[WSG] Peoplesoft and standards
Hi, I am not too sure where else to ask about this. I have recently been part of discussions about the Peoplesoft application that we and many Universities use (not my fault) and its adherence to accessibility recommendations, and web standards. Peoplesoft claims to adhere to section 508.. Is this true? Looking at the default framed, JS dependant, table ridden code I don't believe it. Does anyone have any experience with Peoplesoft applications? Thanks, Jesse -- Jesse Rodgers Manager, Web Communications Communications Public Affairs - University of Waterloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 519.888.4567 ext. 3874 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] London Web Standards Conference - OT?
Yes please keep the fun posts out of here. I want more on CSS rounded corners please and site checks because that is so much more on topic than a conference about Web Standards and Accessibility being discussed in the webstandardsgroup.org mail list. Ok this post is OT and slightly flame.. But meh, freezing rain and lack of caffeine are to blame. Jesse On 1/11/05 5:25 PM, Helmut Granda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shouldn't Posting Conferences be OT as Job Opportunities? Finding out who is going or why your boss doesn't have enough cash to send you to a conference have nothing to do with standards and creates a lot more traffic than a posting about a Job that could help some one. IMHO ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Macromedia Contribute
I can say with 99% certainty the rendering is not IE nor Safari it is
Macromedia's own rendering engine. In C3 when you browse web pages you get
Safari or IE but when you click edit it flips to MM's own rendering engine.
C3 was an improved rendering engine over Dreamweaver MX 2004 and the upgrade
path continues.
C3 in edit mode renders pretty well, there are still a lot 'nice to have'
stuff in the bug base. Nothing is perfect though, and the Contribute team
has done a great job improving things.
The best way to get Contribute and Dreameaver to improve is for people from
places like here that care about standards to get involved on the Macromedia
Forums and bug them to let you into their beta programs. If there are more
voices asking for better standards support from rendering to code generation
the products will improve faster. Once thing I will say with absolute
certainty is that the Macromedia development teams listen to their
community. If their community is largely the 'how do I create a table?' type
then that is the product you get...
Jesse
On 12/15/04 6:19 PM, Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On the Mac, Contribute uses the same (system-level) rendering engine as
Safari, which means you should not get any nasty surprises with the
layout.
Are you sure? Some time ago there was a deal between Macromedia and Opera:
http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2002/07/20020702.dml
(oh, and Apple: http://www.macminute.com/2003/09/30/opera)
Test it:
body {content: It's Opera;}
--
Jesse Rodgers
Manager, Web Communications
Communications Public Affairs - University of Waterloo
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | 519.888.4567 ext. 3874
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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Re: [WSG] Standards Macromedia Contribute
Sort of: http://pole.uwaterloo.ca/cpadev/engtest/index.html I am currently working on a template that keeps to KISS so not to drive some folks insane but can be maintained in C3. Just about to hit it with JAWS and the ilk. I have had a couple students that rely on JAWS try it out and they have no complaints. Few things to add as yet and the search isn't implemented very well but C3 behaves. There are some limitations from inserting tables and images but the parts it leaves out are relatively minor. If you want to chat specifically about it send me an email. Regards, Jesse -- Jesse Rodgers Manager, Web Communications Communications Public Affairs - University of Waterloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 519.888.4567 ext. 3874 On 12/15/04 9:15 AM, Sam Hutchinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone out there got any experience of adding a fully devised compliant template to Contribute to let the content owners manage their own pages ? Is it simply a case of defining the editable regions or should you build the site and then define the content that can be changed? Was planning on implementing along with: http://www.sammyco.co.uk/acttrwebpre/company.php ...would be interested to hear of any results good and bad - off list of you feel your reply isn't wide enough for everyone to be interested... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site layout problems, specifically in Mac IE
Have you looked at it in Firefox? Or Safari? It looks even further off ;) Might want to not call the image in the background and use that to keep the content down where you want it. I think it's cause you are relying on the list of links in the top to push things down and the font renders awfully different across browsers and platforms. Putting a height: 138px; in the #maintitle makes it look similar.. But there is likely a better way to lay that stuff out. I usually start from scratch in this situation. Jesse On 10/21/04 10:17 AM, Craig Millman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: www.pacifichomeloans.com.au -- Jesse Rodgers Manager, Web Communications Communications Public Affairs - University of Waterloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 519.888.4567 ext. 3874 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Safari bug - calling CSS that is not there messes with p
I have come across some oddness in Safari (1.2.3 (v125.9) ) that I am not sure is mentioned anywhere... If it is, my apologies. I first noticed it with my little blog type play site. I was calling three style sheets from a site I am working on. If I call one that is not there the margins get messed up except when calling the one that is blank. I have set up these two pages: http://pole/cpadev/engtest/bugs/callingcssthatisthere.html - should look normal http://pole/cpadev/engtest/bugs/callingcssthatisnotthere.html - messed up Is this documented anywhere? Jesse -- Jesse Rodgers Manager, Web Communications Communications Public Affairs - University of Waterloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 519.888.4567 ext. 3874 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Re: Safari bug - calling CSS that is not there messes with p
ARGH; http://pole.uwaterloo.ca/cpadev/engtest/bugs/callingcssthatisthere.html http://pole.uwaterloo.ca/cpadev/engtest/bugs/callingcssthatisnotthere.html - messed up On 10/13/04 12:12 PM, J Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://pole/cpadev/engtest/bugs/callingcssthatisthere.html - should look normal http://pole/cpadev/engtest/bugs/callingcssthatisnotthere.html - messed up -- Jesse Rodgers Manager, Web Communications Communications Public Affairs - University of Waterloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 519.888.4567 ext. 3874 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Safari bug - calling CSS that is not there messes with p
Yes that is a great page... The fix was simply to point to a style sheet that existed. The link I had to a blank one was broken. IE 5 displays both pages the same, it is only Safari that puts in some odd margin's in the p. Jesse On 10/13/04 12:54 PM, Kenneth Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.mezzoblue.com/css/cribsheet/ Don¹t link to empty style sheets as placeholders¹ for future style sheets (like handheld or print media style sheets). Mac IE5 chokes on the empty style sheet and the page load time increases. Instead, have at least one rule (or perhaps even a comment) in the style sheet so that MacIE doesn¹t choke. I've seen Mac IE5 do this, so maybe Safari gets messed up too. Try the above fix. -- Jesse Rodgers Manager, Web Communications Communications Public Affairs - University of Waterloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 519.888.4567 ext. 3874 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] So stuck.. Nested UL's and IE 6
I really hate to ask (my CSS is crap-ish I know but...) I am out of patience on this fine Friday afternoon. Why is IE 6 doing what it does to the left nav on this page? http://pole.uwaterloo.ca/cpadev/engtest/howdoesitwork.html I want it nested, I know li id= would save me a load of grief. IE 6 seems to take the line from the li above the ul and insert it after the /ul. IE 5 doesn't even do this.. Best I can tell listomatic has no working list like this, and google hasn't been any help thus far. Is there a site that details IE 6's nested UL navigation woes? Thanks, Jesse -- Jesse Rodgers Manager, Web Communications Communications Public Affairs - University of Waterloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 519.888.4567 ext. 3874 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] So stuck.. Nested UL's and IE 6
Argh. Yes I usually do validate before asking for help to make sure its not me, and that explains everything. Sorry about that So IE will automagically insert the ul into the li above it.. Moz and others just ignore that *mistake* in the code. Time for Friday beer Thanks, Jesse On 9/10/04 3:48 PM, James Denholm-Price [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dunno about IE, but XHTML does not allow ul within ul, the submenu ul needs to be enclosed in a li element which is probably why the submenu is not nested. It often helps to validate your code [1] -- always a good idea [2] as different browsers might treat invalid code differently. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 508??
Have you looked at the other assistive technologies available? Yes I work closely with our Office for Persons with Disabilities, even presented at their Assistive Technology Fair last year. This year I will as well and sounds like it will be even bigger than last year. There are some very cool technologies out there. England and the other countries requiring accessible web sites state 508 did not meet their requirements for accessible web sites. So, how can we state that Section 508 is the end-all solution when other governments are saying it isn't enough? Not saying it was an end-all, just saying it was a decent place to start. At the very least it is forcing a lot of software developers and web designers to think accessible design. AT developers have the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines they have to follow. There is at least one person from the JAWS team on the working group. Since JAWS uses Internet Explorer and the Microsoft Accessibility Agent, I would hope that Microsoft starts supporting standards better than they do. And that they stop with their proprietary stuff. Netscape has begun to support OBJECT so we don't need to use EMBED/NOEMBED any longer unless you want to support earlier versions. Oh my, do we want to support Netscape 4.x? I don't and don't even come close to trying any longer. That is likely the biggest problem with Assistive technology, it relies on other over priced bloat ware that is unstable at the best of times and refuses to follow any standards properly. Why not move to Moz? Why build Assistive technologies for Linux where you have more control? Oh that is rhetorical. One thing I did notice with a lot of Assistive Technologies is that they rely heavily on Microsoft. I think that is a shame. Jesse * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] 508??
Actually Canada has to accessibility requirements under any law. The Canadian Government has the Common Look and Feel Guidelines and in there they require WAI AA for all Federal Government sites (government workers in Canada correct me please). http://www.cio-dpi.gc.ca/clf-nsi/index_e.asp Ontario (where I am) has the Ontarian with Disabilities Act (2001) but it lacks any real teeth and doesn't suggest anything specific - for uni's we have to come up with a 'plan' and the community is to keep us to it. For UW I have just been promoting the idea of standard code and accessible design and worked with many students with disabilities to determine what features they would like to see. Luckily our pages are mountains of text and static pages... Students use Google to get around and are relatively happy with our pages even though we have done little to make them accessible in the past. It is more a responsibility to the community that is motivating our move to accessible design. I think (not entirely sure) in Canada there is the wild card - Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I have heard a few discussions about how inaccessible websites violate people's rights in Canada, but to my knowledge no court cases yet. It would only take one court case though, and the tide would shift in Canada. Accessible design consultants are just waiting for that I imagine ;) So how does Section 508 effect us? It doesn't. But it is of particular interest since I have seen a couple of the people that worked on it present at conferences. I am not a huge fan of the WCAG, nor am I a fan of those who preach strict adherence without first providing a guide for those who don't understand. The other problem of validators is annoying as well. I was sitting in Tim Hortons in Toronto with Joe Clark listening to him go on how validators can't tell you want you have done right, only what you have done wrong, but even then they are inaccurate - when I thought, this is madness (and no it wasn't just because Joe was ranting) and I haven't seen anything in the past year or so to make me think otherwise. Jesse On 6/30/04 8:47 AM, Lee Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesse, please tell me how Canada falls under Section 508. I realize Canada falls under our telecommunications acts, but I wasn't aware that Canada had to comply with Section 508. As I understood it, Canada's rules, although not totally accepted, required bi-lingual sites and even more accessibility than Section 508 requires. Please correct me if I'm wrong; I like to keep up with how other countries are handling the issues. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] 508??
That should probably read - 'does not have' - I am fine specimen of the new and improved public education system in Canada ;) I apologize for the bad grammar and typos and place the blame on my 5th grade teacher. Jesse On 6/30/04 9:19 AM, J Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually Canada has to accessibility * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] 508??
Perhaps one of the biggest problems with accessibility is the lack of affordable assistive technologies (AT)? I think W3 complaint code mixed with some decent features should be all that is required on the developers end. The government would be better off spending more time and resources on supporting the development of text readers (lynx with a freaky voice) that do not cost $2500 a seat. You will note some the latest version of Jaws can handle junk code pretty well - no excuse for junk code mind you - but there has to be some middle ground. The problem with the WCAG is it's so academic, at least section 508 made an attempt to quantify exactly what makes a site accessible and encourages AT creators along with Dreamweaver-esque CMS developers to conform to something they can understand. Who is encouraging the AT developers to support web standards? Bah.. Jaws is really starting to freak me out. Jesse On 6/29/04 12:49 PM, Lee Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Section 508 picked and chose which elements they thought was correct without even attempting to understand the problems faced by assistive technologies. Section 508 has elements from Priority 2 and Priority 3 while skipping some elements from Priority 1. Now, that's interesting - they skip required elements in lieu of lower priority elements. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Sydney meeting tonight
On 6/10/04 11:43 AM, Russ Weakley - Maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tonight 44 people attended our Sydney WSG meeting - a huge night (where lots of beer was consumed). Just wondering where the Canadians are in this group? Would be so bad to have an event or two? I think I could get more uni web folks involved in Ontario anyway. The count says: Canada 29 Jesse -- Jesse Rodgers Manager, Web Communications Communications Public Affairs - University of Waterloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 519.888.4567 ext. 3874 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Action to force browser developers to clean up their ac t
On 6/8/04 2:21 PM, Nancy Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we are talking IE: Isn¹t the problem is that Microsoft is going to integrate its next version of IE directly into its operating system, which maybe an issue unto itself? Right or wrong they don¹t want to spend the money to patch or upgrade the current browser. Longhorn (the name of the next operating system) keeps getting postponed. In the meantime, I think as a web developer, one designs for the browser their users use. It would take a special interest group, maybe one for some disability, to publicize that using IE is inaccessible to them, and since IE is fairly accessible to most groups, I don¹t see that happening. Perhaps the solution is to add features¹ that only standards compliant browser users can see? These features would have to be standards compliant of course. Aren¹t cool and unique features what fuelled the initial browser war to begin with? You just have to give people something other than security and speed to get them to download Moz or something like it. People need something more tangible (if pop up pr0n 24/7 wasn¹t enough). Perhaps its time to return to the best viewed in¹ but have it best viewed in W3C standards compliant browsers?¹ My 0.02 Jesse -- Jesse Rodgers Manager, Web Communications Communications Public Affairs - University of Waterloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 519.888.4567 ext. 3874 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
Hi, new to the list but I couldn't resist this one as I have seen this first hand... The fact it takes less time and saves the client money could be the reason many designers don't want to leave tables behind. Think about the money a shop would lose? They would have to get more clients and improve overall. Its not right, but I have argued with many designers that have said 'standards compliance will cost more.' I wish I could charge $100 an hour.. Stupid salary :( Jesse On 6/2/04 9:36 PM, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The article I'm referring to in this thread is about the business reasons why web developers ought to be learning these things - namely that you can produce sites in half the time or less. And maintain them in the future with far fewer man-hours. And the are numbers to back it up. Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
Actually I was thinking like the consultant that tried to pull the 'standards cost more' argument with two non-profits I do volunteer work for. The article you link to shows exactly what I have been saying for a long time.. I think scarcasm was lost in my post. Moving to XHTML/CSS will save me and my team a load of time and make life easier.. Saves me loads of time daily with small projects. Jesse On 6/2/04 10:40 PM, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesse you are obviously not a business owner or a general manager. And if you are, you're not thinking like a business owner. Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
