Re: [Bitcoin-development] About the small number of bitcoin nodes
On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Raúl Martínez r...@i-rme.es wrote: - Allow users to view the bandwith used by Bitcoin Core: +1 for the sake of transparency HOWEVER, the impact on this feature RE user population is unpredictable. Users may see bigger than expected numbers, and switch off their node. - Educate users about the correct setup of a bitcoin node: +1 - bitcoind and Bitcoin Core should create a bitcoin.conf file on the first Meh. I like example configs, perhaps tuned by the distro. If the distro (_not_ Bitcoin Core upstream) chooses to install a bitcoin.conf in the proper location, that's up to them. - bitcoind and Bitcoin Core should be in Linux repos: Agreed with conditions: 1) The distro MUST let bitcoin devs dictate which dependent libs are shipped with / built statically into the bitcoin binaries/libs. 2) The distro MUST permit fresh updates even to older stable distros. 2) The maintainer(s) MUST be active, and follow bitcoin development, release status, etc. on a near-daily basis, be able to respond quickly if security issues arise, etc. Matt C seems to do a good job of this in Ubuntu PPA, I'm told. - Create a grafical interface for bitcoind on Linux servers: When I say grafical interface I mean like top command, an interface made out of characters in ASCII. The best path for this is figure out what statistics you want to see, and have bitcoind export those raw numbers to any willing consumer. Then write your bitcoind-top on top of that. - Split Bitcoin Wallet from Bitcoin Node: +1 In progress. Disable-wallet support, at compile time or runtime, was the first step. - Inform users if 8333 port is closed: +1 - Keep connections if bitcoind is restarted: I noticed that if I restart bitcoind (to apply new config) my reset to 0 and take some hours to rise up to ~40. I believe that my peers should notice that I am down for less than ~15 minutes and try to connect again faster. No, you don't want this (and it's not possible in many cases anyway). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Paper Currency
Practically I would approach it from a different angle. We need to make sure that notes we're accepting are still loaded, but assuming it's NFC enabled this is still quite easy for the user and is an acceptable usability drawback. Then what we need to make sure is that when someone is redeeming the notes - he has control over physical object itself, ideally for a period of time. With some active powered electronics in place it would be easy, but how do we do it without anything active in place? Best regards, Alex Kotenko 2014-05-18 21:10 GMT+01:00 Natanael natanae...@gmail.com: The problem with not involving any electronics is that somebody needs to generate a recoverable private key that we have to trust haven't recovered the private key. The only plausible solution is multisignature P2SH addresses where you trust several independent entities to not collude instead, where you combine their paper notes into one piece. And then you still don't know if all the private keys are recoverable to you (failed print?). - Sent from my phone Den 18 maj 2014 20:48 skrev Alex Kotenko alexy...@gmail.com: Erm, few things here. - I can't see really how to embed electronics capable to run an SPV client into printed paper. I know that passive NFC tags can be printed on paper, but not actual chips and/or power modules. So we are talking about a completely different things here. - even with paper notes printed proprietarily by some business the notes itself still can have routes for independent blockchain-based verification, and you won't need to trust anybody to test it. You will have to trust security of the notes itself, but this is same as when you trust the phone manufacturer when you're putting your bitcoin wallet on it. So really I see only issues of technical security in here, and this is the problem I'm seeking solutions for. Best regards, Alex Kotenko 2014-05-18 14:50 GMT+01:00 Natanael natanae...@gmail.com: Now you are talking about Trusted Platform Modules. Like smartcards, actually. Devices that won't leak their keys but let the holder spend the coins. It could even have it's own simple SPV wallet client to make it easier to handle. And they'd use the attestation features provided by the TPM to prove the software it's unmodified top the current holder. But then you still have to trust the manufacturer of the device, and you have to trust it has no exploitable side channels. - Sent from my phone Den 18 maj 2014 13:52 skrev Alex Kotenko alexy...@gmail.com: -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] About the small number of bitcoin nodes
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote: Some hacking with ncurses could quickly make a decent tool here. It could be packaged with bitcoin itself but that's not necessary. For example Tor has the tool 'arm' which is a separate package. Regarding tor-arm, here are some screenshots: https://www.atagar.com/arm/screenshots.php It shows, among other things: - bandwidth up/down graphs - CPU usage - debug logging (in real time) - connected peers+statistics - currently active configuration Would be nice to have a similar tool for bitcoind. Wladimir -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] About the small number of bitcoin nodes
Is the small number of bitcoin nodes a concern? If yes, why? What kind of attack can the network suffer? And where can we find statistical information about the full nodes running? I guess the only effective incentive to keep a node running would be financial. A kind of proof of stake would be nice on bitcoin. But I have no idea how to begin with. Felipe Micaroni Lalli Walltime: https://walltime.info Bitcoin Paranoid Android developer PGP ID: 0x4c0afccfed5cde14 BTC: 1LipeR1AjHL6gwE7WQECW4a2H4tuqm768N On 19/05/2014, at 07:39, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote: Some hacking with ncurses could quickly make a decent tool here. It could be packaged with bitcoin itself but that's not necessary. For example Tor has the tool 'arm' which is a separate package. Regarding tor-arm, here are some screenshots: https://www.atagar.com/arm/screenshots.php It shows, among other things: - bandwidth up/down graphs - CPU usage - debug logging (in real time) - connected peers+statistics - currently active configuration Would be nice to have a similar tool for bitcoind. Wladimir -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Paper Currency
Submitted with humility and some fear of getting laughed out of here... Off topic aside, a bunch of us have lately started to think about the atmosphere on this list and how to improve it. Nobody should have to fear getting flamed or laughed at for proposing ideas, even if they turn out to be silly ones. Gavin talked about this in his Bitcoin 2014 keynote and asked for someone to solve the forum trolling problem. I don't know if there are any silver bullets per se, but: 1) Please do keep ideas coming. It's easy to mute threads in any good mail client for people who don't care. If anyone gets too aggressive, the rest of us will remind them that this is unacceptable. 2) If you're willing to become a list moderator, please get in touch. Gavin and I are looking for neutral people who are willing to keep up with this list and help ensure the debate is civilised. Ideally moderation is not necessary, but that's what we tried so far and we keep getting consistent feedback from lots of people that it's not working. -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] About the small number of bitcoin nodes
On 19/05/14 14:15, Mike Hearn wrote: As an interested party not intimately familiar with the bitcoin codebase who also spent some time setting up a node a while ago, I would like to add one thing to the above list - network rate limiting. The problem is that this is easier said than done. Bitcoin Core won't notice a remote peer is working but slow and switch to a faster one, and even if it did, it'd just mean throttling your connection would cause all remote nodes to give up and hit the other unthrottled peers even more. Does this mean that you can currently actively hurt the network by adding a node with a very slow upstream / downstream? If so, what is the recommended minimum amount of bandwidth you should allocate for a node? I've already throttled mine with QoS based on the script in the contrib/ folder. Bjørn Øivind signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] About the small number of bitcoin nodes
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Bjørn Øivind Bjørnsen bo.bjorn...@gmail.com wrote: On 18/05/14 19:43, Raúl Martínez wrote: snip some good ideas As an interested party not intimately familiar with the bitcoin codebase who also spent some time setting up a node a while ago, I would like to add one thing to the above list - network rate limiting. There is already an (old) patch that implements that. It won't be merged, though, until headers-first and parallel block download is in. Only when the node can download blocks from multiple peers at once it is really safe to allow limiting rates. (sure - there are tricks to limit rates anyway, like the script in contrib/qos, but to have it generally available the block download needs to be more robust first) Wladimir -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] About the small number of bitcoin nodes
(sure - there are tricks to limit rates anyway, like the script in contrib/qos, but to have it generally available the block download needs to be more robust first) One thing we could consider as a short term solution (if headers first+parallel downloading will take a while, which seems plausible) is to add a service bit that says I have chain data and am willing to Bloom filter it for you, but I won't serve full block data, and then just exclude all of those from the chain download logic. It should not be a deep change to the code headers first is impacting, and would allow home users who may have no tolerance for block chain uploads at all to still take part and offer useful services to the network. I know Pieter likes the idea of an archival node service bit, or something like that. I'd been thinking that the stored chain height value would be better, but perhaps we need to divorce I have CPU and can filter from I have bandwidth and can serve more vigorously. -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Paper Currency
Alex, I think that what you are talking about more or less something like the Firmcoin Check: http://firmcoin.com/?p=92 On 18/05/2014 08:47 a.m., Alex Kotenko wrote: One problem we couldn't figure out here though - how to protect the notes from unauthorized redeem. Like if someone else tries to reach your wallet with his own NFC - how can we distinguish between deliberate redeem by owner and fraudulent redeem by anybody else with custom built long range NFC antenna? Any ideas? The firmcoin has two capacitive buttons that you have to press in sequence to redeem to coins. No long range antenna can do that. Best regards, Sergio. PS: the device has patents pending -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Paper Currency
2014-05-18 13:14 GMT+01:00 Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de: One problem we couldn't figure out here though - how to protect the notes from unauthorized redeem. Like if someone else tries to reach your wallet with his own NFC - how can we distinguish between deliberate redeem by owner and fraudulent redeem by anybody else with custom built long range NFC antenna? Any ideas? I think you'd need multiple factors to protect against that attack. Like encrypting with a key that is printed on the note as an QR code. On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Alex Kotenko alexy...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, but it must not sacrifice usability. It's paper money, people are used to it and they have rather high standard of expectations in this area. Any usbility sacrifices in this area result into failure of the whole thing. Best regards, Alex Kotenko One thought I had reading through this exchange: I think the general public is becoming more aware of the hacker with a long range antenna sort of attack, since credit cards are getting microchips that can be scanned. There's a few videos I've seen of white hat hackers demonstrating how a suitcase-sized apparatus carried by someone walking down the street can scan and make charges on cards in people's pockets as the attacker brushes past. Hence RFID-blocking sleeves/wallets are on the market, such that your smart credit card can't make a purchase while its in your wallet. Is a RFID-blocking wallet also NFC-blocking? Irregardless of whatever future cash you choose to carry (be it credit card or bitcoin card/coin/cash), perhaps its the wallet/purse that needs an upgrade, to ensure your money doesn't spend itself while its in your pocket, but you can easily remove it and spend it conveniently? Brooks -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Paper Currency
Asking random ignorant stranger to care to protect themselves never works. We need solution that requires strictly zero effort. Best regards, Alex Kotenko 2014-05-19 14:06 GMT+01:00 Brooks Boyd bo...@midnightdesign.ws: 2014-05-18 13:14 GMT+01:00 Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de: One problem we couldn't figure out here though - how to protect the notes from unauthorized redeem. Like if someone else tries to reach your wallet with his own NFC - how can we distinguish between deliberate redeem by owner and fraudulent redeem by anybody else with custom built long range NFC antenna? Any ideas? I think you'd need multiple factors to protect against that attack. Like encrypting with a key that is printed on the note as an QR code. On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Alex Kotenko alexy...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, but it must not sacrifice usability. It's paper money, people are used to it and they have rather high standard of expectations in this area. Any usbility sacrifices in this area result into failure of the whole thing. Best regards, Alex Kotenko One thought I had reading through this exchange: I think the general public is becoming more aware of the hacker with a long range antenna sort of attack, since credit cards are getting microchips that can be scanned. There's a few videos I've seen of white hat hackers demonstrating how a suitcase-sized apparatus carried by someone walking down the street can scan and make charges on cards in people's pockets as the attacker brushes past. Hence RFID-blocking sleeves/wallets are on the market, such that your smart credit card can't make a purchase while its in your wallet. Is a RFID-blocking wallet also NFC-blocking? Irregardless of whatever future cash you choose to carry (be it credit card or bitcoin card/coin/cash), perhaps its the wallet/purse that needs an upgrade, to ensure your money doesn't spend itself while its in your pocket, but you can easily remove it and spend it conveniently? Brooks -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Paper Currency
Alex, I think the problem of making paper bitcoins is equivalent to the idea of creating paper implementation of bitcoin sidechain. Hard one in my mind. If we could resolve this one in secure and decentralized way it would be the same breakthrough as bitcoin itself is. Martin Sip On 18/05/2014 08:47 a.m., Alex Kotenko wrote: One problem we couldn't figure out here though - how to protect the notes from unauthorized redeem. Like if someone else tries to reach your wallet with his own NFC - how can we distinguish between deliberate redeem by owner and fraudulent redeem by anybody else with custom built long range NFC antenna? Any ideas? The firmcoin has two capacitive buttons that you have to press in sequence to redeem to coins. No long range antenna can do that. Best regards, Sergio. PS: the device has patents pending -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Paper Currency
Hmm, this is firmcoin thing looks like what I mean. They don't have a solution yet, and prices they quote smartcards are unacceptable, but if they will manage to get down in selfcost - that may work. Ok, I'll follow them and see what it will come to. Best regards, Alex Kotenko 2014-05-19 13:55 GMT+01:00 Sergio Lerner sergioler...@certimix.com: Alex, I think that what you are talking about more or less something like the Firmcoin Check: http://firmcoin.com/?p=92 On 18/05/2014 08:47 a.m., Alex Kotenko wrote: One problem we couldn't figure out here though - how to protect the notes from unauthorized redeem. Like if someone else tries to reach your wallet with his own NFC - how can we distinguish between deliberate redeem by owner and fraudulent redeem by anybody else with custom built long range NFC antenna? Any ideas? The firmcoin has two capacitive buttons that you have to press in sequence to redeem to coins. No long range antenna can do that. Best regards, Sergio. PS: the device has patents pending -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] About the small number of bitcoin nodes
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 3:11 AM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Raúl Martínez r...@i-rme.es wrote: - bitcoind and Bitcoin Core should be in Linux repos: Agreed with conditions: 1) The distro MUST let bitcoin devs dictate which dependent libs are shipped with / built statically into the bitcoin binaries/libs. 2) The distro MUST permit fresh updates even to older stable distros. 2) The maintainer(s) MUST be active, and follow bitcoin development, release status, etc. on a near-daily basis, be able to respond quickly if security issues arise, etc. Matt C seems to do a good job of this in Ubuntu PPA, I'm told. Update: (1) and (3) are doable, however, Debian and Ubuntu policies make (2) very difficult (with the exception of security patches). Micha Bailey and I worked to get bitcoin removed from Debian and Ubuntu stable releases because they would not allow (2). There are other mechanisms that could accomplish (2) (backports, volatile, and updates repositories), however they are not enabled by default and require user intervention. Debian unstable does allow (2) since there is no release, and there is a package in Debian unstable. That package is blocked from transitioning to a stable release. We've also blacklisted it from Ubuntu so that Ubuntu doesn't just autoimport and release the Debian unstable package in an Ubuntu stable release. Micha is also working to have all old versions of bitcoin removed from previous released Ubuntu versions. Matt C's PPA is the best way of getting (1-3) above on Ubuntu, and the Debian unstable package is probably the best way of getting (1-3) above in Debian. Both require users to add a line to their apt sources list; the Debian package would also require apt pinning. Regards, Scott -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
[Bitcoin-development] patents...
someone recently wrote (not pointing fingers, nor demanding a spirited defense from that person, its a generic comment): PS: the device has patents pending btw about patents, I wonder if people who feel the need to do that, would you consider putting those patents into like a linux foundation defensive pool? I imagine a number of other bitcoin companies have patented things, but if you think ahead a little bit, or look at prior ecash history, patents held by individuals or companies can be outright dangerous. We saw this in the past eg the digicash patents after the company went bankrupt were sold by the investor to some random large company that parked it in its huge pile of patents, didnt use it, and prevented anyone else from using it - stalling Chaum dependent payment innovation for perhaps 5 years until the thing expired, and a Chaum patent expiry party was held. Just some food for thought. hmm Yes and this topic now is more than a bit non dev related. Sorry about that. There seems to be no convenient mailing list format for non-dev stuff or I would Cc and set Reply-To for example? (Web forums somewhat suck IMO). Adam -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] patents...
IMO this list is fine for discussing such topics. Here are some thoughts. I had to deal with patents at Google (my name is on a few, not my choice unfortunately). Many aspects of patent law are deeply unintuitive, so here's the crash course as I was given it. The first rule of patents is *you do not go looking for patents*. US law is written in a really stupid way, such that if you knowingly infringe, damages triple. Because America uses the patent office as a revenue source, basically everything you can possibly imagine is covered by some ridiculous patent so if you go looking you will always find applicable patents on every idea and then you end up potentially much worse off. Most companies (Google certainly included) have therefore banned their staff from reading patents, thus ensuring that the whole point of them, the sharing of knowledge, doesn't actually function! And it's much better I think if we follow the same policy. So *please do not ever mention that suchandsuch is patented on this list*! When it comes to patent law, ignorance is bliss. Patents are written in a heavily obfuscated manner such that actually trying to learn from them is hard work anyway. One reason I wrote up the contracts stuff when I did is to get it out there into the public domain, so people couldn't patent the basics of the Bitcoin protocol. It'll be much better for everyone if new ideas are just put right out into the public domain. *Please do not patent Bitcoin related research you do*, even if you think it's for the best: 1) Defensive patenting doesn't work. The whole idea was mutually assured destruction, you hit me I'll hit you type of logic, but the prevalence of shell/troll companies killed off that idea. Plus it turns out that big companies are quite willing to sue each other into oblivion anyway. Once a patent exists, it'll be used as a weapon by someone eventually, and attempting to fight back is probably not a workable strategy. Far better to ensure the material is simply unpatentable by anyone. 2) Patenting with the intention to sue people using Bitcoin in the same way: well, if you plan to do this, there's not much to talk about you won't make any friends this way. -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Paper Currency
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/19/2014 02:21 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: Submitted with humility and some fear of getting laughed out of here... Off topic aside, a bunch of us have lately started to think about the atmosphere on this list and how to improve it. Nobody should have to fear getting flamed or laughed at for proposing ideas, even if they turn out to be silly ones. Gavin talked about this in his Bitcoin 2014 keynote and asked for someone to solve the forum trolling problem. You and Gavin could do a lot better by working on a Bitcoin social contract - a promise of what features will *never* be added (or taken away) from Bitcoin, because despite what you say it's not acceptable to propose anything at all. Maybe start with things like how the Bitcoin protocol will never be changed to allow for confiscation of funds, regardless of who might demand such a feature. You are willing to promise all users of Bitcoin that you'll never propose to steal their coins, aren't you? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTekt4AAoJEMP3uyY4RQ214QgIAM3DdtAUTG63FG/r9Yg4dWb+ TXWoXRd9AYDg/SAirF6qV+r6K0vohMv8UJhCpX0OnNSOfxKcgVt2CnG8i3iWBRu1 V+LRFmaHkJ+vJLaR2lEdFKMc2DVuZUIXGH6jEgVo/dzFJGZ/GcoUwTBrZztjCHDy WbpuuIfV2ya1bqkhMOn78pDgkDfXBD7qWQsz0MTzSkPitT0AnUEPxCl3KBWizkdH shGwE4YNhRSX+yTBaFHVMqFb9LzExEWgIgkgghddKfJzj9REcw6wiotD3DvYaDl7 LPegCttg0vdG4YTVlTH0iMwFYC3qrw/Ab43uqLjTy7aWyFjhsPtKceTE3KpGDrk= =dRhy -END PGP SIGNATURE- 0x38450DB5.asc Description: application/pgp-keys -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] patents...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 19 May 2014 17:09:07 CEST, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: The first rule of patents is *you do not go looking for patents*. US law is written in a really stupid way, such that if you knowingly infringe, damages triple. Because America uses the patent office as a revenue source, basically everything you can possibly imagine is covered by some ridiculous patent so if you go looking you will always find applicable patents on every idea and then you end up potentially much worse off. Most companies (Google certainly included) have therefore banned their staff from reading patents, thus ensuring that the whole point of them, the sharing of knowledge, doesn't actually function! And it's much better I think if we follow the same policy. So *please do not ever mention that suchandsuch is patented on this list*! When it comes to patent law, ignorance is bliss. Patents are written in a heavily obfuscated manner such that actually trying to learn from them is hard work anyway. Meh. The world is much bigger than the USA. Secondly that rule makes it difficult to educate people about why patents are as bad as they are. Feel free to continue censoring your own discussion within closed corporate environments. But to say keeping patent discussion off mailing lists is appropriate or wise when the tech news is full of such discussion is silly. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: APG v1.1.1 iQFQBAEBCAA6BQJTekz8MxxQZXRlciBUb2RkIChsb3cgc2VjdXJpdHkga2V5KSA8 cGV0ZUBwZXRlcnRvZGQub3JnPgAKCRAZnIM7qOfwhX0TB/wNZoi5sWj6n3fM7O7T emVbrVpuBwOvUEJAFYGmXgb2KXGdheVRhXfcwteQybLG+M+Ra/HAqLq+1YrPmopE QeldiSc31KAkVLYXQMIfD6QO1PBlvKP7qPLqBEpCc9ocd8XLppTPQ2K8o5soV8VF z6Jt/Hh74xhkhhb/kEzsQ8YKkg+m26WY9Yggu0Qxtb0OTjL86IhEKpH9ijr08jvV TKs+PHwou5rt0dT3vqLd8ogb7xihTPx/7tciaXHCOfvxGsEgtqdTsjdHlCJ6cR9a DrZcrIQnX+s1+YbHs3P4kyBfzNHBwwVuwaf5W5pU6vFp276jhsgT/65J7PqoRmxK AkXg =dk4R -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Paper Currency
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 19 May 2014 20:20:40 CEST, Justus Ranvier justusranv...@gmail.com wrote: You and Gavin could do a lot better by working on a Bitcoin social contract - a promise of what features will *never* be added (or taken away) from Bitcoin, because despite what you say it's not acceptable to propose anything at all. Maybe start with things like how the Bitcoin protocol will never be changed to allow for confiscation of funds, regardless of who might demand such a feature. Might be worth looking into the recent RFC 7258: Pervasive Monitoring Is an Attack for some guidance on how to write such a social contract. Re: Gavin, note the language in the foundation bylaws: Section 2.2 The Corporation shall promote and protect both the decentralized, distributed and private nature of the Bitcoin distributed-digital currency and transaction system as well as individual choice, participation and financial privacy when using such systems. You might want to do a pull-req to add fungibility and rejection of blacklists to that list; note Adam Back's comments on how fungibility and privacy are inherently linked. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: APG v1.1.1 iQFQBAEBCAA6BQJTek/ZMxxQZXRlciBUb2RkIChsb3cgc2VjdXJpdHkga2V5KSA8 cGV0ZUBwZXRlcnRvZGQub3JnPgAKCRAZnIM7qOfwhYPIB/9/mhDOei8uMGHmzK41 YdL2ezs4LMPLyCRbo9Eu7MDJAMBaMH4VUbomR0tJVPRS191ifa2F/xGYnbDvk/PG rLX86uPPMBxZqnVMgZLeKJkUHm3Zlkm1Ti58bMR8VVQuPazBBpkYtsvk+0+8j9su ke7Xq+OqUGOC03bM4bxtKyBCy1FrCJuFgZEywKhOjr6boANLctDRBZerPqQ4AcjP tHSAAImcesMhjc/N9LJ4MeygszzblYpdsQeiw8jvvyZI7vCSHuKb+hur+kCszYjD ygfY9QmoNye2yc0GLZd+kXSMwY6gLIvaAFhv2ElMTMiJ7btHtJJfyEaA9Ub4zEEY JKeO =DSjZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] patents...
Meh. The world is much bigger than the USA. Secondly that rule makes it difficult to educate people about why patents are as bad as they are. You can easily find examples that are not relevant to Bitcoin if you want to discuss the patent system in general. Feel free to continue censoring your own discussion within closed corporate environments. But to say keeping patent discussion off mailing lists is appropriate or wise when the tech news is full of such discussion is silly. It is both appropriate and wise. Please keep discussion of Bitcoin-relevant patents elsewhere. -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] patents...
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: The first rule of patents is you do not go looking for patents. US law is written in a really stupid way, such that if you knowingly infringe, damages triple. Because America uses the patent office as a revenue source, You have received outdated advice on this point. In Re Seagate (http://patentlyo.com/patent/2007/08/in-re-seagate-t.html) this precident was over-turned (and has subsequently been upheld in other cases). Avoiding willfull infringement no longer requires paying off a patent attorney to get a freedom to operate review. This isn't to say that reading patents is always productive now: They're often nearly inscrutable (especially to people without substantial patent reading experience), and you may discover potential infringement that creates more work for you to sort out (especially since people without patent experience tend to read patents much more broadly than they actually are). There are other defensive approaches which are interesting than hoping to use patents as a counter attack: For one— filing a patent gets the work entered in the only database that USPTO examiners are _guaranteed_ to consult when doing a prior art search, so it may have a fighting chance of precluding someone else patenting the same material later (they may also search the internet and use other resources, but they're guaranteed to consult the existing patents and applications). Patents can also be used defensively as leverage in a licensing negotiation: Without your own patents you don't get invited to the negotiating table at all with someone else who may hold patents in a space that you're working on. These are somewhat thin advantages so great care is required to make sure that things are setup so that badness cannot happen later when inevitable changes of ownership happen. -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] patents...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 19 May 2014 20:43:15 CEST, Gregory Maxwell gmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: There are other defensive approaches which are interesting than hoping to use patents as a counter attack: For one— filing a patent gets the work entered in the only database that USPTO examiners are _guaranteed_ to consult when doing a prior art search, so it may have a fighting chance of precluding someone else patenting the same material later (they may also search the internet and use other resources, but they're guaranteed to consult the existing patents and applications). Interesting. Is that to say a viable strategy would be to apply for patents and let the application lapse? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: APG v1.1.1 iQFQBAEBCAA6BQJTelGCMxxQZXRlciBUb2RkIChsb3cgc2VjdXJpdHkga2V5KSA8 cGV0ZUBwZXRlcnRvZGQub3JnPgAKCRAZnIM7qOfwhQPlCACjJgJEyMYMtF+/dJJh TgWfVuE7E7QmwgWoQMBo7/5LgO1W5PQt9d3jfQ7gkrdCqTWs4HtA3lcgjdeEQ6ZW QvMFG5/xITVi85v2zlE9CteQZXLBTSI+J7VlkjqnJeftQkklvGjiDtNfaDDsTacV ZNem06V4fmBxNgzqmit2Roilp+NMQb2iM9Ofkr5FbI0cT/kzD/IJd2+Crqsu/uDU 8r2YQY0bbEf2wqxVdq5TSf1rFqqnWKHB3lD1GGRJ8n5BciBmysZL43jct8YABSgi BHFpJP2ii7gz076mRiBb+KwCo+1xKUYNpsJk1m7HND7PjqkXps+JHiNaWdr9vAxx raFO =L1oX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] patents...
Avoiding willfull infringement no longer requires paying off a patent attorney to get a freedom to operate review. This isn't to say that reading patents is always productive That case raised the bar a bit, but the core problem remains - if you learn about a patent you definitely violate (and there is very likely to be at least one and possibly many), via whatever means, then by continuing business you become a wilful violator. Which makes sense: how could it be any other way? It still never makes sense to read patents. You can only lose. -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
[Bitcoin-development] Working on social contracts (was: Paper Currency)
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Justus Ranvier justusranv...@gmail.comwrote: You and Gavin could do a lot better by working on a Bitcoin social contract - a promise of what features will *never* be added (or taken away) from Bitcoin, because despite what you say it's not acceptable to propose anything at all. Now I'm really confused. Why would Mike or I have the authority to write a social contract to promise anything about future-Bitcoin? I thought the only social contract was the decentralized one we have already-- if you don't like something about the code, then don't download and run it. Or fork it if you're able. As the person who started this mailing list, I DO feel like I have the authority to enforce a social contract of no trolling or flaming or name-calling here. I'd very much like to delegate that authority, though; ideally to some software algorithm that automatically censors topics or people who don't contribute to a productive discussion. PS: speaking of productive discussion... ... please change the Subject line when the topic wanders. -- -- Gavin Andresen -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Working on social contracts (was: Paper Currency)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/19/2014 09:41 PM, Gavin Andresen wrote: Now I'm really confused. Why would Mike or I have the authority to write a social contract to promise anything about future-Bitcoin? YOU can make promises about YOUR future behavior. So can everyone else. The rest of the community can keep track of which developers will and will not make promises about what changes they will and will not attempt to implement in Bitcoin, and they can use that information to make informed decisions about which software they will choose to support. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTemMNAAoJEMP3uyY4RQ21KJMH/1MbnPxZ42sjVjEiGSQBkGfE E3jt8aAf2DTza8xtybSmT/pHVhx/VUT4UNj9oBZayqJ1eUNr6YMgGCP8J+DxBtN+ mYH4lTnCiR4+hjO9aux0AWFV+hfZSq7A41QH6wymLa5CyywOtc+i7i3qU5ZGrbtX 9yBrQpFilvMIlrAOBDlXUwb06FDK17ZHHX4V5sI8PSRYJvoiWCrk12Vqj1Z95UOy ayzWGwbO30ky6lGirBXfpu2e2WJADE9sc43ecNCDplUMR4D4n9jwAUldEiMSBKg2 pwUNcfj1gaKkscj4QmGKMbq6yug+lrSa8qq/jFsbQq+2pqT4VjlQlrN52wz7Yeg= =Jafe -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Working on social contracts (was: Paper Currency)
Sorry. I will never agree to the concept of a relevant idea so dangerous it cannot be discussed. That's medieval thinking. If you would like to create a parallel development forum where people have to swear an oath not to think bad thoughts, go right ahead and do so. But I'm glad to see you correctly identified yourself as one of the people causing problems on this list. Your vicious attacks are one of the reasons we're now seeing threads that start with I hope I don't get flamed or laughed at for this idea but which is totally unacceptable. I would prefer you just unsubscribe, in the hope we get a second chance from some of the potential developers we've lost. -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Working on social contracts (was: Paper Currency)
Okey dokey: I hereby promise and solemnly swear on pain of atomic wedgie that I will never ever work on or endorse any changes to the Bitcoin system that would enable any person or group to confiscate, blacklist, or devalue any other person or group's bitcoin. RE: writing an RFC: go for it. I have much higher tasks on my TODO list. -- -- Gavin Andresen -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Working on social contracts (was: Paper Currency)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/19/2014 10:06 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: Sorry. I will never agree to the concept of a relevant idea so dangerous it cannot be discussed. That's medieval thinking. If you would like to create a parallel development forum where people have to swear an oath not to think bad thoughts, go right ahead and do so. But I'm glad to see you correctly identified yourself as one of the people causing problems on this list. Your vicious attacks are one of the reasons we're now seeing threads that start with I hope I don't get flamed or laughed at for this idea but which is totally unacceptable. I would prefer you just unsubscribe, in the hope we get a second chance from some of the potential developers we've lost. I'm glad to see you correctly identified yourself as well. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTemXNAAoJEMP3uyY4RQ21KNUH/12vTPOPNjQQIunTkNCSqV6P hub7mrW/hS4NSlK7P3Laq5qj+qB9ou/uIRCPP6uIhk6scicbukn31nw1p/er0YoQ XGFE+SmF+Z5Ysz/5uA1OP9VdjBKggbI6rFVZKbt5DwrFK0gCDMtgcxO2y6CFGR+U mFhD9ORf/NdAozFanXSEk81p5OfZqhhnxaPPpPnwQeojtLwE20reLrEcCKy6XMEs Mtfan+qgPJYTmWiWmDHsrFsz+5HwpkR5giDf4hzW5J1F8Vj+LTPXjGz9Txldk89t 0dRmYFAtE74QgXsIRvWny9ho4YL/Nn+WHf0Qf3HKh31wrzSea0KFKpPaa32xpKA= =jIov -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] DNS seeds unstable
Hmm, I've mostly setup what's promised, testing DNS seeds now. There is one problem I see that I can't really solve myself. This dnsseed daemon cannot serve more than one name at once, which means that I cannot serve testnet and mainnet seeds off one daemon instance which means I need to buy two IP addresses for it. That's unfortunate as it needs much more spendings from me to operate, second IP address will cost nearly as much as the server itself. Can anybody help with this? I cannot into C++ to fix that myself. Best regards, Alex Kotenko 2014-05-17 13:39 GMT+01:00 Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de: On 05/17/2014 02:02 PM, Alex Kotenko wrote: So, my understanding is that atm we have no working DNS seeds at the testnet3, right? There are two DNS seeds known, of which one is unreachable atm, and another one is giving just one IP address, which is also a dead node. Yes, that's my understanding too. If I'll start a DNS seed of my own and make sure it works well, will this help? Yes, definately. I've found this DNS seeder daemon https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder, and it seems to be exactly what I need to run a DNS seeder myself. Afaik this is what most of the other seeds are using, yes. So if my understanding is correct, I'll setup a DNS seeds for mainnet and for testnet at bitcoin-seed.alexykot.me http://bitcoin-seed.alexykot.me and testnet-seed.alexykot.me http://testnet-seed.alexykot.me, and also a well connected nodes for mainnet and testnet on the same server. Is this a good plan? Will this all help? Sound great! Let me know if you've got something to test. -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] DNS seeds unstable
Well, it's possible theoretically, but will need another piece of custom software that will understand DNS protocol and proxy it correctly based on actual incoming DNS queries. On 19 May 2014 21:22, Michael Wozniak m...@osfda.org wrote: I’m not familiar with how the daemon works, however could you set up two daemons listening local on different ports and with a separate daemon or normal dns server that proxies incoming queries to either domain? I don’t know if standard DNS servers would support that, or if you would need a custom proxy application. - Michael Wozniak On May 19, 2014, at 4:14 PM, Alex Kotenko alexy...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm, I've mostly setup what's promised, testing DNS seeds now. There is one problem I see that I can't really solve myself. This dnsseed daemon cannot serve more than one name at once, which means that I cannot serve testnet and mainnet seeds off one daemon instance which means I need to buy two IP addresses for it. That's unfortunate as it needs much more spendings from me to operate, second IP address will cost nearly as much as the server itself. Can anybody help with this? I cannot into C++ to fix that myself. Best regards, Alex Kotenko 2014-05-17 13:39 GMT+01:00 Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de: On 05/17/2014 02:02 PM, Alex Kotenko wrote: So, my understanding is that atm we have no working DNS seeds at the testnet3, right? There are two DNS seeds known, of which one is unreachable atm, and another one is giving just one IP address, which is also a dead node. Yes, that's my understanding too. If I'll start a DNS seed of my own and make sure it works well, will this help? Yes, definately. I've found this DNS seeder daemon https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder, and it seems to be exactly what I need to run a DNS seeder myself. Afaik this is what most of the other seeds are using, yes. So if my understanding is correct, I'll setup a DNS seeds for mainnet and for testnet at bitcoin-seed.alexykot.me http://bitcoin-seed.alexykot.me and testnet-seed.alexykot.me http://testnet-seed.alexykot.me, and also a well connected nodes for mainnet and testnet on the same server. Is this a good plan? Will this all help? Sound great! Let me know if you've got something to test. -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] DNS seeds unstable
I’m not familiar with how the daemon works, however could you set up two daemons listening local on different ports and with a separate daemon or normal dns server that proxies incoming queries to either domain? I don’t know if standard DNS servers would support that, or if you would need a custom proxy application. - Michael Wozniak On May 19, 2014, at 4:14 PM, Alex Kotenko alexy...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm, I've mostly setup what's promised, testing DNS seeds now. There is one problem I see that I can't really solve myself. This dnsseed daemon cannot serve more than one name at once, which means that I cannot serve testnet and mainnet seeds off one daemon instance which means I need to buy two IP addresses for it. That's unfortunate as it needs much more spendings from me to operate, second IP address will cost nearly as much as the server itself. Can anybody help with this? I cannot into C++ to fix that myself. Best regards, Alex Kotenko 2014-05-17 13:39 GMT+01:00 Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de: On 05/17/2014 02:02 PM, Alex Kotenko wrote: So, my understanding is that atm we have no working DNS seeds at the testnet3, right? There are two DNS seeds known, of which one is unreachable atm, and another one is giving just one IP address, which is also a dead node. Yes, that's my understanding too. If I'll start a DNS seed of my own and make sure it works well, will this help? Yes, definately. I've found this DNS seeder daemon https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder, and it seems to be exactly what I need to run a DNS seeder myself. Afaik this is what most of the other seeds are using, yes. So if my understanding is correct, I'll setup a DNS seeds for mainnet and for testnet at bitcoin-seed.alexykot.me http://bitcoin-seed.alexykot.me and testnet-seed.alexykot.me http://testnet-seed.alexykot.me, and also a well connected nodes for mainnet and testnet on the same server. Is this a good plan? Will this all help? Sound great! Let me know if you've got something to test. -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] DNS seeds unstable
It should be possible to configure bind as a DNS forwarder.. this can be done in a zone context.. then you can forward the different zones to different dnsseed daemons running on different non-public IPs or two different ports on the same IP (or on one single non-public IP since there's really no reason to expose the dnsseed directly daemon at all). Rob On Mon, 19 May 2014 21:14:32 +0100, Alex Kotenko wrote: Hmm, Ive mostly setup whats promised, testing DNS seeds now. There is one problem I see that I cant really solve myself. This dnsseed daemon cannot serve more than one name at once, which means that I cannot serve testnet and mainnet seeds off one daemon instance which means I need to buy two IP addresses for it. Thats unfortunate as it needs much more spendings from me to operate, second IP address will cost nearly as much as the server itself. Can anybody help with this? I cannot into C++ to fix that myself. Best regards, Alex Kotenko 2014-05-17 13:39 GMT+01:00 Andreas Schildbach : On 05/17/2014 02:02 PM, Alex Kotenko wrote: So, my understanding is that atm we have no working DNS seeds at the testnet3, right? There are two DNS seeds known, of which one is unreachable atm, and another one is giving just one IP address, which is also a dead node. Yes, thats my understanding too. If Ill start a DNS seed of my own and make sure it works well, will this help? Yes, definately. Ive found this DNS seeder daemon , and it seems to be exactly what I need to run a DNS seeder myself. Afaik this is what most of the other seeds are using, yes. So if my understanding is correct, Ill setup a DNS seeds for mainnet and for testnet at bitcoin-seed.alexykot.me [2] and testnet-seed.alexykot.me [4] , and also a well connected nodes for mainnet and testnet on the same server. Is this a good plan? Will this all help? Sound great! Let me know if youve got something to test. -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs [6] ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net [7] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development [8] Links: -- [1] https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder [2] http://bitcoin-seed.alexykot.me [3] http://bitcoin-seed.alexykot.me [4] http://testnet-seed.alexykot.me [5] http://testnet-seed.alexykot.me [6] http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs [7] mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net [8] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development [9] mailto:andr...@schildbach.de -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Working on social contracts (was: Paper Currency)
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Justus Ranvier justusranv...@gmail.com wrote: YOU can make promises about YOUR future behavior. So can everyone else. The rest of the community can keep track of which developers will and will not make promises about what changes they will and will not attempt to implement in Bitcoin, and they can use that information to make informed decisions about which software they will choose to support. I promise that if bad people show up with a sufficient pointy gun that I'll do whatever they tell me to do. I'll make bad proposals, submit backdoors, and argue with querulous folks on mailing lists, diverting them from real development and review work, all as commanded. Maybe I'll try to sneak out a warning of some kind, maybe... but with my life or my families or friends lives on the line— probably not. ... and I think that anyone who tells you otherwise probably just hasn't really thought it through. So what is the point of commitments like that? People change, people go crazy, people are coerced. Crap happens, justifications are made, life goes on— or so we hope. What matters is building infrastructure— both social and technical— that is robust against those sorts of failures. If you're depending on individual developers (including anonymous parties and volunteers) to be somehow made more trustworthy by some promises on a mailing list you've already lost. If you care about this you could instead tell us about how much time you promise to spend reviewing technical work to make sure such attacks cannot be successful, regardless of their origins. Where are your gitian signatures? I think thats a lot more meaningful, and it also improves security for everyone involved since knowing that such attacks can not succeeded removes the motivation for ever trying. A lot of what Bitcoin is about, for me at least, is building systems which are as trustless as possible— ruled by unbreakable rules embodied in the software people chose to use out of their own free will and understanding. Or at least thats the ideal we should try to approximate. If we're successful the adhomenim you've thrown on this list will be completely pointless— not because people are trusted to not do evil but because Bitcoin users won't accept technology that makes it possible. So please go ahead and assume I'm constantly being evil and trying to sneak something in... the technology and security can only be better for it, but please leave the overt attacks at the door. Think gentleman spies, not a street fighting death match. The rude attacks and characterizations just turn people off and don't uncover actual attacks. Maybe the informal guideline should be one flame-out personal attack per cryptosystem you break, serious bug you uncover, or impossible problem you solve. :) -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Working on social contracts (was: Paper Currency)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/19/2014 11:07 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote: I promise that if bad people show up with a sufficient pointy gun that I'll do whatever they tell me to do. I'll make bad proposals, submit backdoors, and argue with querulous folks on mailing lists, diverting them from real development and review work, all as commanded. Maybe I'll try to sneak out a warning of some kind, maybe... but with my life or my families or friends lives on the line— probably not. ... and I think that anyone who tells you otherwise probably just hasn't really thought it through. So what is the point of commitments like that? People change, people go crazy, people are coerced. Crap happens, justifications are made, life goes on— or so we hope. I presume you're familiar with the concept of a warrant canary, so presumably you'd also see why public statements such as I was discussing would be similarly useful. Social contracts make it more difficult to hide coercion, which serves no one except the attackers. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTenU+AAoJEMP3uyY4RQ21P1UH/2fvYa7Hfv53eXA0k9appRVI 8KWpH2D95zCo/s6kIeKZtmEzhFWFkKxOHwiHZbD5JokG+U/vUeR8p+SxF1/xUc1X 1tTNAjfAALz0/KzjPKmlMQCqM5vT4yumHsDusqPuzbPFnJnwFufrAW9vWu9OJacs JEv4yoRGNZhR+eM8hCUkDfTtj7D8J3gMYyYds7K4kppiHN2UPRgZT6TCVyCRlThe 8w9MzYoTAf1WXPmzvSfPhzKMfNV9Y+tjt6ZV+KyLG1ZGLw2EDCxJR1O23QQE8IfK 53I2RgeFnvcdceoExSfYJj+kNpbPQ/WDVszswO5esoMWJ/E3j5PCBsLdGt+8e7I= =BysA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] patents...
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: Most companies (Google certainly included) have therefore banned their staff from reading patents, Bitcoin is not Google though, and applying the same patent protocols to Bitcoin as in Google is drawing a false equivalence between the two. Google can survive single or triple damages, so it makes sense to hope that of those patents you necessarily violate due to the size of your operations, they attract only single damages. Google has so many fingers in so many pies that violating some patents is a question of when, not if. Bitcoin has a far narrower scope than trying to take over the world (and moon). Happy reading: http://endsoftpatents.org/2010/03/transcript-tridgell-patents/ TL;DR: If even single damages result in commercial death, you better pay attention to patents, to reduce the chances of accidentally running into one. (But Bitcoin is not ccache either - it's all about money and it isn't inconceivable that a patent infringement suit might not result in commercial death. The right answer here isn't as obvious as you make it out to be.) -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Developer documentation on bitcoin.org
A quick update on the project: More reviews and feedback on the pull request are very welcome: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/393 This pull request will be merged on May 24th and hopefully will be accurate as much as possible. Reporting any inaccuracy / mistake on the pull request is very appreciated. Saïvann Le 2014-05-10 22:08, Saïvann Carignan a écrit : A new Developer Documentation section should be soon merged on bitcoin.org . Live Preview: http://bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-documentation GitHub Pull Request: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/393 Bitcointalk Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=511876.0 We've worked hard to come up with good quality documentation and general feedback has been positive. Reviews from experienced Bitcoin developers would now be much appreciated. You are cordially invited to help proofread the documentation so it can be published soon! *Please avoid commenting on the mailing list* to not spam everyone. See the pull request for instructions. Comments should go on the pull request or bitcoin-documentation mailing list https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bitcoin-documentation . -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] DNS seeds unstable
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Robert McKay rob...@mckay.com wrote: It should be possible to configure bind as a DNS forwarder.. this can be done in a zone context.. then you can forward the different zones to different dnsseed daemons running on different non-public IPs or two different ports on the same IP (or on one single non-public IP since there's really no reason to expose the dnsseed directly daemon at all). Quite the opposite. dnsseed data rotates through a lot of addresses if available. Using the bind/zone-xfer system would result in fewer total addresses going through to the clients, thanks to the addition of caching levels that the bind/zone-xfer system brings. That said, if the choice is between no-service and bind, bind it is ;p -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] DNS seeds unstable
You would set it up as a forwarder, not as a zone transfer to bind. That should proxy the request every time and only cache based on any TTL that’s set in the response. Here’s an example of how it could work: https://planet.jboss.org/post/setting_up_a_forwarding_dns_server_or_dns_proxy_with_isc_bind On May 19, 2014, at 7:49 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Robert McKay rob...@mckay.com wrote: It should be possible to configure bind as a DNS forwarder.. this can be done in a zone context.. then you can forward the different zones to different dnsseed daemons running on different non-public IPs or two different ports on the same IP (or on one single non-public IP since there's really no reason to expose the dnsseed directly daemon at all). Quite the opposite. dnsseed data rotates through a lot of addresses if available. Using the bind/zone-xfer system would result in fewer total addresses going through to the clients, thanks to the addition of caching levels that the bind/zone-xfer system brings. That said, if the choice is between no-service and bind, bind it is ;p -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] DNS seeds unstable
On Mon, 19 May 2014 19:49:52 -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Robert McKay rob...@mckay.com wrote: It should be possible to configure bind as a DNS forwarder.. this can be done in a zone context.. then you can forward the different zones to different dnsseed daemons running on different non-public IPs or two different ports on the same IP (or on one single non-public IP since there's really no reason to expose the dnsseed directly daemon at all). Quite the opposite. dnsseed data rotates through a lot of addresses if available. Using the bind/zone-xfer system would result in fewer total addresses going through to the clients, thanks to the addition of caching levels that the bind/zone-xfer system brings. That said, if the choice is between no-service and bind, bind it is ;p Setting it up as a zone forwarder causes each request to go through to the dnsseed backend for each request. Rob -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] DNS seeds unstable
On Tue, 20 May 2014 01:44:29 +0100, Robert McKay wrote: On Mon, 19 May 2014 19:49:52 -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Robert McKay rob...@mckay.com wrote: It should be possible to configure bind as a DNS forwarder.. this can be done in a zone context.. then you can forward the different zones to different dnsseed daemons running on different non-public IPs or two different ports on the same IP (or on one single non-public IP since there's really no reason to expose the dnsseed directly daemon at all). Quite the opposite. dnsseed data rotates through a lot of addresses if available. Using the bind/zone-xfer system would result in fewer total addresses going through to the clients, thanks to the addition of caching levels that the bind/zone-xfer system brings. That said, if the choice is between no-service and bind, bind it is ;p Setting it up as a zone forwarder causes each request to go through to the dnsseed backend for each request. This stackoverflow describes a similar situation; http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15338232/how-to-forward-a-subzone you can additionally specify the port to forward too; http://www.zytrax.com/books/dns/ch7/queries.html#forwarders it should be possible to forward to different ports on 127.0.0.1 for each dnsseed instance. Rob -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
