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21:45:42 CEST
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 21:45:42 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Forgeot=20Eric?= [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: have fun with ties, slurs and triplets
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How will the standard evolve as far as ties and slurs are
concerned ?
It says :
$ It should be noted that although the tie - and slur ()
produce
$ similar symbols in staff notation they have completely different
$ meanings to player programs and should not be interchanged.
Ties
$ connect two successive notes of the same pitch, causing them to
$ be played as a single note, while slurs connect the first and
$ last note of any series of notes, and may be used to indicate
$ phrasing, or that the group should be played legato.
I understand that ties and slurs aren't the same, but slurs and
triplets can interact badly, like in this example (I transcribed
the notes as they were written ) :
X:1
T:Springleik etter Thorvald Trondsgård
R:Springleik
O:Norge - Norway - Norvège
A:Hedmark
Z:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=130
K:F
AB GA F(A| (3c)Ac (3B(GB) A(G| A)(B G)A FA |(3GAB A4 :|
|: AB GA FF | (3EFE D2 (D^C) | D(E (3F)(DF) E^C | D2 A4 |
AB GA FF | (3EFE D2 (D^C) | D(E (3F)(DF) E^C | (3EGF D4 :|
If we note slurs the same way ties are noted, it gives :
X:2
T:Springleik etter Thorvald Trondsgård (illegal)
R:Springleik
O:Norge - Norway - Norvège
A:Hedmark
Z:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=130
K:F
AB GA FA-| (3cAc (3BG-B AG-| AB- GA FA |(3GAB A4 :|
|: AB GA FF | (3EFE D2 D-^C | DE-(3FD-F E^C | D2 A4 |
AB GA FF | (3EFE D2 D-^C | DE-(3FD-F E^C | (3EGF D4 :|
I think it's more readable, and it could be permitted in the
standard for some extreme cases.
I've tried it with some abc tools. 1 is in the legal standard
and 2 is not :
abc2midi : 1 2 work well, no difference at all.
yaps : as espected 1 works well, 2 refused but gives bad ties : it
ties the 2 A (which are separated by c) in A-| (3cAc
abcm2ps : 1 works well, 2 is ignored, it gives no slur at all.
skink : work well with 2 (display illegal tied slurs), 1 refused
abc2win : display well 1 2, play well 2, but for 1 it slows down
the tricky parts {like (3c)Ac (3B(GB) }, maybe because of the
calculation ?
abcmus : the opposite of abc2win, it plays 1 faster on the tricky
parts. 2 is well played.
So even if a notation is legal and in the standard, it can give
unexpected results in some parsers.
I've seen that John Chamber made an intense use of - for slurs :
X: 3
P: the Banks of Spey
C: William Marshall
N: Caledonian Companion p.88.
N: Wm. Marshall p.48; Hardie p.88; SFT p.3; BSFC II-21
N: played by Ed Pearlman on BH 4A; Dancing Strings tape
Siegal/Payne
Z: John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
M: C|
L: 1/8
K: ADor
E || Am{E}[A2A] AB AB ce | Gdc B-A ~G3 E \
| Am[A2A] AB AB cd | Cec d-e G~g4 |
| Amag e-c de g-a | Eme-g gB G~G3 B \
| AmA-E AB (F)cd e-g | Dme-d E7cB AmA3 ||
c || AmA-E Ac A-E Ac | GBc d{c}B {A}~G3 B \
| AmA-E Ac A-E cd | Cec d-e G~g4 |
| Amag e-c de g-a | Eme-g gB G~G3 B \
| AmA-E AB (F)cd e-g | Dme-d E7cB AmA3 |]
Should the standard tolerate this way of noting ? Like the symbol
, it helps to make transcriptions clearer (and it's quicker to
write)
___
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Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...
On Tue, 21 May 2002, Atte Andre Jensen wrote: On Tue, 21 May 2002, Jack Campin wrote: It's fairly standard to have an empty rectangle instead as a clef for perc-stuff. Also if you notate a drumkit, it's nromally done in a regular five-line system with this drum-clef. I saw quite some drum-books that did it this way, and somewhere in the preface the author just defines what his pitches and symbols means. Yeah, but. That's instrument-specific to the drumkit (middling number of instruments), whereas the single-line notation works for any old drums/gongs/blocks/cymbals in any numbers from one to hundreds. Single- line has more widespread use across a variety of genres. ABC tries not to be instrument-specific unless it can't be helped. Let me get back to you on this. I'll get some examples from drummers (jazz) and percussionists (classical) at school (Royal Conservatory, The Hague), assuming you wanna get some real pro info, and not another guy' (=me) guess? Ok here you are: These two are from the april issue of modern drummer, the leading drumming magazine: http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/1.gif http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/2.gif These are from Beyond Bop Drumming by John Riley: http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/3.gif http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/4.gif http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/5.gif And the last three are from Advanced concepts by Kim Plainfield: http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/6.gif http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/7.gif http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/8.gif All are using regular five-note systems with percussion clef (the official term for the rectangular box replacing the clef). All examples rely on a key to define what notes are where, all though standards more or less include snare on c, hihats and cymbals high and low the stuff being played by the feet (bassdrumm and foot hihat). What's needed to implement this in abc is just the special noteheads + the precussion clef. I asked the guy who supplied me with this about the single line system, and he said that he couldn't think of any serious application for that. He agreed that sometimes you just wanna write really simplified percussion stuff, but that that would normally be notated as the above examples. -- love, peace harmony Atte To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] what does THAT means ??
From: Toby Rider [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [abcusers] BOUNCE [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Non-member submission from [ForgeotEric [EMAIL PROTECTED]] ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...
On Thu, 23 May 2002, Atte Andre Jensen wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I asked the guy who supplied me with this about the single line system, and he said that he couldn't think of any serious application for that. Modern Scottish snare drumming and the Swiss Basel style from which it derives both use the single-line system which Jack Campin described. See http://www.fastlane.net/~rbeckham/basl2.html http://hjem.get2net.dk/aapd/drummers_archive/trommenoder.htm for examples. cheers, e. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...
All are using regular five-note systems with percussion clef (the official term for the rectangular box replacing the clef). All examples rely on a key to define what notes are where, all though standards more or less include snare on c, hihats and cymbals high and low the stuff being played by the feet (bassdrumm and foot hihat). Pretty much what I'm used to seeing. What's needed to implement this in abc is just the special noteheads + the precussion clef. Yep. I asked the guy who supplied me with this about the single line system, and he said that he couldn't think of any serious application for that. He agreed that sometimes you just wanna write really simplified percussion stuff, but that that would normally be notated as the above examples. Yep. Having those symbols in abc would be nice for showing any percussion part. Rick To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...
| On Tue, 21 May 2002, Atte Andre Jensen wrote: | | These two are from the april issue of modern drummer, the leading drumming | magazine: | http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/1.gif | http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/2.gif | | These are from Beyond Bop Drumming by John Riley: | http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/3.gif | http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/4.gif | http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/5.gif | | And the last three are from Advanced concepts by Kim Plainfield: | http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/6.gif | http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/7.gif | http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/8.gif | | All are using regular five-note systems with percussion clef (the official | term for the rectangular box replacing the clef). All examples rely on a | key to define what notes are where, all though standards more or less | include snare on c, hihats and cymbals high and low the stuff being played | by the feet (bassdrumm and foot hihat). | | What's needed to implement this in abc is just the special noteheads + the | precussion clef. Hmmm ... Y'know; that might not be too difficult. For the x note heads, it would have been nice if 'x' hadn't been already taken up as an invisible rest; it would have made an intuitively-correct modifier for this purpose. Maybe we could use '*' for this purpose, so the *e would be an e with an 'x' for the note head. Either clef=drum or clef=perc might be good ways to show the clef. I wonder how long it would take to hack this into your typical abc2ps formatter? | I asked the guy who supplied me with this about the single line system, | and he said that he couldn't think of any serious application for that. | He agreed that sometimes you just wanna write really simplified percussion | stuff, but that that would normally be notated as the above examples. I've seen a fair number of one- and two-line drum staffs in Balkan and Middle-Eastern music. It makes sense there, where the typical traditional band has percussion, but typically not very many kinds of gadgets. One-line rhythmic notation is conventional in Balkan music for showing the meter. A time signature like 25/16 is silly, because there are many 25-count rhythms, and 25/16 doesn't distinguish them. Even in a simple case like 9/8, your typical Balkan musician will ask Which one? and is not being facetious. Instead, you'll see a line at the upper left that looks like: a3 a2a2 a3 a2a2 a2a2 a3 a2a2 except that rather than leger lines there's a single horizontal line. (Trivia question: What's the best-known tune in that rhyuthm? ;-) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...
I asked the guy who supplied me with this about the single line system, and he said that he couldn't think of any serious application for that. Modern Scottish snare drumming and the Swiss Basel style from which it derives both use the single-line system which Jack Campin described. See http://www.fastlane.net/~rbeckham/basl2.html http://hjem.get2net.dk/aapd/drummers_archive/trommenoder.htm for examples. So do all orchestral scores I've seen. Pulling the first miniature scores I can find off a shelf: Schoenberg, Variationen fur Orchester, Universal Edition UE 12196; Bartok, Dance Suite, Boosey and Hawkes BH 16154. The Bartok is a revealing example because there's one point where there are four unpitched percussion parts going at once and they *aren't* merged into one stave. I have never seen an ethnomusicological percussion transcription that used anything else, either. The sort of example I had in mind was Neil Sorrell's Guide to the Gamelan, where pitched instruments are written in 5-line staves and unpitched or one-pitch ones like the gong ageng in one-line. I haven't seen any example from the Islamic world that wasn't two-line. If a composer is using off-the-shelf music paper, five lines is the only option (most people seem to just use the middle one). But publication is different, and reflects less ad hoc reasons. And now that any composer with a word processor can print music paper with any layout they like, I'd be surprised if some don't deviate a lot from the regularly spaced five-line grid. I can't find any example of the drumkit notation Atte is talking about among scores I own (nearest is the Henry Cowell example in John Cage's Notations). I don't own any drumkit scores. Looks like this notation hasn't been taken up for anything else. The more fundamental reason behind this is that in kit drumming the kit is effectively a single instrument with relatively few components played by a single musician. That is not true in any other genre. If you tried to notate something like Stockhausen's Zyklus on a five-line stave you'd have to change the line assignments every few seconds of elapsed time, even though there's only one performer. And for an African drum orchestra piece where everybody only has one instrument, you aren't making it any more readable by squashing five people's music into one stave. Perhaps the merging Atte wants might be a display option, the way staff merging is in abcm2ps and BarFly, but it shouldn't be forced onto kinds of music where it's completely alien. A Highland pipe band drum corps would most likely regard a piece of software that did it as totally unusable. === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...
John Chambers writes: Hmmm ... Y'know; that might not be too difficult. For the x note heads, it would have been nice if 'x' hadn't been already taken up as an invisible rest; it would have made an intuitively-correct modifier for this purpose. Maybe we could use '*' for this purpose, so the *e would be an e with an 'x' for the note head. Either clef=drum or clef=perc might be good ways to show the clef. I wonder how long it would take to hack this into your typical abc2ps formatter? Or even, taking a leaf from K:HP, K:perc or K:perc(ADor). Or whatever. A drum clef is bound to be a bit special, to say the least. It could have its own special rules---no need to adopt _all_ the old rules, and carry over _all_ of the old notation, unless they're needed. Most things will carry over, but if something useful and intuitive in drum notation conflicts with something fairly obscure in the rest of abc, it shouldn't be too hard to decide between them. (E.g., the drum clef could even use x for the note-heads and * for invisible rests...if they're needed. It won't break any existing tunes, since no-one has used the drum clef yet.) That said, how deeply is the invisible rest embedded in abc? I had the impression it was introduced to get around the limitations of the guitar chord mechanism. If ever one could rationalize that... Cheers, John Walsh To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
