Re: [WSG] Absolute Positioning-A Naive Question (Maybe)
Felix Miata wrote: The author here is the lead layout developer in the Mozilla project: http://dbaron.org/log/2005-12#e20051228a Well, I don't read anything in the author's cited reference for CSS floats - http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#floats - to imply that floats were intended solely for floating small bits of content in a paragraph. The source quoted specifically refers to block-level boxes as well as line boxes. Floating DIVs that create new positioning contexts is perfectly within the intent of CSS as I read it. The reliance on extremely obscure details the author refers to is justified by nothing more than a post by himself over what happens to the flow around floats when floats have negative margin-box dimensions. I am sure this _is_ tricky, and the intended behaviour in CSS may well be unclear. But this would apply to someone applying negative margin to floats in a small local setting just as much as in the major layout containers that we also float today. I don't think the Baron reference is sufficient evidence for the assertion that using floats for layout is an abuse of them. On the contrary, I have seen several references in the last few years that stated floats *were* the preferred layout method by the W3C CSS working group. Who's right? Without detailed research into the mailing list archives of the working group, there's not much point arguing about things like this. The point is, floats observe the letter of web standards as we have them today, and provide a robust method of achieving layouts that don't work as well or are harder to achieve using other positioning methods. Cheers Ian -- _ zStudio - Web development and accessibility http://zStudio.co.uk Snippetz.net - Online code library File, manage and re-use your code snippets links http://snippetz.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Absolute Positioning-A Naive Question (Maybe)
... I don't think the Baron reference is sufficient evidence for the assertion that using floats for layout is an abuse of them. On the contrary, I have seen several references in the last few years that stated floats *were* the preferred layout method by the W3C CSS working group. ... I am with Richard Czeiger on this one. CSS is for presentation, is there right method? Flotas are just more robust, IMHO, that's it. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Absolute Positioning-A Naive Question (Maybe)
On 06/03/13 21:35 Paula Petrik apparently typed: When I read the W3C specs (not the most riveting exercise on the planet), it seems that the developers emphasize absolute positioning. For example, they describe using floats to float small bits of text or images. It seems, however, that floats have become the order of the day. Rather than small bits, whole parts of designs are floated about. Was this the W3C's intent? Or, have floats become the modern equivalent of tables? Is there some reason why absolute positioning has fallen by the wayside? CSS-Discuss's wiki describes absolute positioning as capable of simple designs; yet, a significant proportion of csszengarden designs are absolutely positioned, and I wouldn't term them simple. Just wondering what the current wisdom is on this issue. The author here is the lead layout developer in the Mozilla project: http://dbaron.org/log/2005-12#e20051228a -- Blessed are they whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the Lord. Psalm 119:11 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/auth ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Absolute Positioning-A Naive Question (Maybe)
The main reason I dont use absolute positioning for all my layout is that most of the sites I build require footers at the base of the page content. With every page of differing content length the only way to achieve this is to float and then clear for the footer. Thats just me. There are wiser brains on this list tho :) On 14/03/06, Paula Petrik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I read the W3C specs (not the most riveting exercise on the planet), it seems that the developers emphasize absolute positioning. For example, they describe using floats to float small bits of text or images. It seems, however, that floats have become the order of the day. Rather than small bits, whole parts of designs are floated about. Was this the W3C's intent? Or, have floats become the modern equivalent of tables? Is there some reason why absolute positioning has fallen by the wayside? CSS-Discuss's wiki describes absolute positioning as capable of simple designs; yet, a significant proportion of csszengarden designs are absolutely positioned, and I wouldn't term them simple. Just wondering what the current wisdom is on this issue. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Absolute Positioning-A Naive Question (Maybe)
Paula Petrik wrote: When I read the W3C specs (not the most riveting exercise on the planet), it seems that the developers emphasize absolute positioning. For example, they describe using floats to float small bits of text or images. It seems, however, that floats have become the order of the day. Rather than small bits, whole parts of designs are floated about. Was this the W3C's intent? Or, have floats become the modern equivalent of tables? http://dbaron.org/log/2005-12#e20051228a Is there some reason why absolute positioning has fallen by the wayside? There are significant limitations with the use of absolute positioning such as the inability to create equal height columns and allow any column to have the longest content, which is one of the most common abuses of floats. There are better approaches to layout being developed by the W3C, but they're still a very long way off from implementation. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Absolute Positioning-A Naive Question (Maybe)
On Mar 14, 2006, at 11:35 AM, Paula Petrik wrote:
When I read the W3C specs (not the most riveting exercise on the
planet), it seems that the developers emphasize absolute
positioning. For example, they describe using floats to float small
bits of text or images. It seems, however, that floats have become
the order of the day. Rather than small bits, whole parts of
designs are floated about. Was this the W3C's intent? Or, have
floats become the modern equivalent of tables? Is there some reason
why absolute positioning has fallen by the wayside? CSS-Discuss's
wiki describes absolute positioning as capable of simple designs;
yet, a significant proportion of csszengarden designs are
absolutely positioned, and I wouldn't term them simple. Just
wondering what the current wisdom is on this issue.
You read that correctly, and Felix already pointed you to that
article by David Baron.
The main reason that 'floats' are so popular in current css driven
design: they are currently, and very unfortunately, the best tool
available for the job of creating multicolumn designs.
Absolute positioning has one problematic side effect: as the height
of the column is usually unknown (depending on the contents), it is
more difficult to position an element under that absolute positioned
element. Not impossible, mind you, with a little help of javascript.
An alternative would be the use of {display:table} and {display:table-
cell}. But that is not supported by IE, which puts serious limits on
the technique.
Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://emps.l-c-n.com
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Re: [WSG] Absolute Positioning-A Naive Question (Maybe)
Here's a potentially naive response ... does it matter? As long as the (x)html is semantically marked up, does the rationale behind your css code make a difference (taking into account the fact that it should look the same on all browsers)? The ONLY function of css is the control of the visual treatment of content. The use of hacks are an annoyance, but they're only implemented due to the failure of browsers to comply with the standards. The various layout options are again designed purely to aid you in getting your site to look the way you want it to. Our way around such problems and the method we use to layout pages visually is the only thing that counts - if your css is messy or ugly or uses float as opposed to absolute position, who cares? The html is clean and semantic and the site looks the way you want it to. Isn't that what counts? Just a thought... R ;o) - Original Message - From: Paula Petrik [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 1:35 PM Subject: [WSG] Absolute Positioning-A Naive Question (Maybe) When I read the W3C specs (not the most riveting exercise on the planet), it seems that the developers emphasize absolute positioning. For example, they describe using floats to float small bits of text or images. It seems, however, that floats have become the order of the day. Rather than small bits, whole parts of designs are floated about. Was this the W3C's intent? Or, have floats become the modern equivalent of tables? Is there some reason why absolute positioning has fallen by the wayside? CSS-Discuss's wiki describes absolute positioning as capable of simple designs; yet, a significant proportion of csszengarden designs are absolutely positioned, and I wouldn't term them simple. Just wondering what the current wisdom is on this issue. Best, Paula Paula Petrik Professor Department of History Art History Associate Director Center for History New Media George Mason University http://www.archiva.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Absolute Positioning-A Naive Question (Maybe)
Felix Todd, Felix, nice to know that I'm in good company. Todd and Phillipe, I think that the footer business is the sticking point. But what is sacred about a footer? What information goes into a footer that could not go elsewhere? This has me puzzled. In the table days, the most important element in a footer was a text version of image links. Even today there seems to be very little of consequence in the footer on most pages. In addition, there must be others ways (or other places) to display this information. Lachlan, don't the faux columns technique (and its fellow travelers) address the problem of equal height columns? The reason I pose these questions is that I am testing a WYSIWYG program whose goal is to accommodate the rank beginner and the advanced user. I think that the engineers have hit on the idea of using absolute positioning to prevent beginners from making float errors--an interesting approach. Because the program emphasizes absolute positioning (it's also perfectly capable of floating everything), it has caused me to rethink all sorts of received wisdom. Best, Paula Paula Petrik Professor Department of History Art History Associate Director Center for History New Media George Mason University http://www.archiva.net On Mar 13, 2006, at 9:57 PM, Todd Baker wrote: The main reason I dont use absolute positioning for all my layout is that most of the sites I build require footers at the base of the page content. With every page of differing content length the only way to achieve this is to float and then clear for the footer. Thats just me. There are wiser brains on this list tho :) On 14/03/06, Paula Petrik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I read the W3C specs (not the most riveting exercise on the planet), it seems that the developers emphasize absolute positioning. For example, they describe using floats to float small bits of text or images. It seems, however, that floats have become the order of the day. Rather than small bits, whole parts of designs are floated about. Was this the W3C's intent? Or, have floats become the modern equivalent of tables? Is there some reason why absolute positioning has fallen by the wayside? CSS-Discuss's wiki describes absolute positioning as capable of simple designs; yet, a significant proportion of csszengarden designs are absolutely positioned, and I wouldn't term them simple. Just wondering what the current wisdom is on this issue. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Absolute Positioning-A Naive Question (Maybe)
Paula Petrik wrote: When I read the W3C specs (not the most riveting exercise on the planet), it seems that the developers emphasize absolute positioning. For example, they describe using floats to float small bits of text or images. It seems, however, that floats have become the order of the day. Rather than small bits, whole parts of designs are floated about. Was this the W3C's intent? Or, have floats become the modern equivalent of tables? In a manner of speaking, yes. Here is a whimsical page using floats in a way I believe they were actually intended to be used: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/holy-gruel/ifloats.htm Is there some reason why absolute positioning has fallen by the wayside? CSS-Discuss's wiki describes absolute positioning as capable of simple designs; yet, a significant proportion of csszengarden designs are absolutely positioned, and I wouldn't term them simple. Just wondering what the current wisdom is on this issue. It's one tool in the box - though I believe it is much more useful than a lot of other CSS authors. This page uses a classic float, as well as an absolutely positioned sidebar: http://www.projectseven.com/products/templates/pagepacks/tbm/keylime/p7keylime_03.htm -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
