On Aug 11, 2009, at 6:28 PM, Max Battcher wrote:
On 8/11/2009 18:53, Trent Shipley wrote:
More fundamental is his objection to the U.S. Government. In
effect, he
is saying that the U.S. system of government is inherently
illegitimate,
largely because it is run by politicians. By John
-Original Message-
From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On
Behalf Of John Williams
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:41 AM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: Re: Why not discuss the topic?
No chutzpah required, since I am
Ever since I was given Atlas Shrugged to read by a girlfriend in 1975,
I've been discussing the wonders of free markets with objectivists, radical
libertarians and the like. When asked how disputes over contracts,
ownership, and the like were resolved, all agreed that a governmental court
On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 2:01 PM, John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.comwrote:
But I am
not my brother's keeper.
Seems odd that you would would say that, given that when Cain said, Am I my
brother's keeper? he had just murdered his brother to steal his
inheritance.
I thought you were *against
People on this list have argued for the advantages of a free market system
for health care and health care insurance. I have thought about it, and
decided to apply what we know from other markets that have considerable
less government intervention.
For example, big screen TVs. If you have the
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Nick Arnettnick.arn...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 2:01 PM, John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
wrote:
But I am
not my brother's keeper.
Seems odd that you would would say that, given that when Cain said, Am I my
brother's keeper? he had
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Dan Mdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
Your writings are consistent with the viewpoint of one who knows government
is the root cause of all that is wrong a priori, and needs not look at data
to look at the truth.
Just so you know:
1) I saw your similar post
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Dan Mdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
John, would you agree that some sort of community system, like the courts,
are necessary to resolve disputes over true ownership of property,
contracts, and the like?
Necessary, no, I can imagine alternatives that might be
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:50 AM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.netdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
People on this list have argued for the advantages of a free market system
for health care and health care insurance. I have thought about it, and
decided to apply what we know from other markets that
The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over ten
years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set
up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established
a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat
technologies, and even casts of regulars over
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
everyone should have a chance to live and be healthy, then why not
focus on redistributing wealth
I think this WSJ article is free for anyone to read:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html
but just in case you cannot read it, here are the 8 bullet points (and
a quotation) from Whole Foods founder John Mackey about The Whole
Foods Alternative to
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/08/consumer-drive-health-care-plans.html
Alex Tabarrok wrote:
|For about the last 10 years the United States has been experimenting
|with consumer driven health care plans. CDH plans typically combine
|a high-deductible insurance policy
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:30:03 -0700
To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
Subject: Re: Why not discuss the topic?
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Dan Mdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
Your writings are consistent with the
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:24 AM, John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.comwrote:
It seems I have led you astray. I thought it was clear from the
context (which you removed above), but I meant that literally. Feel
free to replace it with I do not decide what others may or may not
do.
Ah, so
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
...
Just so you know:
1) I saw your similar post about this the first time, several weeks ago
2) We had a similar discussion last year
3) Because of 2) and things that you write
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 11:32 AM, John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.comwrote:
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/08/consumer-drive-health-care-plans.html
Alex Tabarrok wrote:
|For about the last 10 years the United States has been experimenting
|with consumer driven
John Williams wrote:
I think this WSJ article is free for anyone to read:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html
but just in case you cannot read it, here are the 8 bullet points
...
Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies
must
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:56:01 -0700
To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
Subject: Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Dan Mdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
John, would
Never argue with a pedant over nomenclature. It wastes your time and
annoys the pedant.
--Lois Bujold
___
http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:00 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.netdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
Actually, I gave a lot more data this time
Do you mean that the reason you dropped out of the discussion last
time was because you could not respond to my specific points because
you did not have
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:07 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote:
That is what I'm taking away from this, too.
Dan's response seemed on topic to me.
If you would like to discuss any specific points from the last time
this came up (late last year), I would be glad to discuss. Please
quote
#1 patent-related
#2 patent-related
#4 IP-related
#5 patent-related
Sounds like you have a problem with the government-run patent system.
___
http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
John Williams wrote:
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
everyone should have a chance to live and be healthy, then why not
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.comwrote:
Never argue with a pedant over nomenclature. It wastes your time and
annoys the pedant.
I take it you are opposed to pedantically taking the meaning of literally
literally?
That was fun.
Nick
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:15 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote:
John Williams wrote:
Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies
must cover.
...
Make costs transparent so that consumers understand what
health-care treatments cost.
...
Going by the present
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Lance A. Brownla...@bearcircle.net wrote:
John Williams wrote:
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
People on this list have argued for the advantages of a free market system
for health care and health care insurance. I have thought about it, and
decided to apply what we know from other markets that have considerable
less government intervention.
For
John Williams wrote:
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
everyone should have a chance to live and be healthy, then why not
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Trent Shipleytship...@deru.com wrote:
John Williams wrote:
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
This went just to john instead of the list twice. I'm not sure why.
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 4:40 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.netdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
Sounds like you have a problem with the government-run patent system.
If you understood the patent system and how these issues
John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:07 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote:
That is what I'm taking away from this, too.
Dan's response seemed on topic to me.
If you would like to discuss any specific points from the last time
this came up (late last year), I would be glad to
John Williams wrote:
#1 patent-related
#2 patent-related
#4 IP-related
#5 patent-related
Sounds like you have a problem with the government-run patent system.
Yes. He's saying it doesn't actually work the
way you think it would, since there's latitude
for people to game the system.
How
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:20 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote:
How would a non-government-run patent system
(whatever it was) not be just as flawed?
Or better, how would you design a patent system
that did not give a significant advantage to the
side with the best lawyers?
(Feel
John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:15 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote:
John Williams wrote:
Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies
must cover.
...
Make costs transparent so that consumers understand what
health-care treatments cost.
...
Going
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:15 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote:
Maybe YOU could repost?
No, see my previous post in this thread. I still feel the same. And
I'm not trying to be difficult here, I just am not interested in
discussing a subject that I feel has already been adequately
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:04 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.netdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
No, it's the courts that decided, not the patent system itself. Enforcement
of patents and other IP are in the courts, not through patent clerks.
So, if some politicians decided to make a law that all
John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Lance A. Brownla...@bearcircle.net wrote:
John Williams wrote:
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute wealth to improve healthcare
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 4:49 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.netdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
This went just to john instead of the list twice. I'm not sure why.
I just noticed something odd. You messages, that come through the
list, have the Reply-to: set to both your own email address, and the
David Hobby wrote:
John Williams wrote:
#1 patent-related
#2 patent-related
#4 IP-related
#5 patent-related
Sounds like you have a problem with the government-run patent system.
Yes. He's saying it doesn't actually work the
way you think it would, since there's latitude
for people
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote:
How on earth is
the average consumer going to check that their policy is
NOT full of loopholes?
First, I'll point that I know of no system to ensure that there are
not loopholes or other problems with a product or service.
Trent Shipley wrote:
David Hobby wrote:
John Williams wrote:
...
Sounds like you have a problem with the government-run patent system.
Yes. He's saying it doesn't actually work the
way you think it would, since there's latitude
for people to game the system.
How would a non-government-run
On Aug 12, 2009, at 4:31 PM, John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Trent Shipleytship...@deru.com
wrote:
John Williams wrote:
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute
Hello Group --
This discussion about health care is driving me a little crazy, as a retired
nurse. I agree with Dan, Nick, David and everyone else who sees the need
for some sort of universal risk pool. The one thing that irks me about
talking about high deductibles and health savings accounts
Actually, I favor no patent or IP restrictions. I do not know of any
way to prevent gaming the system, and I think the benefits of the
system, as implemented, are outweighed by the costs, several of which
Dan mentioned.
Lets assume that companies that innovated got nothing more than a few
months
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:33 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote:
This is an old kind of argument that is usually used
to support not taking action. It asks How can you
worry about A, when B is so much worse?
That was a question, not an argument. And I am not being flippant. My
point is
John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote:
How on earth is
the average consumer going to check that their policy is
NOT full of loopholes?
...
As for how a consumer can decide what product or service is best for
them, I can think of several
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Dave Landdml...@gmail.com wrote:
Other than various charities, there isn't a world government (i.e.,
a mutually agreed-upon means by which people can pitch in to help each
other out) through which I can redistribute wealth from people in the
US to the people
Compassion, folks. IAAMOAC.
I agree with your points Jo Anne, and welcome hearing from you.
mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology -
http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE
I agree with Dan, Nick, David and everyone else who sees the need
for some sort of universal risk pool.
I'll be glib here and object to universal. What I think you really
mean is all US citizens, or perhaps all US citizens and non-citizen
residents. But see my question here about why we are not
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:08 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.netdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
BTW, I chose IP gaming examples because that's what I know best. The
entire legal system is subject to gamingwhy do you think there are so
many lawyers who make so much money compared to those folks
BTW, I chose IP gaming examples because that's what I know best. The
entire legal system is subject to gamingwhy do you think there are so
many lawyers who make so much money compared to those folks who create
wealth who make less?
Thus my earlier statement that we have too many laws
Compassion and government are strange bedfellows. I'd prefer to
express my compassion without government.
I understand. But, since you expressed it as I am not my brother's
keeper, that's what most folks would call no compassion. You are free to
express itbut we are free to disagree.
-Original Message-
From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On
Behalf Of John Williams
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 7:32 PM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
On Wed, Aug
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Dan Mdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
No, that is the fault of the laws as written. The problem with the court
system is that they do not understand enough to enforce the laws as written.
Or it could be that the laws are too many and too poorly written for
the
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:39 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.netdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
OK, then why do we have so many more lawyers than much more socialistic
countries that have a far more complex history of laws than the US?
I'm not really following you. Do you mean to suggest that
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:43 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.netdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
I understand. But, since you expressed it as I am not my brother's
keeper, that's what most folks would call no compassion. You are free to
express itbut we are free to disagree.
Why do we always
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:20:38 -0700
To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
Subject: Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Dan Mdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
No, that is
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 9:50 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.netdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
I wasn't clear. They don't understand enough about what is being regulated
to enforce the laws. The laws are very clear to me; its how one interprets
these clear laws in the light of facts that are far
Sorry John,
After several posts went to Brin-L I thought the problem was fixed. The
ones that do and those that don't all have similar headers oh my side.
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:30:31 -0700
To:
I think I fell victim to several non-glitches in a row and accidently sent
this to just John. Sorry. But, I found a fast way to fix it...so I'll try
to be good from now on.
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:36:46 -0700
To:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:08 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.netdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
Well, when you quote Cain as a fudmental moral position, you write words
that result in a straight reading of the text leading to that conclusion.
Which has now thoroughly been taken out of context, and
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