Re: [9fans] troll paper

[Edouard Klein]

I'll add that it takes a special brand of courage to ask "Why has
everything got to be a file" in front of a Plan 9 crowd ;)

The off-track discussions with Daniel were enlightening. I think his
perspective on "NoT" is quite valuable, and has inspired some ideas
since I got back.


ron minnich  writes:

> The  author of the paper not only helped get the conference going this year, 
> he worked hard this and last year to make sure our youtube channel worked. He 
> also has done a lot of work
> to get faculty from U. Bamberg in Germany on board. The author was a major 
> part of making IWP9 2024 go so well.
> 
> He's also done a lot to get the Unix version of the cpu command as good as it 
> is today.
> 
> I think there is a place for a slightly off the wall talk like this.
> 
> Don't like it? Don't watch it. Want talks more to your liking? Look for the 
> next CFP for IWP9, and please contribute something! I'm looking forward to it.
> 
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 3:05 AM Anthony Martin  wrote:
> 
> "Do we really have to have our own kernel? What are
> the benefits?" ...
> 
> The IWP9 paper titled "centre, left and right" looks like
> a complete troll. Was it generated by an LLM? I read the
> whole thing and it was a waste of time. Zero stars, would
> not recommend.
> 
> Institutional Academy of the Academic Institute, lol.
> 
> The vetting process needs some work, lads.
> 
> Cheers,
>   Anthony
> 
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[ron minnich]

The  author of the paper not only helped get the conference going this
year, he worked hard this and last year to make sure our youtube channel
worked. He also has done a lot of work to get faculty from U. Bamberg in
Germany on board. The author was a major part of making IWP9 2024 go so
well.

He's also done a lot to get the Unix version of the cpu command as good as
it is today.

I think there is a place for a slightly off the wall talk like this.

Don't like it? Don't watch it. Want talks more to your liking? Look for the
next CFP for IWP9, and please contribute something! I'm looking forward to
it.


On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 3:05 AM Anthony Martin  wrote:

> "Do we really have to have our own kernel? What are
> the benefits?" ...
> 
> The IWP9 paper titled "centre, left and right" looks like
> a complete troll. Was it generated by an LLM? I read the
> whole thing and it was a waste of time. Zero stars, would
> not recommend.
> 
> Institutional Academy of the Academic Institute, lol.
> 
> The vetting process needs some work, lads.
> 
> Cheers,
>   Anthony

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[Charles Forsyth]

Briefly, no. It's a constraint language, and it happens to be able to
produce yaml etc as a side-process.
I've used it to enforce constraints in a tax application. "Enforce"
understates what actually can be done.

On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 at 20:31, G B via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:

> Isn't Cue YACL (Yet Another Configuration Language)? Absolutely no way one
> can deprecate YAML and just use Cue, so all one is doing essentially is
> adding one more thing to learn and keep updated. And since it hasn't
> released 1.0, what happens if the new YACL never materializes but was
> adopted? Good luck ripping that out to return to YAML.
>
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2024 at 09:26:28 AM CDT, Charles Forsyth <
> charles.fors...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Although cue itself is more generally useful, applied that way it's a
> coping mechanism that indeed doesn't address the fundamental point:
> like those Sendmail configuration languages that compiled down into the
> rewrite language instead of just replacing that.
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 at 15:19,  wrote:
>
> Quoth Charles Forsyth :
> >
> > it's been a little while since i first looked at it, but i think one of
> the
> > example application is exactly how one might use it to avoid 80k lines of
> > yaml that you must look at directly.
> 
> while it may help -- this is just stacking complexity on top of
> complexity.
> 
> kubernetes may be a tool that some of us need to deal with for
> our jobs, but it has no place in a well designed rethink of the
> world.
> 
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
>  + participants
>  + delivery options
>  Permalink
> 

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[G B via 9fans]

 Isn't Cue YACL (Yet Another Configuration Language)? Absolutely no way one can 
deprecate YAML and just use Cue, so all one is doing essentially is adding one 
more thing to learn and keep updated. And since it hasn't released 1.0, what 
happens if the new YACL never materializes but was adopted? Good luck ripping 
that out to return to YAML.

On Tuesday, April 16, 2024 at 09:26:28 AM CDT, Charles Forsyth 
 wrote:  
 
 Although cue itself is more generally useful, applied that way it's a coping 
mechanism that indeed doesn't address the fundamental point:like those Sendmail 
configuration languages that compiled down into the rewrite language instead of 
just replacing that.

On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 at 15:19,  wrote:

Quoth Charles Forsyth :
> 
> it's been a little while since i first looked at it, but i think one of the
> example application is exactly how one might use it to avoid 80k lines of
> yaml that you must look at directly.

while it may help -- this is just stacking complexity on top of
complexity.

kubernetes may be a tool that some of us need to deal with for
our jobs, but it has no place in a well designed rethink of the
world.


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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[Charles Forsyth]

Although cue itself is more generally useful, applied that way it's a
coping mechanism that indeed doesn't address the fundamental point:
like those Sendmail configuration languages that compiled down into the
rewrite language instead of just replacing that.


On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 at 15:19,  wrote:

> Quoth Charles Forsyth :
> >
> > it's been a little while since i first looked at it, but i think one of
> the
> > example application is exactly how one might use it to avoid 80k lines of
> > yaml that you must look at directly.
> 
> while it may help -- this is just stacking complexity on top of
> complexity.
> 
> kubernetes may be a tool that some of us need to deal with for
> our jobs, but it has no place in a well designed rethink of the
> world.
> 

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[Bakul Shah via 9fans]

On Apr 15, 2024, at 1:50 PM, Charles Forsyth  wrote:
> 
> And, if I hear about it being
> “declarative” as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (and
> growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend.
> 
> You might find help in culang.org

Not sure how much the Cue language will help when the
underlying model of Kubernetes is quite complex (pods,
containers, deployments, nodes, schedulers, controllers,
clusters, services, load balancing, tasks, kubelets,
kube-proxies, api-servers, multi-tenancy, replicas,
namespaces and so on). May be all you can do is push this
complexity around but not conquer it.

In any new design, at the start you often overbuild
because you don't quite know what will work but soon you
have to sense what is scaffolding and can be removed vs
what is essential and must be left in.
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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[ori]

Quoth Charles Forsyth :
> 
> it's been a little while since i first looked at it, but i think one of the
> example application is exactly how one might use it to avoid 80k lines of
> yaml that you must look at directly.

while it may help -- this is just stacking complexity on top of
complexity.

kubernetes may be a tool that some of us need to deal with for
our jobs, but it has no place in a well designed rethink of the
world.


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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[Charles Forsyth]

it's been a little while since i first looked at it, but i think one of the
example application is exactly how one might use it to avoid 80k lines of
yaml that you must look at directly.

On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 at 05:30,  wrote:

> Taj Khattra  wrote:
>
> > > > You might find help in culang.org
> > >
> > > DNS can't seem to find that for me 
> >
> > https://cuelang.org/
> 
> Much thanks!
> 
> Arnold

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[arnold]

Taj Khattra  wrote:

> > > You might find help in culang.org
> >
> > DNS can't seem to find that for me 
>
> https://cuelang.org/

Much thanks!

Arnold

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[Charles Forsyth]

yes, sorry, mistyped on a phone

On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 at 04:24,  wrote:

> Charles Forsyth  wrote:
>
> > >  And, if I hear about it being
> > > “declarative” as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (and
> > > growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend.
> >
> >
> > You might find help in culang.org
> 
> DNS can't seem to find that for me 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Arnold

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[Taj Khattra]

>
>
> > You might find help in culang.org
>
> DNS can't seem to find that for me 
>

https://cuelang.org/

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[arnold]

Charles Forsyth  wrote:

> >  And, if I hear about it being
> > “declarative” as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (and
> > growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend.
>
>
> You might find help in culang.org

DNS can't seem to find that for me 

Thanks,

Arnold

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[michaelian ennis]

 cuelang.org rather On Apr 15, 2024, at 13:51, Charles Forsyth  wrote: And, if I hear about it being“declarative” as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (andgrowing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend.You might find help in culang.org On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 at 20:49, Kim Shrier  wrote:> On Apr 12, 2024, at 4:56 AM, David Arnold  wrote:
> 
>> The vetting process needs some work, lads.
> 
> More heresy than trolling, perhaps?
> 
> It was thought-provoking for me.  I wished I was there for the bar session afterwards. 
> 
> d
It didn’t read like a troll paper to me.  I periodically go through
a similar exercise of thinking about how I would re-evaluate
various Plan 9 decisions given the environment we find
ourselves in, more than 35 years after the original work
was done.
I do have an answer to the question, “Do we really have to
have our own kernel?”.
Yes.
Making decisions about fundamental principles upon which
you build your system has profound impacts on every aspect
of the software, including the kernel itself.  Linux is not a good
substitute for Plan 9.
And, I take particular exception to recommending Kubernetes
as a tool for deploying services.  I am having to live through
Kubernetes hell in my day job.  And, if I hear about it being
“declarative” as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (and
growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend.
I do think it is a good exercise to reevaluate the premises on
which one builds their systems in order to see if something
needs to change or a completely different approach is
warranted.
I just come to different conclusions than the author of this
paper.
Kim
_
C++ is an off-by-one error
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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[Charles Forsyth]

>
>  And, if I hear about it being
> “declarative” as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (and
> growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend.


You might find help in culang.org

On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 at 20:49, Kim Shrier  wrote:

> > On Apr 12, 2024, at 4:56 AM, David Arnold  wrote:
> >
> >> The vetting process needs some work, lads.
> >
> > More heresy than trolling, perhaps?
> >
> > It was thought-provoking for me.  I wished I was there for the bar
> session afterwards.
> >
> > d
> 
> It didn’t read like a troll paper to me.  I periodically go through
> a similar exercise of thinking about how I would re-evaluate
> various Plan 9 decisions given the environment we find
> ourselves in, more than 35 years after the original work
> was done.
> 
> I do have an answer to the question, “Do we really have to
> have our own kernel?”.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Making decisions about fundamental principles upon which
> you build your system has profound impacts on every aspect
> of the software, including the kernel itself.  Linux is not a good
> substitute for Plan 9.
> 
> And, I take particular exception to recommending Kubernetes
> as a tool for deploying services.  I am having to live through
> Kubernetes hell in my day job.  And, if I hear about it being
> “declarative” as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (and
> growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend.
> 
> I do think it is a good exercise to reevaluate the premises on
> which one builds their systems in order to see if something
> needs to change or a completely different approach is
> warranted.
> 
> I just come to different conclusions than the author of this
> paper.
> 
> Kim
> _
> C++ is an off-by-one error
> 

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[Kim Shrier]

> On Apr 12, 2024, at 4:56 AM, David Arnold  wrote:
> 
>> The vetting process needs some work, lads.
> 
> More heresy than trolling, perhaps?
> 
> It was thought-provoking for me.  I wished I was there for the bar session 
> afterwards. 
> 
> d

It didn’t read like a troll paper to me.  I periodically go through
a similar exercise of thinking about how I would re-evaluate
various Plan 9 decisions given the environment we find
ourselves in, more than 35 years after the original work
was done.

I do have an answer to the question, “Do we really have to
have our own kernel?”.

Yes.

Making decisions about fundamental principles upon which
you build your system has profound impacts on every aspect
of the software, including the kernel itself.  Linux is not a good
substitute for Plan 9.

And, I take particular exception to recommending Kubernetes
as a tool for deploying services.  I am having to live through
Kubernetes hell in my day job.  And, if I hear about it being
“declarative” as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (and
growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend.

I do think it is a good exercise to reevaluate the premises on
which one builds their systems in order to see if something
needs to change or a completely different approach is
warranted.

I just come to different conclusions than the author of this
paper.

Kim
_
C++ is an off-by-one error





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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[michaelian ennis]

Bar-raising.On Apr 12, 2024, at 06:29, Charles Forsyth  wrote:Where’s the link? I haven’t seen one yet for reading papers in advance.  Still one hour to go…I haven't read it yet myself, to avoid spoilers, but I thought it was a record even for Plan 9 that something has disturbed people even before the workshop opens! 

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[Charles Forsyth]

>
> Where’s the link? I haven’t seen one yet for reading papers in advance.
> Still one hour to go…


I haven't read it yet myself, to avoid spoilers, but I thought it was a
record even for Plan 9 that something has disturbed people even before the
workshop opens!

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[lists]

Never mind, https://iwp9.org/10iwp9proceedings.pdf

> On Apr 12, 2024, at 06:56, David Arnold  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> The vetting process needs some work, lads.
> 
> More heresy than trolling, perhaps?
> 
> It was thought-provoking for me.  I wished I was there for the bar session 
> afterwards.
> 
> d

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[lists]

Where’s the link? I haven’t seen one yet for reading papers in advance.  Still 
one hour to go…

> On Apr 12, 2024, at 06:04, Anthony Martin  wrote:
> 
> "Do we really have to have our own kernel? What are
> the benefits?" ...
> 
> The IWP9 paper titled "centre, left and right" looks like
> a complete troll. Was it generated by an LLM? I read the
> whole thing and it was a waste of time. Zero stars, would
> not recommend.
> 
> Institutional Academy of the Academic Institute, lol.
> 
> The vetting process needs some work, lads.
> 
> Cheers,
>  Anthony

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[David Arnold]

> The vetting process needs some work, lads.

More heresy than trolling, perhaps?

It was thought-provoking for me.  I wished I was there for the bar session 
afterwards. 




d

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Re: [9fans] troll paper

[Peter Hull]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 at 11:05, Anthony Martin  wrote:
>
> The IWP9 paper titled "centre, left and right" looks like
> a complete troll. Was it generated by an LLM?

I don't always understand things written about plan9 but this seemed
even to me to be a bit off. However the author is listed as being part
of the organising committee. Maybe it is a joke to see if we are awake
and paying attention?

Really interesting stuff in the other papers though, congratulations
to all who contributed!

Peter

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