Re: [Bitcoin-development] Even simpler minimum fee calculation formula: f bounty*fork_rate/average_blocksize

2013-11-15 Thread Peter Todd
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 08:01:27PM +, John Dillon wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Last week I posted a writeup: On the optimal block size and why transaction fees are 8 times too low (or transactions 8 times too big). Peter Todd made some nice additions to it

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Adam Back
While we're discussing the emotive (though actually of real relevance for bitcoin user comprehension and sentiment) I couldnt resisnt to add some trivia reference it is amusing that a currency rarely in history had to deflate (remove 0s) rather than inflate (add 0s). Viz this hyperinflated fifty

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Even simpler minimum fee calculation formula: f bounty*fork_rate/average_blocksize

2013-11-15 Thread Peter Todd
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:52:21PM +0100, Michael Gronager wrote: Last week I posted a writeup: On the optimal block size and why transaction fees are 8 times too low (or transactions 8 times too big). Peter Todd made some nice additions to it including different pool sizes into the numbers.

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 01:37:56AM -0800, Alex Kravets wrote: Hi guys, Alex, you're top-posting and not trimming your replies. I've seen many many non-geeks be utterly intimidated and confused by 0.000X quantities and/or mBTC uBTC notation Yes, people really can't tell any difference

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Even simpler minimum fee calculation formula: f bounty*fork_rate/average_blocksize

2013-11-15 Thread Peter Todd
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 01:34:07PM +0100, Michael Gronager wrote: Just a quick comment on the actual fees (checked at blockchain.info) the average fee over the last 90 days is actually ~0.0003BTC/txn - so not too far behind the theoretical minimum of 0.00037BTC/txn. How did you get those

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Even simpler minimum fee calculation formula: f bounty*fork_rate/average_blocksize

2013-11-15 Thread Michael Gronager
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Peter, Love to see things put into formulas - nice work! Fully agree on the your fist section: As latency determines maximum block earnings, define a 0-latency (big-miner never orphans his own blocks) island and growing that will of course result

Re: [Bitcoin-development] On the optimal block size and why transaction fees are 8 times too low (or transactions 8 times too big)

2013-11-15 Thread Peter Todd
On Thu, Nov 07, 2013 at 10:58:42PM +0100, Michael Gronager wrote: Q=0- f = 0.0033 BTC/kB Q=0.1 - f = 0.0027 BTC/kB Q=0.25 - f = 0.0018 BTC/kB Q=0.40 - f = 0.0012 BTC/kB You second list of numbers is an unlikely extreme: k = 1mS/kB The propagation latency in the network is more

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Even simpler minimum fee calculation formula: f bounty*fork_rate/average_blocksize

2013-11-15 Thread Peter Todd
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 11:47:53AM +0100, Michael Gronager wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Peter, Love to see things put into formulas - nice work! Fully agree on the your fist section: As latency determines maximum block earnings, define a 0-latency (big-miner

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Even simpler minimum fee calculation formula: f bounty*fork_rate/average_blocksize

2013-11-15 Thread Michael Gronager
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 15/11/13, 11:32 , Peter Todd wrote: alpha = (1/113)*600s/134kBytes = 39.62uS/byte = 24kB/second Which is atrocious... alpha = P_fork*t_block/S = 1/113*454000/134 = 29ms/kb or 272kbit pr second - if you assume this is a bandwidth then I

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Even simpler minimum fee calculation formula: f bounty*fork_rate/average_blocksize

2013-11-15 Thread Michael Gronager
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Q = Total pool size (fraction of all mining power) q = My mining power (do.) e = fraction of block fee that pool reserves Unfortunately the math doesn't work that way. For any Q, a bigger Q gives you a higher return. Remember that the way I

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Even simpler minimum fee calculation formula: f bounty*fork_rate/average_blocksize

2013-11-15 Thread Peter Todd
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 12:58:14PM +0100, Michael Gronager wrote: My Q and q are meant differently, I agree to your Q vs Q-1 argument, but the q is me as a miner participating in a pool Q. If I participate in a pool I pay the pool owner a fraction, e, but at the same time I become part of an

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Even simpler minimum fee calculation formula: f bounty*fork_rate/average_blocksize

2013-11-15 Thread Peter Todd
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 12:47:46PM +0100, Michael Gronager wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 15/11/13, 11:32 , Peter Todd wrote: alpha = (1/113)*600s/134kBytes = 39.62uS/byte = 24kB/second Which is atrocious... alpha = P_fork*t_block/S = 1/113*454000/134 =

[Bitcoin-development] Testnet under attack?

2013-11-15 Thread Mike Belshe
It appears that someone is minting new blocks literally every couple of seconds on the testnet chain right now. You can see it on both blockexplorer: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet and also btclook: http://testnet.btclook.com/ Is this something we should worry about? thanks, Mike

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Testnet under attack?

2013-11-15 Thread Mike Hearn
I don't use testnet much anymore, partly because it sometimes kind of breaks like this. It's a public resource and people sometimes abuse it. You can create your own local network with -regtest and that lets you mint new blocks instantly. It's a much simpler way to do testing and app development.

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Committing to extra block data/a better merge-mine standard

2013-11-15 Thread Peter Todd
On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 11:11:34AM -0800, Mark Friedenbach wrote: Now interpret the bits of that UUID as an allowed path: 0 = left, 1 = right, from the top of the tree. When you build the tree, make sure everything that is going to be committed to uses it's allowed path; the tree will look

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Drak
On 14 November 2013 23:01, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote: I wonder if it might make sense to bundle some other terminology fixups at the same time. A very good idea. Right now, Bitcoin-Qt has been using the term confirmations (plural) to refer to how many blocks deep a transaction is

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Luke-Jr
On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:41:56 AM Drak wrote: So a payment clears after one confirmation, but you might want to wait until the payment has been confirmed n times. Then at least you are not using the same word for two different meanings and you're using stuff more familiar in popular

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Mark Friedenbach
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/15/13 4:41 PM, Drak wrote: For years, people had a problem with email address, instead using email number but they got there eventually. Most people nowadays use email address So payment address or bitcoin address make better sense here

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Jean-Paul Kogelman
On Nov 15, 2013, at 05:10 PM, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote:On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:41:56 AM Drak wrote:So "a payment clears after one confirmation, but you might want to waituntil the payment has been confirmed n times".Then at least you are not using the same word for two different

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Drak
On 16 November 2013 01:10, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote: On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:41:56 AM Drak wrote: So a payment clears after one confirmation, but you might want to wait until the payment has been confirmed n times. Then at least you are not using the same word for two

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Mark Friedenbach
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/15/13 5:19 PM, Drak wrote: Maybe, but again from the user's perspective they pay someone, and they receive money - just like you do with paypal using an email address. The technical bits in the middle dont matter to the user and trying to