Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility
Agreed Jason, totally blind users may be small in number but turning away those with partial sight could hurt your clients bottom line; the trick is to invite in the missing 11% without making the site so boring that normal users wander off elsewhere. Further it may help to widen the accessibility argument; these days for example I can often be found slumped in a corner in the evenings with my Ipod touch seeking out images for use use on my own and clients sites. Pre Ipod touch I wandered between two or three such sites looking for inspiration; these days I tend to go to just the one place to spend my money mainly because my Ipod barfs when faced with Flash or poor design and because the site I like just works on the mobile device as well as the real mac or various PCs. Usability and accessibility in action as it were. - Original Message - From: Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:37 AM Subject: [WSG] Question about accessibility Good Morning everyone! I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links. I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not better then image maps. Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I don't know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him since they can't see what the main part of the site is for. Any info I could get about this would be wonderful! Thanks everyone! -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 11287 James St Holland, MI 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
Not sure web users would care a whole lot if the heading was prices or price list. Thanks for the debate chaps; I have struggled over this issue on and off for some time and this has helped me to define a simple rule which works for me. [The rule]If the list has multiple columns check because more than likely it should really be a table; if the table has only one column, check because it may be just a list. - Original Message - From: Rob Enslin To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list James, sounds like you've answered your own question/doubt then? Perhaps you should head your 'list' as h1Prices/h1 and not h1Price List/h1? 2008/8/11 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Disagree. Many shopping carts on the web have product lists or summarys marked up in a table. When you look at it from the point of view where one column is the products and the other is the price, and another is VAT per product its more semantic to do it that way. Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. James On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A list is the most appropriate for a list. The fact that price list states list DOES mean a list should be used - when you use the term list that's what the user then expects it to be. If you don't want to use a list (for whatever pedantic reason) then don't call it one. If you want to use a table, call it a table. Not using a list when a list is appropriate is just as bad as not using a table when a table is appropriate. On Mon, August 11, 2008 9:31 am, silky wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:01 PM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the past I have tryed to avoid tables as much as possible and sometimes going as far as using lists for data that should be placed in tables. I am trying to sway away from the 'never use tables' crowd and have started to use them when they need to be used. I am working on a tattoo website and the client wants a list of pricing for tattoos and peircings. Would you say this is a good candidate for a table? use a table. those that say 'never use tables' are insane and often think that 'css' and 'tables' are mutually exclusive. i ignore those people. tables are perfectly appropriate for this situation. Although 'price list' states list, its not to say that a list should be used. Any ideas. James -- silky http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/ http://lets.coozi.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- / Rob Enslin / enslin.co.uk / twitter.com/robenslin / +44759 052 8890 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
WSG promoting standards via teaching? Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list
I suspect there is more than a grain of truth in both David and Adams views. If places like this are to reach the widest possible audience they must be accessible to all (with reason); ditto to be a usable standards debating forum we should be debating the finer points not spending ALL our time on what the experts among us may consider to be trivial. Two suggestions; [1]That we all take a moment to consider those who may know a little less than we on a specific subject and attempt to use plain English when replying; thus to help others along the way. [2]When responding to eager questioners such as Michael suggest that they take the conversation off the forum; but please bring it back when a conclusion has been reached as I suspect I lot of equally eager thread watchers may be keen to know the answer too. I will now return to lurking Regards Ian Chamberlain ex-Head of Web Strategy BT Global Services; now Freelancing and having a ball. www.chamberlainsofharrogate.co.uk - Original Message - From: David Fuller - magickweb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 11:23 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list Adam... I am sorry but I have to disagree whole heartedly... What is the standards group, if not a place where all people can who choose to, can come and gain guidance and learning to become STANDARDS COMPLIANT??? It would appear that this is exactly what the group is for... I've mentioned this in another thread, where people get all uppity about not exactly web standards content (I think in that example it was discussing Development Platforms...) Regardless we are all professionals, and we are here to help, to learn and to keep up to date, so if somebody with slightly less experience than you asks for assistance, what's the harm in giving that assistance? It doesn't cost you anything and you do end up with a grateful developer/designer - and that's positive networking - again a very big plus for any business. /endOfRant Enjoy all :) David Fuller Developer magickweb Web:http://www.magick.com.au Tel: 0434 728 267 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Martin Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:08 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list Sorry to come across blunt - but I don't think the web standards group is meant to be a teacher of css. Great that people on here are wanting to learn. But there are plenty of other places dedicated to these sort of things. - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:16 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list In playing I've found using the relative positioning working pretty good for me. Is it just a matter of personal preference what I use then? Thanks for the article I really haven't understood negative margins. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 David Hucklesby wrote: On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:32:16 -0400, Michael Horowitz wrote: The live page is horowitzfamily.net. I'm just learning positioning and this seemed to work. The issue as mentioned earlier was transparency in my image. however I am just learning to do css without tables and really don't know what I should be doing for positioning. Quite honestly in hacking around this worked. I'll be happy to get feedback on better techniques for the future CSS gives you a lot of options for positioning elements on a page. As with all design issues, the best choice is usually a compromise, depending on what you want to achieve. My first choice for positioning elements is often to use margins - including negative margins on occasion. See this CommunityMX article for more: http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?cid=b0029 Hope this helps. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [WSG] html vs. html
My memory is fading fast Joe, but as I recall our first windows based web server (from Bob Denny's book) fixed the 8.3 limitation. We did continue creating .htm for a while after that but only out of habit. I can't remember the exact date but I would quess that we have been largely free from that limitation for well over ten years. Regards Ian - Original Message - From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] html vs. html The question wasn't about keeping file extensions in URIs it was about what file extension the file should have, which I am sure you will agree is still required as the server needs to know if it is an html, php, css, js, etc file doesn't it. But I completely agree, my server can serve a file.php file from www.domain.com/file as long as don't stupidly name the file the same as a directory at the same level. I may be that _at one time_ the windows server needed a 8.3 filename convention but that went out the door ages ago didn't it? PS: the subject should really be htm vs html, no? or am I missing something? Joe On Jun 20, 2008, at 08:55, Martin Kliehm wrote: On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob Enslin wrote: I recently started noticing that our CMS system generated .htm pages where previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the support staff and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file extensions (or rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard) Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Challenge the support staff to actually point out where this statement from the W3C is supposed to be... I'd have to agree; I'm inclined to believe that .htm is a carryover from when Microsoft(TM) products (ie DOS) only supported file extensions up to 3 characters in length. If there is a W3C statement, I'd love to see it. Oh, there is. The W3C advises to avoid file extensions in URLs to keep future compliant. Cool URIs don't change, you know. ;) http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] html vs. html
The W3C's own site is full of four letter suffixs Rob. not that that means anything. I would doubt what they are saying, but then where I came from CMS and web standards were on different planets. - Original Message - From: Rob Enslin To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:22 PM Subject: [WSG] html vs. html Hi peeps, I recently started noticing that our CMS system generated .htm pages where previously the system produced .html pages. I questioned the support staff and was told that the W3C deemed .html as non-standard file extensions (or rather .htm were more-widely accepted as the standard) Is this true? Any thoughts? Cheers, Rob -- Rob Enslin Blog: http://enslin.co.uk Twitter: http://twitter.com/robenslin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I fumbled with this for a while Chris but decided against it on the grounds that h1 denotes the most important content on the page; the site ownerthe logo may think that his or her logo is the most important element on the page, I doubt any site users would agree. I know we have to be pragmatic at times (clients pay wages etc) but I think the semantic argument should win this one. In most cases my h1s' contain much the same content as the page titles, bringing the added benefit that robots seem to like this approach; a point I make to clients if they ask when I explain how the semantic design can help them avoid SEO costs. Regards Ian - Original Message - From: Chris Pearce To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 8:49 AM Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo Hi, For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
Thanks for all the tips folks, very useful. In response to Michael, I have just escaped the large corporate, global enterprise world that seems to fund much of the IT work done and in my experience most such organisations are only just now waking up to the concept and benefits of open source. My ex-organisation for example tended to code either in ASP or .NET for small / medium scale or some flavour of Java for portals and heavy transaction stuff so I had no experience or libraries of PHP. Upon my excape, pausing only to don my hopelessly optimistic hat I went looking for a PHP site; something similar to the sites we all use that show how semantic mark-up should be used; or how good quality CSS can make site look good. Even poor old JavaScript thanks to gentlemen ( I use the word carelessly) like Jeremy Keith are busy helping our communities to play nicely with the DOM; which left just the back-end. The problem is that right now unless we have one or two clearly signposted places where people can learn to do the right thing, young new programmers or even old f***s like me will get what help they can from the net and libraries, as I am sure you may have noticed such sites, books and courses are not always of the highest quality. Ian (Freelancing with a grin - ex Head Of Web Strategy BT Global Services) - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 4:02 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] PHP Standards I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE Why woul you think the good programmers spend their time and ASP or J2EE? Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Designer wrote: I think that it's basically your responsibility Ian, in that there are many sources of snippets available and if you use them you just validate the generated code and put right what is wrong in the php. Then, you check for best practice too . . . Bob Ian Chamberlain wrote: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. Thanks Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] PHP Standards
Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. Thanks Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] The Problem of adjacent links
I tend to use a good old unordered list for such things Bob. - Original Message - From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: [WSG] The Problem of adjacent links I have run into a problem with having two adjacent links at the top of a page. The WAI validator complains: 10.5 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render adjacent links distinctly, include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by spaces) between adjacent links. [Priority 3] What is the current thinking on this? How can I do this WITHOUT putting any characters in there? I don't emwant/em any characters in there! I have tried using: div id=sitelink p [a href=sitemap.htmlSite Map/a] [a href=../../core/noticeboard.htmlHome/a] /p /div and that validates WAI, but I hate the appearance of it. I could set the (non a:) text colour to be the same as the background, but that's a fiddle I want to avoid. Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Dreamweaver CS3
James, why not take advantage of the free 30 trial of Dreamweaver? - Original Message - From: James Jeffery To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 12:19 PM Subject: [WSG] Dreamweaver CS3 I've been thinking about buying the new version of Photoshop and Illustrator, as i just purchased a new dual core iMac. Currently i use BBEdit but im thinking about switching to Dreamweaver as i might aswell purchase the creative suite. Is the new dreamweaver any good for us developers? This may not seem related to web standards but i feel it does because back when i used dreamweaver - it was the days when it bloated out your code and caused friction for many developers. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] s2m Digital- Mid Weight Designer required!
Jeremy, is your client really looking for pixel perfection I note you are also looking for a person who is passionate and has a thorough understanding of web design; such a person may have difficulty with pixel perfection. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Champion To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 7:26 AM Subject: [WSG] s2m Digital- Mid Weight Designer required! Company: s2m Digital Job Title: Mid weight Web Designer (3-5 years experience)- leading Publisher! Description: My client is a large magazine publisher with a diverse group of leading titles. The designer will be responsible for creating dynamic, visually compelling and functional website interface as well as advertising designs across their portfolio. They must have the ability to create pixel perfect front-end designs from initial concept to finished Photoshop (or similar) screens. Responsibilities: . Designing usable, accessible interfaces, websites and user experiences for the clients' sites . Working with sales and editorial teams to develop design solutions that deliver business and corporate objectives and fulfill user needs . Assisting with day-to-day promotional materials for website maintenance . Working with technical colleagues to ensure appropriate delivery of design solutions; maximizing accessibility and usability of products and services Essential criteria: . A thorough understanding of web design, its forms, functions and unique constraints is essential . Must have a genuine passion for web design . A working knowledge of the principles of user interaction design and information architecture will be highly regarded as well as experience designing for CSS / .NET . First-rate skills in Photoshop, Image Ready and Illustrator. Familiarity with In Design is an advantage. . Must have a strong portfolio of consumer websites - able to interpret existing magazines online. Understanding of the breadth of brands represented under the masthead, and the design aesthetic necessary for each brand. . Experience designing for mobile, understanding of Flash + action scripting or digital video editing and streaming video for the web will be highly regarded but not essential Cheers Jeremy Champion Talent Broker s2m Digital s2m Executive s2m Sales and Marketing www.s2m.com.au Level 7, 280 George Street Sydney NSW 2000 Ph: +61 2 9228 9000 Fax: +61 2 9228 9090 Mobile: 0433 249 725 IF CANDIDATE OVERVIEWS OR RESUMES ARE ATTACHED PLEASE NOTE THAT: By using any information in this document you agree to be bound by the standard terms and conditions of s2m Executive Pty. Ltd. You agree not to employ or arrange employment of candidates supplied in this document without first entering into a contractual agreement with s2m Executive Pty. Ltd. You further agree not to divulge any information contained in this document to any persons or entities without the express written permission of s2m Executive Pty. Ltd. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** image001.gif
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
I must be having a stupid attack as I can't find anywhere on the site where I can register and then comment. As for the left / right - Accessibility/ Freedom agrument (it doesn't deserve to be called a debate) it leaves me with the feeling that I would not wish to be trapped in a lift (elevator) or even a medium sized country with most of these people. All that said; can anybody help me understand where the idea that accessibility costs money comes from? Agreed, updating an existing site may cost money, however creating a clean semantic and accessibile site can be done at the same price as a nasty old site and if we all take the semantic thing to heart who knows they should be less expensive than todays sites. The final puzzle is quite why Target are happy to spend more than they should simply to discriminate against a significant proportion of their potential market. Seems plain dumb to me. - Original Message - From: Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:47 PM Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard Julie Romanowski wrote: I don't know how many of you are familiar with Michelle Malkin. She posted about the Target lawsuit today, and although she is an intelligent woman, she doesn't have a clue when it comes to web accessibility. Malkin doesn't have much of a clue, full stop. She is an American right-wing nut-bar, slightly less offensive than Ann Coulter. So are the people who regularly comment on her blog. There also seems to be a lot of ignorance among the commenters and I would appreciate it if some our WSG members can help to set these people straight. Pearls before swine, They don't WANT to see, because it might require them to do something that doesn't immediately put dollars in their pockets. Please visit Michelle Malkin's site and post your comments - http://michellemalkin.com/2007/10/03/blind-shoppers-get-green-light-to-s ue-target-over-website/. hmmm... I can't help wondering if this is a troll in itself to get more people to visit the site and raise a controversy (sensible patriotic 'Merkins versus hippie scumbags!! Film at 11!). Probably not but that's the level of suspicion the left/right battle in the US draws from either side. mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
