Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-30 Thread Werner LEMBERG

>> Anther issue are three vowels in succession, for example
>>
>>   Bäuerin -> Bäue-rin -> Bäu-e-rin
>>   Erneuerung -> Er-neue-rung -> Er-neu-e-rung
>>   misstrauische -> miss-traui-sche ->miss-trau-i-sche
> 
> I would consider this defective in the original hyphenation.  In
> regular text these words could be split both before and after the
> third vowel (if it is not at the end of the word), so it seems the
> original algorithm misses a valid hyphenation.

It's not a defect; it's a design decision, namely to avoid

   The-
   ater

and

   Thea-
   ter

in the same text, which looks strange IMHO.

> But given this one could add the rule to our post-processing that
> syllables ending with three vowels can be split before the last one.
> (I assume the first two vowels are always diphtongs here).

Indeed, it shouldn't be to hard to handle; I just wanted to mention it
for completeness.


Werner
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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-30 Thread Urs Liska


Am 28.12.2016 um 19:33 schrieb Werner LEMBERG:
>>>   Dialog -> Di-a-log
>>>   Bibliothek -> Bi-bli-o-thek
>>>   Geometrie -> Ge-o-me-trie
>> Well, here I'd say if it significantly reduces the number of
>> syllables that have to be split manually then it's better to have
>> than not.  At least you didn't find false positives.
> Anther issue are three vowels in succession, for example
>
>   Bäuerin -> Bäue-rin -> Bäu-e-rin
>   Erneuerung -> Er-neue-rung -> Er-neu-e-rung
>   misstrauische -> miss-traui-sche ->miss-trau-i-sche

I would consider this defective in the original hyphenation. In regular
text these words could be split both before and after the third vowel
(if it is not at the end of the word), so it seems the original
algorithm misses a valid hyphenation.
But given this one could add the rule to our post-processing that
syllables ending with three vowels can be split before the last one. (I
assume the first two vowels are always diphtongs here).

Urs

>
>
>Werner


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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-28 Thread Werner LEMBERG
>>   Dialog -> Di-a-log
>>   Bibliothek -> Bi-bli-o-thek
>>   Geometrie -> Ge-o-me-trie
> 
> Well, here I'd say if it significantly reduces the number of
> syllables that have to be split manually then it's better to have
> than not.  At least you didn't find false positives.

Anther issue are three vowels in succession, for example

  Bäuerin -> Bäue-rin -> Bäu-e-rin
  Erneuerung -> Er-neue-rung -> Er-neu-e-rung
  misstrauische -> miss-traui-sche ->miss-trau-i-sche


   Werner
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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-28 Thread Urs Liska


Am 28. Dezember 2016 19:04:51 MEZ, schrieb Werner LEMBERG :
>
>> But I still think it should be possible to define some rules to apply
>> as a second pass to lyrics that have been hyphenated by Frescobaldi,
>> and I think this should be possible without false positives (although
>> being strict on this may leave out a few border cases that are *not*
>> hyphenated automatically.
>> 
>> 1) A leading vowel may be split from a syllable (trailing vowels are
>> never hyphenated)
>> 2) Diphtongs are note separated
>
>This rule is problematic.
>
>> 3) The remaining syllable must have at least two characters
>> 4) One of the remaining characters must be a vowel
>> 
>> Examples (always: original -> default hyphenation -> [ additional
>> hyphenation | comment ]):
>> 
>> oder -> oder -> o -- der
>> hallo -> hal -- lo -> "lo" is not hyphenated because of rule 3
>> lauwarm -> lau -- warm -> rule 2
>
>counterexamples, mainly `Lehn- und Fremdwörter':
>
>   Dialog -> Di-a-log
>   Bibliothek -> Bi-bli-o-thek
>   Geometrie -> Ge-o-me-trie

Well, here I'd say if it significantly reduces the number of syllables that 
have to be split manually then it's better to have than not. At least you 
didn't find false positives. 

>
>> ich -> ich -> rule 4
>> ist -> ist -> rule 4
>> Rebe -> Re -- be -> rule 3
>> Adele (name) -> Ade -- le -> A -- de -- le -> "de" and "le" not split
>> because of rule 3
>> Esche -> Esche -> E -- sche -> not Esch -- e because of rule 1 (same
>> with a -- de and not ad -- e)
>> Reise -> Rei -- se -> "Rei" is not split because of rule 2
>> 
>> This all goes for German, in other languages it may not fully work.
>> I know at least that in Italian and Latin there are combinations of
>> two vowels and trailing vowels that may be hyphenated (music may set
>> Ky -- ri -- e or e -- le -- i -- son (or e -- lei -- son)).
>> 
>> I'm not sure how to proceed, but I think that e.g. Frescobaldi could
>> produce the hyphenation according to the dictionaries like it does
>> already and then apply the additional rules to the results.  Should
>> not be too hard to implement, at least if there are no complex
>> issues with languages.  Probably the rules should be defined
>> independently and according to the language they are used/applied or
>> not.
>
>Frescobaldi could maintain a set of prefixes (`geo-', `dia-', etc.)
>that are known to contain a `separate vowel'.  Cf.
>
>http://repo.or.cz/wortliste.git/blob/HEAD:/skripte/python/trennstellenkategorisierung/wortteile/praefixe

Yes, or simply ignore this issue.

Urs

>
>
>Werner

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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-28 Thread Werner LEMBERG

> But I still think it should be possible to define some rules to apply
> as a second pass to lyrics that have been hyphenated by Frescobaldi,
> and I think this should be possible without false positives (although
> being strict on this may leave out a few border cases that are *not*
> hyphenated automatically.
> 
> 1) A leading vowel may be split from a syllable (trailing vowels are
> never hyphenated)
> 2) Diphtongs are note separated

This rule is problematic.

> 3) The remaining syllable must have at least two characters
> 4) One of the remaining characters must be a vowel
> 
> Examples (always: original -> default hyphenation -> [ additional
> hyphenation | comment ]):
> 
> oder -> oder -> o -- der
> hallo -> hal -- lo -> "lo" is not hyphenated because of rule 3
> lauwarm -> lau -- warm -> rule 2

counterexamples, mainly `Lehn- und Fremdwörter':

   Dialog -> Di-a-log
   Bibliothek -> Bi-bli-o-thek
   Geometrie -> Ge-o-me-trie

> ich -> ich -> rule 4
> ist -> ist -> rule 4
> Rebe -> Re -- be -> rule 3
> Adele (name) -> Ade -- le -> A -- de -- le -> "de" and "le" not split
> because of rule 3
> Esche -> Esche -> E -- sche -> not Esch -- e because of rule 1 (same
> with a -- de and not ad -- e)
> Reise -> Rei -- se -> "Rei" is not split because of rule 2
> 
> This all goes for German, in other languages it may not fully work.
> I know at least that in Italian and Latin there are combinations of
> two vowels and trailing vowels that may be hyphenated (music may set
> Ky -- ri -- e or e -- le -- i -- son (or e -- lei -- son)).
> 
> I'm not sure how to proceed, but I think that e.g. Frescobaldi could
> produce the hyphenation according to the dictionaries like it does
> already and then apply the additional rules to the results.  Should
> not be too hard to implement, at least if there are no complex
> issues with languages.  Probably the rules should be defined
> independently and according to the language they are used/applied or
> not.

Frescobaldi could maintain a set of prefixes (`geo-', `dia-', etc.)
that are known to contain a `separate vowel'.  Cf.

  
http://repo.or.cz/wortliste.git/blob/HEAD:/skripte/python/trennstellenkategorisierung/wortteile/praefixe


Werner
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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-26 Thread Urs Liska


Am 26. Dezember 2016 10:15:19 MEZ, schrieb Werner LEMBERG :
>
>> Remember that I suggest applying the "lyrics" rule as a second
>> pass. So:
>> 
>> "re-al" and "Teak-holz" are the results of the first pass, then:
>> 
>> Teakholz isn't interesting at all as it doesn't have vowels at
>> syllable borders.  The "e" and the "a" in "real" wouldn't match
>> either because they *are* vowels at syllable borders - but
>> hyphenating them would leave the "r" or the "l", which are no
>> syllables anymore. So the rule would be "vowels at the border of
>> syllables with at least three letters (and at least one other
>> vowel?) can be hyphenated as a syllable in lyrics".
>
>Please give some examples.  I think I don't fully understand what you
>are really talking about.

Maybe I don't either ;-)
But I'll think about it when I'll be on a proper computer again.

Best
Urs

>
>> And of course I don't think it's necessary to catch 100% of the
>> cases.  I'd say anything that is better than 50% is an improvement
>> ...
>
>The very problem is to not introduce false positives, which can be
>easily missed.
>
>
>Werner

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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-26 Thread Werner LEMBERG

> Remember that I suggest applying the "lyrics" rule as a second
> pass. So:
> 
> "re-al" and "Teak-holz" are the results of the first pass, then:
> 
> Teakholz isn't interesting at all as it doesn't have vowels at
> syllable borders.  The "e" and the "a" in "real" wouldn't match
> either because they *are* vowels at syllable borders - but
> hyphenating them would leave the "r" or the "l", which are no
> syllables anymore. So the rule would be "vowels at the border of
> syllables with at least three letters (and at least one other
> vowel?) can be hyphenated as a syllable in lyrics".

Please give some examples.  I think I don't fully understand what you
are really talking about.

> And of course I don't think it's necessary to catch 100% of the
> cases.  I'd say anything that is better than 50% is an improvement
> ...

The very problem is to not introduce false positives, which can be
easily missed.


Werner

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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-26 Thread Urs Liska
Am 26.12.2016 um 08:53 schrieb Werner LEMBERG:
>>>  Heutzutage gehen immer weniger Zuschauer in The-
>>>  ater, egal ob Opernaufführungen oder Sprechthea-
>>>  ter.
>>>
>>> For lyrics, you definitely need `The-a-ter'...
>>
>> But couldn't *that* be achieved with a rather trivial rule?
> 
> I don't think so.  We have `re-al' but `Teak-holz', to name a
> counterexample.
> 

Of course in contrast to you I haven't spent a lot of thought on
hyphenation throughout my life. So please bear with me if I'm speaking
nonsense. But I don't see these two as counterexamples. Remember that I
suggest applying the "lyrics" rule as a second pass. So:

"re-al" and "Teak-holz" are the results of the first pass, then:

Teakholz isn't interesting at all as it doesn't have vowels at syllable
borders.
The "e" and the "a" in "real" wouldn't match either because they *are*
vowels at syllable borders - but hyphenating them would leave the "r" or
the "l", which are no syllables anymore. So the rule would be "vowels at
the border of syllables with at least three letters (and at least one
other vowel?) can be hyphenated as a syllable in lyrics".

But surely I'm still missing something.
And of course I don't think it's necessary to catch 100% of the cases.
I'd say anything that is better than 50% is an improvement ...

Urs


> 
> Werner
> 


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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-26 Thread Werner LEMBERG

> Der Soldat ging in die Wach-
> stube und holte seine Wachs-
> tube aus dem Schrank.
> 
> The sentence above demonstrates that probably _no_ current
> implementation of a hyphenation algorithm can be correct without a
> deep understanding of the contents of a text.

For the German hyphenation patterns we disallow hyphenation at such
ambiguous positions.  Of course, this doesn't work properly for lyrics.

> But: Are there better algorithms than the one described by F.M.Liang
> for the task of finding 99.999% of all hyphenation points?

Certainly, for example `SiSiSi' (sichere sinnentsprechende
Silbentrennung).  However, this is (a) mainly for German, (b) not
free, (c) no longer maintained, AFIAK, and (d) not implemented in TeX
or OpenOffice.

Note that hyphenation can be extremely tricky.  Taken from

  http://hunspell.sourceforge.net/tb87nemeth.pdf

here's a table that shows some complicated cases (I've removed German
since with the new spelling reform cases like `Zucker → Zuk-ker' or
`Schiffahrt → Schiff-fahrt' no longer exist).

  Language   Example Hyphenation   Description
  ---
  Catalanparal·lel   paral- leldigraph l·l represents
   long (geminated) l
  Dutch  reëel   re- eel   diaeresis and hyphenation
   sign syllable breaks
 omaatje oma- tje  vowel lengthening with
   diminutive -tje
  Greek  Μαΐου   Μα- ίου   diaeresis and hyphenation
   sign syllable breaks
  Hungarian  asszonnyal  asz- szony- nyal  simplified double digraphs
   (long sz and ny phonemes)
  Norwegian  bussjåfør   buss- sjåfør  triple consonants at
   compound word boundary
  Polish kong-fu kong- -fu repeated hyphen at line
   begin
  Swedishtillåta till- låtatriple consonants at
   compound word boundary

I think the trickiest language is Hungarian...

Note that above covers only the most basic level.  In languages that
use compound words, you also need proper weighting of hyphenation
points, but this is beyond what would be needed for lilypond.


Werner
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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-25 Thread Urs Liska


Am 26.12.2016 um 00:27 schrieb Knut Petersen:
>
>>>   Heutzutage gehen immer weniger Zuschauer in The-
>>>   ater, egal ob Opernaufführungen oder Sprechthea-
>>>   ter.
>
> Der Soldat ging in die Wach-
> stube und holte seine Wachs-
> tube aus dem Schrank.

LOL.

>
> The sentence above demonstrates that probably _no_ current
> implementation of a hyphenation algorithm can be correct
> without a deep understanding of the contents of a text. 

Indeed.

Urs

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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-25 Thread Knut Petersen



  Heutzutage gehen immer weniger Zuschauer in The-
  ater, egal ob Opernaufführungen oder Sprechthea-
  ter.


Der Soldat ging in die Wach-
stube und holte seine Wachs-
tube aus dem Schrank.

The sentence above demonstrates that probably _no_ current
implementation of a hyphenation algorithm can be correct
without a deep understanding of the contents of a text. But:
Are there better algorithms than the one described by F.M.Liang
for the task of finding 99.999% of all hyphenation points?

Cheers,
 Knut

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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-25 Thread Urs Liska


Am 25. Dezember 2016 23:02:45 MEZ, schrieb Werner LEMBERG :
>
>>> Is there a set of official rules how hyphenation is done for
>>> lyrics? I just found some forums where the advice is rather
>>> ambiguous.
>> 
>> Well, for the german language you would use the official hyphenation
>> rules that apply to hyphenation at the end of a line as a
>> base. Obviously one of the rules cannot be used for lyrics: it's
>> also necessary to hyphenate single vowels at the start or end of
>> words like aber, über, etc.
>> 
>> Have a look at http://projekte.dante.de/Trennmuster ... Werner knows
>> that URL ;-)
>
>Hehe, yes.  Unfortunately, what we are collecting there is not
>completely suitable for German hyphenation of lyrics, since we
>(currently) have patterns for etymologically derived hyphenation
>only.  In addition, the current minimum distance between two
>hyphenation points is two letters, to avoid something like
>
>  Heutzutage gehen immer weniger Zuschauer in The-
>  ater, egal ob Opernaufführungen oder Sprechthea-
>  ter.
>
>For lyrics, you definitely need `The-a-ter'...

But couldn't *that* be achieved with a rather trivial rule? 

Then one wouldn't even have to *update* the main algorithm but could do a 
second pass with an external script (e.g. in Frescobaldi) to add hyphenation 
for single vowels.

Urs

>
>
>Werner
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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-25 Thread Werner LEMBERG

>> Is there a set of official rules how hyphenation is done for
>> lyrics? I just found some forums where the advice is rather
>> ambiguous.
> 
> Well, for the german language you would use the official hyphenation
> rules that apply to hyphenation at the end of a line as a
> base. Obviously one of the rules cannot be used for lyrics: it's
> also necessary to hyphenate single vowels at the start or end of
> words like aber, über, etc.
> 
> Have a look at http://projekte.dante.de/Trennmuster ... Werner knows
> that URL ;-)

Hehe, yes.  Unfortunately, what we are collecting there is not
completely suitable for German hyphenation of lyrics, since we
(currently) have patterns for etymologically derived hyphenation
only.  In addition, the current minimum distance between two
hyphenation points is two letters, to avoid something like

  Heutzutage gehen immer weniger Zuschauer in The-
  ater, egal ob Opernaufführungen oder Sprechthea-
  ter.

For lyrics, you definitely need `The-a-ter'...


Werner
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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-25 Thread Werner LEMBERG

>> Frescobaldi offers a ("destructive") hyphenation option using
>> system installed dictionaries. This can save lots if time while
>> giving total control to post-process the results.
> 
> +1

Indeed.  Having hyphenation support *outside* Lilypond, this is, as an
input aid, is the right solution.


Werner

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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-25 Thread Knut Petersen

Hi Joram!

That is the kind of automisation that I use and like. But it also shows
the difficulties that Werner mentioned: Text hyphenation patterns are
not always what is needed for lyrics.

Is there a set of official rules how hyphenation is done for lyrics? I
just found some forums where the advice is rather ambiguous.


Well, for the german language you would use the official hyphenation rules that 
apply to
hyphenation at the end of a line as a base. Obviously one of the rules cannot 
be used for
lyrics: it's also necessary to hyphenate single vowels at the start or end of 
words like aber,
über, etc.

Have a look at http://projekte.dante.de/Trennmuster ... Werner knows that URL 
;-)

cu,
 Knut

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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-25 Thread Noeck


Am 23.12.2016 um 09:26 schrieb Urs Liska:
> Frescobaldi offers a ("destructive") hyphenation option using system 
> installed dictionaries. This can save lots if time while giving total control 
> to post-process the results.

+1

That is the kind of automisation that I use and like. But it also shows
the difficulties that Werner mentioned: Text hyphenation patterns are
not always what is needed for lyrics.

Is there a set of official rules how hyphenation is done for lyrics? I
just found some forums where the advice is rather ambiguous.

Cheers,
Joram

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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-23 Thread Urs Liska


Am 23. Dezember 2016 08:45:15 MEZ, schrieb Werner LEMBERG :
>
>> What we need is automatic hyphenation for lyrics ...  but the
>> standard algorithm (read the thesis ofFranklin Mark Liang) is not
>> optimal because it is not designed to find _all_ possible
>> hyphenations and because hyphenation for lyrics might differ from
>> the standard: German rules do not allow e.g. to hyphenate a word
>> like "über" in normal texts, but we would need "ü-ber" for lyrics.
>
>I think this is completely futile.  There are too many special cases,
>too many languages, too many author wishes, etc., etc.
>
>Hyphenation only makes sense for larger blocks of texts where text
>typography rules, not music typography.
>

Frescobaldi offers a ("destructive") hyphenation option using system installed 
dictionaries. This can save lots if time while giving total control to 
post-process the results.

Urs

>
>Werner
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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-22 Thread Werner LEMBERG

> What we need is automatic hyphenation for lyrics ...  but the
> standard algorithm (read the thesis ofFranklin Mark Liang) is not
> optimal because it is not designed to find _all_ possible
> hyphenations and because hyphenation for lyrics might differ from
> the standard: German rules do not allow e.g. to hyphenate a word
> like "über" in normal texts, but we would need "ü-ber" for lyrics.

I think this is completely futile.  There are too many special cases,
too many languages, too many author wishes, etc., etc.

Hyphenation only makes sense for larger blocks of texts where text
typography rules, not music typography.


Werner
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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-22 Thread Knut Petersen

Hi Simon!


It’s a known issue that this is not possible to do in LilyPond, which is why 
(almost?) everybody to typeset such large projects with LilyPond has used 
LilyPond only for the music itself and embedded the output in *TeX or other 
word-processing/publishing software.


Well, hyphenation is not the only reason not to try to typeset large portions 
of text with lilypond ;-)

What we need is automatic hyphenation for lyrics ... but the standard
algorithm (read the thesis ofFranklin Mark Liang) is not optimal
because it is not designed to find _all_ possible hyphenations and because
hyphenation for lyrics might differ from the standard: German rules
do not allow e.g. to hyphenate a word like "über" in normal texts, but we
would need "ü-ber" for lyrics.

Of course it is possible to define a scheme function that passes its
arguments to an external stand-alone hyphenator (yet to be written?)
and read back the results ...

cu,
 Knut


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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-22 Thread Simon Albrecht

On 22.12.2016 19:32, Mirosław Doroszewski wrote:

lilypond does not do word hyphenation in \marklist. It implies
that the software cannot public long and small song books with meny
pieces.


That is true. Your message would be received more favourably if you said 
something like


‘It would be great if LilyPond offered a possibility to auto-hyphenate 
text in markup. There doesn’t seem to be an issue in the tracker yet.’


It’s a known issue that this is not possible to do in LilyPond, which is 
why (almost?) everybody to typeset such large projects with LilyPond has 
used LilyPond only for the music itself and embedded the output in *TeX 
or other word-processing/publishing software.
Since we indeed don’t seem to have this feature request listed, I 
created a tracker: 


Best, Simon

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Re: Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

2016-12-22 Thread James

Hello Miro,


On 22/12/16 18:32, Mirosław Doroszewski wrote:

Word hyphenation in LilyPond version 2.18.2.

1. Word hyphenation happens usually in justified texts.
2. Music notation software can print song books with some or many pieces.
3. Conversion poetry texts from standard publication into small one
is: changing strophas into paragraphs. It implies putting a sign
between each verse, i.e. an asterisk (*) or pause (—).
4. The point is that many pieces of long song book have to be put into
small book, on the opposite of poetry books which can be big.
5. But lilypond does not do word hyphenation in \marklist. It implies
that the software cannot public long and small song books with meny
pieces.
6. Advice: maybe the software has to use hyphenation modules from
popular text editors.

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Can I check that you are seeing our replies to all your other emails you 
have sent?


As I have not seen any acknowledgment and want to make sure that you are 
getting them.


Many of your emails are not suitable for the Bug mailing list but should 
be discussed on the User mailing list.


Please let us know that you are seeing our replies.

Thank you for your time.

James

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