RE: [WSG] Anyone know of any good DOM tutorials?
Why not simply set up your Print CSS file to print only the main content? If the person is only after that information everything else is a waste of paper. Everyone always tries to find fancy ways to do simply tasks. Shame. Lee Roberts HYPERLINK http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.roserockdesign.com HYPERLINK http://www.applepiecart.com http://www.applepiecart.com _ From: Seona Bellamy [HYPERLINK mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 5:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Anyone know of any good DOM tutorials? Hi Michael, No, :hover isn't an option since what I want to do is have stuff hidden when you print it. I'm using Zeldman's toggle script, and I want to set it up so that only expanded items will print (at the moment the headings of non-expanded items also prints, so that you get a lot of wasted paper). It's in a reports section, so logically a person printing the page is only interested in the section they've expanded. So we have something like: ul li class=noPrinta href=# onclick=toggle(1) onKeyPress=toggle(1)CategoryName1/a/li li class=noPrint ul id=1 style=display: none; li class=noPrinta href=# onclick=toggle(2) onKeyPress=toggle(2)SubcategoryName1/a/li li class=noPrint ul id=2 style=display: none; li class=noPrinta href=# onclick=toggle(3) onKeyPress=toggle(3)SectionName1/a/li li div id=3 style=display: none; pItemName1/p /div /li /ul /li /ul /li li class=noPrinta href=# onclick=toggle(4) onKeyPress=toggle(4)CategoryName2/a/li li class=noPrint ul id=4 style=display: none; li class=noPrinta href=# onclick=toggle(5) onKeyPress=toggle(5)SubcategoryName2/a/li li class=noPrint ul id=5 style=display: none; li class=noPrinta href=# onclick=toggle(6) onKeyPress=toggle(6)SectionName2/a/li li div id=6 style=display: none; pItemName2/p /div /li /ul /li /ul /li /ul This is a cutdown version of the code for the page, taking out all of the other details that show along with the ItemName, as well as the code for the looping (I've pasted in two sets instead, just to give the idea), but it shows the essential format. What I want is that if only the top set is expanded, CategoryName2 will not actually print at all. So when a link is clicked, as well as toggling the referred ID to visible, it will set the class of the parent element from noPrint to Print. Is that something that can be done? How do you isolate the parent element to do something to it? Seona. -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.262 / Virus Database: 264.7.7 - Release Date: 9/3/2004 attachment: winmail.dat
RE: [WSG] Interview markup?
Heading tags are not appropriate nor semantically correct. cite is used for quoting a citation from a book, article or other piece of work referenced in an article. This is more adeptly used in reference articles. dl is the most appropriate method as it not only visually separates the question from the answer, but it also indicates that the text in the definition actually answers or defines the question or term in the definition type. I hope this helps. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.262 / Virus Database: 264.7.7 - Release Date: 9/3/2004 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] [OT] NZ vs Aust
Is this organization about standards or is it a club for Australians and New Zealanders to slam each other? Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.262 / Virus Database: 264.6.4 - Release Date: 8/19/2004 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Meta tag question
If you specify an xml:lang attribute in the html tag, do you still have to use a meta tag to specify the content-language for the document? You are not required to add the content-language tag to your document. If your need to focus upon a specific language for categorization and optimization, you may use this. So, search engines may use the content-language to categorize your documents based upon language you may. I do not know of any tests performed recently to validate the use of the tag. If your document is American English I would recommend not using it. Don't foregut your HTML to Content ratios. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.262 / Virus Database: 264.6.4 - Release Date: 8/19/2004 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Meta tag question
PS - IE ignores the xml:lang and lang attributes, just doesn't know they exist. This isn't entirely correct. JAWS, Window-Eyes, IBM HomePage Reader and other screen readers that use IE as the required browser interpret those values. IE doesn't ignore those values. Those values simply do not offer standard browsers anything that helps their presentation. Browsers require Character set to determine how the text should be presented (left-to-right, right-to-left, top-down) and which set of characters to call into the browser presentation. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.262 / Virus Database: 264.6.4 - Release Date: 8/19/2004 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] has h1 to be first and only first?
There is no requirement that the H1 be the first thing on the page. There is a requirement that if heading tags be used that the H1 be the first heading tag used on the page. You can find that spelled out in the HTML Mobile standards, the ISO standards and in the WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 3.5 Guidelines. I hope this helps. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Bobby does not approve me
Hi John, I answered your request at Web Pro World. I hope it helps. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com From: John Britsios [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 4:27 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Bobby does not approve me Hi everyone! Some of my pages do not validate with Bobby, and I can not see the errors. Could you please have a look and give me a hand? 1. Page: http://www.webnauts.net/accessibility2.html Bobby: http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bobbyServlet?URL=""> 2. Page: http://www.webnauts.net/accessibility_seminar.html Bobby: http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bobbyServlet?URL=""> 3. Page: http://www.webnauts.net/usability_seminar.html Bobby: http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bobbyServlet?URL=""> 4. Page: http://www.webnauts.net/technical Bobby: http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bobbyServlet?URL=""> 5.Page: http://www.webnauts.net/curriculum.html Bobby: http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bobbyServlet?URL=""> 6. Page: http://www.webnauts.net/check.html Bobby: http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bobbyServlet?URL=""> Thank you all in advance. John S. BritsiosPrincipal Web Accessibility Consultant,Usability Specialist TrainerWebnauts NetThielenstr. 2D-33602 BielefeldGermanyHome: http://www.webnauts.netCV: http://www.webnauts.netForum: http://forum.webnauts.net
RE: [WSG] Fixed vs flexible layouts
Yes, Checkpoint 3.7 is for resizing along with text. Pixels are not scalable. A pixel is a pixel regardless of how one might look at it. As I recall on a 800x600 screen resolution IE used 1.25 microns for a pixel while Netscape uses 1 micron. On the 1024x768 I recall that IE uses .8 micron for a pixel while Netscape uses .5 micron. Of course, I'm an old guy so my memory may be a little off. That's why looking at pixeled fonts in IE looks larger than pixeled fonts in Netscape. Mac and Linux are different as well. But, a pixel is supposed to be 1 micron. So, technically a pixeled font is not scalable. It does not resize. Only the monitor resolution resizes. Pixels are absolutes. There are many holes in WCAG1. WCAG2 is attempting to fix those problems. I hope this helps. Lee Roberts http://www.applepiecart.com http://www.roserockdesign.com -Original Message- From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 4:26 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Fixed vs flexible layouts Lee Roberts wrote: Andy wanted to know what the WCAG working group members had to say about fixed and scalable width layouts. I am a member of the working group. Well, I gave an education and it seems the topic has grown to now include more about mobile devices. The purpose of variable width or elastic designs is to help people by allowing them to increase their font size without destroying the design. Yes, you will end up with right-scrolls. It doesn't matter what you do. Thanks for that Lee. So are you saying that the sole purpose of checkpoint 3.7 is to accommodate the resizing of layouts along with text? Does that mean in this case, pixels aren't being considered as relative units, contrary to what the specs say? I have to admit that I have huge problems with the guidelines. Most notably because they don't really tell you why each checkpoint is necessary and how failure to comply can reduce accessibility. Some are obvious, but many others aren't. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Fixed vs flexible layouts
To Fix or not to Fix, dang we're back in Shakespeare's time with To Be or Not To Be, that is the question. Let's start with the easy stuff ... fonts. If you use font-size: percentage, then your layer or table layout widths should be in percentages. If you use font-size: em, then your layer or table layout widths should be in em's. But, do you know what they both do? Interestingly enough, they take the default font size set in the browser and use it as a basis. If the font-family is a sans-serif and the user set the browser to 10pt then 100% would be equal in size to 10pt. If the you used em's, then the 1em would be equal in size to the 10pt. This allows the visitor the ability to declare their own font sizes without the use of programming a stylesheet ... effectively they are with setting defaults in their browser. So, if I come in and say that I want me font-size to be 1em or 100% then my font size is relative to the browser's default. Now, coming in and using the width attribute with fixed values will obviously cause your width to maintain a fixed value. This is unfriendly to the users of screens smaller than the values you set. It also doesn't always look professional on larger screens - in some people's opinions. By applying percentages you end up running the problem with the presentation causing drip effects in font presentations once the font-size gets too large. The drip effect is when the words start dripping off the line and eventually it will start dripping more quickly so as to make the words drip their letters as well. (Yes, I coined the term drip effect). The only truly scalable width is the em. As you increase the default font-size, the width increases as well. For example, if my default sans-serif is 10pt and I change that to 72pt, then 1em becomes equal to 72pt. If my mobile device uses a font-size of 6pt then 1em is equal to 6pt. But, please don't try to use 6pt on a regular computer. The problem with using scalable widths is people tend to not use them correctly. They'll use a scalable width such as 100% for the width and then turn around and use px or pt for their font-size. I've done it many times ... shame on me. But, now you know how to use scalable widths ... you have to use them with scalable font-sizes. So, I guess your next question would be how many em's would I need to use to make my presentation fill the screen without scrolling right? That is a good question and one I can't answer. In fact, you couldn't answer it either even if you guessed. The reason you can't is because of the visitor. Each visitor can set their own font-size values in their browser. And, since the em is based upon the font-size selected by the visitor, we have no control. My best advice is to tinker until you are happy with the default presentation. But, remember, you will make someone scroll right eventually. For example, if the 800x600 only hold 75em's wide and you decrease the screen resolution to less than that the user will have to scroll. But, still the em is the only truly scalable width. The purpose of having scalable widths is to help prevent the drip effect. I hope this helps. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Fixed vs flexible layouts
Users shouldn't need zoom, but the problem is graphic designers think 9px font sizes should be the standard. I'm afraid even I can't read that. So, until we get rid of graphic designers who believe concepts such as small font sizes is best we will continue to have the problems. No, IE doesn't allow you to increase or decrease font size when the designer uses px, pc, or pt. So, zoom is required. IE also does not support multiple choice for style sheets. So, the option of allow ing the user to select a font-size isn't always acceptable. However, if you are using the DOM you can help visitors by offering varying style sheets based upon a selection within the code of the page. I think there is an article about this on A List Apart. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Web Accessability, SEO, Bookmarking - mod_rewrite
Base is a good tag, but in my opinion it has worn out its usefulness. The only reason one might find it good now is if one has their site stolen. Rookies that steal your web site won't know what base is and would therefore end up linking into your site. When we started HTML development years ago, oh that was in 1990, there was no such thing as relative links. So, Mosaic didn't know where to go if you clicked on a link that wasn't absolute or the author didn't include the base tag. These days browsers and assistive technologies understand relative links. Therefore, the use of the base tag has pretty much disappeared. I hope this helps. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] After CSS?
Accessibility is a great place to start as previously pointed out. However, there are many other standards you could start learning. I don't know which skillsets you have so far and I don't think anyone asked. So, what are your skillsets? With this information I can tell you where I would move you if you were in my employ. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Web Accessability, SEO, Bookmarking - mod_rewrite
Chris, Put your CSS file in a real directory. Then do the following: ../styles/site-styles.css That is what I use. Of course the directories and filenames are different, but you get the idea. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com
RE: [WSG] After CSS?
I would then recommend you go beyond XHTML Basic and focus upon the variants available. After that I would recommend you focus upon Ruby and Earl. I hope this helps. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] semantic way to mark up form help?
Both Patrick and Ted made good suggestions. However, I'd prefer to see the page in question before making Patrick's suggestion. If the form is like some of mine, that simply won't work. The title option always works, but the user must know the title is there before it can help them. Your best option is to use the Value attribute of the textbox or input field. This allows you to enter information that will help the user fill out the form correctly. Using ECMAscript you can empty the text once the user begins to type. That would require using OnKeyDown. OnFocus may not give the person time enough to read the Value information if they tab to the field below the viewable portion of the form (ie, below the fold). I hope this helps. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Patrick Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 10:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] semantic way to mark up form help? Maybe a slight stretch, but how about wrapping these related elements (label, input, etc) up in their own fieldset, and using the legend for that text (thus associating it with the (input and label within). form... fieldset legendThis is the title of your news post (does not accept HTML input)/legend label../label input/ /fieldset /form Other suggestion: use a title on the input input... title=This is the title of your news post (does not accept HTML input) / To be honest, I wouldn't get too overly worried about getting the semantics exactly right in this case, mainly because HTML is a flawed language with very few general (and a few overly specific) elements with defined semantic meaning and relationship. Anything that falls outside of that is always going to be a rough approximation - trying to squeeze the requirement of semantics encountered in the real-world into the small, restricitve slots provided by the existing spec. (then again, you could create your own DTD that adds your own nice custom explanation element to the current set ;) ) Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk -Original Message- From: Justin French Sent: 22 July 2004 15:25 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] semantic way to mark up form help? Hi all, I'm trying to decide on a nice semantic way to mark-up a short (usually only a few words) block of help text in the context of a web form. I currently use a label to label the input, and a paragraph or div to mark-up the help text: form... div class='formitem' label for='f-title'.../label input id='f-title' type='text'... / p class='help'This is the title of your news post, which does not accept HTML input/p /div /form But logic tells me that in the above example, the p help text is not associated with the form widget or the label at all. The only way I can see this being done is by including the help text in the label, but this will restrict me in terms of layouts. Honestly, the most logical way I can see to do this is to have them in three cells of a table row, since at least they'll be associated in a row. fieldset's would also be nice, but they're intended for groupings of form elements, and using them for each text input seems like a load of bloat. I've been looking at many examples of correct, semantic forms, but can't see anything like this out there. TIA --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] semantic way to mark up form help?
First Labels should not wrap the input. The elements within the Label tag become the label. By wrapping the input with the Label you are stating the input is part of its own Label. That's wrong. Using heading tags for font declarations is poor form and fails to meet the standards. DIV is a layer. Your better choice is P, unless you are splitting the horizontal into two or more sections which would then require either a table or a few inline DIVS. Perhaps you can show us the page you have question with? Making blind assumptions leads to disaster. I hope this helps. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Accessible image rotators
Instead of having the images pulled randomly from a directory, I would recommend you pull the information from a database or XML file. Then you can better control the accessible elements required. It will save you a major headache attempting any other method. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 12:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Accessible image rotators hello, i am using a image rotator php script in the home page of the site. The problem will image rotator scripts either in PHP or Javascript is that, they rotate the images from a particular folder randomly. But when you validate, the image will not have alt tag or a title tag to make it accessible. How do i make that. any ideas. narain R.L. Narayan +91-98401 08007 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Donna, You can get the toolbar at http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/index.html. It's a great tool. Welcome to the group. Enjoy, Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: Donna Jones [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar Hi everyone, I just signed on to this list today and just set up a new filter and corralled all the messages. I would like to download this new toolbar for accessibility testing. Everyone's talking about it but I couldn't find a url - anyone? I'm mainly here to lurk 'n learn, don't tend to be very chatty but just thought i'd say a few words and see if i could get that toolbar! :-) TIA and thanks to the list admin and thanks to all the regular contributors. warm regards, Donna Jones Lee Roberts wrote: Congratulations to NILS for such a fantastic tool. Your use of the simulator is perfection and can help people understand how others view their web sites. Steven, I thank you and your fellow programmers. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar The reasons why the new version of the web accessibility toolbar is IE only: 1. there was a gap in the market, no tools comparable to those available for mozilla were/are available for IE 2. our programming expertise is limited (if somebody wants to work with us on versions for other browsers/operating systems we'd be interested) 3. our resources are very limited as this project is unfunded so we work on it between paid work and in our spare time. 4. while some people realise that there are better browsers than IE out there, their uptake is still very small , and my original idea was to raise awareness of accessibility issues and provide the tools to the masses. 5. For better or worse many assistive technology users use IE for web browsing, so i tend to use it for accessibility testing and browsing due to this circumstance. 6. What time I have had to work on developing the toolbar has so far been directed at improving the functionality and collaborating with others to create versions in other languages. with regards Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant National Information Library Service (NILS) 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] National Information Library Service A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * -- Donna Jones, 772-0266 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Opera says, Opera has been designed to recognize and work with many plug-ins that work with Netscape. Then in the same paragraph Opera says, If you don't see a certain program listed here, and you would like to know if it works with Opera, please give it a try! People often figure out how to get plug-ins working with Opera by themselves. We also recommend that you visit our plug-ins newsgroup. You may find the answer to your plug-in problem there, or you can post your own solution for how to get specific plug-ins to work with Opera. Further information, Opera says, Before you install a plug-in for use with Opera, you should set up your computer to show all files on your system, including system, hidden, and dynamic link library (.dll) files. This is because most plug-ins will install their own .dll files on your computer, and these are the files you will need to find in order to use the plug-in with Opera. Interesting that Opera tells its users how to hack things to make it work with Opera if Opera does not support it. Again, proof that no plug-in has been designed or developed to work with Opera. All this information is available at http://www.opera.com/support/service/plugins/. The beginning of that page states, This page describes how to get some of the most common plug-ins to work with Opera, and why some of them won't. Since there are thousands of plug-ins and applications out there, please try to contact those who made the plug-in/application to find out if it works with Opera, and how. Interesting that you wish to continue to claim that plug-ins are designed for Opera. That's a major misrepresentation. Opera specifically states it was developed so OPERA works with plug-ins built for other browsers. No, plug-ins have been developed to work specifically with Opera. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar The voices are telling me that Lee Roberts said on 7/13/2004 7:36 PM: Interesting concept there and I'm glad it works. Problem is still the same. No one made a tool for Opera. You just hacked a solution to make it do what you wanted it to do. Without your excellent knowledge and fine instructions the average computer user wouldn't know how to do those things. Actually, if you read closely, what I posted is a way to combine the already existing and excellent web developers' menu by Toby Inkster, which you can get at http://goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=10 and Rijk van Geijtenbeek's blog menu. I just included the link to my blog because: (a) I'm a blog pimp, and (b) At least one of y'all is going to want to put on both the blog menu and the W3Dev menu. I know, you *say* you'll never want to, and then I get these whining emails: You broke my blog menu! I hate to be so disagreeable (well, that's a lie, I love it), but in fact there's quite a few neat-o tools for Opera, and with a little effort you can find links to them on Opera's website. Here's one http://www.crispen.org/etc/search.zip they probably won't link to. Opera gets a couple of bucks for having their search menus point to some corporate search engines. You can't begrudge them the money, but there's others I like better. Unzip this in your profile directory for Opera 7.5. -- Rev. Bob Bob Crispen bob at crispen dot org Ex Cathedra Weblog: http://blog.crispen.org/ Don't ask yourself what the world needs - ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive. -- Howard Thurman * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] standards badges
Without even reading what the person says, I will agree. The consumer has no idea what we're talking about when it comes to accessibility. Linking to any accessibility validator simply fails to provide the information people want and need. They want and need to be educated. Creating an accessibility policy can be simple or it can be as hard as you want. But, you can't simply state that you developed your web site so it meets WAI A, AA or AAA or Section 508. People don't understand that and definitely don't understand the language developers use. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Ted Drake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] standards badges there is a good posting at the following web site about posting our badges of honor for valid web sites: http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/wearing_badges_is_not_enough.html I like his suggestion to send people to an internal page that describes the accessibility attributes of the site. What standards are and how they will benefit. He suggests this is better than sending them to cynthia or bobby or even worse a dry w3c.com page. Check out the sample text included in the post. Ted * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Regardless of what the AT supports or not makes no difference in what browsers toolbar developers can support. Here's why they don't support any other browser: IE is a fixed solution with very little change. IE6 came out in 2001 and has had only one service pack release in three years. SP2 is due out soon, but no one knows when it will be out. The Gecko based browsers are fluid due to their open source nature. Opera could be easily supported, but no one makes tools for that small group. Safari could be supported, but I don't know of any company that adds plug-in toolbars for it either. Thanks, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Patrick Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:23 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar From: Lee Roberts [...] It's bad enough everyone thinks they need to do it, but for an accessibility group to do it I'm flabbergasted. most current screenreaders / assistive technologie hook into IE in some way to provide web browsing. so it's still a harsh reality that some user groups WILL have to use IE, and developers need to therefore at least test their pages in this browser. offering this toolbar to the developers just makes life a little easier...now if i have a page open in IE i can do most of my validation etc there as well, rather than having to copy the URL and paste it into firefox, to take advantage of the web developer extension. and yes, some functions - like the colour ones, which - i believe - use IE's proprietary filters to simulate b/w display etc - are very useful and not directly replicated in other toolbars (Mozilla/Firefox ones or otherwise). see it as another one of many tools available to developers, not as a social commentary or a validation of IE's merits. Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Rev. Bob, Interesting concept there and I'm glad it works. Problem is still the same. No one made a tool for Opera. You just hacked a solution to make it do what you wanted it to do. Without your excellent knowledge and fine instructions the average computer user wouldn't know how to do those things. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 2:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar The voices are telling me that Lee Roberts said on 7/13/2004 11:28 AM: The Gecko based browsers are fluid due to their open source nature. Opera could be easily supported, but no one makes tools for that small group. Au contraire: http://blog.crispen.org/archives/000302.html describes hot to install the w3-dev menu and the blogging menu. -- Rev. Bob Bob Crispen bob at crispen dot org Ex Cathedra Weblog: http://blog.crispen.org/ Don't ask yourself what the world needs - ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive. -- Howard Thurman * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar
Congratulations to NILS for such a fantastic tool. Your use of the simulator is perfection and can help people understand how others view their web sites. Steven, I thank you and your fellow programmers. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Accessability IE Toolbar The reasons why the new version of the web accessibility toolbar is IE only: 1. there was a gap in the market, no tools comparable to those available for mozilla were/are available for IE 2. our programming expertise is limited (if somebody wants to work with us on versions for other browsers/operating systems we'd be interested) 3. our resources are very limited as this project is unfunded so we work on it between paid work and in our spare time. 4. while some people realise that there are better browsers than IE out there, their uptake is still very small , and my original idea was to raise awareness of accessibility issues and provide the tools to the masses. 5. For better or worse many assistive technology users use IE for web browsing, so i tend to use it for accessibility testing and browsing due to this circumstance. 6. What time I have had to work on developing the toolbar has so far been directed at improving the functionality and collaborating with others to create versions in other languages. with regards Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant National Information Library Service (NILS) 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] National Information Library Service A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Interesting read, but seems they also propose we cease developing for IE. Microsoft doesn't want to improve their software because they want to do it their way. Sure, they have representatives working with the W3C and is a full member. But, as was realized during Thursday's conference call they simply don't care about meeting standards. They claim people have a choice. Let's examine that for a moment. Twenty percent of the Internet population is disabled. Approximately 80% of those have low vision or are blind. So, those using screen readers like JAWS show up in stats as IE users. So, let's take 18% from the 85% and were now down to 67% of the world using IE. Another 3 or 4 percent use Opera and give the impression that they are using IE so they can get pass the garbage codes. Now, we're down to approximately 63%. Dang, where did all those IE users go? Don't ever think people don't use other browsers. And don't be fooled by Microsoft's statement that people have no choice. We already see 18 - 22% don't have a choice in how their browser is identified or what they can use. Now Microsoft wants to embed IE more into their operating system. Watch people not upgrade. I know I won't. I'll be using Linux when I upgrade. I already use Firefox and Netscape more than anything else. I will have to find a word processor and email client I that offers me the features I want. My position on standards is that all developers should follow them. I won't hire anyone that refuses to learn and use them. Unfortunately, part of our shopping cart requires Microsoft technologies which I hate but have no current alternate option. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 6:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) FYI: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1086387609order=1count=10 Good read. Hit some points I tried to hit but failed :) Scott Scott Barnes wrote: Hi All, Firstly thankyou for contributing in this discussion, i know most of you are probably feeling who is this clown, attacking W3C. This is not infact the case, I am merely trying to get an overall understanding of why and where bodies like the W3C will be in the future. In doing so i have illustrated what in my mind is a flaw, in that the W3C is made up of a few selected Elite, and the little guy you, me and every other developer out their has no voice on the subject matter of whether DOM should be refined or whether some obscure CSS property is retrofitted accordingly. A few points have been made that Democracy in this case would be a fatal blow to the overall purpose of what the W3C represents. I find that a very hard thing to stomach and believe that a few would simply say that a vote would be a long drawn out exhausting process. To me if we can elect people within our society (in some countries) to run an entire country based on information we are given? Surely its not that much of a stretch in imagination to ask that we the ACTUAL development community have a say in the way standards are put forward to the world to follow? Its not a very large request? At some point the W3C have to cast some kind of vote to go forward on something along those lines, and thats where I would love to see us contribute. I'm not for a total abolishment of the W3C, they serve a purpose well, but I feel we should either be a virtual member (ie we the people collectively make one vote at least) or we ultimatley decide the outcome based on what they have put forward? We aren't dealing with an amount of people who cast their vote because its the most popular at the time, we are a diverse amount of individuals who come from every known social background with a huge array of beliefs and vast amounts of life experience! It is a radical idea that I know, but for me as a developer to take the W3C seriously, i need at least some sense of ownership, otherwise its just another collection of windbags telling me how technology should be run the standards way. I put it to you, a country today were to sit back and say to the people yeah, we have decided that in order to best run the country, we will select a few of our so called elite, they will make the choices on how we we will be governed and you go about your lives, as democracy isn't as easy as it sounds and you'll just drag us back. insert war here I've been making websites since i think 1996 or was it 1995, I've seen the HTML go from a very basic format into what it is now, some may have been around longer but the point is, i've seen it at its best, and I've seen it at its worst. I've seen browsers dictate the outcomes of many a standard and we are paying the price for it now. In years to come, i have serious doubt the W3C will in fact be a worthwile
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Scott wrote: [quote]I dunno, personally i have set reservations on webstandards being set and expected to be followed no questions asked. You can join and contribute ideas to the w3c but i can't find anywhere where i can participate in some way as to how end decisions get made? unless i am an organization that appears to pay for such privilege?[/quote] If you want to participate please let me know in what manner or group you would like to participate. I'll get you where you need to be. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) Hugh Todd wrote: Scott, you said, If this IS the case, what benefits are we getting as developers for taking on extra headaches in making it W3C compliant (who by the way aren't an international elected body - more of a group that have taken liberty to makeup standards). Who would elect such a body? Web designers? Governments? Users? The UN? True, its just amazing how we blindly follow a cluster of people? based on the fact we hero-worship them in some way or form? What if they actually put concepts to a public vote? the web itself could vote on yes (you couldn't ask for a more diverse separated parallel society), lets abolish/implement xyz or no lets not? In that set a time frame, all votes are final, done. Wonder how a concept like this, in its basic democratic form would impact on future browser development? At the moment most browser development teams probably could only hazard a guess on what features to make w3c compliant and what ones not to (can't do them all in one hit in that or implement new approved standards). To me this would give me the little a guy at least a voice in something, while at the same time giving Browser based technologies out there an actual statistical impact study on what actual new/old issues are hot vs ones aren't furthermore it gives me the little guy who would like to help shape the online language we have come to know and love. I mean, I'm sure the people in the w3c gang are really smart monkeys, but like all clusters of people, politics could end up driving it (whether it be some small hidden demon within who voted No on something purely because the guy who thought it up made a bad XMAS party joke about him)? its why we as a society just fail at coming to a collective decision on topics unless a majority ruling is in fact in place (look to local governments). I dunno, personally i have set reservations on webstandards being set and expected to be followed no questions asked. You can join and contribute ideas to the w3c but i can't find anywhere where i can participate in some way as to how end decisions get made? unless i am an organization that appears to pay for such privilege? Like all open free good ideas, they are great on paper, but it needs money to make them work. So to answer your question, Who would elect such a body why my good man, The web. As it is, we have the major browser manufacturers on board, the guy who invented the web heading it up, and some of the clearest-thinking, most far-sighted people in the web community making contributions that aim to free the web from proprietory chains and dead-end hacks, with as elegant solutions as can be devised. What more could you want? far-sighted? or near-sighted? how do you measure their progress on a daily basis? furthermore what impact are they having on new features? are they simply there for profile sake, are they active? do they embrace new technology with just as much passion as we seem to do? or are they traditional conservative people? ... in other words just because they invented the web many a year ago, is it a big ask for us to follow their lead still? or is it a matter of retiring the old lion and make way for the upstart cub? Scott. Down with proprietory solutions, I say! -Hugh Todd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Why don't you participate in one of the working groups? That would lend your experience and possibly make things better. Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 1:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) Lee Roberts wrote: Scott wrote: [quote]I dunno, personally i have set reservations on webstandards being set and expected to be followed no questions asked. You can join and contribute ideas to the w3c but i can't find anywhere where i can participate in some way as to how end decisions get made? unless i am an organization that appears to pay for such privilege?[/quote] If you want to participate please let me know in what manner or group you would like to participate. I'll get you where you need to be. Yes, I'll forward that on in a bit, but is this a who you need to know in order to participate or is it an open forum? I mean, i'm talking things like basic polls, we login through a serious of identification checks to validate you are one person, click vote yes/no log out? Is this possible for individuals? Scott * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Now why did you go and do that? Now I have to give someone else a history lesson this week. JavaScript was created in 1994 by the Netscape Communications Corporation. CSS was created in 1996 and released as a specification December 17, 1996. DHMTL was created in 1996 when CSS was released. There are many that think JavaScript or JScript allowed the creation of DHTML. Regrettably, that was never the case. If you visit any of those DHTML scripting sites you'll notice they do not include any form of CSS. JavaScript cannot change HTML, only CSS can change HTML. Therefore, CSS makes HTML dynamic. DOM was created in 1998. [quote]Dynamic HTML is a term used by some vendors to describe the combination of HTML, style sheets and scripts that allows documents to be animated. The W3C has received several submissions from members companies on the way in which the object model of HTML documents should be exposed to scripts. These submissions do not propose any new HTML tags or style sheet technology. The W3C DOM Activity is working hard to make sure interoperable and scripting-language neutral solutions are agreed upon.[quote] So, any shop or company that uses hack-programmers claiming to know DHTML and they want to give me a bunch of JavaScript, I simply tell them to take a hike off a short pier. There are a few things we cannot do with CSS that we can do with JavaScript, but certainly validating a form prior to submitting is not dynamic HTML. Neither is providing a clock. Nor JavaScript menus. Use CSS for menus and you got it made in the dynamics of HTML. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com PS: I'll let someone else change the subject if they like. -Original Message- From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) Lee Roberts wrote: Scott wants to know who voted the W3C the ruling authority. That was me! 20 years on the *net gave me that right. Oh so you were the one? hehehehe Seriously, though, who voted the ISO or IETF to be authoritative enough to establish rules for people using the Internet and World Wide Web, oh yes there is a difference? Who established the rules for the World Wide Web which ethical designers and developers attempt to follow? If web development is your job, don't you think you should be good enough to follow the rules established? If you were a construction builder wouldn't you have to follow rules? As for iframe, I don't like it either. I've used it once, but the page it was pulling in was a flash communications presentation for my radio show. As for frames, they were the most ignorant thing ever created. Personally, they should be allowed to exist today, but for some reason we can't get rid of them by some developers. Well, to answer that i dare you to walk into any web-based enterprise that has a DHTML intranet, and say the following words: Get rid of IFRAMES, and use something else Wear some padding, as the fall from the window could be high. hehe Seriously, lets get into the whole iframe use. 508 stuff, not up to speed on, but most DHTML based applications would be a luxury to get 508 compatible. SOE are a saviour to the DHTML breed, and while i try to make as much as my applications close to being accessible with usability it just doesn't happen. IFRAME = Internal frame, if we are to emulate the client-top generation of software within a browser, its the one little trick we have left. As for using them on the web? well i used them many years ago for my personal site, simply because it was easy at the time (mind my site is horrible, needs bad need of update/doover). Making an actual public website today, seems to be one big juggling act imho, and i'm glad i'm not really required to be a public facade developer and more a SOE. You have to keep in mind, there are two main clusters using the web browser / html language. Internal Corporations and Public Users, while one thing works for one, ther other percentage works for another etc. The real problem with frames is people don't know how to use them in the first place. Second, they lack any real features for accessibility. For SEO purposes they are really bad. Frames were allowed in the beginning because browsers didn't have very good caching abilities. Now that they do, you don't need them. They won't help. That or i'd put it in another way in that they existed for the ability to dynamically render information on screen, while keeping other parts static reducing overall latency and downloads. Perhaps that will help some. Scrolling DIVs at least put all the information on the same page, unless you plan on pulling in another page. In my opinion the latter is a mistake. Search engines say all content must be visible, it never says you can't scroll a DIV to see all the information
RE: [WSG]headers
That's about as brief as my answers. [quote] The Semantic Web provides a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries.[/quote] I'm afraid that has nothing to do with human interaction. It is simply the sharing of information between programs and businesses. [quote]Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) is a simple mechanism for adding style (e.g. fonts, colors, spacing) to Web documents.[/quote] Seems pretty straight forward to me. Regardless of whether a person optimizes their heading tags or not makes no difference to me. It can be done and still make sense. Heading tags are meant to be scanning points. Not to harp on Kim's page, but the use of h3 was clearly a font declaration. Clearly no form of scanning capabilities were granted by their use. Drew [quote]You claim it is rare to have chapter or book names on each page yet you cite an example in which 3 of the 4 books you pick up have just that.[/quote] Lee [quote]With four books in my immediate reach, three have the book title on the left page and the chapter title on the right page.[/quote] If we examine the two statements as a computer would, we find a difference. Your statement clearly indicates that the book and chapter titles are on EACH page, meaning both elements. My statement clearly says the book title is on the left page and the chapter title is on the right page; both are not on each page. With boolean algebra your statement requires both to be true; mine requires only one to be true. I hope this clears up some issues. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Trusz, Andrew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 6:02 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [WSG]headers Nothing wrong with a length where appropriate but double length is probably trying everyone's patience so I'll be slightly rude and top post while trying virtuously to be brief. It's an interesting argument you make that css was given to us to make pages look and perform as we want them to. This is perhaps where I go wrong. I thought css was an integral part of an attempt to create a web in which both machine and human are capable of responding to the nuances of language, Berners-Lee, Hendler and Lassila's semantic web. In this endeavor, the specs for html and xhtml define the structure of pages. Meanings are set for element like headers, lists, paragraphs, divisions, etc which instruct browsers and standards aware search engines on how that element is to be interpreted. In our example, what the levels of headers indicate about the relative importance of some content in relationship to a larger whole (the section and perhaps the site but not necessarily). As outlined in the standards these structural rules provide a sophisticated level of nuance for machine interpretation. CSS works in two dimensions. First with positioning it implements the structural elements of the specs. So using h1 solely to influence seo is simply wrong and should actually result in poor ranking since the content would be disjointed and confused, assuming a standards aware search engine. Secondly, css provides the human oriented nuances, the semantics. Font style, sizes, colors, gewgaws and whirligigs of all types are focused on human senses not machine code. WCAG provides alternatives for those for whom other semantic meanings are necessary. It seems to me that if w3c is the touchstone then other standards are either incorporated in its standards or they should be regarded as suggested codes of behavior not as mandatory. So ISO may give us a version of best practices but it isn't obligatory. What should be obligatory is that browsers which don't follow standards display pages with the dreaded unanticipated results. Not because the browser is built to do that but because pages are properly written and won't display as intended in a browser that doesn't follow the rules. End users would quickly tire of a browser that produced gibberish, in a more perfect world. The ability of authors alone to bring about such a state of affairs is somewhat problematic as I think we'd all agree. If this isn't how it is intended to work, then we're wasting our time discussing semantics (which we are defining wrong, but that's a different discussion). It's every standard for itself and the devil take the hindmost. We know where that leads. Search engines are more of the same. Should search engines dictate standards or should standards dictate search engines? That's a long term educational process which may well be settled by what kind of user agents emerge either as part of browsers or as complimentary technologies. But in any case, standards should never be compromised for seo. (Is this the place for the conspiratorial wink and nod?). Since I've failed at brevity let me mention your book publishing example in closing. You claim it is rare to have chapter
RE: [WSG]headers
Let's look at the Introduction to the Semantic Web. [quote] Facilities to put machine-understandable data on the Web are becoming a high priority for many communities. The Web can reach its full potential only if it becomes a place where data can be shared and processed by automated tools as well as by people. For the Web to scale, tomorrow's programs must be able to share and process data even when these programs have been designed totally independently. The Semantic Web is a vision: the idea of having data on the web defined and linked in a way that it can be used by machines not just for display purposes, but for automation, integration and reuse of data across various applications.[/quote] Now, let us examine the last sentence of that quote. [quote]The Semantic Web is a vision: the idea of having data on the web defined and linked in a way that it can be used by machines not just for display purposes, but for automation, integration and reuse of data across various applications.[/quote] It clearly explains that the semantic web is about sharing information across applications and machines. Humans interact with the information by reading and understanding the information. Then turning to their associates and sharing the ideas and concepts. Machines and applications did not have access to that type of interaction until the Semantic web. Prior to RDF, XML and the like it was virtually impossible to share information across platforms and applications. Well, it was not exactly impossible; it was more a security risk. So, now we have the Semantic web that allows a shopping cart owner to send an XML feed to Froogle. Or, we have RSS which allows us to share news feeds between news sources. Even weblogs allow RSS feeds to occur now. All that joined together allows computers to use the same information for various applications. Even business data can be shared without the concern that the database would be hacked and confidential information released. The Semantic web has nothing to do with how headings are used on a web page. I hope this clears that little issue up. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Trusz, Andrew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:57 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [WSG]headers That's about as brief as my answers. [quote] The Semantic Web provides a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries.[/quote] Here's the full quote Lee: The Semantic Web provides a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries. It is a collaborative effort led by W3C with participation from a large number of researchers and industrial partners. It is based on the Resource Description Framework (RDF), which integrates a variety of applications using XML for syntax and URIs for naming. The Semantic Web is an extension of the current web in which information is given well-defined meaning, better enabling computers and people to work in cooperation. -- Tim Berners-Lee, James Hendler, Ora Lassila, The Semantic Web, Scientific American, May 2001 I'm afraid that has nothing to do with human interaction. It is simply the sharing of information between programs and businesses. Here's the full quote Lee: The Semantic Web provides a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries. It is a collaborative effort led by W3C with participation from a large number of researchers and industrial partners. It is based on the Resource Description Framework (RDF), which integrates a variety of applications using XML for syntax and URIs for naming. The Semantic Web is an extension of the current web in which information is given well-defined meaning, better enabling computers and people to work in cooperation. -- Tim Berners-Lee, James Hendler, Ora Lassila, The Semantic Web, Scientific American, May 2001 Now to me that says it has a lot to do with people, as do the examples offered in the original article. In fact the article says the point of the exercise it to make cooperation easier and more meaningful between machines and people and thereby between people. RDF has a universal definition of data with the understanding that it is the humans who give the data final meaning. RDF makes it possible for machines to exchange data within a structured framework (ontology) that encompasses human meanings. Those meanings are both universal in ontologies and personal in the value chains used to instruct personal software agents. It's not about business, it's about life of which business is only a part. Lee wrote: [quote]Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) is a simple mechanism for adding style (e.g. fonts, colors, spacing) to Web documents.[/quote
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
JSP was release June 2, 1999. Anything prior to that and they misrepresent themselves. http://java.sun.com/features/2000/06/time-line.html I hope that helps. Lee Roberts From: Robert O'Neill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:48 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) While your giving a history lesson, do you know when Sun first introduced Java Server Pages. Just need to check someone in not telling fibs on their CV. Please visit the PPA Website at: www.ppa.org.uk Rob O'NeillWeb Team ManagerPrescription Pricing AuthorityBridge House152 Pilgrim StreetNewcastle Upon TyneNE1 6SN email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: (0191) 203 5246ext: 5246 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/07/2004 13:45:15 Now why did you go and do that? Now I have to give someone else a historylesson this week._javascript_ was created in 1994 by the Netscape Communications Corporation. CSS was created in 1996 and released as a specification December 17, 1996. DHMTL was created in 1996 when CSS was released. There are many that think_javascript_ or JScript allowed the creation of DHTML. Regrettably, that wasnever the case. If you visit any of those DHTML scripting sites you'llnotice they do not include any form of CSS._javascript_ cannot change HTML, only CSS can change HTML. Therefore, CSSmakes HTML dynamic. DOM was created in 1998.[quote]"Dynamic HTML" is a term used by some vendors to describe thecombination of HTML, style sheets and scripts that allows documents to beanimated. The W3C has received several submissions from members companies onthe way i n which the object model of HTML documents should be exposed toscripts. These submissions do not propose any new HTML tags or style sheettechnology. The W3C DOM Activity is working hard to make sure interoperableand scripting-language neutral solutions are agreed upon.[quote]So, any shop or company that uses hack-programmers claiming to know DHTMLand they want to give me a bunch of _javascript_, I simply tell them to take ahike off a short pier.There are a few things we cannot do with CSS that we can do with _javascript_,but certainly validating a form prior to submitting is not dynamic HTML.Neither is providing a clock. Nor _javascript_ menus. Use CSS for menus andyou got it made in the dynamics of HTML.Lee Robertshttp://www.roserockdesign.comhttp://www.applepiecart.comPS: I'll let someone else change the subject if they like.- Original Message -From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:50 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)Lee Roberts wrote:Scott wants to know who voted the W3C the ruling authority.That was me! 20 years on the *net gave me that right. Oh so you were the one? heheheheSeriously, though, who voted the ISO or IETF to be authoritative enough to establish rules for people using the Internet and World Wide Web, oh yes there is a difference? Who established the rules for the World Wide Web which ethical designers and developers attempt to follow?If web development is your job, don't you think you should be good enough to follow the rules established? If you were a construction builder wouldn't you have to f ollow rules?As for iframe, I don't like it either. I've used it once, but the page it was pulling in was a flash communications presentation for my radioshow.As for frames, they were the most ignorant thing ever created. Personally, they should be allowed to exist today, but for some reason we can't get rid of them by some developers. Well, to answer that i dare you to walk into any web-based enterprise thathas a DHTML intranet, and say the following words:"Get rid of IFRAMES, and use something else"Wear some padding, as the fall from the window could be high.heheSeriously, lets get into the whole iframe use. 508 stuff, not up to speedon, but most DHTML based applications would be a luxury to get 508compatible. SOE are a saviour to the DHTML breed, and while i try to make asmuch as my applications close to being accessible with usability it justdoesn't happe n.IFRAME = Inter nal frame, if we are to emulate the client-top generation ofsoftware within a browser, its the one little trick we have left. As forusing them on the web? well i used them many years ago for my personal site,simply because it was easy at the time (mind my site is horrible, needsbad need of update/doover). Making an actual public website today,seems to be one big juggling act imho, and i'm glad i'm not really requiredto be a public facade developer and more a SOE.You have to keep in mind, there are two main clusters using the web browser/ html language. Internal Corporations and Pub
RE: [WSG]headers
How we got on the subject of the Semantic web from headers I don't know. I think we're somehow missing the entire point of the Semantic web. Even prior to the development of RDF, OWL, XML and the like people were able to partake and consume the information available from various sources. It was not until RDF, OWL, XML and the like were computers able to understand and process the information across platform, computer, and businesses. If IBM wanted to share information with HP they had to allow access to files or provide files to HP. IBM would not, for security reasons, share their database with HP. Chase Manhattan Bank may want to share information with Australia National Bank (may be fictitious). For them to do it they had to send files, tapes or printed material. For Chase Manhattan Bank to share information with the credit reporting agencies they had to send tapes. The Semantic web has changed that. Any computer connected to the WWW can share information with another computer through Resource Description Framework which uses XML to share information. So, no longer to we have to keep our information to ourselves. We can share that information by dynamically creating an XML file from a database and granting access to that file using the Universal Resource Identifier. Still doesn't have anything to do with a heading tag. Think of it as an early form of the artificial intelligence we see in movies such as Terminator 3. Eventually computers will be able to talk to each other which is what makes a semantic web. Semantic is defined basically as understanding the meaning of words. Relating to the meaning of written or spoken words. http://www.google.com/search?hl=enie=UTF-8q=define%3AsemanticbtnG=Google+ Search Computers so far do not understand the meaning of written or spoken words. They can be programmed to respond to verbal commands of one word, but they don't understand them. We're not in the land of Star Trek yet. Hopefully this clears it up. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] (Understandable) Myths about the W3C WAI
Geoff, Great post. Nope, I'm not in an ivory tower. Just an old guy. Anyone that wants to participate can. Like Geoff pointed out you do not need to make the teleconferences. However, if you wish to use IRC you can and save yourself a long distance phone charge. Many people outside the USA use IRC. Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: Geoff Deering [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:37 PM To: WebStandardsGroup Subject: [WSG] (Understandable) Myths about the W3C WAI Hi, I'd just like to try and dispel a few commonly held myths about the processes of standards and the groups that form them at the W3C, and in particular, the W3C WAI Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group. I raise these issues, because it is quite understandable that many people come to certain conclusions about the W3C WAI process, such as the views Scott Barnes expresses here (http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/msg06709.html). So I'd just like to put forward these points. 1. It may appear that groups like the W3C WAI Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group are some group of elite people in an ivory tower somewhere, but actually it is an open group, and you can join it today, if you want. There are three types of people on that group; 1) members that are placed there by companies that are sponsors of the W3C, 2) invited experts 3) people who want to get involved in the process. The third group make up the majority of WAI, and there are a number of such people on that group from Melbourne. They are the little people (hobbits), like the rest of us. If this is something you really want to contribute too, and make your voice heard, as a developer, whatever, here is the charter, the guide to participation and the How to Join. http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/new-charter-2000.html#participants http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/howto-join-wg.html You don't have to attend the Face to Face meetings, and it is not compulsory to attend the weekly teleconferences (but you are required to email a Regret Cannot Attend). If you are concerned about the direction of WAI and the work on WCAG2 (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/) you should note in that document that it is a working draft. Being a working draft it is open to public comment. The group definitely wants your feedback and concerns, they do not want to it to get to Recommendation and there be oversights. They really do work hard at try to make these recommendations none restrictive on developers. Just look at the discussion list for WAI-GL to verify this. The fifth paragraph of Status of this Document states; quote The Working Group welcomes comments on this document at [EMAIL PROTECTED] The archives for this list are publicly available. Archives of the WCAG WG mailing list discussions are also publicly available. /quote So you can get involved and provide feedback without having to join the W3C WAI GL. Does the W3C WAI GL work with the manufactures of User Agents (browsers)? They certainly do (http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/). And they have a set of guidelines that User Agents are *meant* to comply with (http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/). Here is a list of participants (http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wai-ua-members.html). If you feel some companies on this list are asleep at the wheel, then raise that issue with them and ask them what the hell are they doing if they are on that list and not working on trying to comply with those standards. There is also the UAAG FAQ http://www.w3.org/2002/10/uaag10-faq/ You can evaluate user agents conformance http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2002/08/eval. You can also get involved with the Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines Working Group (http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/) and their working draft of ATAG2 (http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/). This too is open for public comment. You can help by doing Authoring Tool Evaluations (http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2002/tools). quote Please send comments about this document to the public mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (public archives). Please note that this document may contain typographical errors. It was published as soon as possible since review of the content itself is important, although noting typographical errors is also helpful. /quote Also see http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Overview.html Another way to get involved in the whole process is to work as a group to put pressure on User Agent and Authoring Tools developers to meet the standards. One way of doing this would be to review UAs and ATs and apply the test criteria as set down in these standards and publish them on the web site associated with this list or the Web Standards Project (or your own blog), whatever. If you really want to find out more about the W3C and WAI, how it works, how it interacts, about the standards, blah, blah, blah, the Melbourne Group could invite Charles McCathieNevile (http://www.w3.org/People/Charles/) to one of their meetings when he is in Melbourne. Another Australian W3C
RE: [WSG]headers
interpret. I can give my opinion, but then they would learn my way of doing things and not learn from their mistakes. So, if you have intentions to learn how to use the standards correctly, I would recommend you read all applicable standards. In the case of HTML I would recommend you read the ISO standards as well. The W3C standards are general guidelines like there are general laws. Then the ISO gets more specific because of their organizational rules. We can compare the W3C to each State having a law that there will be a general speed limit on all unmarked roads. Then we can look at the ISO as roads posted with a 55 miles per hour speed limit being a specific requirement. I hope this helps. My apologies for being so long. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Mike Foskett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG]headers Drew, Mike, So, if I get this right then technically speaking: titlePage name - Site name/title divSite name/div [not visible 2nd part of the title - Placed behind an image of the same] h1Content (Page name) heading/h1 [visible 1st part of the title] h2/h2 [repeat as required keeping all sub headings in the correct order] h3/h3 h2/h2 h3/h3 h4/h4 h3/h3 h2/h2 div spanNavigation/span [not visible, span is of no use to no-vision, but okay for lo-vision, users] [list of links] /div div spanExternal links/span[not visible] h2link heading/h2 [this heading has to be a h2 because you cannot guarantee a h2 in the content] [text link] h2link heading/h2 [text link] /div div spanFooter links/span[not visible] [list of links] /div Note: [not visible] means you cannot see it but neither visibility:hidden nor display:none are used. Hmm. I have observed vision-impaired users skipping through h? tags as the preferred method of navigating a page. The tendency is not to use the access keys even though they happily know they are there. This is due I believe to inconsistencies in the declarations, and availability, on pages world-wide. My concern is now that by removing the h? tags from the navigation sections, I'm actually making the page a lot less accessible. For the best compromise while keeping it all accessible, I'm now considering: titlePage name - Site name/title divSite name/div [not visible 2nd part of the title - Placed behind an image of the same] h1Content (Page name) heading/h1 [visible 1st part of the title] h2/h2 [repeat as required, keeping all sub headings in the correct order] h3/h3 h2/h2 h3/h3 h4/h4 h3/h3 h2/h2 h2Navigation/h2[not visible, h2 is good for both no-vision and lo-vision users] [list of links] h3External links/h3[not visible] h4link heading/h4 [text link] h4link heading/h4 [text link] h3Footer links/h3 [not visible] [list of links] Would that be in my best interest and a good balance? mike 2k:)2 ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Scott wants to know who voted the W3C the ruling authority. That was me! 20 years on the *net gave me that right. Seriously, though, who voted the ISO or IETF to be authoritative enough to establish rules for people using the Internet and World Wide Web, oh yes there is a difference? Who established the rules for the World Wide Web which ethical designers and developers attempt to follow? If web development is your job, don't you think you should be good enough to follow the rules established? If you were a construction builder wouldn't you have to follow rules? As for iframe, I don't like it either. I've used it once, but the page it was pulling in was a flash communications presentation for my radio show. As for frames, they were the most ignorant thing ever created. Personally, they should be allowed to exist today, but for some reason we can't get rid of them by some developers. The real problem with frames is people don't know how to use them in the first place. Second, they lack any real features for accessibility. For SEO purposes they are really bad. Frames were allowed in the beginning because browsers didn't have very good caching abilities. Now that they do, you don't need them. They won't help. Perhaps that will help some. Scrolling DIVs at least put all the information on the same page, unless you plan on pulling in another page. In my opinion the latter is a mistake. Search engines say all content must be visible, it never says you can't scroll a DIV to see all the information. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Hugh Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 11:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) Scott, you said, If this IS the case, what benefits are we getting as developers for taking on extra headaches in making it W3C compliant (who by the way aren't an international elected body - more of a group that have taken liberty to makeup standards). Who would elect such a body? Web designers? Governments? Users? The UN? As it is, we have the major browser manufacturers on board, the guy who invented the web heading it up, and some of the clearest-thinking, most far-sighted people in the web community making contributions that aim to free the web from proprietory chains and dead-end hacks, with as elegant solutions as can be devised. What more could you want? Down with proprietory solutions, I say! -Hugh Todd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG]headers
Let's discuss some issues for a moment and perhaps some light will shine
upon some comments.
Drew [qoute]The vague discussion of some people not approving of
skipped levels does not say that a hierarchy of headings is
required.[/quote]
The vague discussion of some people refers to the International Standards
Organization. In their specifications they specifically state that headings
must follow a logical order and not skip any heading tags.
http://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.HTML
[quote]
The H1 element shall not be followed by an H3, H4, H5 or
H6 element without an intervening H2 element.
The H2 element shall not be followed by an H4, H5 or H6
element without an intervening H3 element.
The H3 element shall not be followed by an H5 or H6 element
without an intervening H4 element.
The H4 element shall not be followed by an H6 element without an
intervening H5 element.
An H2 element shall be preceded by an H1 element.
An H3 element shall be preceded by an H2 element.
An H4 element shall be preceded by an H3 element.
An H5 element shall be preceded by an H4 element.
An H6 element shall be preceded by an H5 element.
[/quote]
Drew [quote]So if your h1 is a multiple page grouping with h2 identifying
the separate pages, that seems proper. If your h3 is used for font sizing
and appearance, that is improper. But if the h3 is used to introduce the new
shorts, that seems proper.[/quote]
First, you can have pages without headings - that I'll agree with. However,
once you start approaching any attempt to comply with WCAG you need to
follow the standards correctly.
If, for example, the SSA.gov site has a group of related links they can be
grouped under a heading tag because those links fit into a sectional
heading.
Part of using headings properly is to aid accessibility and helping people
scan the web page. Based upon those two requirements the use of heading
tags as they are in Kim's site do not qualify - therefore, they are only
font declarations and strong or CSS:font-weight:bold should be used to
make those elements bold.
Please explain why you might think a couple of sentences qualifies to be
under it's own sectional heading. I'd really be interested in learning the
thought process there. Two sentences do not qualify for a sectional heading
in a book; why would they in a web page?
Thanks,
Lee Roberts
http://www.roserockdesign.com
http://www.applepiecart.com
From: Trusz, Andrew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 9:08 AM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: [WSG]headers
On the H1 issue, there are many people that think using an H1 around the
logo or hidden text. Unfortunately, that is improper. Your H1 should be
visible and should support the title of the page.
Yes it does... but I'm also quite confused. I thought the way I set up the
page would better if you can't see the pageand have to use a screenreader.
Is it better to use the H1, H2 and H3 tags the way you described or is the
way I use them also OK? (and that would be H1=group describtion, H2=page
describtion and H3 as describtion for the paragraphs which are short news)
Kim, here's what the html4 specs say about Headings:
quote
A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces.
Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a
table of contents for a document automatically.
There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most important and
H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in
larger fonts than less important ones.
The following example shows how to use the DIV element to associate a
heading with the document section that follows it. Doing so allows you to
define a style for the section (color the background, set the font, etc.)
with style sheets.
DIV class=section id=forest-elephants
H1Forest elephants/H1
PIn this section, we discuss the lesser known forest elephants.
...this section continues...
DIV class=subsection id=forest-habitat
H2Habitat/H2
PForest elephants do not live in trees but among them.
...this subsection continues...
/DIV
/DIV
This structure may be decorated with style information such as:
HEAD
TITLE... document title .../TITLE
STYLE type=text/css
DIV.section { text-align: justify; font-size: 12pt}
DIV.subsection { text-indent: 2em }
H1 { font-style: italic; color: green }
H2 { color: green }
/STYLE
/HEAD
Numbered sections and references
HTML does not itself cause section numbers to be generated from headings.
This facility may be offered by user agents, however. Soon, style sheet
languages such as CSS will allow authors to control the generation of
section numbers (handy for forward references in printed documents, as in
See section 7.2).
Some people consider skipping heading levels to be bad practice. They accept
H1 H2 H1 while they do
RE: [WSG]headers
There are more than W3C standards. While the W3C standards are great, they leave too much to interpretation. Hence the problem that arises here. Lee [quote]However, once you start approaching any attempt to comply with WCAG you need to follow the standards correctly.[/quote] Drew [quote]Actually what she'd have to do is apply headers according to the specs and then apply WCAG.[/quote] Drew's statement says the same thing I did. Follow the HTML specs and then apply WCAG. WCAG in the case of heading says to use them correctly. While the W3C doesn't really clarify how they should be used, the ISO standards do. I would suggest using them, they'll help a lot more. But the point of my statement was clarification of what some people means. I always thought it was helpful for someone to explain something that people don't understand so that others may understand it. Lee [quote]Part of using headings properly is to aid accessibility and helping people scan the web page. Based upon those two requirements the use of heading tags as they are in Kim's site do not qualify - therefore, they are only font declarations and strong or CSS:font-weight:bold should be used to make those elements bold. Please explain why you might think a couple of sentences qualifies to be under it's own sectional heading. I'd really be interested in learning the thought process there. Two sentences do not qualify for a sectional heading in a book; why would they in a web page?[/quote] Drew [quote]As to a two word section, it is conceivable. It probably isn't going to be great literature but there is no theoretical reason it can't be done. So let's try an h1 of fire followed by the single word hot. Not really useful but proper.[/quote] Where did I say anything about a two word section? I specifically said a couple of sentences and then two sentences. Proper language skills declares that a sentence contain a noun/pronoun, verb and subject. Anything less is actually a sentence fragment and would then need updating once the WCAG2 is released since it requires clear and easily understood language. I hope this helps. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Trusz, Andrew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 12:35 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [WSG]headers Let's discuss some issues for a moment and perhaps some light will shine upon some comments. Drew [qoute]The vague discussion of some people not approving of skipped levels does not say that a hierarchy of headings is required.[/quote] The vague discussion of some people refers to the International Standards Organization. In their specifications they specifically state that headings must follow a logical order and not skip any heading tags. http://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.HTM - So you are saying the specifications are incomplete? Some people does not equate to headers must be in hierarchical order. Readers of the specifications cannot be reasonably expected to know there are other documents which supersede the specs unless they are so informed. Where did I miss that in the specs? Either the specs are authoritative or they are not. If they are then what they say is what needs to be followed. Other material is then by definition extraneous. One can only go by what is written not what was really meant. The logic of language suggests that since the term some people was used and not a definitive statement that hierarchy order of headings need not be respected. The paragraph is saying there is a school of thought which endorses hierarchy but that the specs do not. Otherwise the language doesn't mean what it says. And that would make the document worthless. First, you can have pages without headings - that I'll agree with. However, once you start approaching any attempt to comply with WCAG you need to follow the standards correctly. Actually what she'd have to do is apply headers according to the specs and then apply WCAG. Can't say if she'd done so since I haven't looked at the site. Nor do I know exactly what WCAG standards you are saying she has to apply. You or I might have organized the material differently but that is immaterial to applying the standards properly. As to a two word section, it is conceivable. It probably isn't going to be great literature but there is no theoretical reason it can't be done. So let's try an h1 of fire followed by the single word hot. Not really useful but proper. drew * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http
RE: [WSG] Styling Text... (Andy Budd Accessibility Quiz)
Andy, You might want to run those by me since I help develop the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 3:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling Text... (Andy Budd Accessibility Quiz) Geoff Deering wrote: That is a very very poor quiz, and shows the author does not understand WCAG1 very well at all. Actually, it shows more that he does not know how to form the proper questions. The quality of the questions and quiz aside, why do you think the author doesn't understand WCAG!? My impression was the opposite. Hi Geoff, How sweet. Obviously it was just meant to be a bit of fun, but I guess you always get one or two party poopers. I'm planning to post up my answers later this evening, so please feel free to come by my site and rip them/me apart in person. Andy Budd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG]
Hello Kim, You're welcome. Continuing with out conversation and therefore keeping the posts together so people don't get confused. Let's go back to #1. (1) Your first question deals with the fact that you have the following codes in use.lia href="produkter.htm" title="Gruppe: produkt oversigt"Produkter/a/lia href="produkter/produkter.htm" title="Til produkter"Produkter/a Thosetwopiecesofcodepointtotwodifferentlocations,buthavethesametext"Produkter".Actually, both links are broken. I checked your codes and you still have the same problem. Number 2 was fixed by changing togrey letters against the red background. (3) Based upon what you are saying in your reply they are web pages on other domains. Why use _javascript_? I would use the standard a href="" target="_blank"anchor text/a to open a new window. If you're opening a small window to provide help or additional information in your domain then a _javascript_ isn't too bad and probably the best way using your codes. (4) Correct, you do not need to worry about that issue. (5) This one I left out last time. Please explain why you use an acronym tag forJette A Kaarsbøl. I would use the description about Jette being an author of abook in the viewable text (regular text on the page). (6) The links you are listing appear to be clients. Am I correct? Did you design the book cover or the web site? Thank you for letting me help. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com From: Kim Kruse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 7:00 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Hi Lee, Thank you for your detailed comments. OK... number 1 and 2 make sense.Butno 3 doesn't. In my FF 0.9 I can tab through the page with and without _javascript_ enabled. But maybe I misunderstand what you're saying. This is where I'm not sure what the best approach is. The 3 links that use pop scripts are for external pages. I would think that it would be better to open an external page in a new window but I guess it not. Is it correct not to use new windows... even I describe it in the title tags? No 4... well there are no ani gifs and no distracting motion so I guess I don't have to worry about it? I've uploaded the same page with the corrections in place. Well not the pop windows thing... I'll wait to hear what you (or others have to say about it) I would be happy if I could get a "45 things you need" review :o) Kim, (1) Your first question deals with the fact that you have the following codes in use.lia href="produkter.htm" title="Gruppe: produkt oversigt"Produkter/a/lia href="produkter/produkter.htm" title="Til produkter"Produkter/a Thosetwopiecesofcodepointtotwodifferentlocations,buthavethesametext"Produkter".Thefirstlinkisabrokenlink. (2) Check that the foreground and background colors contrast sufficiently with each other. You have this problem with your links at the bottom. They do not show up well against the red background. (3) If scripts create pop-up windows or change the active window, make sure that the user is aware this is happening. Your _javascript_ links to open new windows breaks accessibility. Using Firefox 0.8 and tabbing through the page I encounted a link that would not let me go on. a href="http://www.mouseriders.dk/jette/" onclick="popUpWin(this.href,'standard',800,600);return false;" onkeypress="popUpWin(this.href,'standard',800,600);return false;" title= "Linket aring;bner Jette A Kaarsboslash;l kommende hjemmeside i et nyt vindue"foslash;rste udkast/a That will occur on all three links you use that _javascript_ on. (4) If this .gif image is animated, make sure it does not contain fast or distracting motion. All of your images are .gif files. Since the program can't tell what you are doing with your images it asks you to check to make sure you have no problems. Fixing these things will help. If you would like a further review let me know. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com
RE: [WSG]
Hello Kim, Strict requires all pages to be opened in the same window. Regardless of how you do the _javascript_ it will not provide an accessible option. My recommendation would be to remove the onkeypress and use tabindex and accesskey. Then the person can open those links in new windows. I would have the links openin a new window and that window be a regular window- not like you have now. Let us discuss heading tags for a moment. You seem to be using your heading tags improperly. Your H1 tag is the same on all pages and linked to your homepage. That is improper. H1 tags help define the topic of the page. Subsequent heading tags should support or be a sub-heading of the previous heading. Your H3 headings seem to be used for font sizing.You cannot use heading tags for font size declarations. They must be used for real headings. 3.5 Use header elements to convey document structure and use them according to specification. [Priority2] For example, in HTML, use H2 to indicate a subsection of H1. Do not use headers for font effects. I hope this helps further. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com From: Kim Kruse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 11:41 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] Hi Lee, Continuing with out conversation and therefore keeping the posts together so people don't get confused. Let's go back to #1. (1) Your first question deals with the fact that you have the following codes in use.lia href="produkter.htm" title="Gruppe: produkt oversigt"Produkter/a/lia href="produkter/produkter.htm" title="Til produkter"Produkter/a Thosetwopiecesofcodepointtotwodifferentlocations,buthavethesametext"Produkter".Actually, both links are broken. I checked your codes and you still have the same problem. Sorry about that... I missed it. Should be fixed now (The dir isen't up yet... but the link is pointing to the right place) Number 2 was fixed by changing togrey letters against the red background. (3) Based upon what you are saying in your reply they are web pages on other domains. Why use _javascript_? I would use the standard a href="" target="_blank"anchor text/a to open a new window. That isen't xhtml strict... is it? If you're opening a small window to provide help or additional information in your domain then a _javascript_ isn't too bad and probably the best way using your codes. So since the links are for other domains wouldthe best solutionnot be to use plain links and no new windows? (4) Correct, you do not need to worry about that issue. (5) This one I left out last time. Please explain why you use an acronym tag forJette A Kaarsbøl. I would use the description about Jette being an author of abook in the viewable text (regular text on the page). I know accronym are 3 letter short for something but I think I got a little carried away with those nifty accronym tags :o) I've removed the tag. (6) The links you are listing appear to be clients. Am I correct? Did you design the book cover or the web site? Originaly I did both. The website isen't ready yet (need content from the author!!!)and the bookcover was changed a bit from the publishers side...diffrent colorandfont type Thank you for letting me help. No... thank you. Regards Kim Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com
RE: [WSG] Linking Background Images
Ok, my question is why the H2? What standard are you trying to promote with
that concept?
Using an H2 in that manner breaks accessibility.
Why wouldn't you do this?
a#bG{
background: url(image.gif) no-repeat;
height: 20px;
width:220px;
display: block;
line-height: 20px;}
a href=# id=bG title=destination of the link/a
I hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Lee Roberts
http://www.roserockdesign.com
http://www.applepiecart.com
-Original Message-
From: 7 sinz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 5:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Linking Background Images
in my previous example i explained it;
but the final mark up for that quick example should of been:
h2 id=bG class=savea href=# title=The clickable bG/a/h2
-peace
_
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RE: [WSG] Styling Text...
Do notcount onseeing STRONG removed. There is a purpose for it. B and I are still used in current versions. However, B and I have been removed from all future versions of XHTML. EM is not being removed or questioned. So, why do you think STRONG will be removed? Just because there is a note doesn't mean anything. Lee Roberts From: Mordechai Peller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 5:54 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling Text... Geoff Deering wrote: I have no disagreement with this at all. What I am saying is if you develop a large site, that is very well designed and engineered, then, when XHTML2 comes out there are found to be HUGE benefits for using it (this is just hypothetical), then what is the cost justification for then bringing the site up to date, when there were techniques and strategies for future proofing? What I am saying is it is better right now to drop tags like b and i because they are useless to screen readers and a waste of time for future compatibility, when other tags are more appropriate strong and em. That's my point.With XSLT, making the change shouldn't be difficult; that's one of the advantages of XHTML. But then I'd be careful with strong if I were you. They're thinking of giving strong the ax. If you mean "STRICT" as a proper noun, I disagree because it's part of the XHTML1.0 STRICT DTD. If, on the other hand, you mean "STRICT" as an adjective, then I totally agree. One problem with all caps is that there is a loss of semantic meaning; a common problem with presentational mark-up. What I am saying is the basic philosophy behind the STRICT DTD is separation of structure and presentation, and that that approach has a ROI in content management and deployment, especially when sites have to be redesigned and regenerated.Once a DTD is finalized, the philosophies which went into creating it cease being relevant. Philosophy is a matter of grays; a collection of rules for a computer to follow are black and white. Where philosophy can come into play is in how to follow those rules, including, as in this case, which to ignore. The tools has been provided (the DTD); what can and can not be done with it is not open to debate. How to use it is where the question lies. And I believe it's there that we can find agreement. You can do that even with XHTML1.0 Transitional. On large projects, Strict will always be more efficient and have a better ROI overa number of SDLCs. I wasn't saying what is best; just what's possible. That is a very verypoor quiz, and shows the author does not understand WCAG1 very well at all. Actually, it shows more that he does not know how to form the proper questions.The quality of the questions and quiz aside, why do you think the author doesn't understand WCAG!? My impression was the opposite.
RE: [WSG] a few question on accessibillity
Kim, (1) Your first question deals with the fact that you have the following codes in use.lia href="produkter.htm" title="Gruppe: produkt oversigt"Produkter/a/lia href="produkter/produkter.htm" title="Til produkter"Produkter/a Thosetwopiecesofcodepointtotwodifferentlocations,buthavethesametext"Produkter".Thefirstlinkisabrokenlink. (2) Check that the foreground and background colors contrast sufficiently with each other. You have this problem with your links at the bottom. They do not show up well against the red background. (3) If scripts create pop-up windows or change the active window, make sure that the user is aware this is happening. Your _javascript_ links to open new windows breaks accessibility. Using Firefox 0.8 and tabbing through the page I encounted a link that would not let me go on. a href="http://www.mouseriders.dk/jette/" onclick="popUpWin(this.href,'standard',800,600);return false;" onkeypress="popUpWin(this.href,'standard',800,600);return false;" title="Linket aring;bner Jette A Kaarsboslash;l kommende hjemmeside i et nyt vindue"foslash;rste udkast/a That will occur on all three links you use that _javascript_ on. (4) If this .gif image is animated, make sure it does not contain fast or distracting motion. All of your images are .gif files. Since the program can't tell what you are doing with your images it asks you to check to make sure you have no problems. Fixing these things will help. If you would like a further review let me know. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com From: Kim Kruse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 4:28 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] a few question on accessibillity Hi, I'm trying to make this site as accessible as I can with the limited knowledge I have on this issue. So I tried the validatores... but to be honest I'm quite unsure how to read and use the results. If I run this page through the validator (http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/html/en/index.jsp) I'm told I need to do some repairing. This is where I loose it... for instance I get an error on line 53: Do not use the same link phrase more than once when the links point to different URLs. (1 instance) . What's the error? I don't see it! This error: Do not create a blinking effect with animated gif images. (7 instances) I don't have ani gifs on the page! So if someone has the time to explain it to me I would really appreciate it... because to be honest I haven't got a clue if this page is accessible or not! The page in question is here http://mouseriders.dk/ Thank you Kim
RE: [WSG] Quick Accessibility Quiz
Hello Andy, Let's give this a go. Q1. To get an A rating you need to A. Provide an HTML equivalent for image based navigation and Avoid using colour for important information Reasons: 1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via alt, longdesc, or in element content). This includes: images, graphical representations of text (including symbols), image map regions, animations (e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art, frames, scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds (played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio tracks of video, and video. [Priority 1] 2.1 Ensure that all information conveyed with color is also available without color, for example from context or markup. [Priority 1] Q2. To get a AA rating you must A. Use relative rather than absolute units and Avoid deprecated tags like b and i Reasons: 3.4 Use relative rather than absolute units in markup language attribute values and style sheet property values. [Priority 2] 11.2 Avoid deprecated features of W3C technologies. [Priority 2] Q3. To get a AA rating you must also A. None of the above Reasons: 1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via alt, longdesc, or in element content). This includes: images, graphical representations of text (including symbols), image map regions, animations (e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art, frames, scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds (played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio tracks of video, and video. [Priority 1] 5.3 Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when linearized. Otherwise, if the table does not make sense, provide an alternative equivalent (which may be a linearized version). [Priority 2] 6.3 Ensure that pages are usable when scripts, applets, or other programmatic objects are turned off or not supported. If this is not possible, provide equivalent information on an alternative accessible page. [Priority 1] 6.4 For scripts and applets, ensure that event handlers are input device-independent. [Priority 2] 8.1 Make programmatic elements such as scripts and applets directly accessible or compatible with assistive technologies [Priority 1 if functionality is important and not presented elsewhere, otherwise Priority 2.] 9.2 Ensure that any element that has its own interface can be operated in a device-independent manner. [Priority 2] 9.3 For scripts, specify logical event handlers rather than device-dependent event handlers. [Priority 2] 12.3 Divide large blocks of information into more manageable groups where natural and appropriate. [Priority 2] For example, in HTML, use OPTGROUP to group OPTION elements inside a SELECT; group form controls with FIELDSET and LEGEND; use nested lists where appropriate; use headings to structure documents, etc. Refer also to guideline 3. 12.4 Associate labels explicitly with their controls. [Priority 2] For example, in HTML use LABEL and its for attribute. Q4. To get a AAA rating you must A. All of the above Reasons: 1.5 Until user agents render text equivalents for client-side image map links, provide redundant text links for each active region of a client-side image map. [Priority 3] 3.3 Use style sheets to control layout and presentation. [Priority 2] 13.4 Use navigation mechanisms in a consistent manner. [Priority 2] 14.3 Create a style of presentation that is consistent across pages. [Priority 3] Q5. Which site is more accessible? A. A site with a AA rating Reasons: Section 508 is a sub-set of WCAG. Section 508 has elements from Priority 1, 2 and 3, but ignores several things from Priority 1. Priority 1 is considered core requirements. Additionally, Section 508 does not require validated codes. The reason it doesn't is because they felt it was not important. However, there are assistive technologies that require knowing what the DTD is to handle the presentation of the page correctly. To put it short and sweet, Section 508 is not as accessible as Level A and surely not as accessible as Level AA. That means of your list the correct answer would be a web page that is Level AA compliant. However, I always strive for AAA compliance when doing accessibility work. Thanks, Lee Roberts http://www.applepiecart.com http://www.roserockdesign.com -Original Message- From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 2:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Quick Accessibility Quiz I've just posted up a quick accessibility quiz on my site. http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2004/07/ quick_accessibility_quiz_now_with_prizes/ The first 3 people with the correct answers and reasoning (as judged by me) will win a free GMail account (assuming I can remember my password). Enjoy Andy Budd
RE: [WSG] 508??
Jesse, I'll agree it makes them think about it for about ... 10 seconds. Then they go and start using those automated evaluators and mess it all up. I've used every evaluator there is and none come as close to meeting my experience as I would like. You can pass those automated test very easily and then totally ignore some very important elements. One accessibility presentation I went to had a company representative look like a fool when he was showing how JAWS worked with their pages. The designer passed all the automated tests, but failed to lineate the table correctly so JAWS was jumping all around the screen reading things out of order. Yep, Bobby said it passed - Bobby lied too. Yes, much of the Assistive Technology relies upon Microsoft. Didn't you realize that Microsoft doesn't allow anyone access to their core functions? Oh, that's last millennia's news. We should fire the federal judges that ruled in favor of Microsoft. They just gave too much power to Microsoft and I'm not talking their anti-competitive attitudes. I'm talking embedding their browser further into their operating systems. It's going to get to the point that their browser will enable any web site to take control of the computer again ... just like when we used to cause hard drive formats. Jesse, please tell me how Canada falls under Section 508. I realize Canada falls under our telecommunications acts, but I wasn't aware that Canada had to comply with Section 508. As I understood it, Canada's rules, although not totally accepted, required bi-lingual sites and even more accessibility than Section 508 requires. Please correct me if I'm wrong; I like to keep up with how other countries are handling the issues. Thanks, Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: J Rodgers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 5:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Have you looked at the other assistive technologies available? Yes I work closely with our Office for Persons with Disabilities, even presented at their Assistive Technology Fair last year. This year I will as well and sounds like it will be even bigger than last year. There are some very cool technologies out there. England and the other countries requiring accessible web sites state 508 did not meet their requirements for accessible web sites. So, how can we state that Section 508 is the end-all solution when other governments are saying it isn't enough? Not saying it was an end-all, just saying it was a decent place to start. At the very least it is forcing a lot of software developers and web designers to think accessible design. AT developers have the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines they have to follow. There is at least one person from the JAWS team on the working group. Since JAWS uses Internet Explorer and the Microsoft Accessibility Agent, I would hope that Microsoft starts supporting standards better than they do. And that they stop with their proprietary stuff. Netscape has begun to support OBJECT so we don't need to use EMBED/NOEMBED any longer unless you want to support earlier versions. Oh my, do we want to support Netscape 4.x? I don't and don't even come close to trying any longer. That is likely the biggest problem with Assistive technology, it relies on other over priced bloat ware that is unstable at the best of times and refuses to follow any standards properly. Why not move to Moz? Why build Assistive technologies for Linux where you have more control? Oh that is rhetorical. One thing I did notice with a lot of Assistive Technologies is that they rely heavily on Microsoft. I think that is a shame. Jesse * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] 508??
Section 508 wouldn't exist if it weren't for WCAG. If you can do Section 508 then step up to the plate and do the remainder. Take the extra step, you'll find it's a lot easier. It simply requires opening our minds to the possibilities. Regardless of what some say, Flash is not accessible and never will be. Anything that requires a person to use Microsoft technologies has no regard for the needs of the disabled. Joe definitely does do that at times, but he means well. If I'm in a crunch, I'll use WebQA to get my bearings. However, when it comes to in depth reviews on a page by page basis, I never use automated tools. I review the codes and if need be, I change the border of the tables to border=1 so I see how the text lays out. I've been doing accessibility since 1998. Thank you for explaining Canada's rules. I had thought they required AA, but didn't want to err. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.applepiecart.com http://www.roserockdesign.com -Original Message- From: J Rodgers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 7:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Actually Canada has to accessibility requirements under any law. The Canadian Government has the Common Look and Feel Guidelines and in there they require WAI AA for all Federal Government sites (government workers in Canada correct me please). http://www.cio-dpi.gc.ca/clf-nsi/index_e.asp Ontario (where I am) has the Ontarian with Disabilities Act (2001) but it lacks any real teeth and doesn't suggest anything specific - for uni's we have to come up with a 'plan' and the community is to keep us to it. For UW I have just been promoting the idea of standard code and accessible design and worked with many students with disabilities to determine what features they would like to see. Luckily our pages are mountains of text and static pages... Students use Google to get around and are relatively happy with our pages even though we have done little to make them accessible in the past. It is more a responsibility to the community that is motivating our move to accessible design. I think (not entirely sure) in Canada there is the wild card - Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I have heard a few discussions about how inaccessible websites violate people's rights in Canada, but to my knowledge no court cases yet. It would only take one court case though, and the tide would shift in Canada. Accessible design consultants are just waiting for that I imagine ;) So how does Section 508 effect us? It doesn't. But it is of particular interest since I have seen a couple of the people that worked on it present at conferences. I am not a huge fan of the WCAG, nor am I a fan of those who preach strict adherence without first providing a guide for those who don't understand. The other problem of validators is annoying as well. I was sitting in Tim Hortons in Toronto with Joe Clark listening to him go on how validators can't tell you want you have done right, only what you have done wrong, but even then they are inaccurate - when I thought, this is madness (and no it wasn't just because Joe was ranting) and I haven't seen anything in the past year or so to make me think otherwise. Jesse On 6/30/04 8:47 AM, Lee Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesse, please tell me how Canada falls under Section 508. I realize Canada falls under our telecommunications acts, but I wasn't aware that Canada had to comply with Section 508. As I understood it, Canada's rules, although not totally accepted, required bi-lingual sites and even more accessibility than Section 508 requires. Please correct me if I'm wrong; I like to keep up with how other countries are handling the issues. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] 508??
In an effort to not drown the list-serv with constant replies, let me use this single reply. Captioning of SMIL, Magpie or the like will always be a human reviewer test. There's no way an automated evaluator can test image presentation. Search engines can't do it and certainly a less costly program won't be able to. At least not at this point. Regrettably, the only thing automated evaluators can do is tell you where you have fouled up (sometimes) and where you need to check (sometimes). Like Joe Clark says, they can't tell you when you've done something right. The only thing that can tell you when you've done something correctly is through experience and testing. You'll be surprised at how easy it becomes once you learn the little tricks of the trade. Jesse, you might be interested in The Globe and Mail on June 16, 2004. I think that's Canada's national newspaper. There's an article about accessible web sites, namely about YouSearched.com. I hope this was of some help. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: ckimedia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 9:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Hi, Thanks I wasn't aware my question had ominous tones. Nonetheless, humble voice I appreciate your suggestion. /humble voice On Wednesday, June 30, 2004, at 08:04 AM, Patrick Lauke wrote: ominous voiceComprehensive Accessibility Text/ominous voice, as the field is constantly evolving and changing. What you can get, though, is books covering the majority of the basis, and follow that up with good practice examples. They're out there, you just need to look in the right places (and frequent lists like the above featured WAI-IG, or forums such as www.accessifyforum.com for instance). * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] 508??
Would someone please explain why the WSG thinks Section 508 is what should be used? Thanks, Lee Roberts * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] 508??
Well, seems we got the thread going at least. Section 508 is a lame attempt to meet accessibility needs. If you look at what's going on around the world - England, Italy, European Union, Australia and other countries - you'll see it's lame. Section 508 picked and chose which elements they thought was correct without even attempting to understand the problems faced by assistive technologies. Section 508 has elements from Priority 2 and Priority 3 while skipping some elements from Priority 1. Now, that's interesting - they skip required elements in lieu of lower priority elements. I've reviewed a few people's web sites and found they were claiming conformance to Section 508. So, that's the reason for my question. t94xr states, Its a first and simple step. How can Section 508 be a first and simple step? While WCAG2 is still in the works, I participate in the working group, it still has some very strong concepts that will help you with accessibility. You'll notice that some of the Priority 2 and Priority 3 elements have been made more important. That's because in 1998 and 1999 there were many things we didn't understand about assistive technology and many things assistive technology couldn't handle. Since WCAG1 we now have User Agent Accessibility Guidelines (UAAG) and Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines (ATAG) and even accessibility guidelines for developing XML documents. A lot of advancements have been made. I would highly suggest you skip bragging about Section 508 or even attempting to conform with it. Rather develop your conformance to higher standards. Even on the Oklahoma Electronic and Information Technology Accessibility Task Force, which I'm a member, we took Section 508 as our base rules and advanced beyond it. Many States have done the same including Missouri and Illinois. If you're clients are going to do anything internationally, don't even think about returning with Section 508 conformance. All it takes is one large company from the U.S. to be sued in a foreign country and the playing field will be altered so quickly it will make your head spin. I hope this wasn't too long winded. I have a fond appreciation for accessibility and for the standards. I'm glad this organization does as well. Best Regards, Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: Patrick Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 9:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] 508?? Tim knows that. What Tim was asking was: what on earth is the thread starter asking when he says Would someone please explain why the WSG thinks Section 508 is what should be used? I'd be interested in what on earth he's talking about as well, coincidentally... Patrick -Original Message- From: t94xr.net.nz webmaster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 29/06/2004 15:23 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Sure, if you explain what on earth you're talking about. -- tim 508 is this, http://www.contentquality.com/mynewtester/cynthia.exe?rptmode=-1runcr=1url 1=http://www.t94xr.net.nz/ Conformance to web accessability standards produced by the W3C. Basically those ponts there tell you wats required for 508 compliance. Its a first and simple step. t94xr http://www.t94xr.net.nz/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * Nnvy jq?z * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] 508??
Longdesc points to another file with the longer description. It is not to be used as a place for a long sentence. Therefore this is incorrect: img src=http://www.t94xr.net.nz/private/slingshot.jpg; alt= longdesc=An image that shows that i have downloaded 2.4GB on 56k dialup in a month. / http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#long-descriptions When a short text equivalent does not suffice to adequately convey the function or role of an image, provide additional information in a file designated by the longdesc attribute: Example. IMG src=97sales.gif alt=Sales for 1997 longdesc=sales97.html In sales97.html: A chart showing how sales in 1997 progressed. The chart is a bar-chart showing percentage increases in sales by month. Sales in January were up 10% from December 1996, sales in February dropped 3%, .. You're better off putting that long sentence in your ALT attribute. So, while you're compliant with Section 508 you're images are not accessible. As now represented, Section 508 does not meet the requirements I would think members of the WSG would want to support. There are other instances. Now, I'm curious ... what is this? a href=terms.phptamp;c/a Looking at the code I can tell it's terms and conditions but if I were blind I'd have no idea what tc represents. Just something else those automated systems don't check - including Cynthia Says. And visually I would have questions about some of these elements: tc | xhtml css 508 cc aaa. Looking at your titles I can see you claim conformance to WCAG1 AAA. Unfortunately, Bobby doesn't appear to think so. Let me invite you to review the ISO HTML Standards and have fun with those. http://www.cs.tcd.ie/15445/15445.HTML Thank you for the opportunity to review your site. I really enjoyed it. Before anyone points fingers, I will also be redesigning my site again. I need to get it back to being accessible like I preach and teach. Sincerely, Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: t94xr.net.nz webmaster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 8:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Sure, if you explain what on earth you're talking about. -- tim 508 is this, http://www.contentquality.com/mynewtester/cynthia.exe?rptmode=-1runcr=1url 1=http://www.t94xr.net.nz/ Conformance to web accessability standards produced by the W3C. Basically those ponts there tell you wats required for 508 compliance. Its a first and simple step. t94xr http://www.t94xr.net.nz/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] 508??
I will agree that JAWS is an over-priced piece of software. IBM HomePage Reader is much more reasonable. But, then again Lynx with voice would be good as well. Have you looked at the other assistive technologies available? England and the other countries requiring accessible web sites state 508 did not meet their requirements for accessible web sites. So, how can we state that Section 508 is the end-all solution when other governments are saying it isn't enough? AT developers have the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines they have to follow. There is at least one person from the JAWS team on the working group. Since JAWS uses Internet Explorer and the Microsoft Accessibility Agent, I would hope that Microsoft starts supporting standards better than they do. And that they stop with their proprietary stuff. Netscape has begun to support OBJECT so we don't need to use EMBED/NOEMBED any longer unless you want to support earlier versions. Oh my, do we want to support Netscape 4.x? I don't and don't even come close to trying any longer. Thanks for the feedback. Sincerely, Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: J Rodgers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 3:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Perhaps one of the biggest problems with accessibility is the lack of affordable assistive technologies (AT)? I think W3 complaint code mixed with some decent features should be all that is required on the developers end. The government would be better off spending more time and resources on supporting the development of text readers (lynx with a freaky voice) that do not cost $2500 a seat. You will note some the latest version of Jaws can handle junk code pretty well - no excuse for junk code mind you - but there has to be some middle ground. The problem with the WCAG is it's so academic, at least section 508 made an attempt to quantify exactly what makes a site accessible and encourages AT creators along with Dreamweaver-esque CMS developers to conform to something they can understand. Who is encouraging the AT developers to support web standards? Bah.. Jaws is really starting to freak me out. Jesse On 6/29/04 12:49 PM, Lee Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Section 508 picked and chose which elements they thought was correct without even attempting to understand the problems faced by assistive technologies. Section 508 has elements from Priority 2 and Priority 3 while skipping some elements from Priority 1. Now, that's interesting - they skip required elements in lieu of lower priority elements. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] 508??
The standards are available at these locations. Missouri: http://www.dolir.state.mo.us/matp/ITAccessibilityStatute.htm Illinois: http://www.illinois.gov/iwas/standards/iwasStandards.cfm I hope this helps. Sincerely, Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: ckimedia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 12:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 508?? Hi, Are these expanded rules mentioned available to the public? C On Tuesday, June 29, 2004, at 09:49 AM, Lee Roberts wrote: Even on the Oklahoma Electronic and Information Technology Accessibility Task Force, which I'm a member, we took Section 508 as our base rules and advanced beyond it. Many States have done the same including Missouri and Illinois. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Tim Berners-Lee - Keeping Web Universal
I'm not sure if this what you're looking for, but it's worth a shot. "The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect." Tim Berners-Lee, W3C Director and Inventor of the World Wide Web I hope this helps. Lee Roberts http://www.applepiecart.com http://www.roserockdesign.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 9:48 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] Tim Berners-Lee - Keeping Web Universal In a message dated 6/22/2004 4:08:12 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Anyway, sorry for steering this thread off course ;)I hope this is ok to ask. This subject is of great interest to me and I can't find the original message it: "Tim Berners-Lee - Keeping Web Universal". I haven't check this mailbox in a week so I've got hundreds of messages and may have accidentally deleted the original post. Would someone fill me in on the original post? Thanks so much.
