Re: [Babel-users] Cross-compiling to armhf [was: beaglebone green wireless boards...]

2016-07-13 Thread Benjamin Henrion 
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 7:54 PM, Benjamin Henrion  wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Dave Taht  wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 4:31 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek
>>  wrote:
 The preinstalled OS has sufficient compiler and onboard flash space to
 build a current babeld from git, and I'm happy to report IPV6_SUBTREES
 is compiled in by default.
>>>
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> It's not the first time that I notice with wonder that you're compiling on
>>> the devel boards.  Are you aware that cross-compiling babeld to armhf is
>>> so easy it's not even funny?
>>>
>>>   sudo apt-get install gcc-arm-linux-gnueabihf
>>>   make CC=arm-linux-gnueabihf-gcc
>>
>>
>> I ended up writing a long rant about this that I will blog one day...
>> but my short answer to both your suggestions that I cross compile or
>> install a docker: "You kids, get off my lawn!" :)
>
> I never understood why you could not have some GCC with all the
> different arch built-in with just a switch flag like --arch="armv7".
>
> That would simplify the life of developers and packagers alike.

I discovered recently that Xcode is just doing that:

https://twitter.com/zoobab/status/751057066496753664

For example:

xcodebuild -configuration "Release" -arch armv7 install DSTROOT=/tmp/lzfse.dst

--
Benjamin Henrion 
FFII Brussels - +32-484-566109 - +32-2-3500762
"In July 2005, after several failed attempts to legalise software
patents in Europe, the patent establishment changed its strategy.
Instead of explicitly seeking to sanction the patentability of
software, they are now seeking to create a central European patent
court, which would establish and enforce patentability rules in their
favor, without any possibility of correction by competing courts or
democratically elected legislators."

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Re: [Babel-users] Cross-compiling to armhf [was: beaglebone green wireless boards...]

2016-06-23 Thread Dave Taht 
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek
 wrote:
>> the long slow EABI changeover that was obsoleted almost overnight by the
>> armhf work the raspian folk did, and so on.
>
> I am pretty positive that armhf predates raspbian.  Let's please give
> credit where credit is due.

I note that I *really like arm*, going back a very long ways.
http://the-edge.blogspot.com/2002/06/axioms-one-of-my-axioms-about.html
I remember telling the CTO of palm they were doomed back then... they
had started trying to differentiate models by *color* at that
point

sure the abi and compiler "were out there" - but getting 20,000
packages converted over and widely into a popular distro and platform,
to me, was the tipping point for wider adoption of the hard float abi,
as something others could build on. I just spent a few minutes
googling for that story, but couldn't find it (what I remember was 3
guys, 3 months, hammering at getting 20,000 packages to all "just
work").

What we had before was a mess of different ABIs, and a whole bunch of
slightly incompatible arm cpu versions - all enough different to
fragment the arm ecosystem. there was no way you could trust one
binary on a different box. Back around this time (2006-2010?) it was
also unclear that arm would accellerate so far past the herd, either,
and there were a ton of other factors, of course that led to where
it's now being considered for supercomputers and looks set to start
unseating intel in many places.

And despite really liking arm, I look forward to entirely new arches
like the risc-v and mill eating its lunch one day. Things like
trustzone, the mali gpu, and other portions of onchip IP commonly
shipped with the chips suck rocks, still. Very few applications are
taking good advantage of the neon vfp code, the onboard caches are way
behind intel's, and so on...

speaking of trustzone - yea! there's a way to use it now.

https://github.com/OP-TEE



>
> -- Juliusz



-- 
Dave Täht
Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software!
http://blog.cerowrt.org

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Re: [Babel-users] Cross-compiling to armhf [was: beaglebone green wireless boards...]

2016-06-23 Thread Juliusz Chroboczek 
> the long slow EABI changeover that was obsoleted almost overnight by the
> armhf work the raspian folk did, and so on.

I am pretty positive that armhf predates raspbian.  Let's please give
credit where credit is due.

-- Juliusz

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Re: [Babel-users] Cross-compiling to armhf [was: beaglebone green wireless boards...]

2016-06-23 Thread Dave Taht 
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek
 wrote:
>> (does a working cross compiler exist for the aarch64 in the c2?)
>
>   apt-get install gcc-aarch64-linux-gnu

d@osx: apt-get install gcc-aarch64-linux-gnu

Not found.

...

One of the bigger mistakes I have made in the last 3 years was
adopting an macbook air as my main laptop - primarily because the
keyboard was tolerable and backlit, it was light on my back, and
everything worked, all the time.

Running a vm for any length of time drains the battery, and the mental
semantic confusion I get from switching keyboard and mouse interfaces
between linux vm and osx, not to mention the added overhead of porting
over the tools I use (notably aquamacs), has led to an enormous
decline in my day to day development activity and a corresponding rise
in using email and other management tools. For years I'd advocated to
others that if they are going to develop on linux, for any platform,
then they should eat, sleep, and breathe linux to do so, and I've hurt
my day to day productivity by trying, only counterbalanced by that I
can try for longer (like a 10 hr airline flight)

It turns out I use absolutely no native osx apps that don't run on
linux; although things like garageband had some initial appeal,
ardour4 proved better. So the only defenses I have for that laptop are
the lightness, keyboard, and battery life. It also serves as a
constant reminder of how limited other OSes are and the uphill battle
on what needs to happen for getting universal fixes on everything.

I have two other linux laptops, both broken. On one, the ethernet is
fried, on the other, the X11 gui environment got so messed up that I
can no longer log in - so both have ended up in the testbed for use as
fq_codel development targets rather than directly in front of me. I
have a chromebook, but my attempt to get a real linux on it ended in
disaster.

> Dave, I know you're a grumpy old man, but the Debian folks have done some
> remarkable work on cross-compilation, on multiarch, chroots and emulation.

Yes they have! It is quite amazing how arm got it's act together,
including and especially all the integration work linaro did. I have a
long story on all the work I did on arm architecture long before armhf
became popular, and the mess that that was, all the way back to 1998
and handhelds.org, the disaster that was the ep9302 FPU, the long slow
EABI changeover that was obsoleted almost overnight by the armhf work
the raspian folk did, and so on.

I do plan to try and reform on this upcoming trip - bringing an air,
and reinstalling that busted laptop from scratch - but even then the
trackpad never worked worth a darn. If I don't manage to reform, I'll
also have an odroid c2 and beaglebone with me that both support native
compilation.


> (I wonder why they still insist that we use the morass of complexity
> called Debian-installer.  It is so much easier to run deboostrap, generate
> a root filesystem, tweak the root filesystem until you're happy, and then
> copy it over to the target and be done with it.)
>
> -- Juliusz



-- 
Dave Täht
Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software!
http://blog.cerowrt.org

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Re: [Babel-users] Cross-compiling to armhf [was: beaglebone green wireless boards...]

2016-06-23 Thread Juliusz Chroboczek 
> (does a working cross compiler exist for the aarch64 in the c2?)

  apt-get install gcc-aarch64-linux-gnu

Dave, I know you're a grumpy old man, but the Debian folks have done some
remarkable work on cross-compilation, on multiarch, chroots and emulation.

(I wonder why they still insist that we use the morass of complexity
called Debian-installer.  It is so much easier to run deboostrap, generate
a root filesystem, tweak the root filesystem until you're happy, and then
copy it over to the target and be done with it.)

-- Juliusz

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Re: [Babel-users] Cross-compiling to armhf [was: beaglebone green wireless boards...]

2016-06-23 Thread Benjamin Henrion 
On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Dave Taht  wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 4:31 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek
>  wrote:
>>> The preinstalled OS has sufficient compiler and onboard flash space to
>>> build a current babeld from git, and I'm happy to report IPV6_SUBTREES
>>> is compiled in by default.
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> It's not the first time that I notice with wonder that you're compiling on
>> the devel boards.  Are you aware that cross-compiling babeld to armhf is
>> so easy it's not even funny?
>>
>>   sudo apt-get install gcc-arm-linux-gnueabihf
>>   make CC=arm-linux-gnueabihf-gcc
>
>
> I ended up writing a long rant about this that I will blog one day...
> but my short answer to both your suggestions that I cross compile or
> install a docker: "You kids, get off my lawn!" :)

I never understood why you could not have some GCC with all the
different arch built-in with just a switch flag like --arch="armv7".

That would simplify the life of developers and packagers alike.

--
Benjamin Henrion 
FFII Brussels - +32-484-566109 - +32-2-3500762
"In July 2005, after several failed attempts to legalise software
patents in Europe, the patent establishment changed its strategy.
Instead of explicitly seeking to sanction the patentability of
software, they are now seeking to create a central European patent
court, which would establish and enforce patentability rules in their
favor, without any possibility of correction by competing courts or
democratically elected legislators."

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Re: [Babel-users] Cross-compiling to armhf [was: beaglebone green wireless boards...]

2016-06-22 Thread Dave Taht 
On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 4:31 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek
 wrote:
>> The preinstalled OS has sufficient compiler and onboard flash space to
>> build a current babeld from git, and I'm happy to report IPV6_SUBTREES
>> is compiled in by default.
>
> Dave,
>
> It's not the first time that I notice with wonder that you're compiling on
> the devel boards.  Are you aware that cross-compiling babeld to armhf is
> so easy it's not even funny?
>
>   sudo apt-get install gcc-arm-linux-gnueabihf
>   make CC=arm-linux-gnueabihf-gcc


I ended up writing a long rant about this that I will blog one day...
but my short answer to both your suggestions that I cross compile or
install a docker: "You kids, get off my lawn!" :)

I have a tendency to need to compile things vastly more complex than
babel, often more bleeding edge than what is supplied in a repo, and
*knowing* that an apt-get build-dep something; then checking it out
from git head, will actually work with minimal effort, is a joy. The
latest generation of hackerboards are actually "real computers",
because they have a working, on-board compiler and full debian (and
android) support. They would be even more real if the Xwindow drivers
worked worth a damn and I could hook up a keyboard, or a variety of
more obscure languages (:cough: "go", "rust") actually worked, also.

I would love to one day soon be back on a world where I only had to
compile stuff for one architecture, and could spend more time writing
code rather than dealing with ABI differences. I am impressed with the
java port... Although I don't care for java much, it would be nice to
carry these new protocols into android somehow.

> Shncpd is a little bit trickier, since it depends on libbsd.  I think I'll
> remove the dependency before relase, but in the meantime you may either
> build yourself an armhf libbsd, or install libbsd0:armhf on your system
> (which requires setting up a multiarch environment), or set up
> a cross-compilation chroot, or simply copy libbsd.so from the target system.

Compiling natively, I don't have to think about that.

(does a working cross compiler exist for the aarch64 in the c2?)


-- 
Dave Täht
Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software!
http://blog.cerowrt.org

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Re: [Babel-users] Cross-compiling to armhf [was: beaglebone green wireless boards...]

2016-06-22 Thread Benjamin Henrion 
On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek
 wrote:
>> The preinstalled OS has sufficient compiler and onboard flash space to
>> build a current babeld from git, and I'm happy to report IPV6_SUBTREES
>> is compiled in by default.
>
> Dave,
>
> It's not the first time that I notice with wonder that you're compiling on
> the devel boards.  Are you aware that cross-compiling babeld to armhf is
> so easy it's not even funny?
>
>   sudo apt-get install gcc-arm-linux-gnueabihf
>   make CC=arm-linux-gnueabihf-gcc

Well, I have been pushing for those xcompilers 10 years ago, depending
on the distro you use, it is still not in Debian stable:

https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=gcc-arm-linux-gnueabihf

So if you use Ubuntu, it is there since 12.04LTS:

http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=gcc-arm-linux-gnueabihf

Otherwise, if you want to avoid the "compile on the target", you could
also run the following qemu+docker trick, even though docker should
not be a requirement, it should be doable with chroot:

docker run -it --rm -v
/usr/bin/qemu-arm-static:/usr/bin/qemu-arm-static philipz/rpi-raspbian
bash

Best,

-- 
Benjamin Henrion 
FFII Brussels - +32-484-566109 - +32-2-3500762
"In July 2005, after several failed attempts to legalise software
patents in Europe, the patent establishment changed its strategy.
Instead of explicitly seeking to sanction the patentability of
software, they are now seeking to create a central European patent
court, which would establish and enforce patentability rules in their
favor, without any possibility of correction by competing courts or
democratically elected legislators."

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