Re: [Bitcoin-development] Blocking uneconomical UTXO creation

2013-03-12 Thread Stephen Pair
Instead of thinking in terms of blocking uneconomical transactions (how would a node even determine what's economical?), what about thinking in terms of paying for a feed of economical (i.e. profitable) transactions? There is a market for fee bearing, profitable transactions...if there is no one

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Blocking uneconomical UTXO creation

2013-03-11 Thread Gavin Andresen
Just activate a non-proportional demurrage demurrage of any kind will never, ever happen, just give up on that idea. The negative publicity of the bitcoin developers are destroying YOUR coins! would be devastating. -- -- Gavin Andresen

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Blocking uneconomical UTXO creation

2013-03-11 Thread Mike Hearn
Why does demurrage even still come up? The base rules of Bitcoin will not be changing in such a fundamental way. With regards to trying to minimize the size of the UTXO set, this again feels like a solution in search of a problem. Even with SD abusing micropayments as messages, it's only a few

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Blocking uneconomical UTXO creation

2013-03-11 Thread Jorge Timón
That solution seems good enough to me. Smartcoin users would just need to move their assets before 10 years, totally acceptable. And regular users don't need to think about it since they're probably always sending more than they pay in fees. On 3/11/13, Benjamin Lindner b...@benlabs.net wrote:

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Blocking uneconomical UTXO creation

2013-03-11 Thread Tadas Varanavičius
On 03/11/2013 08:17 PM, Benjamin Lindner wrote: The problem of UTXO in principal scales with the block size limit. Thus it should be fixed BEFORE you consider increasing the block size limit. Otherwise you just kick the can down the road, making it bigger. Let's assume bitcoin has scaled up

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Blocking uneconomical UTXO creation

2013-03-11 Thread Michael Gronager
The point with UTXO is in the long run to be able to switch from a p2p network where everyone stores, validates and verifies everything to a DHT where the load of storing, validating and verifying can be shared. If we succeed with that then I don't see a problem in a growing set of UTXO, may

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Blocking uneconomical UTXO creation

2013-03-11 Thread Gregory Maxwell
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Michael Gronager grona...@ceptacle.com wrote: The point with UTXO is in the long run to be able to switch from a p2p network where everyone stores, validates and verifies everything to a DHT where the load of storing, validating and verifying can be shared. I

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Blocking uneconomical UTXO creation

2013-03-11 Thread Mike Hearn
This would be bloating UTXO data at a speed of 52 GB/year. That's a very big memory leak. And this is just the unspendable outputs. Firstly, the UTXO set is a LevelDB, it's not stored in memory. Outputs that never get spent are not in the working set by definition, after a while they just end

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Blocking uneconomical UTXO creation

2013-03-11 Thread Tadas Varanavičius
On 03/12/2013 12:19 AM, Mike Hearn wrote: Firstly, the UTXO set is a LevelDB, it's not stored in memory. Outputs that never get spent are not in the working set by definition, after a while they just end up in the bottom levels and hardly ever get accessed. If need be we can always help

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Blocking uneconomical UTXO creation

2013-03-11 Thread Tadas Varanavičius
On 03/12/2013 12:39 AM, Mike Hearn wrote: RAM is used as a database cache. But regardless, what kind of attack are you thinking of? Using up all available disk seeks by sending a node a lot of fake transactions that connect to unspent outputs, but have invalid transactions? You'll get