On 12.03.2013 03:46, PJ Eby wrote:
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 8:28 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
On 12.03.2013 00:39, Donald Stufft wrote:
On Mar 11, 2013, at 7:04 PM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
Just a thought, but...
If 90% of PyPI projects do not have any external files
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 19:04 -0400, PJ Eby wrote:
Just a thought, but...
If 90% of PyPI projects do not have any external files to download,
then, wouldn't it make sense to:
sidenote: we need to verify and clarify the 90/10 ratio. It would be
the basis for action/changing pypi-state so we
On Mar 12, 2013, at 1:25 AM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 8:57 PM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote:
So, we should not remove the links for external packages until
somebody
On Mar 12, 2013, at 3:57 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
On 12.03.2013 03:46, PJ Eby wrote:
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 8:28 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
On 12.03.2013 00:39, Donald Stufft wrote:
On Mar 11, 2013, at 7:04 PM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
Just a
On 12.03.2013 10:20, Jesse Noller wrote:
On Mar 12, 2013, at 3:57 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
On 12.03.2013 03:46, PJ Eby wrote:
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 8:28 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
On 12.03.2013 00:39, Donald Stufft wrote:
On Mar 11, 2013, at 7:04 PM, PJ
Hi all,
below is the new PEP pre-submit version (V2) which incorporates the
latest suggestions and aims at a rapidly deployable solution. Thanks in
particular to Philip, Donald and Marc-Andre. I also added a few notes
on how installers should behave with respect to non-PYPI crawling.
I think
That looks pretty good to me. My only comment is that qualifiers like new
don't age well in an API. The explicit nocrawlhomepage and
nocrawldownload might be a better choice.
Cheers,
Nick.
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On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:50 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
Not hard to do: we'd just need to keep the old index in place
using a different URL, e.g. /simple-v1/.
That's not necessary: the XML-RPC API lets you query those URLs
directly. They're part of the metadata standard, after
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:25 AM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote:
Externally hosted files are a real world actual problem.
You're leaving out some important words from that sentence. Words
like, for some people and who choose to depend on projects using
them.
PyPI isn't your private
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:38 AM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
I'll ask it again: why should *thousands* of projects be censored or
made to change their release processes, because *you* can't be
bothered to cache the distributions of the projects you depend on?
Because
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:38 AM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
AFAICT, you're the ones stopping things moving forward here,
filibustering against every possible compromise.
Sorry, one more thing: I'm interested in what your comprise would be.
Can you write up a counter-proposal to
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 7:38 AM, holger krekel hol...@merlinux.eu wrote:
In addition, maintainers of installation tools are asked to release
two updates. The first one shall provide clear warnings if external
crawling needs to happen,
A clarification here: needs to happen is not
Op 05-03-13 16:34, Christian Theune schreef:
Hi,
it seems my fight to keep f.pypi.python.org is at least keeping the
pypi-mirrors.org page happy.
Unfortunately one ouf our users detected another inconsistency that the
mirror script doesn't find or clean up by itself. I also don't know how
to
On 12.03.2013 12:38, holger krekel wrote:
Hi all,
below is the new PEP pre-submit version (V2) which incorporates the
latest suggestions and aims at a rapidly deployable solution. Thanks in
particular to Philip, Donald and Marc-Andre. I also added a few notes
on how installers should
On 12.03.2013 16:42, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:38 AM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
I'll ask it again: why should *thousands* of projects be censored or
made to change their release processes, because *you* can't be
bothered to cache the distributions of the
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 01:19 +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote:
That looks pretty good to me. My only comment is that qualifiers like new
don't age well in an API. The explicit nocrawlhomepage and
nocrawldownload might be a better choice.
Right, we might also consider dropping rel-attributing given
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:19 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
So let's do this carefully and find a good solution before
jumping to conclusions.
Completely agreed; rushing is a bad idea.
But so is not starting. What I'm seeing — as a total outsider, a user
of these tools, not someone
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:53 -0400, PJ Eby wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 7:38 AM, holger krekel hol...@merlinux.eu wrote:
In addition, maintainers of installation tools are asked to release
two updates. The first one shall provide clear warnings if external
crawling needs to happen,
A
On 12.03.2013 17:29, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:19 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
So let's do this carefully and find a good solution before
jumping to conclusions.
Completely agreed; rushing is a bad idea.
But so is not starting. What I'm seeing — as a
Hi Holger,
I am confused about the discrepancy between the title of this pre-PEP
(transition to release file hosting on PyPI) and the contents of the
PEP, which describe a transition to not crawling _HTML pages_ on
external sites looking for distribution download links. These are not
the same
Hi Marc-Andre, all,
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 17:06 +0100, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
On 12.03.2013 12:38, holger krekel wrote:
Hi all,
below is the new PEP pre-submit version (V2) which incorporates the
latest suggestions and aims at a rapidly deployable solution. Thanks in
particular to
Hi Carl,
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:48 -0600, Carl Meyer wrote:
Hi Holger,
I am confused about the discrepancy between the title of this pre-PEP
(transition to release file hosting on PyPI) and the contents of the
PEP, which describe a transition to not crawling _HTML pages_ on
external
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss ja...@jacobian.org wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:19 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
So let's do this carefully and find a good solution before
jumping to conclusions.
Completely agreed; rushing is a bad idea.
But so is not
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 13:18 -0400, PJ Eby wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss ja...@jacobian.org
wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:19 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
So let's do this carefully and find a good solution before
jumping to conclusions.
And I've put multiple compromise proposals out there to begin
mitigating the problem *now* (i.e. for non-updated versions of
setuptools), and every time, the objection is, no, we need to ban it
all now, no discussion, no re-evaluation, no personal choice, everyone
must do as we say, no
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Jesse Noller jnol...@gmail.com wrote:
There's not much to understand: external hosting of packages is *actively
harmful*, period. End users of easy_install and pip *don't even realize* 99%
of the time that these tools are following links off of PyPi and
Just a quick note (more later, if time permits)...
On 12.03.2013 18:05, holger krekel wrote:
Hi Marc-Andre, all,
- Prepare PYPI implementation to allow a per-project hosting mode,
effectively enabling or disabling external crawling. When enabled
nothing changes from the current
I've run into a weird issue with easy_install, that I'm trying to solve:
If I place two files named
egenix_mxodbc_connect_client-2.0.2-py2.6.egg
egenix-mxodbc-connect-client-2.0.2.win32-py2.6.prebuilt.zip
into the same directory and let easy_install running on Linux
scan this, it considers the
On Mar 12, 2013, at 12:41 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
On 12.03.2013 17:29, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:19 AM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
So let's do this carefully and find a good solution before
jumping to conclusions.
Completely agreed;
It seems to me that there's a remarkable level of consensus developing
here (though it may not look like it), and a small set of remaining open
questions.
The consensus (as I see it):
- Migrate away from scraping external HTML pages, with package owners in
control of the migration but a deadline
On 13 March 2013 07:18, Carl Meyer c...@oddbird.net wrote:
It seems to me that there's a remarkable level of consensus developing
here (though it may not look like it), and a small set of remaining open
questions.
The consensus (as I see it):
I think that is a fair summary.
One thing I'd
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:54 PM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
This is a rationale for secure defaults for various options, like the
ones I outlined in the portions of my post that you *didn't* quote.
It's not a rationale for removing the options themselves.
Exactly; thanks for saying
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:00 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
The whole Python package eco-system works based on trust and
injecting fear into this system is not helpful, IMO.
I'm sorry if my words came across that way; I'm not trying to scare
anyone. I'm trying to emphasize that this
On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:00 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com
(mailto:m...@egenix.com) wrote:
The whole Python package eco-system works based on trust and
injecting fear into this system is not helpful, IMO.
I'm
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:58 PM, Jesse Noller jnol...@gmail.com wrote:
Nah, that was me injecting fear. I call dibs on that one.
Aw, man!
Can I have Uncertainty and Doubt then?
Jacob
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On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 1:58 PM, Jesse Noller jnol...@gmail.com
(mailto:jnol...@gmail.com) wrote:
Nah, that was me injecting fear. I call dibs on that one.
Aw, man!
Can I have Uncertainty and Doubt then?
Jacob
On 03/12/2013 11:00 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
On 12.03.2013 18:33, Jesse Noller wrote:
And I've put multiple compromise proposals out there to begin
mitigating the problem *now* (i.e. for non-updated versions of
setuptools), and every time, the objection is, no, we need to ban it
all now,
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:18 -0600, Carl Meyer wrote:
It seems to me that there's a remarkable level of consensus developing
here (though it may not look like it), and a small set of remaining open
questions.
The consensus (as I see it):
- Migrate away from scraping external HTML pages,
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 19:07 +0100, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
Just a quick note (more later, if time permits)...
On 12.03.2013 18:05, holger krekel wrote:
Hi Marc-Andre, all,
- Prepare PYPI implementation to allow a per-project hosting mode,
effectively enabling or disabling external
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Carl Meyer c...@oddbird.net wrote:
It seems to me that there's a remarkable level of consensus developing
here (though it may not look like it), and a small set of remaining open
questions.
The consensus (as I see it):
- Migrate away from scraping external
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Robert Collins
robe...@robertcollins.net wrote:
This takes an age when each new web host to talk to is a new DNS
lookup (say 0.3 seconds) + HTTP request (0.6 seconds) with possible
HTTPS setup in there too (up to 1.2 seconds). A project with dozens of
On 12.03.2013 20:17, holger krekel wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 19:07 +0100, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
Just a quick note (more later, if time permits)...
On 12.03.2013 18:05, holger krekel wrote:
Hi Marc-Andre, all,
- Prepare PYPI implementation to allow a per-project hosting mode,
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:21 PM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
The *only* thing I object to is the part where some people want to ban
external links from /simple, always and forever, regardless of the
package authors' choice in the matter.
Here's the thing though, there are already a
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:07 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
Just a quick note (more later, if time permits)...
On 12.03.2013 18:05, holger krekel wrote:
Hi Marc-Andre, all,
- Prepare PYPI implementation to allow a per-project hosting mode,
effectively enabling or disabling
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 14:36 -0500, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:21 PM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
The *only* thing I object to is the part where some people want to ban
external links from /simple, always and forever, regardless of the
package authors'
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 15:21 -0400, PJ Eby wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Carl Meyer c...@oddbird.net wrote:
It seems to me that there's a remarkable level of consensus developing
here (though it may not look like it), and a small set of remaining open
questions.
The consensus
On 12.03.2013 20:46, PJ Eby wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:07 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
Just a quick note (more later, if time permits)...
On 12.03.2013 18:05, holger krekel wrote:
Hi Marc-Andre, all,
- Prepare PYPI implementation to allow a per-project hosting mode,
On 12.03.2013 19:15, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
I've run into a weird issue with easy_install, that I'm trying to solve:
If I place two files named
egenix_mxodbc_connect_client-2.0.2-py2.6.egg
egenix-mxodbc-connect-client-2.0.2.win32-py2.6.prebuilt.zip
into the same directory and let
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss ja...@jacobian.org wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:21 PM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
The *only* thing I object to is the part where some people want to ban
external links from /simple, always and forever, regardless of the
package
On Mar 12, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Carl Meyer c...@oddbird.net wrote:
On 03/12/2013 01:21 PM, PJ Eby wrote:
- In some way, migrate to a situation where the popular installer tools
install only release files from PyPI by default, but are capable of
installing from other locations if the user
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:16 PM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
I'm confused by this statement. never access an external host is
not consistent with have the option to specify what hosts you trust,
while still keeping PyPI as a universal index of Python software.
Sorry to be confusing!
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss ja...@jacobian.org wrote:
As I've said, the implementation details aren't of a concern to me;
the result is.
You know what though, I kinda lied.
While I don't care about the implementation, I *do* care about keeping
this process moving
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Carl Meyer c...@oddbird.net wrote:
You say below that nobody has proposed a 'trust everything' flag. If
there is no trust everything flag, then it seems to me that with
either option A or option B the user needs to specify what they intend
to trust. I.e. if you
Hello Jacob,
Good to hear from you! Thanks for stating your concerns so clearly, and
we do understand them. We agree that inertia is important to maintain.
In fact, we are excited to show this in person to the PyPI community on
Friday.
We expect to release a design document and a demo in a
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:59 PM, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
On 12.03.2013 19:15, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
I've run into a weird issue with easy_install, that I'm trying to solve:
If I place two files named
egenix_mxodbc_connect_client-2.0.2-py2.6.egg
On 11-03-13 11:44, Lennart Regebro wrote:
That's now all the energy I'm willing to spend on discussing this
topic. Third-party hosting needs to go. I believe there is a broad
consensus on this. Let's instead discuss*how* to implement it.
Hear hear!
I'm so fed up with other people's non-pypi
On 12-03-13 16:38, PJ Eby wrote:
I'll ask it again: why should*thousands* of projects be censored or
made to change their release processes, because*you* can't be
bothered to cache the distributions of the projects you depend on?
So... everyone that uses pypi should be *forced* to use their
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