hi
( 05.02.28 21:07 -0500 ) James Linden Rose, III:
However Mr. Shwartz's model of the problem does not reflect majority
opinion with respect to the breadth of the issue, (especially as it
seems to be peppered with idealism and anti-capitalism).
whoa- idealism and anti-capitalism
smells like
On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 10:54 PM, Ben Tilly wrote:
In an interview what you just said would make me worried. You're
using a technique that you don't understand.
Interesting that you've imagined yourself in a position to be
interviewing me. Not a very likely scenario though.
I think we're still getting ahead of ourselves here. YES, we are all Perl
programmers and love Perl. That doesn't mean we have to see eye-to-eye on
ANYTHING else. It'd be nice. But who are we kidding. We're all
different. I bring this up to help wash over some of these extraneous
issues:
The crux of the problem, is that these questions aren't getting answered:
- Can we create a certification that will deliver benefits X, Y and Z?
Yes. No one said it would be easy or happen tomorrow.
- Is certification a necessary precondition for X, Y and Z?
- Aren't problems X', Y'
I'm sorry everyone.
When I first brought up the question of certification I was really just
looking for a way to communicate to people who don't know anything about
Perl.
I love Perl. I think it can and does do some wonderful things. When I
heard the sad story of someone arguing with his
Alex Brelsfoard said:
I'm sorry everyone.
Alex, you of all people have done nothing to apologize for.
You wanted to find a way to make Perl more widely accepted.
Had the conversation been allowed to takes its natural
course, it might have petered out quickly or it might
have come up with a
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:55:58 -0600 (CST), Alex Brelsfoard
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My impression is that the language which is making the most
inroads on traditional Perl areas is PHP. Is that because of the
wonderful certifications that PHP has which Perl doesn't? Or is
it because PHP is
hi
( 05.02.25 17:13 -0500 ) Greg London:
So, if Certification convinces Mike to allow
perl, and Eve isn't an idiot, it's an overall win.
and if elephants had wings, they'd be the biggest birds by far.
--
\js oblique strategy: ask people to work against their better judgement
John Saylor said:
hi
( 05.02.25 16:56 -0500 ) James Linden Rose, III:
Certification for Perl will certainly NOT raise the intellectual bar
of its practitioners, but it will certainly make many more people into
converts on both the programmer and the manager side of the equation.
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
i still have my cert that i bought from them for my $2! it is all the
perl cert i need.
At the very least there should be a Perl hacker test (I haven't seen one).
Here's a start... I'll be glad to maintain this (if there's been
others, please let
On Mon, Feb 28, 2005 at 10:01:32AM -0500, Greg London wrote:
From a game-theory point of view, I think certification is an overall win.
The worst case scenario for certification would be that gurus have to
get their manager to pay for them to take the test.
The worst case scenario for no
On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 09:28 AM, John Saylor wrote:
hi
( 05.02.25 16:56 -0500 ) James Linden Rose, III:
Certification for Perl will certainly NOT raise the intellectual bar
of its practitioners, but it will certainly make many more people into
converts on both the programmer and the
Adam Turoff said:
On Mon, Feb 28, 2005 at 10:01:32AM -0500, Greg London wrote:
From a game-theory point of view, I think certification is an overall win.
The worst case scenario for certification would be that gurus have to
get their manager to pay for them to take the test.
The worst case
On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 11:16 -0500, Adam Turoff wrote:
The number of Perl job openings today, during the boom, or during the
bust is largely irrelevant. Java was supposed to be the programming
languages to end all programming languages. It wasn't then, and it
isn't now. Interestingly, the
On Feb 28, 2005, at 11:18 AM, James Linden Rose, III wrote:
they could then use their certified credentials to suggest Perl for
real world problem solving.
How about an intermediate step: self-testing.
For example, one of the non-corporate Perl sites could set up a free
automated test. Users
If I could write standalone programs for windows in perl, and be
able to share those programs with my non-perl collegues at work
without over head of them having to install perl separately, would
work wonders for general acceptance of the language. I understand
that I can bundled perl itself
From: James Linden Rose, III [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:42:06 PM US/Eastern
To: Adam Turoff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Boston.pm] (also) Perl
On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 12:46 PM, Adam Turoff wrote:
Another worst case for certification is that the community bifurcates
From: James Linden Rose, III
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Boston.pm] (also) Perl
From: James Linden Rose, III [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:42:06 PM US/Eastern
To: Adam Turoff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Boston.pm] (also) Perl
On Monday
On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 07:41 PM, Ben Tilly wrote:
What don't you believe? That there are rabidly anti-certification
people? That many prominent Perl programmers are among
them? If you doubt that, then I'll call you reality-challenged to
your face and point you in the general direction
On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 08:03 PM, John Redford wrote:
I am anti-certification. Why? To put it extremely bluntly:
certifications
are socialist. People who believe in certifications have the same naïf
mentality as people who believe in socialism.
This sounds like an opinion that's going
On Mon, Feb 28, 2005 at 02:40:10PM -0500, Greg London wrote:
My worst case scenario assumed that programmers knew that perl was the
best language for the job at hand.
So, your analysis is limited to only those who accept that Perl is the
best language for the job? Hm
My point remains: if
On Mon, Feb 28, 2005 at 03:01:46PM -0500, Sean Quinlan wrote:
The last time Perl had an upsurge in popularity, it
was because Perl solved a new class of problem better than anything
else. Might I suggest that the best way to increase adoption is to
learn from our past successes instead
On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 10:27 -0500, Ian Langworth wrote:
On 27.Feb.2005 10:14AM -0500, Greg London wrote:
When IS perl 6 going to be ready, anyway?
Christmas.
All I want for Christmas is my ...
;)
--
Sean Quinlan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed
Have any great advances been made with a perl gui which can be used on multiple
platforms? I have to say, I just
wrote my first ASP.NET application in C# over the last 3 weeks, and while I had
many complaints on having to write
several lines of code to accomplish what I could have in 1 line
JT == John Tsangaris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
JT Have any great advances been made with a perl gui which can be
JT used on multiple platforms? I have to say, I just wrote my first
JT ASP.NET application in C# over the last 3 weeks, and while I had
JT many complaints on having to write
On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 10:28 -0500, Uri Guttman wrote:
JT If I could write standalone programs for windows in perl, and be
JT able to share those programs with my non-perl collegues at work
JT without over head of them having to install perl separately, would
JT work wonders for general
On Feb 25, 2005, at 2:17 PM, Alex Brelsfoard wrote:
True programmers aren't the ones we need to tell about Perl.
I meant budding web programmers. Are these true programmers? I hope so.
Web scripter just doesn't sound as good.
It's the programmer's BOSS, and their boss' boss. These are the
True programmers aren't the ones we need to tell about Perl.
I meant budding web programmers. Are these true programmers? I hope so.
Web scripter just doesn't sound as good.
We'll call them true programmer's in training. ;)
But honestly, MOST true programmers have already heard about Perl,
On Friday, February 25, 2005, at 03:04 PM, Alex Brelsfoard wrote:
I think part of the problem is that it is an open source system that
doesn't have a fund for advertising. I think if we simply saw some
commercials on tv talking about Perl, or telling about all it's success
stories. Heck even if
What Perl is really lacking is a widely recognized, widely accessible
certification program.
Well, now that you've identified the need,
I'll be selling certificates at the next monger meeting.
The color-by-number version will be available for
entry-level programmers with limited budgets.
The
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:51:46 -0500, James Linden Rose, III
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Friday, February 25, 2005, at 03:04 PM, Alex Brelsfoard wrote:
I think part of the problem is that it is an open source system that
doesn't have a fund for advertising. I think if we simply saw some
From: Alex Brelsfoard
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Boston.pm] (also) Perl
I like this idea. I think Perl certification WOULD make the world
happier.
Then again, I like Greg's idea.
Think maybe some of us PerlMongers could get together and actually
start
up a real
AB == Alex Brelsfoard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
AB I like this idea. I think Perl certification WOULD make the world
happier.
AB Then again, I like Greg's idea.
AB Think maybe some of us PerlMongers could get together and actually start
AB up a real Perl certification program?
oy!!
I was not aware that so much discussion about Perl certification had
already taken place (though it makes sense that is has). It DOES sound
like quite a tough pickle. But you have to imagine, if any group of
people were to be able to find a way to make a proper certification
program, wouldn't it
So no Perl certification?
;) joking.
I'm glad this was discussed though. It's always nice to know that there
are other people out there who realize that good coding happens from good
general knowledge of programming principles, not knowing all the syntax in
a language. Plus I had no idea
Truly, I was simply looking for a way to advertise Perl as being something
serious in today's technology. Guess it's back to the drawing board.
I'm motivated to not let this die at the certification sucks stage, since
perl popularity means more money in my
pocket (and I'm assuming it is the
Thanks Greg,
Yeah, it's easy to get side-tracked on an issue like this.
Fighting for Perl's cause is kind of fresh in my mind these days. Mostly
because I feel like I have to _fight_ for it. At least lately. I've been
explaining things about Perl to those who know nothing about it and
Well just about everything that can be said on this thread has been
said, except for this.
Google for: perl (certification OR certificate) produces 2170
matches.
This matches two phrases. If you remove the quotes, i.e.
Google for: perl (certification OR certificate)
produces 1.2 million hits.
On Feb 25, 2005, at 6:08 PM, Alex Brelsfoard wrote:
Ideas?
How about an alliance with Apple? Ditch AppleScript and replace it with
Perl, marry Perl to a GUI and turn Mac users into Perl-hacking
sysadmins.
Does anyone know of a good book on database theory? Really.
Bogart
On Fri, 2005-02-25 at 16:23 -0500, Andres Monroy-Hernandez wrote:
If any, I think O'Reilly should be the issuer of those certificates. I
think it would be a nice thing to have for marketing purposes as others
have pointed out.
Maybe. If not the issuer I'd like to involve them. Not just for
On Fri, 2005-02-25 at 15:07 -0600, Alex Brelsfoard wrote:
I like this idea. I think Perl certification WOULD make the world happier.
Then again, I like Greg's idea.
Think maybe some of us PerlMongers could get together and actually start
up a real Perl certification program?
I don't see why
BT == Ben Tilly [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
BT O'Reilly is too aware of how influential people in the community
BT feel about certification to make that kind of mistake. Else they
BT would have done it a long time ago.
o'reilly would never want to get into that. it just doesn't make
sense.
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:18:54 -0500, Bogart Salzberg
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Feb 25, 2005, at 6:08 PM, Alex Brelsfoard wrote:
Ideas?
How about an alliance with Apple? Ditch AppleScript and replace it with
Perl, marry Perl to a GUI and turn Mac users into Perl-hacking
sysadmins.
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