Re: About putting the blame on other shoulders
Andreas J Koenig wrote: On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:09:07 -0500, Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Will it not also affect us who build mod_perl applications and want an easy-to-use installer to just work for people who download our software? Frankly, I don't think that it should be fine for just the dedicated mod_perl developer. This is one place where PHP is kicking the crap out of us. us == perl, once PAUSE is fixed, and CPAN clients are adjusted, it will just work. Stas, please stop propagating this fairy tale. The danger is, that people will believe you. This I call unfair propaganda as it tries to put the blame on somebody else's shoulders. That's not a very promising strategy to solve problems. Listen carefully: it is very unlikely that PAUSE and CPAN get fixed as you call it. There is no solution at hand and 4 people who you know well and who in turn know the problem domain very well have agreed and have told you so. So please stop telling untruth. Andreas, what exactly do you call untruth? My attempt to make PAUSE/CPAN better and accomodate the growing community needs? Why is that untruth? It's not a danger that people will believe me, it's a hope. If enough people believe in that may be things will change. Things shouldn't be cast in stone and they should evolve as the world evolve. I truly don't understand why you refuse to believe that CPAN/PAUSE needs to grow. Re: About putting the blame on other shoulders It's not putting blame on other shoulders. It's an attempt to actually solve things. You know very well, that I didn't just say it's PAUSE/CPAN problem. I've spent hours trying to find a solution. I've even found a person who have agreed to implement the required changes. And all you can say: put the blame on other shoulders? thanks so much for giving me so much credit. -- __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide --- http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: About putting the blame on other shoulders
Cure wrote: Everybody needs to STEP BACK and realize how much work and soul Stas has put into mod_perl. He deserves A LOT OF CREDIT. Keep up the Good work Stas. Thanks Cure, for the kind words... but we are talking about a different kind of credit here. Andreas has put just as much work and soul if not more into PAUSE/CPAN. I was talking about the credits of actually trying to resolve the current conflict, rather than just trying to make someone else do the work. -- __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide --- http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: About putting the blame on other shoulders
Stas == Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stas Unfortunately thanks to Randal, people are now totally confused. No, I think thanks to me, people are now aware of a problem of fundamental incompatibility between the single @INC historical legacy of the entire Perl world and toolchain, and your use Apache2 workaround. There's awareness, not confusion. I think *you* are trying to confuse the issue by saying there's not a single thing wrong with your proposed release of MP2. Yes, there wouldn't be, if the entire rest of the world was compatible with it, which it isn't. Here are some possible scenarios: 1) you don't budge, CPAN doesn't change, and people around the world get confused with your release, because it's asking them to upgrade their mp1 by installing mp2, which *cannot* be done. 2) you don't budge, the rest of the world changes, toolsets get altered, everyone upgrades their tools just to avoid #1. I think this is what you want, but a lot of resources and a lot of people have to bend to your beck and call to make this happen, and it's not gonna happen by mid January. 3) you don't release mp2 to the CPAN except as an experimental version number, which avoids indexing, and people who want it can ask for it by name directly, not via install mod_perl. 4) you figure out how to rename all mp2 modules that aren't upward implementation compatible with mp1 to a new namespace, and release that like any of the other 72,000 modules on the CPAN. 5) something else entirely. I'm just saying that #1 and #2 are both unacceptable to me. I think it's also unacceptable to a lot of others. So we need to look at #3, #4, and #5. Now, if everyone involved agrees that #1 or #2 are workable, that's fine too. But I want this to be a community decision, not just Stas forcing pollution into everyone else's lives. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 merlyn@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: About putting the blame on other shoulders
- Original Message - From: Randal L. Schwartz merlyn@stonehenge.com To: Issac Goldstand [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: advocacy@perl.apache.org; Andreas J Koenig [EMAIL PROTECTED]; mod_perl Mailing List modperl@perl.apache.org; Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 7:09 PM Subject: Re: About putting the blame on other shoulders Issac == Issac Goldstand [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Issac Which is exactly the point that I was trying to make: This *should* be Issac doable. The fact that it's *not* means that Perl is a monolithic Issac library and can't have 2 sets of extensions in the same site Issac installation. *Or* in the CPAN, or visible to perldoc, or with installed manpages. See, the whole toolchain presumes Apache::Request or mod_perl means precisely one thing. Just like when GD2 was put out 2 1/2 years ago, there was only the old GD in CPAN, and I had the same problems - I had to check every piece of code I wrote for GD, and rewrite it to work with the new GD, as well as specify that I now use GD 2; thus destroying any backwards compatability. It doesn't matter how many Perl installations you have on your disk. There's only one CPAN. Perrin's point, while valid, doesn't address the indexing issue. But the indexer *does* handle it. If I want to install an old version of GD, because I can't install libgd2, I can still do install L/LD/LDS/GD-1.41.tar.gz (finding the path is usually easy, unless maintainers were switched: just do m GD) It would be still better, IMHO, if I could just do install GD-1.41. The problem is that modules/programs which want GD-1.xx will choke on GD-2.xx and vice versa (and I can only have one in the site installation at the same time). And to make things worse, the use module version pragma only goes one way: up. Issac - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: About putting the blame on other shoulders
Everybody needs to STEP BACK and realize how much work and soul Stas has put into mod_perl. He deserves A LOT OF CREDIT. Keep up the Good work Stas. Paul Stas Bekman wrote: Andreas J Koenig wrote: On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:09:07 -0500, Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Will it not also affect us who build mod_perl applications and want an easy-to-use installer to just work for people who download our software? Frankly, I don't think that it should be fine for just the dedicated mod_perl developer. This is one place where PHP is kicking the crap out of us. us == perl, once PAUSE is fixed, and CPAN clients are adjusted, it willjust work. Stas, please stop propagating this fairy tale. The danger is, that people will believe you. This I call unfair propaganda as it tries to put the blame on somebody else's shoulders. That's not a very promising strategy to solve problems. Listen carefully: it is very unlikely that PAUSE and CPAN get fixed as you call it. There is no solution at hand and 4 people who you know well and who in turn know the problem domain very well have agreed and have told you so. So please stop telling untruth. Andreas, what exactly do you call untruth? My attempt to make PAUSE/CPAN better and accomodate the growing community needs? Why is that untruth? It's not a danger that people will believe me, it's a hope. If enough people believe in that may be things will change. Things shouldn't be cast in stone and they should evolve as the world evolve. I truly don't understand why you refuse to believe that CPAN/PAUSE needs to grow. Re: About putting the blame on other shoulders It's not putting blame on other shoulders. It's an attempt to actually solve things. You know very well, that I didn't just say it's PAUSE/CPAN problem. I've spent hours trying to find a solution. I've even found a person who have agreed to implement the required changes. And all you can say: put the blame on other shoulders? thanks so much for giving me so much credit. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: About putting the blame on other shoulders
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:54:27 -0500, Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Cure wrote: Everybody needs to STEP BACK and realize how much work and soul Stas has put into mod_perl. He deserves A LOT OF CREDIT. Keep up the Good work Stas. Actually, I love Stas. And I'm sure he knows that. but we are talking about a different kind of credit here. Andreas has put just as much work and soul if not more into PAUSE/CPAN. I was talking about the credits of actually trying to resolve the current conflict, rather than just trying to make someone else do the work. I was referring to the sentence. once PAUSE is fixed, and CPAN clients are adjusted, it will just work. This is what gives the reader the false impression that (1) only PAUSE and CPAN clients need to be fixed, that (2) there is an agreed-upon way of fixing it, and (3) somebody will do just that. All three claims are very unlikely to be true. -- andreas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: About putting the blame on other shoulders
I might have misunderstood , Sorry. I just love mod_perl so much :) Paul Andreas J Koenig wrote: On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:54:27 -0500, Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Cure wrote: Everybody needs to "STEP BACK" and realize how much work and soul Stas has put into mod_perl. He deserves A LOT OF CREDIT. Keep up the Good work Stas. Actually, I love Stas. And I'm sure he knows that. but we are talking about a different kind of credit here. Andreas has put just as much work and soul if not more into PAUSE/CPAN. I was talking about the credits of actually trying to resolve the current conflict, rather than just trying to make someone else do the work. I was referring to the sentence. once PAUSE is fixed, and CPAN clients are adjusted, it will just work. This is what gives the reader the false impression that (1) only PAUSE and CPAN clients need to be fixed, that (2) there is an agreed-upon way of fixing it, and (3) somebody will do just that. All three claims are very unlikely to be true.
