RE: [ZION] Dungeons and Dragons
-Cousin Bill- It decided I would be a Chaotic Good Half-Elf Bard. -JWR- I'm a neutral, good, human, fighter, ranger. I'm a confused bipolar half-Romulan smuggler accountant. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Introducing John W. Redelfs
Jon Spencer wrote: My wife hopes to retire in about three years. We hope to serve missions for the Church if our health permits. In the meantime, I'll prepare for my mission with scripture and gospel study, and by continuing to run these email lists. So, whose going to take over the email list when you bug out (on your mission in three years)? I haven't been thinking that far down the road, Jon. I'm sure there will be some acceptable solution to the problem. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] This is I (sorry that I kin speekee the English)
Jon Spencer wrote: Children: 2 David - 17 - leaves 4/14/2004 for Fort Benning - Basic/AIT, then jump school, then RIP (Ranger Indoctrination Program), then Ranger training, then probably the Middle East, then Special Farces if he gets his way. == Grampa Bill comments: If after RIP and Ranger Training, he actually joins the Rangers, and if he makes the First Ranger Battalion (There are three, but all our local Rangers assure me that the First is the best.), he might pass through Savannah from time to time. Have him look up old Grampa Bill in the First Ward (There are three.) I'll take him out and buy him a twenty ounce Porterhouse somewhere. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Dungeons and Dragons
I am a Neutral Good Elf Barbarian BTW, there are also personality tests out there for Star Trek personalities, MM, muppets, XMen and cartoon villains. Here are a few links: http://www.geocities.com/windowkachan/personality/dbz/ http://www.roxydoll.com/~erin/quiz/ http://startrek.about.com/library/weekly/aa080201.htm http://mewing.net/cryquiz.html http://www.geraldfield.com/cgi-bin/unofficial/quizzes/sfesurvey.cgi?whatm uppetareyou http://www.mutedfaith.com/quiz/vq.htm http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~alyssa13/xmen/ K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sons of perdition
I don't think a person needs to necessarily see God with his mortal eyes. But the Holy Spirit's witness must be so strong as to totally remove all doubt. Joseph Smith once said that we must look directly at the Sun and say it does not exist; to give an idea of what it means to deny the Holy Ghost. That tells me that most of us who have experienced the converting power of the Holy Ghost just have not received it strongly enough to know for certain. And I include myself in that group. I just haven't received a strong enough witness to become a son of perdition, if I were to choose right now to rebel totally against God. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. JWR: Gerald Smith wrote: I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition. You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel. I agree with this, but what does it mean to have the heavens opened up, and know God? Can a person gain a perfect knowledge so that faith is dormant by the witness of the Holy Ghost alone? Or does he actually have to see the face of God? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Introducing Gary Smith
Okay, here's my bio: Born in 1959 in Spokane Washington. Son of Ken and Antonia Smith. He was born in Hailey Idaho, she in Dickinson ND. His ancestry is mostly British/Scot. Hers is entirely German-Russian Catholics. Raised most of my life in/near Missoula Montana, I grew up with my 3 brothers and 4 sisters in an extremely inactive family. LDS friends of mine introduced me to the Church in 1975, and I was baptized Dec 20th of that year. Within a year, I was absorbing LDS scriptures, having read the Book of Mormon, DC, New Testament and a Marvelous Work and a Wonder in that timeframe. Served my mission to Bolivia from Dec 1978-80. I converted hundreds of thousands of the people there, it's just that most of them don't realize it, yet. ;-) Returned, moved to Salt Lake City, Holladay area. Married Laura Thurber in Feb 82, within a couple months, she got bored with me and we were quickly into family counseling. Left for the Air Force in Oct 82, with her filing for divorce while I was in Basic Training and Tech School. Survived Air Force Law Enforcement and K9 training. Divorced finalized on my first day at my first assignment in Fort Worth Texas (Carswell AFB). Worked with patrol and explosive detection dogs there. In 1985, sent to Korea for a year, where I guarded the base's fence line from invasions. I was very successful, as no North Korean attacks occurred at my base during my 12 month stint there. While in Korea, I started writing an old friend, Ramona Jackson. We sent photos of ourselves to each other (crossed in the mail), and both had a strong Holy Spirit-like feeling that we should see more of each other, upon seeing the photos. Returned home in Feb 86, spent two weeks in SLC, where my parents and family had migrated to and become active. Then went to Indianapolis to visit Ramona. In one week, we were engaged. I went to Mississippi for 6 weeks for cross training into computers, and then was assigned to Gunter Air Force Station, Montgomery AL in June. Ramona and I tied the Celestial knot in the Chicago temple on August 16, 1986; and I moved her and her three kids down with me. The Air Force left me at Gunter for the next 16.5 years working in the computer field, until I retired on Nov 1, 2002. We spent a couple months selling our home and visiting family, then moved to Indianapolis in January of this year. All three kids are grown. Aaron is married with 5 kids, in the Air Force in Las Vegas (Explosives Ordnance Disposal expert). Michal, our daughter, is married in Montgomery; her husband photographs genealogy records there for the Church. Our youngest, John, returned from his Alaskan mission in Oct 2002, and has been working since. He has had two experiences I have not yet had the experience to have: meet John Redelfs and taste Esperanza's cooking. I am now working as an office manager for an LDS owned company that makes components for race cars (mostly Indy and Nascar). So, when your favorite driver crosses the finish line, chances are we've made his oil pump, exhaust, or hubs. We purchased an older 1935 home, two blocks from Ramona's brother, who is bishop here in Plainfield. I have 4 years until I'm in danger of that bishop calling-thingy. I am the 11 year old scout leader, and Ramona teaches 4 year old Primary. Previous callings: Bishopric (2x), Stake Mission Presidency (2x), Ward mission leader (3x), stake clerk (2x), ward clerk, ward exec secretary, Melchizedek Priesthood Group Leader, YM President, choir director. My favorite church calling experiences: in the choirs for the Korean and Birmingham AL temple dedications; and Leader for the new group (now branch) in Tuskegee AL. Ordained an elder in 1978, and a high priest in 1989. Hobbies: Reading (gospel, history, science, some fiction); walking/biking; Internet. I'm also a hat wearer, only started wearing ball caps in the last 6 years. My favorite hat right now is my Boy Scout fedora, one of several I've owned over the years. I've been on the Internet since 1986, and was an active member of some early LDS email lists, like: Morm-Ant (run by Bill Hamblin, prof at BYU). I was one of Zion's first members, as JWR , I and a few others tired of the anti-Mormon attacks found at Mormon-L. I was the list co-owner for a time, until early this year when I left for a break, due to the direction this list was going. I decided, with the death of my dear friend Marc Schindler, to return, so I could enjoy the presence of JWR, Val, Stephen, Steven, Tom, Scott, Ron, David, and many others that I've come to know as close friends over the many years. I have met a few Zion members over the years, including Tom Valleta, Scott and Doug McGee, Dave Kenison and Dave Crockett, Tami Reber (who is like a kid sister to me that I haven't heard from in years), Heidi, etc. I look forward to meeting those in the Indiana/Midwest area. What I would love, is for us to plan a Nauvoo reunion get-together next summer. Meet on a Saturday, go
[ZION] Thrift!
My wife drives a 1995 Ford Ranger that we bought for $5500 3 years ago. When they checked our credit worthiness, the dealer asked us if we wouldn't rather buy one of the new $30,000 trucks instead. I explained to him that's why my credit was so good. My car is a 1995 Saturn. I bought it almost 2 years ago for $1500, with 200K miles on it. It now has $240K miles on it and still running great. I think my next car might be a Saturn, also. The most I've spent on a car was $10K for a 93 Ford Tempo w/11K miles and a 3 year warranty. I don't think I'll ever spend that much on a car again. The least expensive car I've owned was a 1961 Karman Ghia that my Dad bought for my 18th birthday for me from my great uncle's estate for $50. We sold it for $350 on my mission. My favorite car was my MGB. Baby blue with racing stripe and top down. Man, it was fun driving around Forth Worth in that thing. Of course, when it broke down (which was often), it cost an arm and a leg to get it fixed. There just aren't parts for them, nor are there many mechanics who understand British auto technology. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Thrift!
I'll be glad to take it off your hands--in ten or fifteen years, after it
has depreciated sufficiently grin.
--
Steven Montgomery
At 06:15 PM 11/8/2003, you wrote:
Kent suggests:
I bought a brand new Ford 150 for $32,000 (more than the price of my first
house $24,000) and have to pay $530 a month for the next six years... I
may not be able to work long enough to pay it off {8^).
Steven Montgomery wrote:
Hello fellow Zionistas,
A little more than eight years ago we (My wife and I, and actually it was
mostly my wife's idea) purchased an old 1979 Ford Pickup with a fairly
new engine for $800.00. The pickup was used quite often, to get me to and
from work, and for various and sundry hauling projects. Other than new
tires, a new battery, a new fan belt, and changing the oil occasionally,
absolutely nothing was done to the pickup--not even a tune-up grin. It
was a lean mean hauling machine.
Well, the other day I traded it for an almost brand new EZ3-Trike (A 21
speed recumbent trike which can go faster than a mountain bike. My kids
can't ride a regular bike so we were looking for various types of trikes
that they could ride) worth $750.00. Which means that after using the
pickup for more than eight years we sold it for only $50.00 less than we
what we bought it for. How's that for thrift? Anyone else have similar
thrift stories to tell?
--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
But where some say is the king of America? I´ll tell you Friend, he
reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the royal brute of
Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly
honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let
it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a
crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we
approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute
governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be
King; and there ought to be no other. (Thomas Paine, _Common Sense_)
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RE: [ZION] Dungeons and Dragons
At 09:29 PM 11/8/2003, you wrote: If you want to know whos King, whos God in America, look at your checkbook. Pax et Bonum, John A.E., n/OEF I never get a chance to--my wife always has it grin. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] A Question for George
I fully agree. I'm sure everyone tries to avoid it but it happens nevertheless. Stacy. At 07:21 AM 11/05/2003 -0700, you wrote: Why would you bring up specifically this book? All of the sunday school manuals are correlated, therefore all could pass the same test you offer - could they not? As an aside of a general comment and observation. I had a discussion with a friend who was not only on the committe that writes and reviews the manuals and his comment was that there was a bit of false, or at least questionalbe, tradition present in some of the manuals - take it for what it is worth. The more important questions would be - in the sunday school classes of the church is there any false doctrine taught using the manuals as the basis for the discussion. To that I would reply with a unqualified and strong YES there is false doctrine taught in the sunday schools of the church - even with good manuals. Now if you have a specific question about a specific book then I will be happy to discuss it. But I have not the time right now to review this book. Is there something specific you would challenge? George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:09 PM Subject: [ZION] A Question for George The book GOSPEL PRINCIPLES is the correlated manual for the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Primarily, it elaborates upon and reinforces those things that new investigators were taught as official Church doctrine by our missionaries. I have a question for George: George, do you think there is any false doctrine in GOSPEL PRINCIPLES? If you do, I'd like to discuss the teachings that you disagree with. I personally believe every word in that book. It is fundamental, basic, foundational Mormon doctrine. Furthermore, it is official. What do I mean by official? I mean it has passed the test of correlation by a committee that includes men I sustain every six months as prophets, seers and revelators. I don't believe there is anything in that book that all 15 of our prophets fail to agree on. And while the General Conference of the Church has not voted upon GOSPEL PRINCIPLES, it has sustained 15 prophets, seers and revelators every six months. I believe it is a false statement that there is very little official Church doctrine. The problem in this Church isn't that there is so little official doctrine, but that so few members know it very well, and so many of them believe a lot of other foolishness. Well, good doctrine drives out bad, and vice versa. We are not free to just believe whatever we want. Whatever we believe has to be in harmony with true, ie. correct doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
This I find to be true and it makes sense when we consider that even in the early church they would be able to excommunicate members for offenses. Finally, there is the clear reference to Esau as being hated by God. Even if this means loved less, isn't that conditional? I forget the reference. Stacy. At 08:14 PM 11/04/2003 -0800, you wrote: On Nov 4, 2003, at 7:47 PM, George Cobabe wrote: Ron, You may be right. As a matter of fact I agree with you. However, Elder Nelson does not. He says that God's love is conditional upon righteousness. I think this is a difficult point. Certain aspects of God's love are without question unconditional. For example, everyone is resurrected, no matter how badly they flunk the test of mortality. It's also interesting that even those in the Telestial Kingdom receive some degree of glory. On the other hand, it is possible to get the Lord very angry with you. Martin Harris comes to mind, for example. He failed to keep his covenants, and it was a long time before the Lord forgave him. Martin lost many of the blessings he otherwise would have had had he properly maintained the 118 pages, but his repentance was sincere. He was then permitted to hear the voice of God and see an angel. It's also true that there is a limited number of times one can repent of adultery. Clearly the atonement is not a blank check to commit sin. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] A Question for George
As a convert I was taken aback by Gospel Principles and felt I had been dropped into an alien world. Were it not for the people fellowshipping me I probably would have left. Stacy. At 06:09 PM 11/04/2003 -0900, you wrote: The book GOSPEL PRINCIPLES is the correlated manual for the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Primarily, it elaborates upon and reinforces those things that new investigators were taught as official Church doctrine by our missionaries. I have a question for George: George, do you think there is any false doctrine in GOSPEL PRINCIPLES? If you do, I'd like to discuss the teachings that you disagree with. I personally believe every word in that book. It is fundamental, basic, foundational Mormon doctrine. Furthermore, it is official. What do I mean by official? I mean it has passed the test of correlation by a committee that includes men I sustain every six months as prophets, seers and revelators. I don't believe there is anything in that book that all 15 of our prophets fail to agree on. And while the General Conference of the Church has not voted upon GOSPEL PRINCIPLES, it has sustained 15 prophets, seers and revelators every six months. I believe it is a false statement that there is very little official Church doctrine. The problem in this Church isn't that there is so little official doctrine, but that so few members know it very well, and so many of them believe a lot of other foolishness. Well, good doctrine drives out bad, and vice versa. We are not free to just believe whatever we want. Whatever we believe has to be in harmony with true, ie. correct doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Whom God hateth
Maybe it got lost in the translation. Stacy. At 03:15 AM 11/05/2003 +, you wrote: -JWR- I went looking for some scriptural evidence that God ever hates any of his children, and my cursory survey did not turn up anything. Am I missing something? Surely God hates wickedness, but does he hate the wicked? He hates sin, but does he hate sinners? Perhaps you could point me to some scripture where the object of God's hatred---and yes I do believe in a God who hates---is a person rather than a concept or behavior. The one that came to mind was Helaman 15:4: But behold my brethren, the Lamanites hath he [God] hated because their deeds have been evil continually, and this because of the iniquity of the tradition of their fathers. Malachi employs the same type of usage in Malachi 1:2-3 (cited in Romans 9:13): I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. I also found a proverb (Proverbs 6:16) and two psalms (Psalm 5:5 and Psalm 11:5) that speak of the Lord hating the wicked. This last psalm is particularly interesting, because there is a Joseph Smith translation of it that reaffirms the Lord's hatred of the wicked and those who love violence: JST Psalm 11:5: Behold his eyelids shall try the children of men, and he shall redeem the righteous, and they shall be tried. The Lord loveth the righteous, but the wicked, and him that loveth violence, his soul hateth. The context can be seen from reading the psalm from the beginning; Joseph retranslated verses 1-5, which can be read on page 800 in the JST section in the back of the LDS edition of the Bible. God's love is so far above our mortal idea of love, so much greater, deeper, and more encompassing, that even calling it love is but a faint echo of its reality. But we do the best we can with the tools (words, in this case) that we have. Similarly, God's hatred is far beyond our petty mortal ideas of hatred, so much stronger, deeper, and more powerful, that hatred probably does not begin to describe the Godly emotion being portrayed. Still, God has seen fit to represent his feeling as hatred, so I don't think we have much business telling him he's wrong. In any case, I don't find God's hatred of the wicked to be a particularly ennobling concept, so I don't spend much time dwelling on it. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
