Re: [Aus-soaring] Cloud flying, Wave flying, Artificial horizons, and such like instruments in gliders
Mike, At first glance, the concept of allowing cloud flying in competitions has problems relating to both fairness and safety, and I would be interested to know how the Kiwis handle it. The problem is that the level of competence in cloud flying among competitors will vary greatly (from none to excellent) and CD's will not easily be able to tell who is competent and current, and who is not. Then there will be days when having the skill will impart a huge advantage, tempting those with lesser or no skills to give it a go. Foreign pilots from countries like Australia would presumably be excluded from such competitions on safety grounds, and if not would certainly be at such a disadvantage that it would not be worth entering anyway. Do you have any insights into how they deal with it? The idea of a 20-glider gaggle is scary enough in clear air for most people - the idea that this gaggle could legally all disappear into the same cloud is genuinely thought-provoking :) Cheers /Tim/ /tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare/ On 15/06/2011 11:40, Mike Borgelt wrote: Cloud flying is permitted in NZ in designated cloud flying areas even in contests IIRC from a couple of years ago. Flying on instruments is a matter of training and practice. We nowadays have wonderful PC based flight simulators (Condor?) for the practice. The old arguments about we don't know where we are no longer hold as we have GPS with moving maps. Attitude indicators aren't all that expensive and the necessary sensors can be built into soaring instruments. These can be built so they don't have the problems that old AH instruments had in gliders(indicated bank decreases with time). With a little awareness(pitot icing), proper equipment, training and procedures and some PC based recurrent practice there doesn't seem to be any reason not fly in cloud now and again in gliders. Might be fun to fly out into the sunshine and smooth air from the side of a tall cumulus. You'd want to see what happens in your glider if you trim aft and open the brakes and then take hands and feet off the controls. Some gliders are claimed to have a benign spiral mode. Mike At 11:05 AM 15/06/2011, you wrote: Hi all, I suspect that two factors were significant in the early days of the BGA which were not so relevant in Australia. First, the number of days with cumulus cloud and relatively low cloudbases, and secondly a number of ex-air force pilots with IFR skills being involved in the formation of the gliding movement. The countries that permitted (and still permit) cloud flying seem to be limited to northern Europe and so it is likely that weather conditions play a big part in swinging the decision. Cloud flying was banned in world competition after the 1972 World Comps (a collision and fatality in cloud) and as far as I know this ban is universal in competitions now, even in countries that allow cloud flying in other circumstances. I think that during the 1970's several gliders were built with VNE limiting brakes (Club Libelle, Hornet, Mosquito, Cobra, Pik20, Nimbus 2C) but earlier designs such as Libelle, Cirrus, Kestrel were not (though some had tail chutes) and after the 1980's I think very few if any were speed limited. I don't have blind flying instruments in my glider and would not use them, even if I did. It's hard enough to thermal when I can see. Cheers *Tim* /tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare / On 14/06/2011 11:21, gstev...@bigpond.com mailto:gstev...@bigpond.com wrote: Hi All, I would very much like to know the process/history on how 'cloud flying came to be banned for gliders (in Australia), and when. I am somewhat surprised that as an ex British Colony - read we used to do what the Brits did even long after Federation - and cloud flying in gliders is, and has been for many years, permitted in the UK why we in Australia went down a different path. How many pilots on this list have Bohli and similar compasses fitted to their glider and feel they are competent to use them as a blind flying aid? What are the experiences of members, who when flying wave, had the Fohn Gap close under them. There must be many a tale to be told here? Regards, Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring *Borgelt Instruments* - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
Re: [Aus-soaring] Cloud flying, Wave flying, Artificial horizons, and such like instruments in gliders
Tim, I didn't ask. It was a competition briefing and the CD noted that the task passed through the allowed cloud flying area and you could cloud fly there. This was at Waharoa (North island). They do have complete radar coverage and the gliders all have transponders. Even in the UK they don't just all climb up in the cloud in a gaggle. The BGA has some rules for this including radio calls, a cloud flying frequency and some rules so that two gliders don't occupy the same cloud at anything like the same altitude. If cloud flying is allowed in contests and you are serious as a competitor and believe it may be an advantage, I guess you'd equip the glider and acquire the skill. How many interesting skills do we want to lose or eliminate entirely? Navigation no longer has an advantage in being able to do it without GPS and being able to position the glider for turnpoint photos is gone. Of course in legal terms, glider pilots in Australia all cloud fly when they fly closer than 1000 feet to cloudbase(used to be 500 feet in the old days until the ATC mob snuck this through). Likewise 1.5Km horizontally. Interesting that. Mike At 05:25 PM 15/06/2011, you wrote: Mike, At first glance, the concept of allowing cloud flying in competitions has problems relating to both fairness and safety, and I would be interested to know how the Kiwis handle it. The problem is that the level of competence in cloud flying among competitors will vary greatly (from none to excellent) and CD's will not easily be able to tell who is competent and current, and who is not. Then there will be days when having the skill will impart a huge advantage, tempting those with lesser or no skills to give it a go. Foreign pilots from countries like Australia would presumably be excluded from such competitions on safety grounds, and if not would certainly be at such a disadvantage that it would not be worth entering anyway. Do you have any insights into how they deal with it? The idea of a 20-glider gaggle is scary enough in clear air for most people - the idea that this gaggle could legally all disappear into the same cloud is genuinely thought-provoking :) Cheers Tim tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare On 15/06/2011 11:40, Mike Borgelt wrote: Cloud flying is permitted in NZ in designated cloud flying areas even in contests IIRC from a couple of years ago. Flying on instruments is a matter of training and practice. We nowadays have wonderful PC based flight simulators (Condor?) for the practice. The old arguments about we don't know where we are no longer hold as we have GPS with moving maps. Attitude indicators aren't all that expensive and the necessary sensors can be built into soaring instruments. These can be built so they don't have the problems that old AH instruments had in gliders(indicated bank decreases with time). With a little awareness(pitot icing), proper equipment, training and procedures and some PC based recurrent practice there doesn't seem to be any reason not fly in cloud now and again in gliders. Might be fun to fly out into the sunshine and smooth air from the side of a tall cumulus. You'd want to see what happens in your glider if you trim aft and open the brakes and then take hands and feet off the controls. Some gliders are claimed to have a benign spiral mode. Mike At 11:05 AM 15/06/2011, you wrote: Hi all, I suspect that two factors were significant in the early days of the BGA which were not so relevant in Australia. First, the number of days with cumulus cloud and relatively low cloudbases, and secondly a number of ex-air force pilots with IFR skills being involved in the formation of the gliding movement. The countries that permitted (and still permit) cloud flying seem to be limited to northern Europe and so it is likely that weather conditions play a big part in swinging the decision. Cloud flying was banned in world competition after the 1972 World Comps (a collision and fatality in cloud) and as far as I know this ban is universal in competitions now, even in countries that allow cloud flying in other circumstances. I think that during the 1970's several gliders were built with VNE limiting brakes (Club Libelle, Hornet, Mosquito, Cobra, Pik20, Nimbus 2C) but earlier designs such as Libelle, Cirrus, Kestrel were not (though some had tail chutes) and after the 1980's I think very few if any were speed limited. I don't have blind flying instruments in my glider and would not use them, even if I did. It's hard enough to thermal when I can see. Cheers Tim tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare On 14/06/2011 11:21, mailto:gstev...@bigpond.comgstev...@bigpond.com wrote: Hi All, I would very much like to know the process/history on how 'cloud flying came to be banned for gliders (in Australia), and when. I am somewhat surprised that as an ex British Colony - read we used to do what the
[Aus-soaring] Cloud flying, Wave flying, Artificial horizons, and such like instruments in gliders
Hi All, I would very much like to know the process/history on how 'cloud flying came to be banned for gliders (in Australia), and when. I am somewhat surprised that as an ex British Colony - read we used to do what the Brits did even long after Federation - and cloud flying in gliders is, and has been for many years, permitted in the UK why we in Australia went down a different path. How many pilots on this list have Bohli and similar compasses fitted to their glider and feel they are competent to use them as a blind flying aid? What are the experiences of members, who when flying wave, had the Fohn Gap close under them. There must be many a tale to be told here? Regards, Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Cloud flying, Wave flying, Artificial horizons, and such like instruments in gliders
And when replying, please remember that you are writing for all the world to read. Not everyone reading this list is your friend. Cheers /Tim/ /tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare/ On 14/06/2011 11:21, gstev...@bigpond.com wrote: Hi All, I would very much like to know the process/history on how 'cloud flying came to be banned for gliders (in Australia), and when. I am somewhat surprised that as an ex British Colony - read we used to do what the Brits did even long after Federation - and cloud flying in gliders is, and has been for many years, permitted in the UK why we in Australia went down a different path. How many pilots on this list have Bohli and similar compasses fitted to their glider and feel they are competent to use them as a blind flying aid? What are the experiences of members, who when flying wave, had the Fohn Gap close under them. There must be many a tale to be told here? Regards, Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Cloud flying, Wave flying, Artificial horizons, and such like instruments in gliders
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 11:21 PM, gstev...@bigpond.com wrote: Hi All, I would very much like to know the process/history on how 'cloud flying came to be banned for gliders (in Australia), and when. I am somewhat surprised that as an ex British Colony - read we used to do what the Brits did even long after Federation - and cloud flying in gliders is, and has been for many years, permitted in the UK why we in Australia went down a different path. How many pilots on this list have Bohli and similar compasses fitted to their glider and feel they are competent to use them as a blind flying aid? What are the experiences of members, who when flying wave, had the Fohn Gap close under them. There must be many a tale to be told here? Regards, Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Not an answer but some history on an attempt to change the official line http://www.glidingcaboolture.org.au/gq60/tgs_instrument_flying.htm cheers, Ken ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Cloud flying, Wave flying, Artificial horizons, and such like instruments in gliders
I would strongly advise to not treat Bohli compasses and the like as artificial horizons and not to attempt to cloud fly. In the foehn gap type emergency with no other out a GPS track may be of use. Instrument flying takes training and practice. I have done a little cloud flying in gliders O/S and the way the Poms do it scares me. Tom From: gstev...@bigpond.com gstev...@bigpond.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Tuesday, 14 June 2011 11:21 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Cloud flying, Wave flying, Artificial horizons, and such like instruments in gliders Hi All, I would very much like to know the process/history on how 'cloud flying came to be banned for gliders (in Australia), and when. I am somewhat surprised that as an ex British Colony - read we used to do what the Brits did even long after Federation - and cloud flying in gliders is, and has been for many years, permitted in the UK why we in Australia went down a different path. How many pilots on this list have Bohli and similar compasses fitted to their glider and feel they are competent to use them as a blind flying aid? What are the experiences of members, who when flying wave, had the Fohn Gap close under them. There must be many a tale to be told here? Regards, Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Cloud flying, Wave flying, Artificial horizons, and such like instruments in gliders
Hi, I think cloud flying was disallowed in comps after the World Comps in Vrsac, 1972 as a result of a mid-air in cloud and a fatality. This was the last world comps where clouds flying was allowed. One interesting aspect of this is that until about that time, gliders were designed (in thing it was mandated by OSTIV, was it part of the standard class specification?) so that they would not exceed VNE with fully extended airbrakes. This allowed the pilot who lost it in the cloud just open the airbrakes and let go of controls to survive the experience in one piece. To my knowledge the last glider designed according to that specification (at least in Poland) was Cobra 15. The modern slippery ships do not provide this luxury, if you loose spatial awareness in a cloud, the likelihood of overstressing the aircraft or even breaking it is considerable. Full opened airbrakes will not help. As for my personal experience, I was formally trained in cloud flying in Poland. It was done with turn and bank indicator. First in a two seater, then solo in clouds. The endorsement was a prerequisite for attempting mountain wave flying. Actual cloud flying was very rare (it was already disallowed on comps) and required a CFI permission for a specific flight. Typically it would have been granted for a 3000m or 5000m height gain in the flat country when the weather was right. I would never, ever attempt getting into a cloud if: - at the very least I have functioning turn and bank indicator - I have practiced the skill recently and feel confident I can handle flying blind I think that it is very dangerous to believe that one can fly blind with the compass alone. Regards Jarek gstev...@bigpond.com wrote: Hi All, I would very much like to know the process/history on how 'cloud flying came to be banned for gliders (in Australia), and when. I am somewhat surprised that as an ex British Colony - read we used to do what the Brits did even long after Federation - and cloud flying in gliders is, and has been for many years, permitted in the UK why we in Australia went down a different path. How many pilots on this list have Bohli and similar compasses fitted to their glider and feel they are competent to use them as a blind flying aid? What are the experiences of members, who when flying wave, had the Fohn Gap close under them. There must be many a tale to be told here? Regards, Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Cloud flying, Wave flying, Artificial horizons, and such like instruments in gliders
Hi all, I suspect that two factors were significant in the early days of the BGA which were not so relevant in Australia. First, the number of days with cumulus cloud and relatively low cloudbases, and secondly a number of ex-air force pilots with IFR skills being involved in the formation of the gliding movement. The countries that permitted (and still permit) cloud flying seem to be limited to northern Europe and so it is likely that weather conditions play a big part in swinging the decision. Cloud flying was banned in world competition after the 1972 World Comps (a collision and fatality in cloud) and as far as I know this ban is universal in competitions now, even in countries that allow cloud flying in other circumstances. I think that during the 1970's several gliders were built with VNE limiting brakes (Club Libelle, Hornet, Mosquito, Cobra, Pik20, Nimbus 2C) but earlier designs such as Libelle, Cirrus, Kestrel were not (though some had tail chutes) and after the 1980's I think very few if any were speed limited. I don't have blind flying instruments in my glider and would not use them, even if I did. It's hard enough to thermal when I can see. Cheers /Tim/ /tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare/ On 14/06/2011 11:21, gstev...@bigpond.com wrote: Hi All, I would very much like to know the process/history on how 'cloud flying came to be banned for gliders (in Australia), and when. I am somewhat surprised that as an ex British Colony - read we used to do what the Brits did even long after Federation - and cloud flying in gliders is, and has been for many years, permitted in the UK why we in Australia went down a different path. How many pilots on this list have Bohli and similar compasses fitted to their glider and feel they are competent to use them as a blind flying aid? What are the experiences of members, who when flying wave, had the Fohn Gap close under them. There must be many a tale to be told here? Regards, Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Cloud flying, Wave flying, Artificial horizons, and such like instruments in gliders
Cloud flying is permitted in NZ in designated cloud flying areas even in contests IIRC from a couple of years ago. Flying on instruments is a matter of training and practice. We nowadays have wonderful PC based flight simulators (Condor?) for the practice. The old arguments about we don't know where we are no longer hold as we have GPS with moving maps. Attitude indicators aren't all that expensive and the necessary sensors can be built into soaring instruments. These can be built so they don't have the problems that old AH instruments had in gliders(indicated bank decreases with time). With a little awareness(pitot icing), proper equipment, training and procedures and some PC based recurrent practice there doesn't seem to be any reason not fly in cloud now and again in gliders. Might be fun to fly out into the sunshine and smooth air from the side of a tall cumulus. You'd want to see what happens in your glider if you trim aft and open the brakes and then take hands and feet off the controls. Some gliders are claimed to have a benign spiral mode. Mike At 11:05 AM 15/06/2011, you wrote: Hi all, I suspect that two factors were significant in the early days of the BGA which were not so relevant in Australia. First, the number of days with cumulus cloud and relatively low cloudbases, and secondly a number of ex-air force pilots with IFR skills being involved in the formation of the gliding movement. The countries that permitted (and still permit) cloud flying seem to be limited to northern Europe and so it is likely that weather conditions play a big part in swinging the decision. Cloud flying was banned in world competition after the 1972 World Comps (a collision and fatality in cloud) and as far as I know this ban is universal in competitions now, even in countries that allow cloud flying in other circumstances. I think that during the 1970's several gliders were built with VNE limiting brakes (Club Libelle, Hornet, Mosquito, Cobra, Pik20, Nimbus 2C) but earlier designs such as Libelle, Cirrus, Kestrel were not (though some had tail chutes) and after the 1980's I think very few if any were speed limited. I don't have blind flying instruments in my glider and would not use them, even if I did. It's hard enough to thermal when I can see. Cheers Tim tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare On 14/06/2011 11:21, mailto:gstev...@bigpond.comgstev...@bigpond.com wrote: Hi All, I would very much like to know the process/history on how 'cloud flying came to be banned for gliders (in Australia), and when. I am somewhat surprised that as an ex British Colony - read we used to do what the Brits did even long after Federation - and cloud flying in gliders is, and has been for many years, permitted in the UK why we in Australia went down a different path. How many pilots on this list have Bohli and similar compasses fitted to their glider and feel they are competent to use them as a blind flying aid? What are the experiences of members, who when flying wave, had the Fohn Gap close under them. There must be many a tale to be told here? Regards, Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
