RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
Mike, maybe you should have worded your question a little differently. At my company, we don't approach accessibility as catering to users with disabilities, but we work toward making applications accessible to the greatest number of users possible. No application will ever be 100% accessible, but following standards and WCAG 2.0 guidelines helps us to get as close to 100% as possible. To answer your question - Sticking to standards is not enough. Accessibility and usability testing are critical. At my company, we have both an accessibility lab and a usability lab. We have accessibility and assistive technology (AT) experts onsite who test using various AT, and who work with actual AT users to identify issues with applications. We also train designers and developers to identify accessibility issues early in the design and development lifecycle. There are several other companies I know of that are doing the same and so much more, such as Adobe, IBM, Microsoft and Yahoo. As for developers not caring about people with disabilities, I disagree. There is a large community of developers who take accessibility seriously and are striving to make applications accessible to people with disabilities. -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 2:54 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? The conclusion I am coming to, with 5 days since I asked this and no-one actually saying they do ANYTHING to cater for people with disabilities, is that even after all this time, no one really spends much time thinking about users with special needs, other than to code to standards and hope that does the trick. No one either agreed or disagreed with the proposition that sticking to standards IS in fact enough. I asked this question, wondering if someone would say 'yes we have a usability lab' or 'we have a consultant who runs our sites through his screen reader for us' or 'we have meetings before launch specifically to discuss' or something. But no one has said they do anything at all for users with disability. The only responses I've had to this question are people referring me to documents on line that I found long ago with google. I was interested that none of the people who gave me those URLS (except Josh Street) said they actually used the advice in the documents themselves. Josh wasn't specific about how he caters to people with special needs, but seems to speak with some knowledge so I'm assuming he caters to Dyslexics in his designs. I guess it's going to take another law suit like that one against the Olympics2000 site to get anyone to take users with special needs seriously and actually lift a finger to cater to their needs. The conclusion I'm being forced towards is that developers are basically saying that users with special needs will have to swim for themselves and it's up to them to find some software of their own to get around all the obstacles the A/Bs put in their way. I'm glad at least property developers have been forced to change that attitude. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2011 11:12 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? How to the rest of you a/b people (i.e. able bodied) cater to users with various forms of disability? Up until recently, I've tended to rely on keeping my code to standards, eliminating tables except for their proper purpose of tabulating data, and hoping that will give the accessibility level required. Do you go to the step of accessing your sites with JAWS or something similar to see how the site works for users with screen readers? I remember in the 1990s when I was working at Australian Consumers Association (choice.com.au) we had someone come and bring his PC with JAWS. The web team all sat in the boardroom getting ever more glum looks on our faces as we saw to our horror how terrible our new design was for this poor guy. We thought we'd got a terrific new design, and were about to launch it, when he did this demo for us. We had to go back and recode everything. This was before anyone was talking about standards though - it was back when the normally accepted method of laying out pages was to use tables, and buttons were nearly always images. I remember being astounded at how fast he was moving around the page, even though we'd unwittingly designed an obstacle course of humungous proportions for him. Our anguish at the time resulted in a far better web site, and convinced me to pay
RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
Sad, but true, Felix. We know State Farm Bank (among other sites/applications) has accessibility issues and are working with the support area to resolve them. Unfortunately, changes like this take time. Unfortunately, there are people in every organization who don't like change, and a couple of people from the bank area have not been open to accessibility fixes. However, as a customer, you may have more power than you think. Let State Farm Bank know about the accessibility issues you are encountering. Email, phone, snail mail...I would be happy to give you the CEO's mailing address and you can contact him directly! -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Felix Miata Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 10:50 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? On 2011/08/23 15:11 (GMT) Julie Romanowski julie.romanowski.l...@statefarm.com composed: To answer your question - Sticking to standards is not enough. Accessibility and usability testing are critical. At my company, we have both an accessibility lab and a usability lab. We have accessibility and assistive technology (AT) experts onsite who test using various AT, and who work with actual AT users to identify issues with applications. We also train designers and developers to identify accessibility issues early in the design and development lifecycle. I guess State Farm's definition of accessibility is vastly different from mine. Otherwise, its online banking wouldn't be using text sized in px (12px body on online2.statefarm.com/b2c/mysf/MyAccount) to 40% the size of my browser UI text and 25% the size of my browser's default. And it wouldn't be printing about 12 times the size displayed on screen. I only get about 8 transactions per page printing scheduled payments confirmation lists. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile.
The site looks good to me. One suggestion would be to increase the contrast between the banner text and its background. The contrast ratio is currently about 1.6:1. Darkening the Mentor Hose Ramp text a bit will help make it more readable to people without 20/20 vision. From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Laakso Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:40 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile. First-pass. Comments and suggestions appreciated. This end... Desktop: OS X 10.4 Tablet: No got. Mobile: OperaMini os SanyoMirro 4 BoostMobile. uri: http://chelseacreekstudio.com/m/http://chelseacreekstudio.com/m/ Thanks. Best, ~d -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] mobile
It loaded quickly on my iPhone4 through the mobile connection. Personally, I would prefer additional options to view the paintings, such as thumbnails where the user can select specific paintings. Having to go through every painting can be an issue especially for people who don’t have a good connection. From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] mobile Takes fng years to load up on my iPhone4 through the mobile connection, so I would say that's a #fail. Optimise that by all means. Design is clean, nice chunky, prodabble buttons which is cool, but not sure of the navigation paradigm from usability perspective (couldn't test for longer as it was taking ages for each page). Overall I think it's a good first draft. Keep going. Cheers, @flexewebs Sent from my iPhone On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:16 PM, David Laakso da...@chelseacreekstudio.com wrote: If anyone has time to check this site [portrait/landscape] in their mobile device it is greatly appreciated. http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/ Best, ~d *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
Since I started it, I'll ask that we conclude the thread. Thanks to everyone for your input. The discussion was excellent and I now have some good ammo to use when debating this issue with others. I also see that the discussion has spread to other sites. Thanks again! Anyone want to conclude the thread or is this one going to fly forever? Joe *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
I don't know how many of you are familiar with Michelle Malkin. She posted about the Target lawsuit today, and although she is an intelligent woman, she doesn't have a clue when it comes to web accessibility. There also seems to be a lot of ignorance among the commenters and I would appreciate it if some our WSG members can help to set these people straight. Please visit Michelle Malkin's site and post your comments - http://michellemalkin.com/2007/10/03/blind-shoppers-get-green-light-to-s ue-target-over-website/. Julie Romanowski Software Engineering - J2EE Engagement Team State Farm Insurance Company office: 309-735-5248 mobile: 309-532-4027 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
No, not a troll. Someone sent me this link and the comments I read were disheartening. I don't know if it would make a difference, but I wanted to see if we could actually get some of these people to start thinking. Maybe it's a lost cause... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Harris Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 5:47 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard Julie Romanowski wrote: I don't know how many of you are familiar with Michelle Malkin. She posted about the Target lawsuit today, and although she is an intelligent woman, she doesn't have a clue when it comes to web accessibility. Malkin doesn't have much of a clue, full stop. She is an American right-wing nut-bar, slightly less offensive than Ann Coulter. So are the people who regularly comment on her blog. There also seems to be a lot of ignorance among the commenters and I would appreciate it if some our WSG members can help to set these people straight. Pearls before swine, They don't WANT to see, because it might require them to do something that doesn't immediately put dollars in their pockets. Please visit Michelle Malkin's site and post your comments - http://michellemalkin.com/2007/10/03/blind-shoppers-get-green-light-to -s ue-target-over-website/. hmmm... I can't help wondering if this is a troll in itself to get more people to visit the site and raise a controversy (sensible patriotic 'Merkins versus hippie scumbags!! Film at 11!). Probably not but that's the level of suspicion the left/right battle in the US draws from either side. mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
Darn it! Sorry, people, it looks like comment registration is now closed (http://michellemalkin.com/terms-of-use/). Here's her contact email - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Please be civil, ladies and gentlemen. We want to educate this woman, not heckle her. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Chamberlain Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:18 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard I must be having a stupid attack as I can't find anywhere on the site where I can register and then comment. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Skip to Content?
What about people using screen magnification? Wouldn't it be beneficial to them to have the skip to... links available at the upper left-hand corner of the screen? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tate Johnson Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 5:04 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip to Content? On 28/06/2007, at 7:34 PM, Frank Palinkas wrote: Thanks David, much appreciate your feedback. That's exactly what I thought, but I'm not inclined to assume anything. As you mention, I'm experimenting with moving the skip to content link off screen with a margin-left of -em, leaving its markup intact just above the floated global nav div. Kind regards, Frank This is the preferred method. Using display none may actually hide content from screen readers. Usually, I set an absolute position in conjunction with a negative em margin. This will hide the element from modern, graphical browsers. If you place the accessibility links at the top of your markup, it will be one of the first elements that disabled users will view. Cheers, Tate *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
How about letting the table/div thread die? The debate is getting rather tiring and it doesn't look like the argument will be resolved any time soon. How about we agree to disagree for now? Julie Romanowski State Farm Insurance Company J2EE Engagement Team phone: 309-735-5248 cell: 309-532-4027 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] html design - best practices
On Aug 16, 2005, at 9:07 PM, Ben Curtis wrote: That's a very curious thing for the W3C to publish. I am not aware of any HTML standard in which b and i are deprecated. Can anyone cite such a declaration? They are included in XHTML 1.1 (Presentation Module) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/ abstract_modules.html#s_presentationmodule They were not deprecated in XHTML 1.1: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/changes.html#a_changes As I understand it, nothing was deprecated in XHTML 1.0; in fact, they don't define the term for possible use: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#defs HTML 4.01 didn't deprecate anything; it only clarified HTML 4.0. b and i are not deprecated in 4.0: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/changes.html#h-A.3.1.2 If the W3C misspoke, or if they are indeed deprecated but not listed as such in the common specs... well, it's no wonder such rumors persist! Please look at the date of each document. The document listing the items as deprecated is the most recent. HTML 4.01 Specification http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/cover.html#minitoc W3C Recommendation 24 December 1999 XHTML(tm) 1.0 The Extensible HyperText Markup Language (Second Edition) A Reformulation of HTML 4 in XML 1.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#defs W3C Recommendation 26 January 2000, revised 1 August 2002 Modularization of XHTML(tm) W3C Recommendation 10 April 2001 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/ XHTML(tm) 1.1 - Module-based XHTML http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/Overview.html#toc W3C Recommendation 31 May 2001 HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/ W3C Working Draft 30 June 2005 (includes the information regarding deprecated b and i tags) If the W3C misspoke... Do you really believe that the W3C misspoke because they have a working draft with change/updates to the current HTML/XHTML recommendations? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] html design - best practices
b is not deprecated, it just has no semantic value and in the fight to get people to markup their content semantically instead of visually, b and i became clear targets. Unfortunately, this means that many people think they should use strong and em when they really should use b and i. It's similar to the people who bend over backwards in order to put tabular data in some sort of floating list construct, just because they think that CSS-styled markup should not have the table tag. Here is a W3C Working Draft that addresses b and i: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/ The em and strong elements were designed to indicate structural emphasis that may be rendered in a variety of ways (font style changes, speech inflection changes, etc.). The b and i elements were deprecated in HTML 4.01 and XHTML because they were used to create a specific visual effect. It is not difficult to keep presentation separate from content. Using style sheets does this nicely. As for tabular data, of course it should be displayed in a table. That is what the tag is for. Using tables for page layout, however, is a different story. Using tables to design Web pages is an accessibility nightmare. Our accessibility guys give presentations to developers demonstrating the problems that arise with tables-based layout. After they have had the opportunity to listen to what a screen reader sees most of them are more then willing to change their tables-based layout to a div-based layout. We are also able to help them get the very same layout without tables. Again, style sheets do the job. Julie Romanowski State Farm Insurance Company J2EE Engagement Team phone: 309-735-5248 cell: 309-532-4027 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
