that contentEditable areas don't generate onChange events like form elements do, so they are very difficult to script properly On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Robin Gorry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, this is an in-house project so this may not be a problem but an excellent point. Robin Gorry Senior Web Developer Xplore Net Solutions Xplore.net Website of the Week: Weleda (Australia) - www.weleda.com.au Weleda has a range of anthroposophic medicine - the simple yet powerful way to utilise nature's medicines to stimulate the body to 'heal itself'. Until recently their website did not accurately reflect their brand and they had no easy way to profile their product range to their Australian consumers. The new Weleda website is powered by the Xsite content manager, Xforms, Xshop, Xmembers and Xtend. Combined, this powerful toolset enables Weleda staff to add/edit/delete pages, text and imagery throughout their site, create online forms and surveys, provide an online product catalogue and issue logins to restricted access areas on their website. f: 00 64 (0)6 834 24 86 e : [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: www.xplore.net Take control of your website - ask me today about Xsite-tomorrows Content Management System CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Martin Sent: 26 September 2008 15:18 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] contentEditable The issue with this approach is that it is not part of a form - so the only way to submit it will be too use javascript which is an issue if javascript is not enabled. - Original Message - From: Robin Gorry To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 1:06 PM Subject: [WSG] contentEditable I am putting together an in-house application and I want to have editable areas on html template. I have come across what I think is a de facto standard across most browsers and that is the contentEdiatble attribute. I have tested it and it works in ff3, ie6 +, opera 9.52, windows safari 3.1.2. Has anyone had any experience or problems with using this attribute? Here is the code if anyone would like to test. !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd; html head meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 titleUntitled Document/title /head body div contentEditable this is my editable div (or is it) /div /body /html Any comments would be most welcome. Robin Gorry Senior Web Developer Xplore Net Solutions Xplore.net Website of the Week: Weleda (Australia) - www.weleda.com.au Weleda has a range of anthroposophic medicine - the simple yet powerful way to utilise nature's medicines to stimulate the body to 'heal itself'. Until recently their website did not accurately reflect their brand and they had no easy way to profile their product range to their Australian consumers. The new Weleda website is powered by the Xsite content manager, Xforms, Xshop, Xmembers and Xtend. Combined, this powerful toolset enables Weleda staff to add/edit/delete pages, text and imagery throughout their site, create online forms and surveys, provide an online product catalogue and issue logins to restricted access areas on their website. f: 00 64 (0)6 834 24 86 e : [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: www.xplore.net Take control of your website - ask me today about Xsite-tomorrows Content Management System CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [WSG] Best format for accessible equations
Might I suggest quite simply, that in the alt attribute, you write in english, basically what you would say if you were to read the mathematical expression out loud? This has the best chance of being converted into something comprehensible by a screen reader. I am assuming of course that screen readers typically have no built in facility for dealing with mathematical expressions. For example, something like X over 2, raised to the power of Y I'm pretty sure there's a fairly traditional language used for reading math expressions, though I don't know of any references. On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Andrew Ivin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, We are implementing mathematical equations on one of our websites. Unfortunately, we are not able to implement a MathML or LaTex type solution at this stage (developer time and budget constraints) So, we are putting these equations up as graphics. I'm wondering the best way of giving these graphics alt attributes - both for web browsers and screen readers. If there are any suggestions, they would be much appreciated. Thanks, -- Andrew [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
jQuery is really good because, unlike some other frameworks, it doesn't lock you into its little world. You're still coding in javascript, and jQuery is just a really handy set of functions to help you out with just the really frustrating parts. It's really important to use a framework nowadays because of the vast gulf there is in the behavior between the different browsers. Frameworks eliminate hours of debugging by presenting just a single simple interface to do many common tasks, that someone else has already debugged to work cross browser. In my opinion, it should be difficult to argue AGAINST using a framework, simply because frameworks save so much time - and time is money! What are the arguments against using a framework? If there's something about frameworks' that just rubs your colleagues the wrong way, perhaps look into base2.js, IE7.js and IE8.js by Dean Edwards. They're basically implementations of the standard w3c dom interfaces, such that if a browser doesn't support the standard correctly, his framework fills in the gap. With that, there's no visible signs of a framework, just a consistant cross browser dom api. That's the basic principle anyway. I haven't tried it, myself, so I can't tell you how well it really works. On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been trying to convince people here at work to use JQuery for UI, but most are reluctant, because it's a framework. Any good arguments of Why it is still OK to use JQuery? Anya V. Gerasimchuk Web Designer, IT - Web Shared Services UNIFI Information Technology [EMAIL PROTECTED] (513) 595 -2391 Aubrey Morrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/18/2008 12:04 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly Simon, Get into jQuery man. Plain old javascript just doesn't cut it. Best library I have used. Bit of a learning curve but well worth getting your head around. Have fun: http://jquery.com/ Regards Aubrey Simon wrote: Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, and by this I mean not filling my page with onclick and sending hrefs to #. But instead abstracting it all into the .js file and keeping my markup clean. I've followed the book by Jeremy Keith called DOM Scripting which teaches just that but it only goes so far. Everywhere else I look seems to have all the old school techniques which I want to shy away from. Does anyone have any resources? Thanks so much Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***[attachment aubrey.vcf deleted by Anya Gerasimchuk/UnionCentral] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Chrome JavaScript features - not speed
Just playing around in the console..
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 1:56 AM, Keryx Web [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Concerning Chrome, I have some unanswered questions about V8.
Exactly what JavaScript features does it support? (This is NOT a question
about it's speed.)
The release statememt simply says that it follows the EcmaScript 3.0
standard, but we all know that it is quirky in places and that current
browsers deviate from it in some of those. With Mozilla leading the pack and
Opera and Webkit/Squirrelfish following closely, there also are a slew of
additions, a.k.a. JavaScript 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, etc.
Has anyone tested if V8 supports things like:
- Array extras
It's got the Array extras from 1.6, but not 1.8 (reduce)
- Getters and setters
Yes, it's got those. Though strangely with __defineGetter__,
__defineSetter__, and array extras, and any other native function
I've tried, the toString function outputs actual source code instead
of just function () { [native code] } like most other
implementations. Not sure whether it's C code or javascript code in
the functions.
- Array and string generics
You can apply array functions to strings, if that's what you mean.
- Generators and iterators
Nope
- Expression closures
I don't know how you could have javascript without those. Pretty much
every website would break. Event handlers would be impossible.
- Array comprehensions
don't know
- Block scope with let
nope
Etc
Don't know about that either.
Lars Gunther
(No I've not had the time to test myself)
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Re: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 8:55 PM, David McKinnon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David I think that nobody has to have said it. It is simply a fact that is the easiest way to code. If you need an expert to tell you which way is best then you probably haven't tried it the other way around. Let me frame it in a metaphore. You're a teacher with 4 students, 3 of them are really good students, but the fourth is kind of slow, and has difficulty understanding instructions, and is frequently found making up his own little engish dailecs 4 u 2 reed. What approach would you take with this class? Do you start out by writing out the lesson in the dumbed down dialect, and hope that you don't bring down the level of the whole class by doing so? Or do you write the lesson in well structured english, and put dumbed down parentheticals to explain the difficult parts for the slow kid? In short, IE is a bad, outdated, dumb browser, and if you code for IE first, you run the risk of writing in a browser ebonics that make your pages look dumb to the other browsers, and you end up using slang words that none of the other browsers can understand properly. it's better to target the standards compliant browsers first (the ones that agree on a single language), and then dumb it down for the dumb browser. So, an appeal to an authority figure on this matter is not necessary. One only needs to look at the facts- And the evidence of the rather tenuous position many large companies now find themselves in when they can't upgrade from internet explorer 6 because all their intranet pages were authored to work ONLY in IE6. This is a tenuous position, because of the gaping security deficits in IE6 that put any large deployment in dire risk. sooner or later MS is going to stop supporting IE6, and then where will they be? So there's another argument: It's better to code to standards, because to depend on a single browser from a single company for your large investment is foolish. I'm sure you can come up with your own arguments, but yeah, it's also just easier to code in firefox first and then hack for IE. Firefox has fewer bugs, and is updated more frequently, and isn't trying to hold onto an illegal monopoly by pushing mutually indecipherable dialects, as microsoft does and continues to do. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript to change pages web standards question
Though really I'm not sure why you need javascript at all for this particular application. It would be much easier to just ditch the javascript, and code straight standards compliance. You would lose nothing, since the javascript you're proposing adds nothing. (unless I'm misunderstanding, you're using javascript to replicate the functionality of a link? Why?) This is coming from someone who loves javascript. Nevertheless, here's how I'd do it: modify the php script to take a url ? parameter called something like ahah. When the parameter is not present, render the whole page, with the template and everything, along with the appropriate content from the provided page number. When ahah is set to true, render the content without the template, for the benefit of the javascript. Code the javascript so it attaches the appropriate javascript function call to the onclick of the next page link, and remember to return false from that function to suppress the natural link behavior. In the function call the javascript is to pass the ahah parameter set to true when it retrieves the results of the php script. Then the php script would render without the template, in a format that you can easily insert into the dom of the current page. Then use a JS library called Really Simple History to push in a new history state for that state change. That way you're not breaking the back button or the bookmark button. Remember also to code your javascript to save its state in a hash, that is the part of the URL that comes after #, which is accessable from window.location.hash. Really Simple History will probably help you do that. On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 7:27 AM, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So here is a question. Was recently fixing some errors on a site I took over. We have a page that produces a list of accounts and limits it to x number of people per page. Then we have another form element that chooses which page of data we view. Javascript is used so when we change the element from page 1 to page 2 it calls a php script that does a new query for the next x number of people and displays the results on that page. In this case its an intranet app so I know everyone will have a mouse and javascript enabled but how would you code if you wanted to go to web standards and have a fallback. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript to change pages web standards question
Oops, I missed the bit about the form element. In that case, everything I just said, except add a Submit button to your original form element, and an action set to the path of your php script, and the method set to get, the name of your paging element set to match the name of the parameter that the PHP script accepts, and the values of the parameters set to match the values the script accepts. with the javascript, you can remove the submit button, and attach your function to the on change. Or you could ditch the javascript and the form element and just use A tags for your page interlinking. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] [at]font-face confusion
The @font-face rule does appear in CSS 2.0, but not in 2.1. CSS 2.1 is a revision of CSS 2.0 made in response to a lack of implementation of certain features in CSS 2.0, so 2.1 closer resembles what is implemented. (however still plenty in 2.1 that is not perfectly implemented) @font-face reappears in CSS3 as you point out. In terms of browser support, Internet explorer has supported @font-face since IE 5.5. However, only the proprietary .EOT font format is supported. There is a free tool available on microsoft's website for creating EOT files. More information about this tool is available here: http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft3/default.htm Netscape version 6 (I think) supported @font-face, but support was removed from mozilla by the time firefox rolled around, and has not been added back to this day. Safari has supported @font-face for truetype fonts since version 3.1. This may encourage other browsers to follow suit, probably beginning with opera (if they have not already done so), and eventually firefox. On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 10:33 PM, Love Web Design [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I wonder if anyone knows of or can advise on the following: I have been asked by a client to embed a font on their website - this is a custom made truetype font, also something I have not been asked to do before. I have therefore took to my books/research to look it up but am coming across conflicting information. I am finding information on the internet and in the books that says [at]font-face has been deprecated in css2.1 but have found many references to web fonts for css3 using [at]font-face but with reference to little or no browser support! I wonder if anyone has come across this recently, has a working solution or can advise or clarify? Many thanks in advance, Sarah *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] [at]font-face confusion
Sorry I gave some bad version numbers here. (I was pulling numbers out my ass, memory is difficult) embedded font support actually began in IE4, and netscape 4. As I pointed out, it is not currently supported in firefox, (including firefox 3) However other typography solutions exist such as SIFR. (google it) On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 10:56 PM, Breton Slivka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The @font-face rule does appear in CSS 2.0, but not in 2.1. CSS 2.1 is a revision of CSS 2.0 made in response to a lack of implementation of certain features in CSS 2.0, so 2.1 closer resembles what is implemented. (however still plenty in 2.1 that is not perfectly implemented) @font-face reappears in CSS3 as you point out. In terms of browser support, Internet explorer has supported @font-face since IE 5.5. However, only the proprietary .EOT font format is supported. There is a free tool available on microsoft's website for creating EOT files. More information about this tool is available here: http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft3/default.htm Netscape version 6 (I think) supported @font-face, but support was removed from mozilla by the time firefox rolled around, and has not been added back to this day. Safari has supported @font-face for truetype fonts since version 3.1. This may encourage other browsers to follow suit, probably beginning with opera (if they have not already done so), and eventually firefox. On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 10:33 PM, Love Web Design [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I wonder if anyone knows of or can advise on the following: I have been asked by a client to embed a font on their website - this is a custom made truetype font, also something I have not been asked to do before. I have therefore took to my books/research to look it up but am coming across conflicting information. I am finding information on the internet and in the books that says [at]font-face has been deprecated in css2.1 but have found many references to web fonts for css3 using [at]font-face but with reference to little or no browser support! I wonder if anyone has come across this recently, has a working solution or can advise or clarify? Many thanks in advance, Sarah *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] MA in web development
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Marius Milcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HCI, Databases, Dynamic Programming, (X)HTML, CSS, Usability, Design Methodologies etc. and, as an entry requirement, that this knowledge come from a relevant computing degree. M I know that is how universities typically work, and it's silly to expect the web sections of universities to work any other way. So consider this with a grain of salt, as an unrelated rant. But it strikes me as foolish to assume that those skills could *only* come from a computing degree, and at least twice as foolish to assume that they're *likely* to have come from a computing degree. Do CS degrees really include design and usability? Do any of them actually teach database fundamentals anymore, or do they just teach oracle? Do any teach design, or do they just teach illustrator and photoshop, do they teach dynamic programming, or do they teach Java or c#? Do you know of any undergraduate university course whose curriculum actually matches up to the demands that web professionals face in the real world? (if you do I'd like to know about it!), or are most of them really just lopsided short sighted, vendor sponsored courses, as I've seen in the piles of complaints and evidence? If I were hiring, or deciding who is qualified to enter post graduate studies, the presence of a degree would be the last thing I would check. Actual measurable competency is far more important, and a degree hardly guarantees that. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Flash on top of Flash
On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 6:01 PM, Anthony Milner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I have two flash files - 1 contains a flash menu the other contains an animation. We are trying to position them on top of each other... I don't know, I might be mistaken, but given that this is the web standards group mailing list, I thought we were supposed to discourage this sort of behavior. You could solve all kinds of problems by just not having a flash menu to begin with. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] re: generate data
On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Accessibility, though in a sense is trivially easy once you know it That would not even be true if it was possible to 'know it', which it isn't. Accessibility isn't just a bunch of facts that you have to learn, and it's not just about compliance with the WCAG checkpoints. That's a good starting point but it only tells you if a website *should* be accessible. To assess whether a website *actually is* accessible you need to understand how people will perceive and interact with the content. That requires understanding of user agents, hardware platforms, assistive technologies and all kinds of disabilities. It also requires the ability to balance the conflicting needs of different stakeholders. It requires us to keep learning and reassessing our viewpoints as all these factors change and new technologies and design techniques emerge. Maybe it is trivial when you know all that, but I don't think any of us know enough to start thinking that way. Steve Here, I used the phrase in a sense perhaps, to try to capture more meaning than it was capable of holding. There are, as you have pointed out two ways of knowing accessibility. You can know how to build your site such that it should be accessable according to the standards which assume that all user agents are following the standards. Then also there's the more difficult and expensive kind of accessability where you actually test whether your target users can really use the site or not in reality rather than just the theoretical scenario that the standards describe. When I said in a sense I meant the first kind. The kind that is trivially easy once you know all the techniques and standards. It is particularly easy in comparison to the second kind. The first kind is still seen as difficult and costly to many developers who may not even be aware of the second kind. Nevertheless, accessibility of the first kind is worth doing, and is trivially easy once you know how to do it. Accessibility of the second kind is also worth doing. But in a world where many developer cultures have not even come to grips with accessibility of the first kind, accessibility of the second kind is a tough sell. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] re: generate data
I don't really feel like participating in the dramatic part of this- But I can answer some of the questions about javascript. On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 6:53 PM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i'm more of a designer than a developer. my knowledge of javascript is limited. i am currently reading: javascript, the definitive guide by david flanagan. help me out here please, if i'm off base or need more information. i understand that javascript is a programming language. correct i understand that javascript is needed to pass information from a form to a data base for storage or retrieval of data. Incorrect- Javascript is absolutely not needed for this. In fact, I would actively discourage this usage, because it makes forms inaccessable to clients without javascript. (Even though I do quite like javascript most of the time) i also understand there are more uses for javascript than my above remark, but, again, my limited understanding of javascript draws a blank for other uses. Javascript is basically a tool to allow website authors to add browser features that are not built in to the browser. That's how I see it anyway. That's not exactly how most people use it, or think of it. i don't understand why someone would code a page and use javascript that would make the page not available without it. It's not strictly the usage of javascript that makes the page inaccessable, it's the page's dependance on it. If you think of javascript like I do- A tool for adding features- then the page still needs to be able to work without those features. The reasons for someone making a page that doesn't work without javascript are complicated, but it basically boils down to how the author thinks about what a webpage is, and how it works. I've spoken to the author for instance, of www.eventliving.com. That website does not work at all without javascript- And there's really no reason that it can't. The issue is that the guy who programmed it had a background in Java application development- Not web development. He seemed to think of a website as a specialized kind of program. He didn't seem to know, for instance that the distinction between clientside javascript, and serverside java code was important. The goal was simply to get the website to work in IE, just like with any other program, the goal might be to simply get it to work in windows. There was no awareness of accessibility issues. But that's just one case. Someone might alternatively be perfectly aware of accessibility issues, and there are other reasons for depending on javascript. Accessibility, though in a sense is trivially easy once you know it, is percieved by a lot of people as being quite difficult. Application responsiveness might be a top priority, and the author simply sees no reason to make the site work without javascript. would someone like to point me to some references on how to use javascript in a standards compliant way and have a go at the above question? hijax http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/schedule/paper/29 dwain *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] an accessible question: server-side vs client-side validation
It should be made clear that there really is no such thing as Client Side Validation. What we are talking about here is client side form assistance. The goal of validation is to make 100% sure that the data you are recieving is of the correct type, and contains no extraneous data or security exploits BEFORE depositing it into a database or running other type sensitive functions across it. This is why you must perform validation on the server side, because that's the part you can control, so you can make sure from there that the data is correct. There is absolutely no certainty about whether the data you are receiving from the client is valid, regardless of what javascript you have running. The data could be coming from anywhere! not just desktop browsers with javascript. Thus, there can be no such thing as client side validation. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
Microsoft is and has undoubtedly used the coercive power of their market dominance to interfere with OTHER businesses. What you are presenting here is a double standard. You are saying that governments (whose accountability is to the benefit of the public at large) should not be allowed to interfere, while it's perfectly okay for a private organization, (whose accountability is to its shareholders) to interfere with other people's property. For the most part, yes, healthy competition is a good thing, but the system can get sick, and exploitive, and it's precisely that situation that the government exists for to begin with- to protect the interests of the public. And in this case, getting IE to support standards is to the benefit of the public, because Microsoft is certainly impeding progress in this field, much to the detriment of everyone, but to the benefit of its own business. That my friend is private interfering with public, and that's where your free market utopia falls down. On Dec 17, 2007 1:17 PM, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again this isn't about supporting one company over another. It's about using the coercive power of government to control someone elses private property (which is what a business is) I don't like a lot of how MSFT does things. But they don't control the world. Frontpage died while Dreamweaver dominates the web design market. Not every website is developed in Visual Studio, some of us use PHP. Not every email is sent on an exchange server. I use Vista today and believe if MSFT keeps making such bloated OS's someone else will show up one day with a better mousetrap and MSFT will find itself losing market share in that area as well. Ask yourself where have you ever seen government controlled economies beat a free market one. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Christian Montoya wrote: On Dec 16, 2007 8:27 PM, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Look how Firefox has grown to 16% of the market. I think that shows how you are not correct. I also suspect that Open Office is going to start challenging Microsoft as well. Especially is MSFT succeeds with establishing good copy protection Didn't OOo file a complaint regarding Microsoft's Open XML format? I know they started a petition because Microsoft bucked their ODT format and came up with their own, which has been rammed through the standards approval process instead of ODT. So even Microsoft plays the standards system, and OOo appeals to the same powers-that-be as Opera. Do you follow the news about the companies you support? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Idiot's guide to JavaScript
On Nov 28, 2007 12:14 AM, Martin Heiden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 at 13:50 Web Standards Group wrote: On 15/11/07 (11:15) Ross said: document.write inline event handlers (like onclick) browser sniffing In summary, then, does anyone recommend me hanging onto Visual Quickstart Guide: JavaScript and Ajax (6th Ed.) or should I just ditch it and buy Jeremy Keith's Dom Scripting book instead? If you are just starting, you should read a book for beginners that introduces you to to language and it's structure. Learn about objects, functions, datatypes, control structures ... If you find one of the keywords, that Russ listed before, your alarm bells should ring. Keep on reading, but start thinking why this is bad. (You can always return to the list and ask...) Once you feel familiar with the language, switch to Jeremy's book. It's very well written, but you should have an idea how JS works. You will find the answers to your questions in this book. When you know about JS and DomScripting it's time to jump on the AJAX-train, but not before you know the basics. Good luck! Martin I'm sorry if this comes across as inflammatory (if this post pisses you off just feel free to ignore it. I have bad luck with the tone of my emails sometimes). But... is this really how anyone here came to learn javascript? Really? Or is it just how you wish you learned it? Personally, I have a very difficult time retaining knowledge unless it proves immediately useful- and knowing only a few javascript control structures doesn't strike me as something that you can put to use right away. Most of the people I know who know javascript- came to know it by jumping right in and trying to get some specific thing done. Either they had a project that called for it, and they found some dodgy tutorial, and got it out the door, or they had to pick through someone else's javascript. It's only in the context of this initial taste of javascript that these reccomendations for or against certain techniques make any sense. Otherwise you may as well be talking about the finer points of martian politics. As for this Visual Quickstart Guide: JavaScript and Ajax (6th Ed.) in all probability, given my general previous experience with visual quickstart guides, it's probably awful, and innaccurate, and written by someone who is only barely competant. However, I think you should read it anyway, especially if it gets you to the point of getting something (anything) *actually working* very fast. You can worry about best practice after you get the hang of getting things working. I say this because I have no belief in the concept that knowledge can corrupt, and that somehow innaccurate information will poison your mind. This only happens if you're a gullible idiot, and I tend towards giving people more credit than assuming that they are a gullible idiot. Of course if you don't feel like reading it, then don't. You have the reccomendations here for the books that have good information (Unless nobody has yet reccomended David Flanagan's Javascript: The Definative Guide). When you're ready for good information, that is, you have a specific problem that calls for a correct solution, then go for those books. Otherwise, read whatever gets you into action, and actually working in the language the quickest. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Firefox is a pushover
It's a bit pedantic, but it's actually IE that has this wrong. Since
Firefox's ecmascript implementation is the basis for the ecmascript
standard- any deviation from firefox that IE exhibits is by definition
breaking the standard. Cute eh?
On Nov 22, 2007 10:12 AM, Karl Lurman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Firefox is also a little naughty when it comes to Javascript parsing.
A friend of mine pointed out how he always gets caught out when
declaring objects in JSON:
var JsonObject{
objectFunction:function() {
// blah
}, // extra comma here...
}
Firefox will happily parse this object without complaint, while IE
will throw a syntax error. The syntax error may rear its head in
firefox if you minify your Javascript. All of a sudden, your
once-working Javascript will start to fail in Firefox too...
Karl
On Nov 22, 2007 5:22 AM, Kurt Lovelace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
James' advice is it -- there are gobs of plug-ins for FireFox.
There are plug-ins to not only validate HTML but whole singular
toolkits for working with the entire plethora of site spewage:
cookies, CSS, images, links, Id tags, div orders, stack levels,
anchors, block sizes, frames, headers, deprecated elements, feed
validation, section 508 validation, Dom inspectors, speed reports, etc
cetera.
One FireFix plug-in does it all: Web Developer by Chris Pederick
located at
Http://www.chrispederick.com/work/web-developer
Is the über-plugin you are wanting.
I routinely use it to deconstruct sites and quickly resolve issues.
Regarding closed tags...not all need closing. Let not my comment start
a spec war discussion please.
The Best,
-=KuRt=-
Kurt Lovelace
MindRoot Media Inc
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 21, 2007, at 9:54 AM, Chris Price [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I build websites on a Mac and have to check my websites on another
machine in order to view them in IE.
I experience the usual issues with IE applying css differently than
Firefox but my biggest frustrations, lately, have come from errors
in my html that Firefox has happily ignored but IE has faithfully
shown up.
Its traditional to knock IE6 for its non-compliance but its done a
good job of validating my html lately.
I would like to get my Firefox to toughen up and show up errors in
the html without having to submit it to a validator?
The problem usually comes from missing closing tags.
Kind Regards
--
Chris Price
Choctaw
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.choctaw.co.uk
Tel. 01524 825 245
Mob. 0777 451 4488
Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder
while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional
~~~
-+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+-
~~~
Choctaw Media Limited is a company
registered in England and Wales
with company number 04627649
Registered Office:
Lonsdale Partners,
Priory Close,
St Mary's Gate,
Lancaster LA1 1XB
United Kingdom
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Re: [WSG] Idiot's guide to JavaScript
Javascript is a big subject, and generally can't be summarized or simplified sensibly unless there's some particular aspect of it that you're especially interested in. Are you looking for something like a quick overview of the language itself, or perhaps some tutorial for getting a particular task done? Perhaps a better question to ask is, why do you need JavaScript? The answer to that will inform what kind of tutorial to look for. -Breton On Nov 14, 2007 6:18 AM, Rob Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi guys, Am comfortable with HTML/CSS and accessibility in general, but struggle with JavaScript. I'm not a developer by trade, am a business type (sales and marketing) so most oft he stuff is well over my head. I am looking for a really basic, plain English guide to JavaScript. Either on or offline will do. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance Rob -- Rob Mason t/a Sponge Project www.spongeproject.co.uk [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] First Ajax problem
You may also be running into the same domain policy, On 11/2/07, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/1/07, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Strange to be answering my own post but I have done some more testing. I have verified the PHP page that Ajax calls works correctly by running it separate. I have also verified AJAX works on my browser by running another ajax script. For some reason this script is not being called by the browser. Firebug lets you debug javascript: http://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1843 usually when an AJAX call isn't happening it's because your JS has an error and it's stopping early. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] javascript help
Do you have any specific questions, or do you just want us to do your
homework for you?
-Breton.
On 11/1/07, Alexander Uribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi there,
I have some questions for an assignment that I can't figure out. If anyone
could be of assistance that would be much appreciated.
1)Which instruction will change the background colour of an element?
A document.getElementById(t).backgroundColor = yellow
*B* document.getElementById(t).bgcolor = yellow
*C* document.getElementById(t).style.backgroundColor = yellow
*D* document.getElementById(t).style.color = yellow
2)
Which are the valid 'for' statement(s)
*A* for x = 1 to 10
*B* for(x=0; x10; x++)
*C* for(x=0, y=10; x10; x++, y--)
*D* for(x=0, x10, x++)
3)
Which are the INCORRECT math equations
*A* a =+ 20;
*B* a = a + 20;
*C* a = 20 / 4;
*D* a++;
*E* a != 30;
*F* a =* 4;
*G* a = 3;
4)
Which are the preferred methods to use when Javascript has been disabled ?
*A* noscript/noscript
*B* a href=# onCick=myFunction();Show Page/a
*C* a href=page1.htmShow Page/a
*D* a href=page1.htm onCick=myFunction();Show Page/a
5)
An array can be initialised by
*A* var a = new Array(ab,b,c);
*B* var a = [a,b,c];
*C* var a = (a,b,c);
*D* var a = a[a,b,c];
6)
When you tab into a form control (i.e. a textbox) what event is executed
*A* onMouseOut
*B* onClick
*C* onBlur
*D* onFocus
7)
What syntax is needed to initalise a Regular Expression
*A* var re = RegExp();
*B* var re = new RegExp();
*C* var re = regexp;
*D* var re = new regexp();
8)
What does the following function do
function x(y){
document.getElementById(y).style.display;
a = (z=='block') ? 'none' : 'block';
z.a;
}
*A* hide or shows a div tag
*B* hide or shows an element
*C* hide or shows a paragraph
*D* hide or show a table
9)
Which cross browser (but not W3C DOM compliant instructions) can be used
to find the Height and Width of an object on a web page *A* clientWidth,
clientHeight
*B* scrollWidth, scrollHeight
*C* scrollTop, scrollLeft
*D* offsetWidth, offsetHeight
10)
If Javascript has been disabled by the user then
*A* inline scripting will still work
*B* only mouse events will still work
*C* AJAX will still be useable
*D* no scripts will be executed
Cheers.
--
Join Lavalife for free. What are you waiting
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Re: [WSG] Opera for Nintendo Wii and CSS
Opera has the best support for handheld and projection stylesheets of any of the major browsers, and this is a fact which they are most proud of. I don't know about SVG, but you can test, because opera desktop has a mode you can activate in which it simulates opera mini. Also, since it's a java program, you can run opera mini itself on the desktop as well. On 10/25/07, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seeing as it looks like your developing for the browser without actually having a Wii. I believe the PAL resolution is 480p (720x480). Obviously also just take care not to have anything too fancy as it may be difficult to interact with. Geoff Pack wrote: I've been looking around the Opera site, but can't find answers to the following: Does Opera on the Wii support handlheld and/or projection stylesheets? SVG? Also, is SVG supported on the Nintendo DS browser? Thanks, Geoff. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
Would you want the mail templates to use standards and seperation of concerns? Last time I looked, it was well nigh impossible to get an email that was standards based AND rendered properly in virtually *any* email client. Im sure they could have made the templates standards based, in which case, the only people who would be able to see them is other apple mail users. Since they advertise that they use standard html that renders in any email client I would say that they are probably a mess of inline css and tables, and possibly divs. Just remember back to what the output of iWeb was like. On 10/23/07, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keryx Web wrote: When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its HTML/CSS rendering engine. In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards, accessibility and separation of concerns in mind? I think it's fair to assume that it'll use Webkit as its rendering engine http://developer.apple.com/opensource/internet/webkit.html P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in *any* mail client. This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because there's no standard of support for that. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
Apologies- I didn't mean my original post as a direct response to patrick, merely a response to the thread. On 10/23/07, Breton Slivka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in *any* mail client. This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because there's no standard of support for that. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards
I'm not entirely sure. The HTML/plain text announcements we send out are standards-based with one exception - we embed the CSS in the body section. These mails display perfectly in Outlook, OE, Windows Mail, Apple Mail, and Thunderbird. The problem with Outlook, I believe, is more to do with what it generates, rather than what it can read/display. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design Have you tried outlook 2007 Lately? the way it reads/displays html has been THE issue ever since it was released. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
These are some of the worst analogies I've ever seen. The target website is not a work of art, it's not a mountain, it's not a car, it's not a drive up ATM, it's not a building. Not to mention the slippery slopes, like Well if they force Target to fix their website, next they'll be forcing it on ALL websites everywhere! and Well if they force target to make their site accessable to blind people, what's next? People who can't speak english? It's amazing how much these things sound like arguments, and seem to make sense, but every one of them is a logical fallacy of some kind. What we are talking about here, is a Catalog of products, using a technology which is inherently easy to make accessable. It does not require a huge investment of material. The catalog in this case, is used for online purchasing, or making purchasing decisions before entering a physical store. We're not talking about a grand visual experience, or a masterpeice of literature here, or any other such thing which would allow arguments about freedom of speach, or expression. Target is a business, and they ain't in the business of making art. We are talking about a business that, despite one of the comments on that blog, HAS made a concious decision to exclude a portion of the populace from using their website. I know this because I've seen the reasoning before. Who cares about blind people? they're a small part of the population anyway. Let's just make the whole thing flash. So we're talking about target conciously discriminating against a portion of the populace from purchasing goods from their store, or finding information about their products, so they could have the perception of saving money, by not having to hire competant web developers. This is not a freedom of choice issue. It's an issue of choosing the illusion of money, over people. And as we can see now, it was a bad choice, not only because the money they could have spent on accessiblity will now be spent on lawyers, but they also lost the potential money from those lost customers. The money they choose truly was illusory. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
On 10/4/07, Chris Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Speaking of ' logical fallacy' If you have an argument, make it. Don't assume that just because you think you're clever and right, that everyone else automatically will too. On 10/4/07, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, they are a business. They are trying to make money. Like all of us. All of their decisions were conscious and based on the premise to make money: use flash for marketing purposes. Save money by getting in a crappy web development company. Save money by not targeting a select group of people. So what? Are you blaming them for running a business? We all have to make these kind of decisions: how do we save money, who are the customer groups we are trying to address... If you don't make those decisions you are a crappy business person and your business won't exist for very long. Whether their decisions were right or wrong in our eyes is not the point. They have got the right to make those decisions because they are a private company. Do they have that right? Are you sure? If they had a sign out front their store that said No short people allowed would you argue for their right to make that decision? If a blind person showed up to their store, and the staff decided to not give that person the right change, would you argue that it's the blind person's fault for being stupid enough to try to buy from target in the first place? Would anybody go and sue the local grocery store for having an inaccessible website? No. Because nobody would expect them to spend much time or money or effort into building a website that works. So where do you draw the line? You draw it at the company that you do reasonably expect to have a website that works. A company that obviously has the resources to make their website accessable, but conciously decided to exclude a particular segment of the population out of ignorance. a company earns millions of dollars then they should suddenly have to be liable for making their websites accessible? But if the company only earns a few thousands of dollars then it's all fine? If you have enough resources that making your website accessable to disabled is trivial, you should absolutely make that investment. To do otherwise is simply discrimination. To compare it to a business that obviously doesn't have those resources, and couldn't reasonably be expected to do so, you are making a flawed argument, with a flawed comparison. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
So you reckon that businesses should have all the rights of a person, but none of the responsibilities? On 10/4/07, Jim Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm with Chris on this one. Speaking only of businesses int he United States, no government entity should be telling a private business what it must do and that includes telling a business it must provide health coverage, or spend a certain percentage on it and what the covereage must include. If that business accepts government monies, then the ball game changes. Of course the private businesses should do some things, accessible websites may be one of them but it is not the governments job to force it. It has NOTHING to do with cost or anything else. Those arguements do not even enter the picture. Bottom line is the government has no business sticking its nose in a private business as long as health and safety issues are not the issue. It doesn't even need to know how much money a business makes except we are forced to report it for our out of control IRS requirements. Oh how we need SR/HR 25 Too much said already. Not sure this is a Web Standards topic any longer Jim Davies *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash With Jaws
The mouse isn't the only option for navigation in flash. Last time I used it, there were methods for reading keystrokes as well. Maybe the disconnect between the way people navigate with jaws, and the way people would navigate within the flash would be intolerable, I don't know. It seems to me though that jaws wouldn't be a requirement for accessible flash, with the right designer in charge. I'll will accept that I'm wrong, if I am, but you haven't presented any evidence that would make me believe that I am wrong. Perhaps I am stubborn, I like to see possibility where others have thrown up their hands and given up. On 9/27/07, Jonathan Poissant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Breton: In my previous Job we build sites for kids to read be able to read stories online in Flash. Accessibility was a major issue that we where only able to get over by having a HTML version of the sites, even if our stories where narrated. This is because we where unable to have Jaws navigate in the flash application itself, and having a visually impaired person use the mouse to navigate, even with roll-over sound, is not what we would call accessible. Would it be possible to have something work with Jaws? I would say yes. Would it be easy to navigate, enjoyable and worth the time? I don't think so. On 9/26/07, Breton Slivka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This might sound silly, but here it is anyway: Flash can do more than just graphics- You can also play sounds and manipulate them, to a certain extent with code. I've always wondered what the possibilities would be if someone applied themselves to making not just a website which is merely accessible with a screen reader- but something that is truly enjoyable for a blind person to use. Since I have never needed to use software using a screenreader, I don't know how easy or difficult it is to use software like flash to do something like this. But if you figure you are up to the challenge, I would be very interested in the results of creating an audio website. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash With Jaws
This might sound silly, but here it is anyway: Flash can do more than just graphics- You can also play sounds and manipulate them, to a certain extent with code. I've always wondered what the possibilities would be if someone applied themselves to making not just a website which is merely accessible with a screen reader- but something that is truly enjoyable for a blind person to use. Since I have never needed to use software using a screenreader, I don't know how easy or difficult it is to use software like flash to do something like this. But if you figure you are up to the challenge, I would be very interested in the results of creating an audio website. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using XLST to define microformats
Hey Paul, I'm not 100% sure what you mean by defining microformats as an xml namespace, but I do know that the microformats community uses the x2v stylesheets as the reference implementation for many microformats, including hcalendar and hcard. http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/ That's about as close to a definition of microformats in xslt as you're likely to find. I'm certain if you look around microformats.org you'll find xslt sheets for the other microformats as well. In addition, I understand that it's perfectly possible to embed microformats in an xhtml namespace in other xml formats. The impression I get is that suda's x2v sheets will handle that as welll, but i've never tested, so I'm likely wrong. -Breton On 8/27/07, Paul Minty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, my first post, so: I'm Paul Minty, I do the IA, project management, some front-end development and even a little copywriting for a small web design and development studio in Melbourne. Does anyone know of an effort to define micro-formats using an XML name space and an XLST? I think that approach would be a great way to achieve some semantic mark-up using the existing XHTML namespace. It's how I prefer to process large amounts of data when we produce a larger web-site and I think it is a technique that could be applied in a more general way. thanks Paul *Paul Minty **Director* *mint**leaf studio** * We design create stylish websites Post: Box 6 108 Flinders Street Melbourne VIC 3000 Level 2 108 Flinders Street Melbourne T. 03 9662 9344 F. 03 9662 9255 M. 0418 307 475 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mintleafstudio.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using XLST to define microformats
One more thing: the microformats mailing list http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss/ Is just as friendly and open as this one, just as easy to join, but has the added advantage that it's full of experts on microformats. -Breton *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
On 7/12/07, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but that's still graphic design of the appearance of Websites, NOT Website Design. No, it's Graphic Design, Not Graphic Design of the Appearance of Websites. Qualifying it in such a way confuses matters, and is terribly innaccurate. It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility (using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control \ Why on earth not? What definition of graphic design do you have which excludes those things? Certainly not one that I've given. And no, the visual design should not be the first thing to consider in meeting a client's requirements. Too many bad Websites have been produced in which graphic designers who have pretended to be Website designers and placed the visual design first and insist that this is paramount. Who said anything about Visual design? I explicitly said that graphic design is *Not* about the visual, or aesthetic appearance. As it stands, I am concerned with Graphic design, and you are unconcerned with visual design of the appearance of things. , which I am largely unconcerned with as well. The only disagreement here is that I disagree that you reacted to anything that was in my post. On the other hand, if you or anyone would like to learn what graphic design is (Hint, it's not making things pretty. Hint hint.) may I suggest Meggs' History of Graphic Design. This is also a good book for the original poster. Others are Eric Speikerman's Don't Steal Sheep, and Robert Bringhurst's Elements of Typographic Style, which admittedly are only about typography, which is just one aspect of Graphic Design. I will leave it at that. If you would want to have further discussion of this with me off list, I would suggest at least humoring my premise Graphic Design's primary focus is not visual, and you will have a higher chance of learning something, such as what Graphic Design's primary focus is. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Making Accessible Flash
There's two approaches, one is to use the Hixie style flash embedding, and include your text/html content nested inside the inner object element. This content is visible to text browsers and google. This is demonstrable by searching for the string: FAIL (the browser should render some flash content, not this) , Which is what Hixie put in his original example. (Rather unfortunately, he didn't put in any useful text). The other approach is to author a standard's compliant page, with your text alternative in line, and use a javascript method such as FlashObject, or UFO to replace the text with a flash movie. Users with flash installed get the flash movie, users without either Javascript, or Flash will get standard html content. On 7/12/07, Micky Hulse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robby Jennings wrote: I'm in a situation where we're hosting externally created flash files on our page. When embedding these files, what is the best method for providing a text alternative? How much text alternatives are we talking here? More detail on what you need would help me. Are these complex applications with a lot of content, or do you just need to simply show alternative content if the flash file fails to load? -- Wishlists: http://snipurl.com/1gqpj Switch: http://browsehappy.com/ BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8 My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
This issue really pushes my buttons, I will admit. I had my rant (my initial post), and I naively believed that would be pretty much the end of it. I forgot that I push buttons when I'm ranting. I've even provided an out in my last post inviting people to continue this conversation off list. That didn't quite work out, so here we are still on list. The essential problem at this point is that since I opened with a rant, I've set myself up a hostile situation. Hostile situations are not ideal for explaining difficult and subtle concepts. I suggest, since this is a hostile context, (which I again admit is mostly my fault), that most people who would respond to me at this point would not do so because they are interested in what I have to say. There is a high risk, regardless of whatever I post, of simply continuing a back and fourth disagreement which would be inappropriate for this list. I offer two alternatives. 1. If you are honestly interested in learning about graphic design, read the books I suggested, as they are a more credible and coherent a source than I am. Far be it from me to put you off of correct information simply because it's coming from me, random internet nutter #8. 2. If you really just want to continue the conversation specifically with me, Please do so off list. Me being a bit irritated at someone's offhand comment may have been borderline on topic. Me making pronouncements about what I think graphic design is about is definitely not on topic, and I will not be lured into making a further ass out of myself. -Breton *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
On 7/12/07, Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not that this will necessarily address Marvin's issues, but I just couldn't let it go by :-) First, lets understand the different aspects of web development. 1) Web Design - This involves understanding colors, extensive knowledge in graphics applications such as photoshop, illustrator or fireworks. To which I'd say -- sorry, no, that's *graphic* design. Real web design addresses business needs, information architecture, user experience and interaction design. It's what enables creation of wireframes or monochrome undecorated prototypes for usability testing long before any graphic artist's involvement. Without that, you're just painting pictures in markup... IMO :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. Argghh no! the ignorance! Just stop going about thinking you know what you're talking about when it comes to Graphic Design! Graphic Design isn't Make it Purdy, Graphic design isn't Learn how to use photoshop. It's exactly that perception that leads to awful website after awful website. Certainly, aesthetic beauty is a *side effect* of the design process, but *do not* make the mistake of thinking that's what graphic design is. Graphic design for print design has four aspects: Client Needs Audience Expectations Process (Identifying the problem space, going through many iterations, selecting the best solutions, and iterative refinement. This involves a A knowledge of the principles of good typography, and the principles of good visual design of course, but it is not pure visual design) Craftsmanship The graphic design process on the web is no different. A Good graphic designer (one who is familiar with what graphic design actually is, rather than the ignorant stereotype you just displayed) Should be involved in the process as EARLY and as OFTEN as possible. Not in the last step as you suggest. *Most* of this Graphic Designer's time should be spent with pencils and paper, and not in Photoshop or Illustrator. A great deal of time evaluating the problem at hand, and iteratively simplifying the solution. This is graphic design. If this is not what you've found in graphic designers in the past, then you have accidentally hired a Stylist, or possibly an Illustrator, not a graphic designer. Please do not slander my profession in the future. And P.S. this is a little tongue in cheek, so don't take too much offense. But seriously, you are wrong about graphic design. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
On 7/12/07, Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: , you are wrong about graphic design. ..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer (or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed. For the vast majority of such positions, it's all about purty. :-) Seriously. I do know exceptions -- Darrell Sano, who I worked with at Sun, comes to mind -- but they're few and far between. Far too far. That is an error in the Ads you've seen, and in the Advertiser's understanding of Graphic Design being just as flawed as yours. This is not an error in my definition of Graphic Design. I will not dispute that many self proclaimed Graphic Designers hold the same flawed view. This is a serious problem, which may be too big for me to singlehandedly handle, but a problem nonethless. To give an analogy, one could easily advertise for an accountant who is proficient in the use of Quicken and TurboTax. However this would be a flawed advertisement, as proficiency in those programs does not a qualified accountant make. Nor does proficiency in photoshop make a qualified Graphic Designer, nor would proficiency in Dreamweaver make a qualified Web Developer, nor Proficiency in MySQL a qualified Database Designer. Indeed, a common view of Surgeons may be that all they do is cut people up and shift things around, discounting any knowledge they may have of human anatomy, or medical science. Now imagine if there were a bunch of surgeons running around getting hired who had the same flawed perspective. It would be very difficult for a proper surgeon to gain any sense of credibility wouldn't it? That problem is real in both Web Development, and Graphic Design. Given that it's something both fields have in common, I would expect us to be able to team up to fight such perceptions, but sadly this is not the case for practitioners in either profession, as they each suffer from the misperceptions of the other. It makes me sad. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Keeping state of behaviors
This is quite useful to me. Though I don't quite understand how it works. Is the iframe important to the functioning? Is there a way to do the same thing, but make the state bookmarkable? On 6/8/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I put this together, but I'm not sure it could be useful for anything... May be it could be used with Ajax stuff, when the back button is a concern. http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/keeping_state/keeping_track.html --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] css type loop
Tell that to this search engine: http://kitchen.technorati.com/search/ On 21/05/2007, at 9:31 PM, Rob Kirton wrote: More precisely, the use of id and class can only add semantic value to developers or to those who have to maintain the site. They have no bearing on real world semantics in terms of benefit derived by end users and page retrieval via search engines. To that end they are semantically neutral -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 21/05/07, Mordechai Peller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Novitski wrote: Mordechai, please elaborate on this point: how does HTML lose semantic value when ids classes are added? I think of ids classes as being semantically neutral or inert. When used properly, ids and classes add semantic value. (That ids and classes can add value is, in part, the basis for microformats.) For example, id=nav-main, id=footer, class=price all add value. However, there's values in scarcity. When ids and classes are scarce there is an implied value which is imparted because this element has one and that element doesn't. With class=bullet1, class=bullet2, class=bullet3, etc., their value is somewhat diluted. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] width of inline lists
you can try either inline-block, or instead of inline, float:left.
This is typically the solution I usually end up using.
On 20/05/2007, at 10:02 PM, Designer wrote:
Has anyone got a (simple) workaround for the fact that I want to
specify the width of each li in an inline list? (which is not
allowed).
I'm using the simple menu:
div#menu {
font : 13px Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;
text-align : left;
color: #333;
}
div#menu li{
width : 250px;
display : inline;
list-style-type : none;
}
div#menu a:link,
div#menu a:visited {
text-decoration : none ;
padding-top : 10px;
color : #333;
border-top : 5px solid #ddd;
}
div#menu a.active:link,
div#menu a.active:visited,
div#menu a:hover {
color : #090;
text-decoration : none;
border-top : 5px solid #090;
}
and, of course, the 'width : 250px' is just ignored. I've tried
setting a width on the a but that doesn't work either.
MUST I use a table?
--
Bob
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] css type loop
This might seem obvious, but have you considered combining them into
a single image, and adding them as a single background to the OL
instead?
On 17/05/2007, at 7:25 PM, Paul Collins wrote:
Hi all,
I recently had to add numerical bullet point graphics to an OL. This
meant I had to add an individual class and style to each bullet point
for each image, which can add up when you've got 20 bullets. I was
wondering, does anyone know more clever way of doing this in some kind
of a CSS loop, without using Jscript?!
Example:
CSS
li.bullet1 {background:url(images/bullet1.gif} no-repeat;}
li.bullet2 {background:url(images/bullet2.gif} no-repeat;}
HTML
li class=bullet1lorem ipsum/li
li class=bullet2lorem ipsum/li
Cheers
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Re: [WSG] Windows Vista Style Buttons
you can do it like this: http://meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/menus/demo.html But you should know that this UI pattern is a usability/accessability disaster, and usually a symptom of poor content organization. I would encourage better organization in order to avoid these altogether. On 28/04/2007, at 6:01 PM, Sagnik Dey wrote: Hi Everybody, I've following the queries in this group since long. The solutions provided are quite helpful to all. This is my first query How can i develop a menu just like in winvista...sublinks one...whenevr we hover a link an expandable image is displayed. I'm attaching an image to be more clear. Marken in red is the link. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/default.mspx -- :: Sagnik :: *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** vista.jpg *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Windows Vista Style Buttons
Right, but now that he knows what they're called, he can use google to find a link such as this: http://www.seoconsultants.com/css/menus/tutorial/ which has a fix for IE, or any of a number of other links on google, which also have fixes. Anyways, nothing wrong with IE users getting a slightly degraded experience, as long as they can still use and access the site. On 28/04/2007, at 8:31 PM, Designer wrote: Breton Slivka wrote: you can do it like this: http://meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/menus/demo.html But you should know that this UI pattern is a usability/ accessability disaster, and usually a symptom of poor content organization. I would encourage better organization in order to avoid these altogether. You should also note that these methods rely on the browser's ability to support hover on pseudo elements, which makes it utterly useless in the real world (where IE is king!). AFAIK, only mozilla will support this. (Incidentally, I was just amused to find that the Thunderbird spell checker doesn't know what Mozilla is, nor indeed, Thunderbird :-) ) -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] commenting javascript in script tags
On 26/04/2007, at 5:19 PM, Andrew Harris wrote: On 4/26/07, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you explain why the script snippet has to be in the head? Will it have some some adverse effect on other pages if in a common external file? If so, why can't it be in an additional .js file, called only by that page? OK, of course, it doesn't HAVE to be in the head, but in this case, it's much more convenient that way. I am rolling out a dreamweaver template that will be used on many thousands of pages. They all reference a central javascript, but occasionally a variable needs to be customised for certain pages. The variable is pretty much unique to the page, so while an external file could be created, it's pointless for one line of code... especially when dealing with a large number of users of varying skill levels - copy and paste code samples into an editable area in the head is nice and easy :-) -- Andrew Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.woowoowoo.com why not markup the variable as html and use dom scripting in the central script to pull out the variable from the individual pages? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] safari debugger
try Safari Enhancer. It enables you to turn on the hidden debug features built into safari, among a few other settings. On 14/03/2007, at 10:17 AM, Héctor Lupuche wrote: Hi Guys, I'm looking for a way to debug in Safari, I have tried Drosera but I'm unable to install, I have not any mac experience. I really will appreciate any help Regards, Hector Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger Get it now! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Web 2.0 Applications
Web 2.0 is a generalized marketing term used to describe a trend. The trend it is describing is about sites like flickr, del.icio.us, youtube, and even myspace, which utilize the network effect to let users produce the content for the website, and generate massive communities around content creation. In what way is faux finishes related to that? Is the site going to be about people logging in to upload photos of their own faux finishes? If instead, you are referring to the erroneous and frothing mad interpretation of the term Web 2.0, that is, to refer to sites that use ajax, another misunderstood and only vaguely related marketing term, Then, in what way does a site about faux finishes lend itself to ajax? As for the microformats, what do they have to do with bookmarks? My basic point is, you are approaching the problem of web development/ design from completely the wrong direction. Design the site first, and how it should operate, do user testing and user centric design. Decide what technologies are needed to achieve that dead last.You are doing it backwards. You've decided what technologies you want to use first, and seem to be intending to design the site around them. I think you will find that if you examine the successful Web 2.0 sites, that they used the user centric approach, not the technology centric approach. That's what's set them apart. Not ajax. Not microformats. Not shiny OS X inspired graphics. -Breton On 09/03/2007, at 3:27 AM, CK wrote: Hi, I've an opportunity to create a site specializing in faux finishes. This appears to lend itself to a web 2.0 application. Would someone provide examples in writing of commercial, preferably art related commercial web 2.0 applications? Interested in AJAX/DOM For updating/displaying finish data Micorformats possibly to bookmark finishes/collections Respectfully, CK *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards selling points
In my experience, it's a bad move to try and sell a client on the technology you intend to use. The more technologically unsavvy they are, the less interested they will be in what technology you are using. (Remember this is my experience). I've had better success determining what problems the client has, which can be solved by a website. I then base my presentation on exactly how and why a website is the best solution. Sometimes a website is only part of the solution. Sometimes it isn't the best solution at all, and is instead a solution looking for a problem. If standards, and best practice are part of the solution to their problems, then you barely need to think about how to sell them on it. Just describe why it's the best solution to whatever the problem is. In a commercial situation, it may be about maximizing profit by reducing maintenance costs. In a government situation, it may be compliance with laws, and accessibility issues. In summary, focus more on problems and solutions, rather than specific technologies. -Breton. On 09/03/2007, at 1:18 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. The job requires a cms, ill be using text pattern which I'm in the process of learning, because of this I dont know if ill be able to reach XHTML 1.0 Strict yet. I will just be building a standards compliant and accessible site- im not going to go to crazy with 14pt type. Also the client is a semi-state body-although there are no requirement here in Ireland for accessibility. -best kvnmcwebn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Content negotiated links: why so bad?
On 01/03/2007, at 9:31 AM, libwebdev wrote: Hi folks, I followed a recent thread here on how people manage their links, and I made a request to our organisation's webmaster to allow MultiViews for my department's website (which I manage, and which is part of a large public organisation). I have a penchant for short, usable URLs that don't show file names, and would like to link to /mydept/training/ rather than /mydept/training.htm. His response: paste My main concern would be with how content-negotiated links get handled by search engines (both Google and Thunderstone). Google sends the http accept header with text/html as its preference. Apache will serve whatever content best matches that. Thunderstone sends whatever accept header you set it to send, so the consequences of that are up to you and how you set it. There is also a potential issue if there is more than one page in a folder that satisfies the content criteria. Then the one the user agent prefers (indicated by it accept header) gets sent. This concern is uselessly ambiguous, though. What kind of situation is he imagining, exactly? Additionally, even if we were to allow MultiViews, it is essential that the URL in any links within the pages still be the correct full one. How does he define correct ? Any one of the possible content types is correct depending on what user agent is requesting the page. If an XML browser requests a page which contains full links to html documents, this would be incorrect. Given the structure of the department site, I am not sure that there is any great advantage to be gained. /paste what special qualities of the site's structure is he talking about here? I'm not sure I fully understand his concerns, and wondered if someone could enlighten me as to why he is reluctant to do this, why it would be A Bad Thing when it seems pretty innocuous to me. is seamless multiple language support, and seamless multiple browser support into the future important to the company? Are clean, easy to remember URL's important? What are the actual drawbacks? I've read carefully though his concerns and he doesn't seem to specifically state any. So, it seems to me that while he said he has concerns, what he listed as concerns are rather strange constructed mythologies designed to appear like concerns, but which are not. Or perhaps I should just get over it, use *.htm everywhere, and move on to more important issues. .. ? lib. You could. To play devil's advocate here, what percentage of your target audience would be able to take real advantage of this change? Is that percentage worth the trouble of arguing with him, and is it worth the trouble of implementing the change? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
