Re: [WSG] The Problem of adjacent links
Darren I'd be highly surprised if a screen reader manages to read CSS. Most struggle with HTML -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others : http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton 2008/5/9 Darren Lovelock [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The content:after pseudo class can be used to seperate the links with a vertical bar. It wont work in Internet Explorer but I believe it will still work with screen readers (although at this point in time I cannot find anything that confirms this). That said, it's far more logical to just seperate the links using a list, as Stuart has already stated. Regards, Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Darren West *Sent:* 09 May 2008 12:53 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] The Problem of adjacent links The reason for putting the character there in the first place is explicitly to help screen-reader users distinguish between links. It is my understanding that the fact that they are seperate links is what distinguishes between links ... Screen-reader users have said that the vertical bar is THEIR preferred character (even though this means repeating vertical bar) since it is not used for anything else and can't be confused. Prefered to a list? 2008/5/9 Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The reason for putting the character there in the first place is explicitly to help screen-reader users distinguish between links. Screen-reader users have said that the vertical bar is THEIR preferred character (even though this means repeating vertical bar) since it is not used for anything else and can't be confused. Border is, of course, purely presentational and of no use whatsoever to screen-readers and, therefore, does not fulfill accessibility requirements. On Fri, May 9, 2008 7:31 am, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: The most common separator used in such circumstances ... is the vertical bar...whilst it is quite wordy That's the reason why I've started *not* to use it anymore. I'm using borders instead and add the class last to the last list element to apply no borders at all. Whilst a border is slightly higher than a vertical bar it avoids screenreaders to go home vertical bar latest posts vertical bar contact us vertical bar sitemap vertical bar Cheers, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] selectutorial
Kevin First stripping out margins padding from nearly everything is quite common practice. Look up reset style sheets from YUI or Eric Meyers example (also included with blue print framework). It would be good for anybody new to using CSS to immediately get to grips with an initial CSS reset to allow for cross bowser support Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 17/04/2008, kevin mcmonagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi, My friend wants to learn about css so i told him to do the selectutorial on the maxdesign site. It says to reset the margins in the body then use ems for padding. I was reading somewhere that cancelling out the margins in the body tells the browsers to go through all the tags and cancel out the margins and that it actually adds to download time. I dont know if thats realistic or not but ive been using margins for spacing between divs for a long time. Whats the final word on resetting and using margins to avoid cross browsers problems? best kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of x html
Michael I would recommend that you use target=_new and then use XHTML transitional DTD -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 27/03/2008, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just read how a target=_blank is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of x html
Andrew of course you are right there, however if the brief says so -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 27/03/2008, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Michael Horowitz wrote: I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. No, better practice is to avoid foisting new windows on users altogether. (IMHO - but I don't think I'm alone...) Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Hanging indents
Elizabeth I believe the solution Mike came up with to be a sound one. However maybe you should step back and think why this should be a web page at all. You are facing the great problem of trying to make the screen look like print. Something which drives most of us up the wall at some point. The document could be made available for download as a PDF and also RTF (for accessibility purposes). It is unlikely that your client want to have the content spidered for search engine purposes. It also makes the site more maintainable. A change to the document doesn't need to have skilled HTML work carried out on the site. remember you've also got the print style sheets to contend with. This approach also means that the document will always appear the way they intend, irrespective of screen width etc. just my two penny worth.. -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 21/03/2008, Elizabeth Spiegel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all I'm developing a site for a non-profit organisation and one page is their constitution. I'm trying to get the clauses to appear with a hanging indent as they currently do in the word version: http://www.dra.org.au/files/QTI5QDJCKU/DRA-Constitution-Amended-10Feb07%20(6 7%20KB).doc. I thought I'd achieved it using a float - see www.spiegelweb.com.au/test/dra/constitution_float.html - then looked at it in IE 6 and started tearing my hair out. I then tried a different approach using white-space: pre; www.spiegelweb.com.au/test/dra/constitution.html. I don't like this as it relies on multiple spaces and I suspect that it will stop lining up as soon as fonts other than the default are used. Suggestions anyone? (Note that I can't change the numbering scheme.) Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] setting fontsize in body
Alastair No doubt it was full page zoom. However I would have thought it sufficiently an important feature to dedicated a couple of buttons in the chrome bar to it, maybe a simple + and - (my actual sugestion to them). I realise that screen real estate is precious, however I think we all agree this to be a very important feature. To most users it is a moot point whether or mot these buttons perfrom text resizing or indeed page zoom. They would a) make the browser screen content more readable b) make it more apparent to the user that this feature is available. The browser manufacturers need to realise that most users will only develop to a certain degree, to be tech savvy. We as an industry must make things easier. Browsing the web should be no more diffcult than switching TV channels, ahem looks down at incredibly complex remote control :0) -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 08/08/07, Alastair Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob Kirton wrote: I was informed that they had a far better idea in the pipeline. I'm not holding my breath... As others suggested, full page zoom is likely to be it, but I hope they include Opera's fit-to-width option, or something to the same effect. Otherwise it won't be any better than IE7's: http://alastairc.ac/2006/11/browser-zoom-comparison/ Cheers, -Alastair *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] setting fontsize in body
Alastair I contacted the Firefox development team prior to release 2 and suggested exactly what you have suggested, i.e. give the users an obvious prompt to re-size text i.e. in the default browser menu. It saves on both the users having to discover and remeber specialist key strokes and also save the web developer having to supply for each page. I was informed that they had a far better idea in the pipeline. I'm not holding my breath... I can only agree with previous comments about average web users and their lack of knowledge abou text resizing, having at one time run a number of classes for such people. Maybe one day the browser vendors will catch on. -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton Personally, I wouldn't complain about that, but I would suggest that increase/decrease text buttons are in the default browser chrome. Kind regards, -Alastair 1] http://alastairc.ac/2007/05/user-agent-improvements/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
Michael I understand your comments, however I think it would be very difficult for governments other high volume publishers to remove the need for PDFs. Where an audience must be reached by a variety of channels by both web and printed media, it would be sensless to have to produce multiple sets of documents. i.e. brochures prepared for both printers and then replicated in HTML. Post print production saving as PDF ensures that exactly the same document as sent to print can easily be published for the web, maintaing the original integrity of the document and also saving on a second production process. -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 20/07/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Saying that PDF's are needed by Government Websites is a very circular argument for allowing them - why are they needed? In my experience it is only ever because of laziness or poorly designed workflows, and as you point out, we all hate them, especially when they cannot be opened/read. Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jermayn Parker ... for most Government websites they need these pdfs that we all hate and as I said in an earlier email html versions is not always an option. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] To target or not
I would argue the case that it may be sensible to open a new window for PDF's. There was sufficient evidence for a UK government department I have worked extensively with, to include this as a standard. The rationale behind this is simply that once presented with a PDF the user has the experience of being in a different application, and may be inclined to beleive that the web site had been left behind / shut down. This is not a case of a floating pop up, but of course is a new tab opened in the browser, indicating that the page launching the app is still present and available for use In such circumstances It is best to use transitional doc type than to get too anally retentive about having to have a strict doc type. The user doesn't care a hoot about doctype, though they are very interested in the experience and usability of a site -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 13/07/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *James Jeffery *Sent:* Friday, July 13, 2007 8:32 AM *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] To target or not Id say dont use pop-ups, nobody likes them w! :P I agree - in this day and age it makes far more sense to show and hide a div (or whatever) on your page than to throw a whole new page unless you have reams of info to display. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page Structure
Web Man: It is one of lifes great mysteries (i.e. that is secret to Google), at what point the value of H1 is diminished through (over) use. You are doing the right thing by placing emphasis on the rugby world cup aspect. The only time I expect to maybe see a clients name in an H1, is if is somebody who is taking on the traditionally expensive job of building a brand and expecting most searches on that. Of course there is Viral marketing and your not doing too bad a job on that front at the moment :0) -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 27/06/07, Web Man Walking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Some great stuff, thanks to all. Are Ed's clients' customers more likely to search on 'Glory Days' or 'Rugby World Cup 2007 Packages'? Definitely the latter. They want clients who want to go to the Rugby World Cup 2007. I presume they are not too bothered who their supplier is ;-) Of course keeping the branding on each page is also important. I know multiple h1's are frowned upon but what about something like: h1 id=companyGlory Days/h1 h2 id=taglinetickets, accommodation travel packages for major events throughout the uk, europe and worldwide/h2 div id=content h1Rugby World Cup 2007 Packages/h1 /div Would I penalised for something like this? E. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] JavaScript gurus - exercise in vanity
Lars Your problem is going to be to get what are deemed good academic sources. As you will already know academic publications and conference papers will carry greater weight than books, especially those not peer reviewed and published as an academic work. It's who your tutor / prof is going to rate as a guru; sad as that may seem. The names mentioned are good in their field and have written books, however you may have been going more down the correct path with your original list. Find good conference papers if you can -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 19/06/07, Frank Palinkas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to add Gez Lemon to the list please. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barney Carroll Sent: Tuesday, 19 June, 2007 12:48 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] JavaScript gurus - exercise in vanity Cameron Singe wrote: I read a book by Christian Heilmann on beginning javascript, I would rate him as a guru Definitely. FYI Lars, http://domscripting.com/ is Christian's hub site. Jeremy Keith should also be above most of these people as popular and populist (just under PPK, possibly) - http://adactio.com/articles/. And seeing as we might as well get back on topic, PPK and Christian Heilmann are brilliant standards advocates and accessibility gurus as well. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opening a New Window for Print View (dif from a print style sheet)
Susan Just set your doctype to transitional then all will be fine with validation using target. For your own peace of mind, you know your pages are otherwise strict, why crucifty yourself over a tiny problem? Life is too short. Your pages are no less clean or valid because of a transitional doc type. -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 15/06/07, Susan Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Generally I use print stylesheets to handle all my print views, but I'm working on an application that after they enter form data we're going to offer them a print view that shows the data in a format that is the legalstyle (I deal with mandates). To do this I'm going to offer a link styled as a button that states Print View Window so it's clear that I'm opening a new window. My pages are XHTML strict, tableless CSS and meet all the accessibility rules, actually I went ahead and adjusted them to WCAG Samurai Errata, and I'm using no hacks or js at this time (it's a java ap). I'm finally getting to my question on the best way to open a new windowfor this now that the target tag isn't an option. what are the suggested ways to do this now and keep my pages clean? I've read Berea St who is adamant on using js if you have to have a window, though stating it should be avoided, and others who are just as opposed and recommended only pure css pop-ups - which I don't want since i want full browser menus for the user. Thanks in advance - -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Back to the Future
Chris If this is Internet and not in intranet, I suggest that you design for the real customers; that is people who visit the site and not those who own it. If this user group are still for some strange reason, bound by running windows 3.1 etc.. do it the old way, take the money and don't put it on your CV I wish you all the very best on this project... -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 12/06/07, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I've been asked to write a website that MUST work in Netscape 4.03 and IE 3 for Windows 3.1. When you've stopped laughing I'm afraid I have to say I'm serious, and there's no chance at all that the people connecting to the site will upgrade. So, any tips to do this without reverting all the way back to 1996 tables and spacer gifs? Or am I doomed to non-standards hell? Cheers, and wish me luck. Chris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Screen resolution issue
Lyn If it's a fluid design, surely height and width are inextricably linked. As the width narrows, the height increases. From your description, maybe your client seems to be lacking in web content, which cannot be cured by means of design alone. If they're obsessed with having so few words, maybe make the font larger. -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 01/06/07, Lyn Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm guessing you are using a liquid layout yeah?? Its not so much the width that worries me- its the height. The page currently stops halfway down. She apparently has no problems with my personal site at her resolution so perhaps I will switch her layout to the same as mine to see if that improves the look. If you want a quick fix you could also consider setting a fixed width for your site, its less elastic but it would be quick. I have already gone down that route and it is even worse - so much border I think I'll try a different layout - I'll change my resolution to 1280x1024 and check out some samples. Thanks for reply. Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Screen resolution issue
Lyn Unless this is an Intranet application, the screen resolution that your client uses is totally immaterial. It is the screen res, used by the users of the site you need to worry about. I recognise that fluid designs aren't always the answer, IE not obeying max-width etc... means that line lenghts of text etc can look strange when viewed full screen at high resolution. I would factor into any thoughts that viewing full screen at 1280 x 1024 (or higher) using IE is a minority interest :0) You don't mention whether or not it is single/multi column and how the navigation is sited. Maybe providing an URL will help?. In certain circumstances There are still merits in using a single column fixed with (tad below 800px) design... -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 01/06/07, Lyn Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I design sites in 1024-768 and make sure they look good at 800x600x. Have just done a design for a client who is using a screen resolution of 1280x1024 and the site looks awful - it stops halfway down the page and everything looks so spread out. I must say I have never had this problem before and not sure how to resolve it. The client is not happy so I have to fix this quickly. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks. Lyn Lyn Patterson www.westernwebdesign.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Screen resolution issue
Lyn Having seen it, doesn't look too (hmm..) bad at 1280 x 1024 full screen. What else could expected with so little front page content I would be tempted to maybe centre the content by menas of giving the whole lot 15% margin left and right, upping the size of the text, and adding more words. How about some google juice in terms of headings, and a tad more content. Think Editorial ang SEO as well as design -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 01/06/07, Lyn Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unless this is an Intranet application, the screen resolution that your client uses is totally immaterial. Try telling my client that! I've tried! You don't mention whether or not it is single/multi column and how the navigation is sited. Maybe providing an URL will help?. In certain circumstances There are still merits in using a single column fixed with (tad below 800px) design... http://www.westernwebdesign.com.au/truth/index2.html I'm thinking of moving the nav to the side and she wants the picture of the book enlarged ! Thanks for reply Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] address semantics
I am a great believer in the correct application of semantics myself. I would recommend either address tag set or maybe a micro format. Although the number of text analytical tools which recognise micro formats may be small, I am uncertain whether or not address is recognised by anything, other than user agents. -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] semantic HTML for intro text
Stay away from Strong. Strong is presentational, same as B, and I. Presentation should be in HTML and content in HTML. use span class=important for text that needs to be emphasised. I would argue to the contrary. Strong has much more meaning than a span class. The word /tag itself implies strength of content rather than a default appearance in a bowser, cf with the address tag which indicates an address, even though browser default appearance is italicised. strong and span class=important could both be made to look the same by means of the CSS presentational layer; however only one for them could ever infer meaning to a bot, if it had been programmed to look for specific tags and attempt to infer meaning. That is the strong tag. The class important means nothing other than a nine letter identifier of a class. Web semantics are a case of providing an aid to text retrieval tools to establish original authors meaning rather than provide meaning to a web developer who may need to maintain a class library. -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 26/05/07, Jamie Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TYPO ALERT! Presentation should be in CSS and Content in HTML. God knows what made me type HTML twice. On 5/26/07, Jamie Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stay away from Strong. Strong is presentational, same as B, and I. Presentation should be in HTML and content in HTML. use span class=important for text that needs to be emphasised. On 5/26/07, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, thanks for your help, I just thought there may be some kind of HTML tag that adds seperate semantic value to the introductory paragraph, to differentiate it from the strong text in the body, like the big tag for example. I will probably use the strong tag then. Cheers Paul On 25/05/07, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, If the choice of the colour orange is to add emphasis to this text, the answer to this part is really a no brainer - code it with emphasis (the actual colour/styling is down to the CSS). I would use strong markup for this. On Fri, May 25, 2007 7:56 pm, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: On 25 May 2007, at 18:03:06, Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, Just marking up a page, the layout seems to require various tags, as far as I can gather, I need seperate tags for: - The intro heading (a H2) - The orange intro text (not sure what tag to add here) - a smaller, bold heading, same size as body text (probably a h3) - a quote (probably a blockquote tag) My question is, what would be the best semantic tags to use here, that will be picked up by assistive technology and validate for XHTML 1.0 Transitional. In particular, I want to know about the Orange intro text and the quote. Any suggestions would be great, I have posted a JPEG here: http://www.method.com.au/storage/sampleText.gif Assuming the page on which this will appear already has an h1: h2.../h2 p class=introduction.../p h3...h3 p.../p blockquotep.../p/blockquote p.../p and then apply things like the different font sizes weights, colours and spacing with CSS. If there will only ever be one introductory paragraph per page, then you could use p id=introduction instead. HTH, Nick, -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Stuart Foulstone. http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk BigEasy Web Design 69 Flockton Court Rockingham Street Sheffield S1 4EB Tel. 07751 413451 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] css type loop
More precisely, the use of id and class can only add semantic value to developers or to those who have to maintain the site. They have no bearing on real world semantics in terms of benefit derived by end users and page retrieval via search engines. To that end they are semantically neutral -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 21/05/07, Mordechai Peller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Novitski wrote: Mordechai, please elaborate on this point: how does HTML lose semantic value when ids classes are added? I think of ids classes as being semantically neutral or inert. When used properly, ids and classes add semantic value. (That ids and classes can add value is, in part, the basis for microformats.) For example, id=nav-main, id=footer, class=price all add value. However, there's values in scarcity. When ids and classes are scarce there is an implied value which is imparted because this element has one and that element doesn't. With class=bullet1, class=bullet2, class=bullet3, etc., their value is somewhat diluted. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] css type loop
Anders Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware of this particular plugin; and as you suggest, better again if this or something similar is supported as standard in a wide range of user agents. Agent support of extended HTML is certainly a far better means of adoption, than the approach of having to convert every piece of HTML data on the web into RDF and then using a specialist browser to assimilate and make sense of it :0) Allowing users to benefit from embeded microformats is an excellent idea. Unfortunately on a rather more mundane level - I still come across clients who still have dificulties with the correct use of header and paragraph tags (rgh!!). We have a long way to go -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 21/05/07, Anders Nawroth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob Kirton skrev: More precisely, the use of id and class can only add semantic value to developers or to those who have to maintain the site. They have no bearing on real world semantics in terms of benefit derived by end users and page retrieval via search engines. Take a look at this: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4106 It's the Operator Fx extension, which lets end users make use of microformats. I think this or something similar will be a part of Fx 3. And IE 8, actually. /AndersN *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
Craig. Only the first occurrence on each page is advisable -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 10/05/07, Craig Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just how extensive should our use of the acronym tag be? For example, if I have a page devoted to explaining what a Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is, should I tag MSA with the acronym tag every single time it's mentioned? -- CRAIG BAILEY [EMAIL PROTECTED] 67 Union St. #2D, Winooski, Vt. 05404.1948 USA www.floydianslip.com | 802.655.1197 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] style sheets - best practices
Bob I believe what you may have seen is the practice of having link type=text/css rel=stylesheet href= media=screen in the page body for xhtml validation purposes having a raft of @import statements in the linked CSS file The principle being to modularise your CSS, having multiple separate CSS files I don't think the real concern is for long since dead browsers such as IE4 and NN4 -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk On 15/03/07, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Makes sense and I already knew that. The reason behind my post has to do with me noticing a trend towards importing style sheets and I was curious if this was the current best practice and if so, why. Bob Using the @import stylesheet rule is great if you only want your stylesheet rules to be picked up by most modern browsers. Netscape 4 and below and IE 4 and below do not support the @import rule. This allows you to target stylesheets to specific browser versions. Does that make sense? On 3/15/07, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the current best practice for style sheets - imported or linked - and why? Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Barney
I don't see this as being a definition list. 39 does not define Chapter 1,
it is an indicator of where to find chapter 1. It is arguably a table, as in
table of contents. Of course it is all a bit of an odd case considering the
web. Web pages aren't paper, and trying to replicate the behaviour of books
via a screen can in *many* circumstances seem a little perverse
--
Regards
- Rob
Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk
On 07/03/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tables always get people dancing around the room, mostly drunk.
The presentation seems unusual as does the term 'table' (possibly
because there's only two values per row). But the most common instance
of tables in print is the table of contents, which is exactly like this.
Try arguing that isn't a table.
Introduction..1
Chapter 139
Chapter 256
As for the 'it could just as well be a definition list' thing, I'm in
agreement but it doesn't cause me headaches anymore. From a practical
level, dd{display:table} doesn't work very well, whereas
td{display:block} is bulletproof. So in any case where something could
be construed as a table, I'd say go with those tags and use CSS if you
decide the info isn't being displayed clearly.
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] tabular data
Bob Using tabular form should be the first choice; where you have what is naturally a table. What you have is clearly a table. I would suggest that if reworking this and really taking the needs of users into account; maybe breaking the data into a series of smaller tables (possibly based around nation) would be a good idea. It would then be more usable, making it easier to scan irrespective of whatever type of agent / browser they may be using. Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk On 06/03/07, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm reworking a site to get it up to web standards. Tables should be used only to contain tabular data Would current accepted practices be: If it can be done without a table that should be first choice. or Is there a definition of what is considered tabular data (or is it in the eyes of the beholder)? Would this be acceptable for using a table: http://www.fifeweb.org/wp/org/org_jdg_sdt_lst.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
