Re: [WSG] drop down menus - long
John Allsopp wrote: ...Has anyone done any user testing on drop downs? Tania maybe? In response now John has dobbed me in ;-) USER PREFERENCES My favourite quote from a usability test session 2 weeks ago "Drop down lists obstruct what I want to do [re: Navigation links] Like descriptive two liners that tells me about it" Having said that, general comments and feedback from users during usability testing and in focus groups is that users 'claim' they prefer drop down menus. Regular users of one site I was working on repeatedly requested drop down menus as they access the site regularly and knew where everything was in the site and wanted to get to it quickly. I just did usability testing with 12 users of a site with a single level vertical drop down menu (i.e. not cascading or fly-outs) similar to ourbrisbane.com. In the post test survey when users were asked what they liked most about the site, many of them mentioned the menus that let them get anywhere in the site easily. Only one user did not really like them (see quote above). Having said that, it is worth noting Nielsen's First rule of usability is 'Don't listen to your users' http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20010805.html. I suspect users like single level drop down menus because they PERCEIVE that they can get anywhere in the site much quicker. The reality is often different with users making high error rates as they make wild guesses and click on any link that looks vaguely like what they are after. INDEX MENUS / NAVIGATION PAGES One study (Bernard Hamblin, 2003) showed that users generally complete their tasks quicker and with fewer errors using indexed menu design vs cascading menus. This is probably because users' decision making process is supported along the way. I did extensive usability testing on a site (www.trainandemploy.qld.gov.au) with 35 users about 18 months ago. This site does not use any drop down or fly-out menus (which I detested at the time of redevelopment). The site uses 'index' menus/pages with 2nd level menu on the left that also aligns with in-page heading links with (in theory) 1-2 lines of text to support the users decision. On lower level pages, the 2nd level menu expands and the 3rd level menu appears on the left hand side (as per Qld Government CUE web standard). See http://www.trainandemploy.qld.gov.au/client/courses/ This navigation model usability tested quite well with low error rates, high task completion rates and low completion times. Users generally dont mind an extra click or two if they feel they are on the right track. Some repeat users have since given feedback that they want drop down menus to get to regularly visited deep pages. DROP DOWN MENUS As mentioned, I also just did usability testing with 12 users of a site with a single level vertical drop down menus similar to ourbrisbane. As mentioned, users really liked these menus but the task completion rate was low and the error rate was high (many of them tried several options). Whilst drop down menu may have only been one contributing factor, I did observe users scanning the menus and different drop downs and taking some wild guesses to get where they wanted which often resulted in going to a wrong page. The primary navigation link at the top of these drop down menus pointed to an index page (essential for accessibility reasons if you use drop down menus). This index page includes a 1-2 line description of what was under each link. However, none of the 12 users clicked on the links to index pages and why would they (assuming they even realised it was there) when there is the option to bypass this page and go straight to the relevant content page. Users will always take the shortest route as humans are fundamentally lazy. I haven't done any accessibility testing of these menus but I believe they can present accessibility problems with screen magnifiers. Cascading or fly-out menus (did I mention I hate these) require the use fine motor skills and precise up, down, left, right actions that can be annoying or inaccessible for all users but especially for those with motor skill impairments such as seniors with arthritis. I also havent done any benchmarking studies on the same site using different navigation models so it is difficult to conclude which is more usable and leads to greater user satisfaction, high completion rates, lower error rates and lower completion times. CONCLUSION The jury is still out for me although I am warming up to drop down menus for some websites. I have always leant towards index menus, discouraged drop down menus and strongly discouraged multilevel fly-out menus or cascading menus. Whilst I still intensely dislike cascading menus (please don't get me started), I have mixed feelings about drop down menus. My current view is as follows: User index menus and navigation pages such as http://www.ourbrisbane.com/living/ for sites: 1) whose information architecture / menu structure has not been usability tested with
Re: [WSG] drop down menus - long
On 4 Aug 2005, at 7:39 PM, Tania Lang wrote: 1) with regular repeat users that want to access deep content quickly and know where it is e.g. Portals, Intranets, Extranets. Thanks for the post Tania, very informative and I share many of your views, I'm especially in favour of the indexes describing links contained in that particular section. I just wanted to talk about the above point - in general terms (not specifically about Tania's message). It's an argument often used in support of really big (site map as) navigation systems. Surely, aren't browser bookmarks the mechanism to provide regular users access to deep content, rather than burden occasional users with a sitemap on every page? (Or better yet make a sitemap page :) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] drop down menus - long
On 4 Aug 2005, at 9:56 PM, Frederic Fery wrote: the reference is from 2003, is it likely that people behaviour would have changed since? (ie people more used to fly out?) No. Generally speaking usability is a pretty stable field, it's only the coding techniques that change. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] drop down menus - long
Terrence Wood wrote: Surely, aren't browser bookmarks the mechanism to provide regular users access to deep content, rather than burden occasional users with a sitemap on every page? Interesting. I rarely bookmark an internal page. Often there are many internal pages of a large site (and that's what we're talking about here, generally speaking) that interest me, so I only bookmark the home page (or simply type it into the address bar) and rely on navigation from there. Hopefully the navigation allows me to go from A to B easily. If it doesn't, the site generally loses me as a user... Large sites without dropdowns/flyouts can certainly allow users to go from A to B easily. But they don't always. (Or better yet make a sitemap page :) Site maps *shouldn't* be an or. :-) (My own sites are in dire need of updating in this regard!) Vicki. :-) -- Vicki Berry DistinctiveWeb http://www.distinctiveweb.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] drop down menus - long
That's not quite true ;) As people become more accustomed to websites and web application conventions, their experience with these increases. Intuitiveness is dependent on experience, so the ease of use/intuitiveness also changes. I wouldn't say that something from 2003 is out of date, but there have been definite changes over the past few years in things like familiarity with breadcrumbs (some studies in early 2000 suggested that people neither understood nor used them; more recent studies show the opposite), and willingness to scroll (studies from the late 90s indicated that people wouldn't scroll vertically ;) So human abilities don't change that quickly, but experiences do, and experiences matter when considering general usability and ease of learning. The fact that coding techniques change is a great thing for us usability fellows. Often means that we can offer richer interactions better geared to natural human abilities... Donna On 4 Aug 2005 at 22:32, Terrence Wood wrote: No. Generally speaking usability is a pretty stable field, it's only the coding techniques that change. kind regards Terrence Wood. -- Donna Maurer Maadmob Interaction Design e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: http://maadmob.com.au/ blog: http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/ AOL IM: maadmob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] drop down menus - long
Terrence Wood wrote: Surely, aren't browser bookmarks the mechanism to provide regular users access to deep content, rather than burden occasional users with a sitemap on every page? (Or better yet make a sitemap page :) Tania - not quite sure I understand what you mean by sitemap on every page. I believe every large site should have a sitemap page accessible from anywhere in the site. With browser bookmarks, the repeat users of the site in question have many pages bookmarked but they are also out of the office a lot and access the site a lot in the classroom and workplaces using other people's computers. On 4 Aug 2005, at 9:56 PM, Frederic Fery wrote: the reference is from 2003, is it likely that people behaviour would have changed since? (ie people more used to fly out?) Terrence Wood. No. Generally speaking usability is a pretty stable field, it's only the coding techniques that change. Tania - Generally agree. Usability tools and techniques are fairly stable as is most user behaviour. However, as users become more Internet savvy both myself and others in the field have observed changes in user behaviour. For instance, users have increasingly learnt workarounds to overcome poor usability or common design flaws that used to trip them up in the past. An example of this is scrolling which users are much better at now (users are less likely to miss content now below the fold as long as it is obvious there is more content there). See the resources section of my website for links to articles on menus and information architecture. http://www.peakusability.com.au/resources/informationarchitecture.htm Re more recent articles, I am not aware of any but I will post to usability forums and see if I get any response. Regards Tania Lang Peak Usability Brisbane, Australia [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.peakusability.com.au PH: 0419 732142
Re: [WSG] drop down menus - long
On 4 Aug 2005, at 11:01 PM, Donna Maurer wrote: That's not quite true ;) I did say generally speaking ;-) As people become more accustomed to websites and web application conventions, their experience with these increases. Intuitiveness is dependent on experience, so the ease of use/intuitiveness also changes. agreed... this follows Donald Norman's definition of affordance - we can divine how to use something by it's appearance. But, the usability of breadcrumbs has not changed simply because more people use them... it's just that more people use them. More importantly, they are usually a secondary (read optional) form of navigation (if used as such, and not as 'orientating' devices) that can be ignored if the user doesn't understand their purpose. OTOH, flyout/dropdowns are usually primary navigation devices that present more challenges to a greater number of users for a number of reasons (see John Allsop's earlier messages) and as John pointed out they break users UI expectations (so they have low affordance?). Donna, do you have the results for breadcrumb usage? The latest discussions I found is this one in 2004 with a reference to study in 2003, and some other research: http://psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews/61/breadcrumb.htm of which none suggest more people use breadcrumbs, rather, when they do they complete tasks quicker. This is also a good read: http://www.otal.umd.edu/SHORE2000/webnav/index.html kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] drop down menus - long
On 5 Aug 2005, at 12:16 AM, Tania Lang wrote: Terrence Wood wrote: Surely, aren't browser bookmarks the mechanism to access to deep content, rather than burden occasional users with a sitemap on every page? Tania - not quite sure I understand what you mean by sitemap on every page. I meant a dropdown/flyout menu which provides a link to (almost) every other page on a site - essentially a sitemap on every page instead of a link to a sitemap. With browser bookmarks, the repeat users of the site in question have many pages bookmarked but they are also out of the office a lot and access the site a lot in the classroom and workplaces using other people's computers. I was speaking in generally terms, not specifically with reference to that site, but I'm sure the most usable site's are those that know their real users and provide what the users need =) See the resources section of my website for links to articles on menus and information architecture. http://www.peakusability.com.au/resources/informationarchitecture.htm Thanks for the link kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Drop-down menus using javaScript to navigate and Accessibility Is sues
We are building an internal web application that will be a
portal with multiple application 'modules' from it. We are
building things backwards due to deadlines and a single application module is
being developed at the same time as the enterprise LF and standards, thus
many of the standards are being dictated by the needs of the initial user group
(client). Each module has it's own client base, though some clients
use multiple modules (user authentication login model). The initial
client is very adamant that the "actions", which can be quite
a list, be drop-down menus (as opposed to buttons or links) -
but no GO button. I am basically using the typical js for
this:
function takeaction(form)
{
var
url = "">
window.location.href
= "">
}
select name=actions >
Since we're using middle ware (java back-end) we're
using process pages (pages without any html) to direct to from the drop-downs to
handle whether we need to add in different actions like submit methods, etc.
ADA level 2 compliance is our
enterprise standard we are setting in our official guidelines/standards doc we're
writing simultaneously - with additional level 3 that we can get
approved by the enterprise architect. We've set up an exception process
for when requirements needs a push back from our rulings and neither side will
give. We are setting up the entire portal and all application off of it
(modules) as css tableless design.
How would you suggest handling the requirement of these
navigational/actionable drop-down menus? Additional text links at page
bottom? Is there an accessible script hack? What exactly are all
the issues and arguments? (ok - maybe a bit much to ask...)
Any help would be appreciated.
Susan
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
When a screen resolution is 800 x 600 - what is the Actual width of the browser viewing area (taking the window borders into account). If the page extends beyond the depth of the page and the browser adds a scroll-bar, what is the width of the browser's viewwing area now?? According to Dreamweaver MX it's 760x420... If you want to accommodate pretty much all browsers, you need to aim for 744. This accounts for the Favourites bar in IE4.5 Mac as well as chrome and vertical scroll bar. http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/99/41/index3a_page2.html?tw=design I tend not to worry about IE5 Mac these days, but out of habit, design for 720 as it's nicely divisible by 3 (for 3-col layouts), and then add 10px padding on each side. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
I usually do either 740 or 720 if it's specified in pixels, depending on the type of layout I'm going after. MD On Mar 22, 2004, at 06:34, Andy Budd wrote: When a screen resolution is 800 x 600 - what is the Actual width of the browser viewing area (taking the window borders into account). If the page extends beyond the depth of the page and the browser adds a scroll-bar, what is the width of the browser's viewwing area now?? According to Dreamweaver MX it's 760x420... If you want to accommodate pretty much all browsers, you need to aim for 744. This accounts for the Favourites bar in IE4.5 Mac as well as chrome and vertical scroll bar. I tend not to worry about IE5 Mac these days, but out of habit, design for 720 as it's nicely divisible by 3 (for 3-col layouts), and then add 10px padding on each side. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] drop down menus
I recently had a client who insisted I implement drop-down menus for the navigation on their site, even though I gave them all the reasons why I thought they were unnecessary in their case - and I was wondering what the list's thoughts were on this method of navigation. Personally think that in most cases they are unnecessary. I think a well designed site should present information in a hierarchical fashion, allowing the user to access more detailed info as they progress into the site (while still keeping all parts of the site quickly accessible in two or three clicks). I think the opposite approach, of making every section and subsection available from the homepage via drop-down menus, has the opposite effect to what is intended by confusing the user with masses of choices upfront. What do y'all think? Peter x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerUniversal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
Hi Peter, I feel the same way however I'm working on tidying a variation of drop-down navigation at http://www.amcs.org.au right now and this one does have some benefits. For one since it's just an HTML list it actually places what's almost a site map on every page which should be good for search engine indexing. (Also the fact that's it's a list means it's a lot more easily maintained by volunteers in the future). In this case since it simply expands and closes it doesn't seem to stutter, provide poor mouse focus or obscure content like some do. I do however feel it can be a let out for poorly structured content as it somewhat flattens out the information levels. On the other hand it obviously depends on the type of site and how content needs to be accessed, e.g. whether it's content is more narrative (like say a company brochure type site) or more reference based (like say sitepoint.com). In other words, reading back through that, I'm not sure really! In this case the client did request one and was happy with this solution so... Nick I recently had a client who insisted I implement drop-down menus for the navigation on their site, even though I gave them all the reasons why I thought they were unnecessary in their case - and I was wondering what the list's thoughts were on this method of navigation. Personally think that in most cases they are unnecessary. I think a well designed site should present information in a hierarchical fashion, allowing the user to access more detailed info as they progress into the site (while still keeping all parts of the site quickly accessible in two or three clicks). I think the opposite approach, of making every section and subsection available from the homepage via drop-down menus, has the opposite effect to what is intended by confusing the user with masses of choices upfront. What do y'all think? Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
On Monday, March 22, 2004, at 09:29 AM, Universal Head wrote: I recently had a client who insisted I implement drop-down menus for the navigation on their site, even though I gave them all the reasons why I thought they were unnecessary in their case - and I was wondering what the list's thoughts were on this method of navigation. Personally think that in most cases they are unnecessary. I think a well designed site should present information in a hierarchical fashion, allowing the user to access more detailed info as they progress into the site (while still keeping all parts of the site quickly accessible in two or three clicks). I think the opposite approach, of making every section and subsection available from the homepage via drop-down menus, has the opposite effect to what is intended by confusing the user with masses of choices upfront. What do y'all think? They're generally unnecessary, unless the client wants them, in which case they're necessary :) On a more serious note, they do allow for navigation though a hierarchy of content MUCH faster than viewing 2-4 pages of sub menus before finding what you want. MUCH FASTER. It also allows for an overview of an entire section (like the contents page of a book) without making a single click. And whether the UI model of hierarchical menus is sound or not, people are FAMILIAR WITH THEM, because of Apple and Microsoft's long standing use of them in MacOS and Windows. As long as you make them behave like Windows Mac menus and keep the terms short and clear, you should be fine. I don't think they overwhelm the user at all, again, because the information is organised in small bite-size chunks. To sound like a broken record, they work for MS and Apple and their billions of users everyday, so they'll probably work for your client too :) --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] drop down menus
Title: Message Here is a site with accessible menus http://www.udm4.com/ I was going to recommend this drop down menu that I have used - www.brainjar.com -as it gives a real windows look and feel (if that is what the client is after) except thatone looks better as it works in IE 5.01, which the brainjar one doesn't.
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
a drop down menu is like a site map on every page... which could actually be quite helpful. I used to loathe them but I'm being turned around as I realise that like flash, my hate was caused by too many poor implementations rather than a flawed concept to begin with * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] drop down menus
Title: Message Hello, I have just joined the group and I must say I have enjoyed the posts I have read through so far today (being the first day of membership and all). I hail from across the sea in Portland, Oregon and even y'all are Aussie's (one could say that is far better than beinga Kiwi but we won't go there) I have yet to find a similiar group here in the States. Anyway, thanks again for allowing me to come on board. If I may toss out a very elementary question that escapes me and I have not been able to find an answer to. When a screen resolution is 800 x 600 - what is the Actual width of the browser viewing area (taking the window borders into account). If the page extends beyond the depth of the page and the browser adds a scroll-bar, what is the width of the browser's viewwing area now?? Thanks a bunch and forgive me if this is somewhere out there, I just have not been able to find the answers. Brian From: Matthew Magain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 4:36 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] drop down menus Here is a site with accessible menus http://www.udm4.com/ I was going to recommend this drop down menu that I have used - www.brainjar.com -as it gives a real windows look and feel (if that is what the client is after) except thatone looks better as it works in IE 5.01, which the brainjar one doesn't.
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
On Mar 21, 2004, at 5:08 PM, theGrafixGuy wrote: When a screen resolution is 800 x 600 - what is the Actual width of the browser viewing area (taking the window borders into account). If the page extends beyond the depth of the page and the browser adds a scroll-bar, what is the width of the browser's viewwing area now?? According to Dreamweaver MX it's 760x420... * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
Although menus have obvious benefits in access to a large number of items, I'm not sure that they translate well to web navigation. Outside of a web page, drop-down menus are used for function points, not navigation: change text size, cut, copy, view source, etc. They're one-off actions that don't require you to reference them once you've used them. Navigation on a web site needs to be more persistent -- you like to know where everything is, where you are, where you've been; not have hidden surprises. With a menu system you would have to duplicate navigational elements in order to achieve this information. Additionally, drop-downs in applications work because you use the program regularly and you know where everything is -- it's essentially a shortcut mechanism. If your site isn't aimed at getting long-use, repeat traffic, and you don't have a whole lot of areas on the site, then drop downs probably hinder, as they take a while to explore and get used to. -- Cameron Adams W: www.themaninblue.com --- Universal Head [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I recently had a client who insisted I implement drop-down menus for the navigation on their site, even though I gave them all the reasons why I thought they were unnecessary in their case - and I was wondering what the list's thoughts were on this method of navigation. Personally think that in most cases they are unnecessary. I think a well designed site should present information in a hierarchical fashion, allowing the user to access more detailed info as they progress into the site (while still keeping all parts of the site quickly accessible in two or three clicks). I think the opposite approach, of making every section and subsection available from the homepage via drop-down menus, has the opposite effect to what is intended by confusing the user with masses of choices upfront. What do y'all think? Peter Universal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
Hi Brian, Welcome to the list! How wide is each browser's viewport when set to 800x600? I know one way to find out. Here is a link to screen shots of 20 different browsers: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=38651 You could (if you were incredibly keen) click on each thumbnail and see how each browser operates in 800x600 mode. You could even measure the actual viewport in each case. Would be hours of fun! :) BTW, the WSG list is international. While there is a strong Aussie contingent, it is not the majority. Right now we have 435 members from 33 countries (still waiting for an Antarctic member!). We are always keen to help set up WSG meeting in other cities (any country). We recently got our second city up and running with meetings and we hope to have a few more running this year. If any member wants to discuss setting up WSG meetings in their city, email us offlist ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Thanks Russ Hello, I have just joined the group and I must say I have enjoyed the posts I have read through so far today (being the first day of membership and all). I hail from across the sea in Portland, Oregon and even y'all are Aussie's (one could say that is far better than being a Kiwi but we won't go there) I have yet to find a similiar group here in the States. Anyway, thanks again for allowing me to come on board. If I may toss out a very elementary question that escapes me and I have not been able to find an answer to. When a screen resolution is 800 x 600 - what is the Actual width of the browser viewing area (taking the window borders into account). If the page extends beyond the depth of the page and the browser adds a scroll-bar, what is the width of the browser's viewwing area now?? Thanks a bunch and forgive me if this is somewhere out there, I just have not been able to find the answers. Brian From: Matthew Magain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 4:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] drop down menus Here is a site with accessible menus http://www.udm4.com/ http://www.udm4.com/ I was going to recommend this drop down menu that I have used - www.brainjar.com http://www.brainjar.com - as it gives a real windows look and feel (if that is what the client is after) except that one looks better as it works in IE 5.01, which the brainjar one doesn't. Thanks Russ --- Russ Weakley Max Design Phone: (02) 9410 2521 Mobile: 0403 433 980 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.maxdesign.com.au --- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] drop down menus - OT
Title: Message It pays not to make sweeping statements about nationalities. You can't guarantee that everybody is Aussie. -Original Message-From: theGrafixGuy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 22 March 2004 12:09 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] drop down menus Hello, I have just joined the group and I must say I have enjoyed the posts I have read through so far today (being the first day of membership and all). I hail from across the sea in Portland, Oregon and even y'all are Aussie's (one could say that is far better than beinga Kiwi but we won't go there) I have yet to find a similiar group here in the States. Anyway, thanks again for allowing me to come on board. If I may toss out a very elementary question that escapes me and I have not been able to find an answer to. When a screen resolution is 800 x 600 - what is the Actual width of the browser viewing area (taking the window borders into account). If the page extends beyond the depth of the page and the browser adds a scroll-bar, what is the width of the browser's viewwing area now?? Thanks a bunch and forgive me if this is somewhere out there, I just have not been able to find the answers. Brian From: Matthew Magain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 4:36 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] drop down menus Here is a site with accessible menus http://www.udm4.com/ I was going to recommend this drop down menu that I have used - www.brainjar.com -as it gives a real windows look and feel (if that is what the client is after) except thatone looks better as it works in IE 5.01, which the brainjar one doesn't. This e-mail is solely for the named addressee and may be confidential. You should only read, disclose, transmit, copy, distribute, act in reliance on or commercialise the contents if you are authorised to do so. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, please notify [EMAIL PROTECTED] by e-mail immediately, or notify the sender and then destroy any copy of this message. Views expressed in this e-mail are those of the individual sender, except where specifically stated to be those of an officer of Museum Victoria. Museum Victoria does not represent, warrant or guarantee that the integrity of this communication has been maintained nor that it is free from errors, virus or interference.
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
Hi Peter, The problem with this method is that it confuses the user. I looked at this site last night with your previous problem and was very surprised by the action when I clicked on About AMCS. Clicking on a navbar item should do what all other navbars do, take you to the page. Visually, you can see that the menu changed and nothing more but if you're not looking at the screen you assume you have gone to the about page. These things really should be done in a hover or onmouseover state so that a click follows the link. Same with keyboard operation (tabbing through and hitting enter). I partly agree with you, I used this... http://www.gazingus.org/html/Using_Lists_for_DHTML_Menus.html ...and decided I'd get in in place first before fiddling too much. Though I'm not sure the onmouseover reaction is necessarily a good idea, personally I find many of those menus a little off putting too especially if there is a lag. Certainly I need to look into it as I'm using it in an admin area and it's action is a little odd there. I think having the +/- or arrows found in outliners is one solution, i.e. splitting the folding and action of the link into separate elements. How would a screen reader cope with this? You followed a link and then you've gone nowhere. In fact in my tests with Lynx the menu functions fine so I'm guessing (big ?) a screen reader would to. Note if you turn off javascript that in fact the activating link simply reverts to being a link to the overview page (In Opera Mac however this all fails!). All of the items in that navigation list are linked they just change their action depending on the support of javascript. BTW I really love the swell banner on http://www.underwater.com.au/ Actually, I have to pass the credit for the initial idea of that to another design firm http://www.nextwave.com.au . I simply restyled and updated it recently. Thanks for commenting, Nick * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
Peter From an interface building POV it's a matter of audience function. If your site has reference-based informational content and caters to a large percentage of users who need this information and time is important to them, then one-click popup menus are necessary. However, as a artistic designer, I don't like them and prefer an alternative such as hierarchical rollover menus. And they can be done using CSS only methods. Leo On Sunday, March 21, 2004, at 05:29 PM, Universal Head wrote: Personally think that in most cases they are unnecessary. I think a well designed site should present information in a hierarchical fashion, allowing the user to access more detailed info as they progress into the site (while still keeping all parts of the site quickly accessible in two or three clicks). I think the opposite approach, of making every section and subsection available from the homepage via drop-down menus, has the opposite effect to what is intended by confusing the user with masses of choices upfront. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
On Sunday, March 21, 2004, at 08:08 PM, theGrafixGuy wrote: and even y'all are Aussie's This list might be based in AU but it is international. Like myself (New York) there are over 50 members in the USA represented on this list. Leo
RE: [WSG] drop down menus
Hey I wasn't meaning anything by saying y'all are Aussie's! I was simply acknowledging the Aussie origination of the group and the Kiwi proximity with out resorting to "baa-aa-aad" jokes relating to sheep. Additionally, my typing faster than my eyes could catch the missed letters, led to only part of the message being sent and a blowing of the hoped to be humorous intro. Oh well such is life :-/ we can only make fools of ourselves :-D Mind you,I don't hold anything against the Kiwi's. Like us Oregonians, they (for the most part) tend to be a little more sensitive to issues regardingtheir environment thanmost and is whyKiwis and Oregoniansare often seen asTreehuggers. Anyway, this is completely off topic so let us end this side topic of a baa-aa-aad joke gone awryhere... Responses to the original question are appreciated though! And thanks to those who have posted replies already... The 760 px width seems a little narrow, but I have been burned on 790 and 784so that is why I asked the question. Brian From: Leo J. O'Campo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 7:59 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] drop down menus On Sunday, March 21, 2004, at 08:08 PM, theGrafixGuy wrote: and even y'all are Aussie'sThis list might be based in AU but it is international. Like myself (New York) there are over 50 members in the USA represented on this list.Leo
