Re: [agi] Nao Nao
There is one further point which is absolutely fundamental in operating system/compiler theory. The user should be unaware of how the work is divided up. A robot may simply have a WiFi router and very little else, or it might have considerable on board processing. The user should not be aware of this. = Ian Parker --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
RE: [agi] Nao Nao
I suppose that part of the work that it does is making people feel good and being a neat conversation piece. Interoperability and communications protocols can facilitate the path to AGI. Just like the many protocols used on the internet. I haven't looked at any for robotics specifically though there definitely are some. But having worked with many myself I am familiar with limitations, shortcomings and issues. Protocols is where it's at when making diverse systems work together and having good protocols initially can save vast amounts of engineering work. It's bang for the buck in a big way. John From: Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:02 AM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] Nao Nao By not made to perform work, you mean that it is not sturdy enough? Are any half-way AGI robots made to perform work, vs production line robots? (I think the idea of performing useful work should be a goal). The protocol is obviously a good idea, but you're not suggesting it per se will lead to AGI? From: John G. Rose mailto:johnr...@polyplexic.com Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:17 PM To: agi mailto:agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: RE: [agi] Nao Nao Typically the demo is some of the best that it can do. It looks like the robot is a mass produced model that has some really basic handling capabilities, not that it is made to perform work. It could still have relatively advanced microprocessor and networking system, IOW parts of the brain could run on centralized servers. I don't think they did that BUT it could. But it looks like one Nao can talk to another Nao. What's needed here is a standardized robot communication protocol. So a Nao could talk to a vacuum cleaner or a video cam or any other device that supports the protocol. Companies may resist this at first as they want to grab market share and don't understand the benefit. John From: Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:56 AM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] Nao Nao John, Any more detailed thoughts about its precise handling capabilities? Did it, first, not pick up the duck independently, (without human assistance)? If it did, what do you think would be the range of its object handling? (I had an immediate question about all this - have asked the site for further clarificiation - but nothing yet). From: John G. Rose mailto:johnr...@polyplexic.com Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:46 AM To: agi mailto:agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: RE: [agi] Nao Nao I wasn't meaning to portray pessimism. And that little sucker probably couldn't pick up a knife yet. But this is a paradigm change happening where we will have many networked mechanical entities. This opens up a whole new world of security and privacy issues... John From: David Jones [mailto:davidher...@gmail.com] Way too pessimistic in my opinion. On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:06 PM, John G. Rose johnr...@polyplexic.com wrote: Aww, so cute. I wonder if it has a Wi-Fi connection, DHCP's an IP address, and relays sensory information back to the main servers with all the other Nao's all collecting personal data in a massive multi-agent geo-distributed robo-network. So cuddly! And I wonder if it receives and executes commands, commands that come in over the network from whatever interested corporation or government pays the most for access. Such a sweet little friendly Nao. Everyone should get one :) John agi | https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Modify Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com agi | https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Modify Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com agi | https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Modify Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com agi | https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Modify Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Nao Nao
Just two quick comments. CCTV is already networked, the Police can track smoothly from one camera to another. Second comment is that if you (say) taking a heavy load upstairs you need 2 robots one holding each end. A single PC can control them both. In fact a robot workshop will be a kind of cloud, in terms of cloud computing. - Ian Parker On 12 August 2010 05:46, John G. Rose johnr...@polyplexic.com wrote: I wasn't meaning to portray pessimism. And that little sucker probably couldn't pick up a knife yet. But this is a paradigm change happening where we will have many networked mechanical entities. This opens up a whole new world of security and privacy issues... John *From:* David Jones [mailto:davidher...@gmail.com] Way too pessimistic in my opinion. On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:06 PM, John G. Rose johnr...@polyplexic.com wrote: Aww, so cute. I wonder if it has a Wi-Fi connection, DHCP's an IP address, and relays sensory information back to the main servers with all the other Nao's all collecting personal data in a massive multi-agent geo-distributed robo-network. So cuddly! And I wonder if it receives and executes commands, commands that come in over the network from whatever interested corporation or government pays the most for access. Such a sweet little friendly Nao. Everyone should get one :) John *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Nao Nao
John, Any more detailed thoughts about its precise handling capabilities? Did it, first, not pick up the duck independently, (without human assistance)? If it did, what do you think would be the range of its object handling? (I had an immediate question about all this - have asked the site for further clarificiation - but nothing yet). From: John G. Rose Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:46 AM To: agi Subject: RE: [agi] Nao Nao I wasn't meaning to portray pessimism. And that little sucker probably couldn't pick up a knife yet. But this is a paradigm change happening where we will have many networked mechanical entities. This opens up a whole new world of security and privacy issues... John From: David Jones [mailto:davidher...@gmail.com] Way too pessimistic in my opinion. On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:06 PM, John G. Rose johnr...@polyplexic.com wrote: Aww, so cute. I wonder if it has a Wi-Fi connection, DHCP's an IP address, and relays sensory information back to the main servers with all the other Nao's all collecting personal data in a massive multi-agent geo-distributed robo-network. So cuddly! And I wonder if it receives and executes commands, commands that come in over the network from whatever interested corporation or government pays the most for access. Such a sweet little friendly Nao. Everyone should get one :) John agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
RE: [agi] Nao Nao
Typically the demo is some of the best that it can do. It looks like the robot is a mass produced model that has some really basic handling capabilities, not that it is made to perform work. It could still have relatively advanced microprocessor and networking system, IOW parts of the brain could run on centralized servers. I don't think they did that BUT it could. But it looks like one Nao can talk to another Nao. What's needed here is a standardized robot communication protocol. So a Nao could talk to a vacuum cleaner or a video cam or any other device that supports the protocol. Companies may resist this at first as they want to grab market share and don't understand the benefit. John From: Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:56 AM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] Nao Nao John, Any more detailed thoughts about its precise handling capabilities? Did it, first, not pick up the duck independently, (without human assistance)? If it did, what do you think would be the range of its object handling? (I had an immediate question about all this - have asked the site for further clarificiation - but nothing yet). From: John G. Rose mailto:johnr...@polyplexic.com Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:46 AM To: agi mailto:agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: RE: [agi] Nao Nao I wasn't meaning to portray pessimism. And that little sucker probably couldn't pick up a knife yet. But this is a paradigm change happening where we will have many networked mechanical entities. This opens up a whole new world of security and privacy issues... John From: David Jones [mailto:davidher...@gmail.com] Way too pessimistic in my opinion. On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:06 PM, John G. Rose johnr...@polyplexic.com wrote: Aww, so cute. I wonder if it has a Wi-Fi connection, DHCP's an IP address, and relays sensory information back to the main servers with all the other Nao's all collecting personal data in a massive multi-agent geo-distributed robo-network. So cuddly! And I wonder if it receives and executes commands, commands that come in over the network from whatever interested corporation or government pays the most for access. Such a sweet little friendly Nao. Everyone should get one :) John agi | https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Modify Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com agi | https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Modify Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Nao Nao
By not made to perform work, you mean that it is not sturdy enough? Are any half-way AGI robots made to perform work, vs production line robots? (I think the idea of performing useful work should be a goal). The protocol is obviously a good idea, but you're not suggesting it per se will lead to AGI? From: John G. Rose Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:17 PM To: agi Subject: RE: [agi] Nao Nao Typically the demo is some of the best that it can do. It looks like the robot is a mass produced model that has some really basic handling capabilities, not that it is made to perform work. It could still have relatively advanced microprocessor and networking system, IOW parts of the brain could run on centralized servers. I don't think they did that BUT it could. But it looks like one Nao can talk to another Nao. What's needed here is a standardized robot communication protocol. So a Nao could talk to a vacuum cleaner or a video cam or any other device that supports the protocol. Companies may resist this at first as they want to grab market share and don't understand the benefit. John From: Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:56 AM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] Nao Nao John, Any more detailed thoughts about its precise handling capabilities? Did it, first, not pick up the duck independently, (without human assistance)? If it did, what do you think would be the range of its object handling? (I had an immediate question about all this - have asked the site for further clarificiation - but nothing yet). From: John G. Rose Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:46 AM To: agi Subject: RE: [agi] Nao Nao I wasn't meaning to portray pessimism. And that little sucker probably couldn't pick up a knife yet. But this is a paradigm change happening where we will have many networked mechanical entities. This opens up a whole new world of security and privacy issues... John From: David Jones [mailto:davidher...@gmail.com] Way too pessimistic in my opinion. On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:06 PM, John G. Rose johnr...@polyplexic.com wrote: Aww, so cute. I wonder if it has a Wi-Fi connection, DHCP's an IP address, and relays sensory information back to the main servers with all the other Nao's all collecting personal data in a massive multi-agent geo-distributed robo-network. So cuddly! And I wonder if it receives and executes commands, commands that come in over the network from whatever interested corporation or government pays the most for access. Such a sweet little friendly Nao. Everyone should get one :) John agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Nao Nao
We are getting down to some of the nitty gritty. To a considerable extent
what is holding robotics back is the lack of common standards. We can think
about what we might need. One would instinctively start with a CAD/CAM
package like ProEngineer. We can thus descibe a robot in terms of assembles
and parts. A single joint is a part, a human finger has 3 joints is an
assembly. A hand is an assembly. We get this by using CAD.
A robotic language has to be composed as follows.
class Part{
}
class Assemble{
}
An assembly/part will have a position. The simplest command is to move from
one position to another. Note that a position is a multidimensional quantity
and describes the positions of each part.
*Pick up ball* is a complex command. We first have to localise the ball,
determine the position required to grasp the ball any then put the parts
into a position so that the ball moves into a new position.
Sounds complicated? Yes it is, but a lot of the basic work has already been
done. The first time a task is performed the system would have to compute
from first principles. The second time it would have some stored positions.
The system could *learn*.
A position is a vector (multidimensional) 2 robots will have twice the
dimensions of a single robot.
*Move bed upstairs* is a twin robot problem, but no different in principle
from a single robot problem. Above all I think we must start off
mathematically and construct a language of maximum generality. It should be
pointed out too that there programs which will evaluate forces in a
multi-limb environment. In fact matrix theory was devised in the 19th
century.
- Ian Parker
On 12 August 2010 15:17, John G. Rose johnr...@polyplexic.com wrote:
Typically the demo is some of the best that it can do. It looks like the
robot is a mass produced model that has some really basic handling
capabilities, not that it is made to perform work. It could still have
relatively advanced microprocessor and networking system, IOW parts of the
brain could run on centralized servers. I don't think they did that BUT it
could.
But it looks like one Nao can talk to another Nao. What's needed here is a
standardized robot communication protocol. So a Nao could talk to a vacuum
cleaner or a video cam or any other device that supports the protocol.
Companies may resist this at first as they want to grab market share and
don't understand the benefit.
John
*From:* Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk]
*Sent:* Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:56 AM
*To:* agi
*Subject:* Re: [agi] Nao Nao
John,
Any more detailed thoughts about its precise handling capabilities? Did it,
first, not pick up the duck independently, (without human assistance)? If
it did, what do you think would be the range of its object handling? (I
had an immediate question about all this - have asked the site for further
clarificiation - but nothing yet).
*From:* John G. Rose johnr...@polyplexic.com
*Sent:* Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:46 AM
*To:* agi agi@v2.listbox.com
*Subject:* RE: [agi] Nao Nao
I wasn't meaning to portray pessimism.
And that little sucker probably couldn't pick up a knife yet.
But this is a paradigm change happening where we will have many networked
mechanical entities. This opens up a whole new world of security and privacy
issues...
John
*From:* David Jones [mailto:davidher...@gmail.com]
Way too pessimistic in my opinion.
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:06 PM, John G. Rose johnr...@polyplexic.com
wrote:
Aww, so cute.
I wonder if it has a Wi-Fi connection, DHCP's an IP address, and relays
sensory information back to the main servers with all the other Nao's all
collecting personal data in a massive multi-agent geo-distributed
robo-network.
So cuddly!
And I wonder if it receives and executes commands, commands that come in
over the network from whatever interested corporation or government pays the
most for access.
Such a sweet little friendly Nao. Everyone should get one :)
John
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RE: [agi] Nao Nao
Well both. Though much of the control could be remote depending on bandwidth. Also, one robot could benefit from the eyes of many as they would all be internetworked to a degree. John From: Ian Parker [mailto:ianpark...@gmail.com] Your remarks about WiFi echo my own view. Should a robot rely on an external connection (WiFi) or should it have complex processing itself. In general we try to keep real time response information local, although local my be viewed in terms of the c the speed of light. If a PC is 150m away from a robot this is a 300m double journey which will take a microsecond. To access the Web for a program will, of course, take considerably longer. A μ sec is nothing even when we are considering time critical functions like balance. However for balance it might be a good idea to either have the robot balancing, or else to have a card inserted into the PC. This is one topic for which I have not been able to have a satisfactory discussion or answer. People who build robots tend to think in terms of having the processing power on the robot. This I believe is wrong. - Ian Parker On 10 August 2010 00:06, John G. Rose johnr...@polyplexic.com wrote: Aww, so cute. I wonder if it has a Wi-Fi connection, DHCP's an IP address, and relays sensory information back to the main servers with all the other Nao's all collecting personal data in a massive multi-agent geo-distributed robo-network. So cuddly! And I wonder if it receives and executes commands, commands that come in over the network from whatever interested corporation or government pays the most for access. Such a sweet little friendly Nao. Everyone should get one :) John From: Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk] An unusually sophisticated ( somewhat expensive) promotional robot vid: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7934318/Nao-the-robot-that-expre sses-and-detects-emotions.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7934318/Nao-the-robot-that-expres ses-and-detects-emotions.html agi | https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modify Your Subscription https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
RE: [agi] Nao Nao
I wasn't meaning to portray pessimism. And that little sucker probably couldn't pick up a knife yet. But this is a paradigm change happening where we will have many networked mechanical entities. This opens up a whole new world of security and privacy issues... John From: David Jones [mailto:davidher...@gmail.com] Way too pessimistic in my opinion. On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:06 PM, John G. Rose johnr...@polyplexic.com wrote: Aww, so cute. I wonder if it has a Wi-Fi connection, DHCP's an IP address, and relays sensory information back to the main servers with all the other Nao's all collecting personal data in a massive multi-agent geo-distributed robo-network. So cuddly! And I wonder if it receives and executes commands, commands that come in over the network from whatever interested corporation or government pays the most for access. Such a sweet little friendly Nao. Everyone should get one :) John --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] Nao Nao
Way too pessimistic in my opinion. On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:06 PM, John G. Rose johnr...@polyplexic.comwrote: Aww, so cute. I wonder if it has a Wi-Fi connection, DHCP's an IP address, and relays sensory information back to the main servers with all the other Nao's all collecting personal data in a massive multi-agent geo-distributed robo-network. So cuddly! And I wonder if it receives and executes commands, commands that come in over the network from whatever interested corporation or government pays the most for access. Such a sweet little friendly Nao. Everyone should get one :) John *From:* Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk] An unusually sophisticated ( somewhat expensive) promotional robot vid: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7934318/Nao-the-robot-that-expresses-and-detects-emotions.html *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/| Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
RE: [agi] Nao Nao
Aww, so cute. I wonder if it has a Wi-Fi connection, DHCP's an IP address, and relays sensory information back to the main servers with all the other Nao's all collecting personal data in a massive multi-agent geo-distributed robo-network. So cuddly! And I wonder if it receives and executes commands, commands that come in over the network from whatever interested corporation or government pays the most for access. Such a sweet little friendly Nao. Everyone should get one :) John From: Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk] An unusually sophisticated ( somewhat expensive) promotional robot vid: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7934318/Nao-the-robot-that-expre sses-and-detects-emotions.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7934318/Nao-the-robot-that-expres ses-and-detects-emotions.html agi | https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Modify Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
