Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On Aug 25, 2011, at 10:15 PM, Jay Tanna wrote: Personally I don't go out of my way to do anything special. I design the site as it comes and if some people can't access it - tough luck. There is no point in spending any additional time or money in buying specialist tools for people who are challenged in some form! Some people on certain forums call me dragon because of my no nonsense views and I don't normally let them down!. Well Jay, you are in the majority. We won't call you dragon–which I understood is on the raise due to the girl with the dragon tatoo, and it will reach to higher level next year when the year of the dragon arrives. Instead, we will call us dinosaur. Extinct. Defendless. If I may ask, what is the reason that you are in this list? Convert us to dragon perhaps? tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On Aug 25, 2011, at 10:15 PM, Jay Tanna wrote: Personally I don't go out of my way to do anything special. I design the site as it comes and if some people can't access it - tough luck. There is no point in spending any additional time or money in buying specialist tools for people who are challenged in some form! Some people on certain forums call me dragon because of my no nonsense views and I don't normally let them down!. well, that certainly is some kind of something you got there, Jay. should you ever find yourSELF to be challenged in some form which leaves you relying on others' having a few brain cells not entirely devoted to themselves, do check in and let us know what it's like out there. cat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
I would suggest that cater to isn't the most positive terminology to use with respect to those with disabilities. it implies some sort of not-really-necessary bending over backwards and engaging in some huge hassle and great imposition. if you think of doing business as offering a product or service in return for financial compensation, then you do whatever it takes, as many hard core bidness boosters like to say. I don't go in for slogans myself. The way I think about it is: if they have money I want, then I can make it easy for them to spend it on my product. aside from that, it simply boils down to basic courtesy and human decency. I mean...really...didn't we all learn better by age 5? cat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On Aug 26, 2011, at 1:15 AM, Jay Tanna wrote: Personally I don't go out of my way to do anything special. I design the site as it comes and if some people can't access it - tough luck. There is no point in spending any additional time or money in buying specialist tools for people who are challenged in some form! Some people on certain forums call me dragon because of my no nonsense views and I don't normally let them down!. A no nonsense view? IMO, as well as many of my clients, creating a site that doesn't seek to maximize the number of visitors is counter to the basic purpose of a site, which is to be viewed by as many people as possible. Accessibility is similar to designing sites for different browsers -- it doesn't take extraordinary effort/cost to consider and implement, it only takes knowledge and commitment. Cheers, tedd _ t...@sperling.com http://sperling.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
we have a new super-hero in our midst, keeping the city safe from people with disabilities and their nonsense. You'll see him in a costume pushing in front of disabled people trying to get on a bus and yelling his catch phrase 'tough luck' as the the door closes. Thanks No Nonsense Man! -- Chris Knowles On 26/08/11 3:15 PM, Jay Tanna wrote: Personally I don't go out of my way to do anything special. I design the site as it comes and if some people can't access it - tough luck. There is no point in spending any additional time or money in buying specialist tools for people who are challenged in some form! Some people on certain forums call me dragon because of my no nonsense views and I don't normally let them down!. --- On Thu, 18/8/11, Mike Kearw...@afpwebworks.com wrote: How to the rest of you a/b people (i.e. able bodied) cater to users with various forms of disability? Up until recently, I've tended to rely on keeping my code to standards, eliminating tables except for their proper purpose of tabulating data, and hoping that will give the accessibility level required. Do you go to the step of accessing your sites with JAWS or something similar to see how the site works for users with screen readers? I remember in the 1990s when I was working at Australian Consumers Association (choice.com.au) we had someone come and bring his PC with JAWS. The web team all sat in the boardroom getting ever more glum looks on our faces as we saw to our horror how terrible our new design was for this poor guy. We thought we'd got a terrific new design, and were about to launch it, when he did this demo for us. We had to go back and recode everything. This was before anyone was talking about standards though - it was back when the normally accepted method of laying out pages was to use tables, and buttons were nearly always images. I remember being astounded at how fast he was moving around the page, even though we'd unwittingly designed an obstacle course of humungous proportions for him. Our anguish at the time resulted in a far better web site, and convinced me to pay attention to standards and accessibility ever since. But now I'm wondering if simply sticking to standards is enough? What do you all think? Do you include JAWS in your site testing? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Chris Knowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
Hi Jay I wouldn't dream of calling you a dragon: I like dragons. Refusing to cater to the needs of people with disabilities means exposing your clients to the risk of law suits (depending on the jurisdiction in which you're working). This strikes me, not as 'no- nonsense', but as unprofessional. People with disabilities are a large and diverse group, and their needs often overlap with non- disabled groups. If a website is being (re)developed for a government organisation or large business, then there should be room in the budget for usability testing, and some of that testing should be specifically targeted at disabled users. As Chris has noted, fixing problems for disabled users can lead to improvements in the site for everyone. On the other hand, if a site is being built for a small business or non-profit organisation, there may be no budget for usability testing: in that case, I would recommend building to standards and following commonly-accepted guidelines. It may not meet everybody's needs, but should meet most. (I'd also recommend including an editor in the team, but of course I'm biassed.) Elizabeth Spiegel Web editor www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Chris Knowles Sent: Saturday, 27 August 2011 7:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? we have a new super-hero in our midst, keeping the city safe from people with disabilities and their nonsense. You'll see him in a costume pushing in front of disabled people trying to get on a bus and yelling his catch phrase 'tough luck' as the the door closes. Thanks No Nonsense Man! -- Chris Knowles On 26/08/11 3:15 PM, Jay Tanna wrote: Personally I don't go out of my way to do anything special. I design the site as it comes and if some people can't access it - tough luck. There is no point in spending any additional time or money in buying specialist tools for people who are challenged in some form! Some people on certain forums call me dragon because of my no nonsense views and I don't normally let them down!. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On 26/08/11 5:15 PM, Jay Tanna wrote: Personally I don't go out of my way to do anything special. I design the site as it comes and if some people can't access it - tough luck. There is no point in spending any additional time or money in buying specialist tools for people who are challenged in some form! Some people on certain forums call me dragon because of my no nonsense views and I don't normally let them down!. ^ ^ This would be what's termed a troll, folks. Let's just leave well alone :) Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On 26.08.2011 17:55, Tedd Sperling wrote: Accessibility is similar to designing sites for different browsers -- it doesn't take extraordinary effort/cost to consider and implement, it only takes knowledge and commitment. +1 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
Personally I don't go out of my way to do anything special. I design the site as it comes and if some people can't access it - tough luck. There is no point in spending any additional time or money in buying specialist tools for people who are challenged in some form! Some people on certain forums call me dragon because of my no nonsense views and I don't normally let them down!. --- On Thu, 18/8/11, Mike Kear w...@afpwebworks.com wrote: How to the rest of you a/b people (i.e. able bodied) cater to users with various forms of disability? Up until recently, I've tended to rely on keeping my code to standards, eliminating tables except for their proper purpose of tabulating data, and hoping that will give the accessibility level required. Do you go to the step of accessing your sites with JAWS or something similar to see how the site works for users with screen readers? I remember in the 1990s when I was working at Australian Consumers Association (choice.com.au) we had someone come and bring his PC with JAWS. The web team all sat in the boardroom getting ever more glum looks on our faces as we saw to our horror how terrible our new design was for this poor guy. We thought we'd got a terrific new design, and were about to launch it, when he did this demo for us. We had to go back and recode everything. This was before anyone was talking about standards though - it was back when the normally accepted method of laying out pages was to use tables, and buttons were nearly always images. I remember being astounded at how fast he was moving around the page, even though we'd unwittingly designed an obstacle course of humungous proportions for him. Our anguish at the time resulted in a far better web site, and convinced me to pay attention to standards and accessibility ever since. But now I'm wondering if simply sticking to standards is enough? What do you all think? Do you include JAWS in your site testing? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
I work with the Yahoo Accessibility Lab. We push our engineers to go beyond making sure images have alt attributes and truly consider accessibility usability. This includes making sure sites are keyboard accessible, zoom friendly, and screen-reader accessible. ARIA is becoming a larger part of our programming. Most Yahoo sites use ARIA roles and the YUI JavaScript library, which is used on all of our sites, includes many components that integrate focus control and ARIA attributes. You can learn more at http://accessibilty.yahoo.com/library/ Ted Drake On 8/18/11 6:12 AM, Mike Kear w...@afpwebworks.com wrote: How to the rest of you a/b people (i.e. able bodied) cater to users with various forms of disability? Up until recently, I've tended to rely on keeping my code to standards, eliminating tables except for their proper purpose of tabulating data, and hoping that will give the accessibility level required. Do you go to the step of accessing your sites with JAWS or something similar to see how the site works for users with screen readers? I remember in the 1990s when I was working at Australian Consumers Association (choice.com.au) we had someone come and bring his PC with JAWS. The web team all sat in the boardroom getting ever more glum looks on our faces as we saw to our horror how terrible our new design was for this poor guy. We thought we'd got a terrific new design, and were about to launch it, when he did this demo for us. We had to go back and recode everything. This was before anyone was talking about standards though - it was back when the normally accepted method of laying out pages was to use tables, and buttons were nearly always images. I remember being astounded at how fast he was moving around the page, even though we'd unwittingly designed an obstacle course of humungous proportions for him. Our anguish at the time resulted in a far better web site, and convinced me to pay attention to standards and accessibility ever since. But now I'm wondering if simply sticking to standards is enough? What do you all think? Do you include JAWS in your site testing? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
The conclusion I am coming to, with 5 days since I asked this and no-one actually saying they do ANYTHING to cater for people with disabilities, is that even after all this time, no one really spends much time thinking about users with special needs, other than to code to standards and hope that does the trick. No one either agreed or disagreed with the proposition that sticking to standards IS in fact enough. I asked this question, wondering if someone would say 'yes we have a usability lab' or 'we have a consultant who runs our sites through his screen reader for us' or 'we have meetings before launch specifically to discuss' or something. But no one has said they do anything at all for users with disability. The only responses I've had to this question are people referring me to documents on line that I found long ago with google. I was interested that none of the people who gave me those URLS (except Josh Street) said they actually used the advice in the documents themselves. Josh wasn't specific about how he caters to people with special needs, but seems to speak with some knowledge so I'm assuming he caters to Dyslexics in his designs. I guess it's going to take another law suit like that one against the Olympics2000 site to get anyone to take users with special needs seriously and actually lift a finger to cater to their needs. The conclusion I'm being forced towards is that developers are basically saying that users with special needs will have to swim for themselves and it's up to them to find some software of their own to get around all the obstacles the A/Bs put in their way. I'm glad at least property developers have been forced to change that attitude. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2011 11:12 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? How to the rest of you a/b people (i.e. able bodied) cater to users with various forms of disability? Up until recently, I've tended to rely on keeping my code to standards, eliminating tables except for their proper purpose of tabulating data, and hoping that will give the accessibility level required. Do you go to the step of accessing your sites with JAWS or something similar to see how the site works for users with screen readers? I remember in the 1990s when I was working at Australian Consumers Association (choice.com.au) we had someone come and bring his PC with JAWS. The web team all sat in the boardroom getting ever more glum looks on our faces as we saw to our horror how terrible our new design was for this poor guy. We thought we'd got a terrific new design, and were about to launch it, when he did this demo for us. We had to go back and recode everything. This was before anyone was talking about standards though - it was back when the normally accepted method of laying out pages was to use tables, and buttons were nearly always images. I remember being astounded at how fast he was moving around the page, even though we'd unwittingly designed an obstacle course of humungous proportions for him. Our anguish at the time resulted in a far better web site, and convinced me to pay attention to standards and accessibility ever since. But now I'm wondering if simply sticking to standards is enough? What do you all think? Do you include JAWS in your site testing? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
Mike, maybe you should have worded your question a little differently. At my company, we don't approach accessibility as catering to users with disabilities, but we work toward making applications accessible to the greatest number of users possible. No application will ever be 100% accessible, but following standards and WCAG 2.0 guidelines helps us to get as close to 100% as possible. To answer your question - Sticking to standards is not enough. Accessibility and usability testing are critical. At my company, we have both an accessibility lab and a usability lab. We have accessibility and assistive technology (AT) experts onsite who test using various AT, and who work with actual AT users to identify issues with applications. We also train designers and developers to identify accessibility issues early in the design and development lifecycle. There are several other companies I know of that are doing the same and so much more, such as Adobe, IBM, Microsoft and Yahoo. As for developers not caring about people with disabilities, I disagree. There is a large community of developers who take accessibility seriously and are striving to make applications accessible to people with disabilities. -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 2:54 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? The conclusion I am coming to, with 5 days since I asked this and no-one actually saying they do ANYTHING to cater for people with disabilities, is that even after all this time, no one really spends much time thinking about users with special needs, other than to code to standards and hope that does the trick. No one either agreed or disagreed with the proposition that sticking to standards IS in fact enough. I asked this question, wondering if someone would say 'yes we have a usability lab' or 'we have a consultant who runs our sites through his screen reader for us' or 'we have meetings before launch specifically to discuss' or something. But no one has said they do anything at all for users with disability. The only responses I've had to this question are people referring me to documents on line that I found long ago with google. I was interested that none of the people who gave me those URLS (except Josh Street) said they actually used the advice in the documents themselves. Josh wasn't specific about how he caters to people with special needs, but seems to speak with some knowledge so I'm assuming he caters to Dyslexics in his designs. I guess it's going to take another law suit like that one against the Olympics2000 site to get anyone to take users with special needs seriously and actually lift a finger to cater to their needs. The conclusion I'm being forced towards is that developers are basically saying that users with special needs will have to swim for themselves and it's up to them to find some software of their own to get around all the obstacles the A/Bs put in their way. I'm glad at least property developers have been forced to change that attitude. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2011 11:12 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? How to the rest of you a/b people (i.e. able bodied) cater to users with various forms of disability? Up until recently, I've tended to rely on keeping my code to standards, eliminating tables except for their proper purpose of tabulating data, and hoping that will give the accessibility level required. Do you go to the step of accessing your sites with JAWS or something similar to see how the site works for users with screen readers? I remember in the 1990s when I was working at Australian Consumers Association (choice.com.au) we had someone come and bring his PC with JAWS. The web team all sat in the boardroom getting ever more glum looks on our faces as we saw to our horror how terrible our new design was for this poor guy. We thought we'd got a terrific new design, and were about to launch it, when he did this demo for us. We had to go back and recode everything. This was before anyone was talking about standards though - it was back when the normally accepted method of laying out pages was to use tables, and buttons were nearly always images. I remember being astounded at how fast he was moving around the page, even though we'd unwittingly designed an obstacle course of humungous proportions for him. Our anguish at the time resulted in a far better web site, and convinced me to pay
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On 2011/08/23 15:11 (GMT) Julie Romanowski julie.romanowski.l...@statefarm.com composed: To answer your question - Sticking to standards is not enough. Accessibility and usability testing are critical. At my company, we have both an accessibility lab and a usability lab. We have accessibility and assistive technology (AT) experts onsite who test using various AT, and who work with actual AT users to identify issues with applications. We also train designers and developers to identify accessibility issues early in the design and development lifecycle. I guess State Farm's definition of accessibility is vastly different from mine. Otherwise, its online banking wouldn't be using text sized in px (12px body on online2.statefarm.com/b2c/mysf/MyAccount) to 40% the size of my browser UI text and 25% the size of my browser's default. And it wouldn't be printing about 12 times the size displayed on screen. I only get about 8 transactions per page printing scheduled payments confirmation lists. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
I have to agree with Julie here. Working for the largest UK retailer we pay a lot of attention to accessibility. Currently reviewing http://www.tesco.com/ in response to only five minor issues raised by the RNIB accessibility report. The way we state it is web standards and validation are the first step in creating an accessible site. Though to be fair we struggle with even that as the sites are huge. Personally I'd say any developer (novices excluded) who doesn't give a damn about accessibility should give up coding and focus on design instead. Regards Mike -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Julie Romanowski Sent: 23 August 2011 16:12 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? Mike, maybe you should have worded your question a little differently. At my company, we don't approach accessibility as catering to users with disabilities, but we work toward making applications accessible to the greatest number of users possible. No application will ever be 100% accessible, but following standards and WCAG 2.0 guidelines helps us to get as close to 100% as possible. To answer your question - Sticking to standards is not enough. Accessibility and usability testing are critical. At my company, we have both an accessibility lab and a usability lab. We have accessibility and assistive technology (AT) experts onsite who test using various AT, and who work with actual AT users to identify issues with applications. We also train designers and developers to identify accessibility issues early in the design and development lifecycle. There are several other companies I know of that are doing the same and so much more, such as Adobe, IBM, Microsoft and Yahoo. As for developers not caring about people with disabilities, I disagree. There is a large community of developers who take accessibility seriously and are striving to make applications accessible to people with disabilities. -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 2:54 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? The conclusion I am coming to, with 5 days since I asked this and no-one actually saying they do ANYTHING to cater for people with disabilities, is that even after all this time, no one really spends much time thinking about users with special needs, other than to code to standards and hope that does the trick. No one either agreed or disagreed with the proposition that sticking to standards IS in fact enough. I asked this question, wondering if someone would say 'yes we have a usability lab' or 'we have a consultant who runs our sites through his screen reader for us' or 'we have meetings before launch specifically to discuss' or something. But no one has said they do anything at all for users with disability. The only responses I've had to this question are people referring me to documents on line that I found long ago with google. I was interested that none of the people who gave me those URLS (except Josh Street) said they actually used the advice in the documents themselves. Josh wasn't specific about how he caters to people with special needs, but seems to speak with some knowledge so I'm assuming he caters to Dyslexics in his designs. I guess it's going to take another law suit like that one against the Olympics2000 site to get anyone to take users with special needs seriously and actually lift a finger to cater to their needs. The conclusion I'm being forced towards is that developers are basically saying that users with special needs will have to swim for themselves and it's up to them to find some software of their own to get around all the obstacles the A/Bs put in their way. I'm glad at least property developers have been forced to change that attitude. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2011 11:12 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? How to the rest of you a/b people (i.e. able bodied) cater to users with various forms of disability? Up until recently, I've tended to rely on keeping my code to standards, eliminating tables except for their proper purpose of tabulating data, and hoping that will give the accessibility level required. Do you go to the step of accessing your sites with JAWS or something similar to see how the site works for users with screen readers? I remember in the 1990s when I was working at Australian Consumers
RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
Sad, but true, Felix. We know State Farm Bank (among other sites/applications) has accessibility issues and are working with the support area to resolve them. Unfortunately, changes like this take time. Unfortunately, there are people in every organization who don't like change, and a couple of people from the bank area have not been open to accessibility fixes. However, as a customer, you may have more power than you think. Let State Farm Bank know about the accessibility issues you are encountering. Email, phone, snail mail...I would be happy to give you the CEO's mailing address and you can contact him directly! -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Felix Miata Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 10:50 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? On 2011/08/23 15:11 (GMT) Julie Romanowski julie.romanowski.l...@statefarm.com composed: To answer your question - Sticking to standards is not enough. Accessibility and usability testing are critical. At my company, we have both an accessibility lab and a usability lab. We have accessibility and assistive technology (AT) experts onsite who test using various AT, and who work with actual AT users to identify issues with applications. We also train designers and developers to identify accessibility issues early in the design and development lifecycle. I guess State Farm's definition of accessibility is vastly different from mine. Otherwise, its online banking wouldn't be using text sized in px (12px body on online2.statefarm.com/b2c/mysf/MyAccount) to 40% the size of my browser UI text and 25% the size of my browser's default. And it wouldn't be printing about 12 times the size displayed on screen. I only get about 8 transactions per page printing scheduled payments confirmation lists. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On 8/23/11 3:53 AM, Mike Kear wrote: Mike Kear http://afpwebworks.com Setting the fonts at user default and ditching Verdana is the first place to start... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On 8/23/11 12:53 AM, Mike Kear wrote: I guess it's going to take another law suit like that one against the Olympics2000 site to get anyone to take users with special needs seriously and actually lift a finger to cater to their needs. What would that lift a finger actually consist of? I'm specifically curious how that relates to the many individual site developers who certainly don't have a usability lab nor projects budgeted to hire a screen-reader-wielding consultant. The conclusion I'm being forced towards is that developers are basically saying that users with special needs will have to swim for themselves and it's up to them to find some software of their own to get around all the obstacles the A/Bs put in their way. Are you saying that sites designed to web standards are by default full of obstacles? Or that conformance to web standards is simply orthogonal to accessibility? -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com http://about.me/hassanschroeder twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On 2011/08/23 16:35 (GMT) Julie Romanowski composed: Sad, but true, Felix. We know State Farm Bank (among other sites/applications) has accessibility issues and are working with the support area to resolve them. Unfortunately, changes like this take time. Unfortunately, there are people in every organization who don't like change, and a couple of people from the bank area have not been open to accessibility fixes. However, as a customer, you may have more power than you think. Let State Farm Bank know about the accessibility issues you are encountering. Email, phone, snail mail...I would be happy to give you the CEO's mailing address and you can contact him directly! My account is just over two years old. I'm sure I haven't complained by phone less than 6 times, so please enable me to mail upstream wherever there's any chance to be listened to. Email I've not bothered, as I know how useless that normally is with big business sites. It's probably too late to do any good. Now that its interest on checking rate that attracted me in the first place has dropped to nuisance level, I'm about to find a bank that pays at least 1%. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
I am not part of this conversation and don't understand why I received this e-mail. Ted Knoy On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Julie Romanowski julie.romanowski.l...@statefarm.com wrote: Mike, maybe you should have worded your question a little differently. At my company, we don't approach accessibility as catering to users with disabilities, but we work toward making applications accessible to the greatest number of users possible. No application will ever be 100% accessible, but following standards and WCAG 2.0 guidelines helps us to get as close to 100% as possible. To answer your question - Sticking to standards is not enough. Accessibility and usability testing are critical. At my company, we have both an accessibility lab and a usability lab. We have accessibility and assistive technology (AT) experts onsite who test using various AT, and who work with actual AT users to identify issues with applications. We also train designers and developers to identify accessibility issues early in the design and development lifecycle. There are several other companies I know of that are doing the same and so much more, such as Adobe, IBM, Microsoft and Yahoo. As for developers not caring about people with disabilities, I disagree. There is a large community of developers who take accessibility seriously and are striving to make applications accessible to people with disabilities. -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 2:54 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? The conclusion I am coming to, with 5 days since I asked this and no-one actually saying they do ANYTHING to cater for people with disabilities, is that even after all this time, no one really spends much time thinking about users with special needs, other than to code to standards and hope that does the trick. No one either agreed or disagreed with the proposition that sticking to standards IS in fact enough. I asked this question, wondering if someone would say 'yes we have a usability lab' or 'we have a consultant who runs our sites through his screen reader for us' or 'we have meetings before launch specifically to discuss' or something. But no one has said they do anything at all for users with disability. The only responses I've had to this question are people referring me to documents on line that I found long ago with google. I was interested that none of the people who gave me those URLS (except Josh Street) said they actually used the advice in the documents themselves. Josh wasn't specific about how he caters to people with special needs, but seems to speak with some knowledge so I'm assuming he caters to Dyslexics in his designs. I guess it's going to take another law suit like that one against the Olympics2000 site to get anyone to take users with special needs seriously and actually lift a finger to cater to their needs. The conclusion I'm being forced towards is that developers are basically saying that users with special needs will have to swim for themselves and it's up to them to find some software of their own to get around all the obstacles the A/Bs put in their way. I'm glad at least property developers have been forced to change that attitude. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NEThttp://asp.net/hosting from AUD$15/month -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2011 11:12 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? How to the rest of you a/b people (i.e. able bodied) cater to users with various forms of disability? Up until recently, I've tended to rely on keeping my code to standards, eliminating tables except for their proper purpose of tabulating data, and hoping that will give the accessibility level required. Do you go to the step of accessing your sites with JAWS or something similar to see how the site works for users with screen readers? I remember in the 1990s when I was working at Australian Consumers Association (choice.com.au) we had someone come and bring his PC with JAWS. The web team all sat in the boardroom getting ever more glum looks on our faces as we saw to our horror how terrible our new design was for this poor guy. We thought we'd got a terrific new design, and were about to launch it, when he did this demo for us. We had to go back and recode everything. This was before anyone was talking about standards though - it was back when the normally accepted method of laying out pages was to use tables, and buttons were nearly always images. I remember being
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, David Laakso wrote: On 8/23/11 3:53 AM, Mike Kear wrote: Mike Kear http://afpwebworks.com Setting the fonts at user default Absolutely! and ditching Verdana is the first place to start... Totally irrelevant. There is nothing wrong with Verdana; it is only very slightly larger than Helvetica or Arial. Problems only occur when its font size is reduced to compensate. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, http://cfajohnson.com/ Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On 8/23/11 2:07 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, David Laakso wrote: On 8/23/11 3:53 AM, Mike Kear wrote: Mike Kear http://afpwebworks.com Setting the fonts at user default Absolutely! and ditching Verdana is the first place to start... Totally irrelevant. There is nothing wrong with Verdana; it is only very slightly larger than Helvetica or Arial. Problems only occur when its font size is reduced to compensate. It is relevant only if you are one of the few on the planet who are concerned with typography and see Verdana for what it is at default: pug-ugly. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On 2011-08-23 19:12, David Laakso wrote: It is relevant only if you are one of the few on the planet who are concerned with typography and see Verdana for what it is at default: pug-ugly. While that might be your opinion, it's not necessarily relevant to the topic of this discussion: Usability and Web Standards. -- ___ Tom Ditmarszarggg [at] zarggg [dot] net KeyID: 0x2E22D768 --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On 8/23/11 7:32 PM, Tom Ditmars wrote:
On 2011-08-23 19:12, David Laakso wrote:
It is relevant only if you are one of the few on the planet who are
concerned with typography and see Verdana for what it is at default:
pug-ugly.
While that might be your opinion, it's not necessarily relevant to the
topic of this discussion: Usability and Web Standards.
Then this will do...
body { font-family: sans-serif; }
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RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Hi Mike, Please forgive me if I am being repetitive as I have not read all of the replies to your question. I have worked in commonwealth government for several years, so can only give you a perspective from that angle. All commonwealth and State Government departments must now comply with the National Transition Strategy which was released by AGIMO in June 2010 (available from the AGIMO site). Most Government agencies have teams working on becoming compliant with the Strategy. That I am aware of, the ATO, Immigration and Centrelink have had Usability centres, labs and Accessibility teams for many years not only to enable ease of use of their web sites and web applications by people using assistive software - both internally (employees) and externally (clients) - but making them generally more usable to all members of the community and staff. Regards, Karen Conyers Mike Kear wsg@afpwebworks. com To Sent by: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org lists@webstandard cc sgroup.org Subject RE: [WSG] How do you cater to 23/08/2011 05:53 users with disabilities? PMProtective Mark Please respond to wsg@webstandardsg roup.org The conclusion I am coming to, with 5 days since I asked this and no-one actually saying they do ANYTHING to cater for people with disabilities, is that even after all this time, no one really spends much time thinking about users with special needs, other than to code to standards and hope that does the trick. No one either agreed or disagreed with the proposition that sticking to standards IS in fact enough. I asked this question, wondering if someone would say 'yes we have a usability lab' or 'we have a consultant who runs our sites through his screen reader for us' or 'we have meetings before launch specifically to discuss' or something. But no one has said they do anything at all for users with disability. The only responses I've had to this question are people referring me to documents on line that I found long ago with google. I was interested that none of the people who gave me those URLS (except Josh Street) said they actually used the advice in the documents themselves. Josh wasn't specific about how he caters to people with special needs, but seems to speak with some knowledge so I'm assuming he caters to Dyslexics in his designs. I guess it's going to take another law suit like that one against the Olympics2000 site to get anyone to take users with special needs seriously and actually lift a finger to cater to their needs. The conclusion I'm being forced towards is that developers are basically saying that users with special needs will have to swim for themselves and it's up to them to find some software of their own to get around all the obstacles the A/Bs put in their way. I'm glad at least property developers have been forced to change that attitude. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2011 11:12 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? How to the rest of you a/b people (i.e. able bodied) cater to users with various forms of disability? Up until recently, I've tended to rely on keeping my code to standards, eliminating tables except for their proper purpose of tabulating data, and hoping that will give the accessibility level required. Do you go to the step of accessing your sites with JAWS or something similar to see how the site works for users with screen readers? I remember in the 1990s when I was working at Australian Consumers Association (choice.com.au) we had someone come and bring his PC with JAWS. The web team all sat in the boardroom getting ever
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
Then this will do...
body { font-family: sans-serif; }
If you ever do this, I strongly suggest you test it on older Windows System.
tee
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Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On 8/23/11 10:32 PM, tee wrote:
Then this will do...
body { font-family: sans-serif; }
If you ever do this, I strongly suggest you test it on older Windows System.
tee
Each and everyone of you win. I give-up. I have taken a coil of rope to
the woods. Farewell.
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Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
On 8/24/2011 10:29 AM, karen.cony...@immi.gov.au wrote:
Hi Mike,
Please forgive me if I am being repetitive as I have not read
all of the replies to your question.
I have worked in commonwealth government for several years, so
can only give you a perspective from that angle. All
commonwealth and State Government departments must now comply
with the National Transition Strategy which was released by
AGIMO in June 2010 (available from the AGIMO site). Most
Government agencies have teams working on becoming compliant
with the Strategy.
That I am aware of, the ATO, Immigration and Centrelink have had
Usability centres, labs and Accessibility teams for many years
not only to enable ease of use of their web sites and web
applications by people using assistive software - both
internally (employees) and externally (clients) - but making
them generally more usable to all members of the community and
staff.
Regards, Karen Conyers
"Mike Kear"
w...@afpwebworks.com
"Mike Kear" w...@afpwebworks.com
Sent by: li...@webstandardsgroup.org
23/08/2011 05:53 PM
Please respond to
wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
To
wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
cc
Subject
RE: [WSG] How do you cater to users with
disabilities?
Protective Mark
The conclusion I am coming to, with 5 days since I asked
this and no-one
actually saying they do ANYTHING to cater for people with
disabilities, is
that even after all this time, no one really spends much time
thinking about
users with special needs, other than to code to standards and
hope that does
the trick.
No one either agreed or disagreed with the proposition that
sticking to
standards IS in fact enough.
I asked this question, wondering if someone would say 'yes we
have a
usability lab' or 'we have a consultant who runs our sites
through his
screen reader for us' or 'we have meetings before launch
specifically to
discuss' or something. But no one has said they do anything at
all for
users with disability.
The only responses I've had to this question are people
referring me to
documents on line that I found long ago with google. I was
interested that
none of the people who gave me those URLS (except Josh Street)
said they
actually used the advice in the documents themselves. Josh
wasn't specific
about how he caters to people with special needs, but seems to
speak with
some knowledge so I'm assuming he caters to Dyslexics in his
designs.
I guess it's going to take another law suit like that one
against the
Olympics2000 site to get anyone to take users with special
needs seriously
and actually lift a finger to cater to their needs.
The conclusion I'm being forced towards is that developers are
basically
saying that users with special needs will have to swim for
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On Aug 18, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Josh Street wrote: Many dyslexics have difficulty with certain fonts or with small print; others would prefer to have a colored background to reduce contrast. Stumbled on this article: Dyslexie, A Typeface Designed To Help Dyslexics Read Comment from Pam T offers a voice that I rarely read from people who does website accessibility and accessibility practitioners. http://www.fastcodesign.com/1664561/dyslexie-a-typeface-designed-to-help-dyslexics-read Unfortunately, the preferences of dyslexic people vary considerably. For example, it is unusual for someone to be better at reading all capitals. Generally, this makes text much harder to read, both for non-dyslexics and dyslexics. Also, some dyslexic people are tremendously confused by sans-serif fonts, which make it difficult to distinguish a capital I from the lower-case 'l' for example. Read more: http://www.dyslexia.com/library/webdesign.htm#ixzz1VR2sig6D Curious, do any of the accessibility practitioners not think user has responsibility too? I ask this because I don't remember reading anything about it. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
How to the rest of you a/b people (i.e. able bodied) cater to users with various forms of disability? Up until recently, I've tended to rely on keeping my code to standards, eliminating tables except for their proper purpose of tabulating data, and hoping that will give the accessibility level required. Do you go to the step of accessing your sites with JAWS or something similar to see how the site works for users with screen readers? I remember in the 1990s when I was working at Australian Consumers Association (choice.com.au) we had someone come and bring his PC with JAWS. The web team all sat in the boardroom getting ever more glum looks on our faces as we saw to our horror how terrible our new design was for this poor guy. We thought we'd got a terrific new design, and were about to launch it, when he did this demo for us. We had to go back and recode everything. This was before anyone was talking about standards though - it was back when the normally accepted method of laying out pages was to use tables, and buttons were nearly always images. I remember being astounded at how fast he was moving around the page, even though we'd unwittingly designed an obstacle course of humungous proportions for him. Our anguish at the time resulted in a far better web site, and convinced me to pay attention to standards and accessibility ever since. But now I'm wondering if simply sticking to standards is enough? What do you all think? Do you include JAWS in your site testing? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
RE: But now I'm wondering if simply sticking to standards is enough? Hi Mike, Here's what W3C WAI has to say on Involving Users in Web Projects for Better, Easier Accessibility: http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/involving.html It is an introduction and links to some More Information and Guidance under http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/involving.html#fmi I hope you find this useful. As always, suggestions for revisions are welcome. Regards, ~Shawn - Shawn Lawton Henry W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) e-mail: sh...@w3.org phone: +1.617.395.7664 about: http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/ On 8/18/2011 8:12 AM, Mike Kear wrote: How to the rest of you a/b people (i.e. able bodied) cater to users with various forms of disability? Up until recently, I've tended to rely on keeping my code to standards, eliminating tables except for their proper purpose of tabulating data, and hoping that will give the accessibility level required. Do you go to the step of accessing your sites with JAWS or something similar to see how the site works for users with screen readers? I remember in the 1990s when I was working at Australian Consumers Association (choice.com.au) we had someone come and bring his PC with JAWS. The web team all sat in the boardroom getting ever more glum looks on our faces as we saw to our horror how terrible our new design was for this poor guy. We thought we'd got a terrific new design, and were about to launch it, when he did this demo for us. We had to go back and recode everything. This was before anyone was talking about standards though - it was back when the normally accepted method of laying out pages was to use tables, and buttons were nearly always images. I remember being astounded at how fast he was moving around the page, even though we'd unwittingly designed an obstacle course of humungous proportions for him. Our anguish at the time resulted in a far better web site, and convinced me to pay attention to standards and accessibility ever since. But now I'm wondering if simply sticking to standards is enough? What do you all think? Do you include JAWS in your site testing? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
Hi Mike, It's probably worth looking into ARIA [1] and WCAG [2] as two standardised ways of building and assessing how websites can cater to a broader range of users. I know that some members of this list also follow the W3C's Web Accessibility Initiative [3] mailing list, which, between flame wars about how broadly accessible accessibility actually should be, provides some helpful insights into testing methodology, techniques, etc. for making content accessible to users. The one thing I'd note about JAWS particularly is that it's just one Assistive Technology (AT) but accessibility is a bigger beast than that. In particular, there are certain design decisions (high contrast vs. reduced contrast websites, etc.) that have conflicting ramifications for usability to particular groups. The contrast issue in particular makes things easier or harder for users with impaired vision or dyslexia in contrasting (if you'll excuse the pun!) ways. In fact, this site suggests that even among dyslexic users there are varied preferences for reading content: Many dyslexics have difficulty with certain fonts or with small print; others would prefer to have a colored background to reduce contrast. Unfortunately, the preferences of dyslexic people vary considerably. For example, it is unusual for someone to be better at reading all capitals. Generally, this makes text much harder to read, both for non-dyslexics and dyslexics. Also, some dyslexic people are tremendously confused by sans-serif fonts, which make it difficult to distinguish a capital I from the lower-case 'l' for example. Read more: http://www.dyslexia.com/library/webdesign.htm#ixzz1VR2sig6D At this point, user stylesheets are probably the only way forward: our job as authors and publishers is to step back and permit that to happen. A much-run debate on this list in the past has related to default font-size, and often it's seemed to be Felix Miata (respect user defaults) vs. the world (our designers/bosses/evil overlords want text to look a certain way). I know you've been here a while so you've probably run across it! I love your story from Choice - it's a fantastic anecdote of how accessibility really needs to be 'baked in' to the whole process. Would you mind if I reproduced it (with attribution) elsewhere? Cheers, Josh 1. http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines (a better launchpad than the official page), http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ 3. http://www.w3.org/WAI/IG/ p.s. Felix, if you're reading this, apologies if I've misrepresented your views - respect user defaults is obviously a simplification but it's mostly how I've understood what you've been saying! Come back at me if I'm still missing the point after all these years! On 18/08/2011, at 11:12 PM, Mike Kear wrote: How to the rest of you a/b people (i.e. able bodied) cater to users with various forms of disability? Up until recently, I've tended to rely on keeping my code to standards, eliminating tables except for their proper purpose of tabulating data, and hoping that will give the accessibility level required. Do you go to the step of accessing your sites with JAWS or something similar to see how the site works for users with screen readers? I remember in the 1990s when I was working at Australian Consumers Association (choice.com.au) we had someone come and bring his PC with JAWS. The web team all sat in the boardroom getting ever more glum looks on our faces as we saw to our horror how terrible our new design was for this poor guy. We thought we'd got a terrific new design, and were about to launch it, when he did this demo for us. We had to go back and recode everything. This was before anyone was talking about standards though - it was back when the normally accepted method of laying out pages was to use tables, and buttons were nearly always images. I remember being astounded at how fast he was moving around the page, even though we'd unwittingly designed an obstacle course of humungous proportions for him. Our anguish at the time resulted in a far better web site, and convinced me to pay attention to standards and accessibility ever since. But now I'm wondering if simply sticking to standards is enough? What do you all think? Do you include JAWS in your site testing? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
