Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-28 Thread Les Mikesell
On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 3:56 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: There was no court

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-28 Thread Joerg Schilling
Gordon Messmer gordon.mess...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/27/2015 12:28 PM, Joerg Schilling wrote: Up to now, nobody could explain me how a mixture of GPL and BSD can be legal as this would require (when following the GPL) to relicense the BSD code under GPL in order to make the whole be

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-28 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: There was no court case, but VERITAS published a modifed version of gtar where additional code was added by

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-28 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: No, you posted some ranting misconceptions about why you don't see a need for it. But if you actually believed any of that yourself, then you would

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-28 Thread Joerg Schilling
Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: If you did read the CDDL, you did of course know that the CDDL places work limits at file limits and that the CDDL does not try to impose any restriction on sources that are not in a file marked as CDDLd. So the CDDL of course does

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Gordon Messmer gordon.mess...@gmail.com wrote: I'm reasonably certain that a script with no shebang will run with /bin/sh. I interpret your statement to mean that if a user is using ksh and enters the path to such a script, it would also run in ksh. That would only be true if you sourced

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Stephen Harris li...@spuddy.org wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 09:47:24AM -0700, Gordon Messmer wrote: On 04/24/2015 03:57 AM, Pete Geenhuizen wrote: if you leave it out the script will run in whatever environment it currently is in. I'm reasonably certain that a script with no

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Valeri Galtsev galt...@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote: #!/bin/sh readlink /proc/$$/file ( note that that file is because I'm using FreeBSD /proc, for Linux you may need to replace the line with something like: readlink /proc/$$/exe And on a platform that implements a

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:04 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: My first RH was 5, late nineties. First time I looked at linux and installed, it was '95, and slack. (We'll ignore the Coherent that I installed on my beloved 286 in the late 80's).

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Stephen Harris li...@spuddy.org wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:38:25AM -0400, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Fascinating. As I'd been in Sun OS, and started doing admin work when it became Solaris, I'd missed that bit. A question: did the license agreement include payment, or was it just

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Ah. I don't remember if I was using csh, or ksh, and didn't realize about bash. I *think* I vaguely remember that sh seemed to be more capable than I remembered. If you like to check what the Bourne Shell did support in the late 1980s, I recommend you to fetch recent

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
John R Pierce pie...@hogranch.com wrote: oh fun, just did some tests (using c6.latest). if you're in bash, ./script (sans shebang) runs it in bash. if you're in dash or csh, ./script runs it in sh.if you're in ksh, it runs it in ksh. See my other mail. The scripts (unless marked)

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: as a whole means generally BUT allowing for exceptions. OK, great. That clears it up then. Maybe this helps: The BSD license does not

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:19 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: Do you like to discuss things or do you like to throw smoke grenades? The only thing I'd like to discuss is your reason for not adding a dual license to make your code as usable and probably as

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Gordon Messmer
On 04/27/2015 12:28 PM, Joerg Schilling wrote: Up to now, nobody could explain me how a mixture of GPL and BSD can be legal as this would require (when following the GPL) to relicense the BSD code under GPL in order to make the whole be under GPL. The GPL doesn't require that you relicense any

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: The GPL is all that gives you permission to distribute. If it is void then you have no permission at all to distribute any covered code. Fortunately judges know better than you If you read the

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: No, you posted some ranting misconceptions about why you don't see a need for it. But if you actually believed any of that yourself, then you would see there was no harm in adding a dual license to

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: as a whole means generally BUT allowing for exceptions. OK, great. That clears it up then. Maybe this helps: The BSD license does not permit to relicense the code, so you cannot put BSD

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread m . roth
Joerg Schilling wrote: Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: If you combine ZFS and Linux, you create a permitted collective work and the GPL cannot extend it's rules to the CDDLd separate and

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: First, I was not aware that the US had declared any part of the GPL null Just ask US lawyers. one of them sits on the other side of the corridor of my office, another is the well known Lawrence Rosen. For Europe check the reasoning of the cases from Harald Welte.

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: The GPL is all that gives you permission to distribute. If it is void then you have no permission at all to distribute any covered code.

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: Yes, if you mean what is described here as 'the original 4-clause' license, or BSD-old: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenses Do you like to discuss things or do you like to throw smoke grenades?

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:19 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: Do you like to discuss things or do you like to throw smoke grenades? The only thing I'd like to discuss is your reason for not adding a dual

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: Yes, if you mean what is described here as 'the original 4-clause' license, or BSD-old: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenses Do you like to

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Warren Young
On Apr 27, 2015, at 4:38 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: This is the SVr4 Bourne Shell, so you need to take into account what has been added with Svr4: Is there any difference between your osh and the Heirloom Bourne Shell?

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Warren Young w...@etr-usa.com wrote: On Apr 27, 2015, at 4:38 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: This is the SVr4 Bourne Shell, so you need to take into account what has been added with Svr4: Is there any difference between your osh and the Heirloom

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: I would be interested to understand why Heirloom seems to so well known and my portability attempts seem to be widely unknown. Not sure why it matters with a standalone application like sh, but I

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: I would be interested to understand why Heirloom seems to so well known and my portability attempts seem to be widely unknown. Not sure why it

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Warren Young
On Apr 27, 2015, at 9:07 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: Heirloom added support for uname -S and for some linux ulimit extensions but then stopped working on the code after a few months Ah. I had no idea it was in a state of disrepair. I see that you

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: And the problem is the GPL. I recommend you to work on making all GPL code freely combinable with other OSS. Of course the problem it the GPL. Glad you recognize that. It's whole point is the

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Lamar Owen
On 04/27/2015 06:43 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote: I started with UNOS in 1982 as my first UNIX like. UNOS in fact was the first UNIX clone and it was a real time OS. In February 1985, I switched to a Sunthe first Sun that made it to Europe. Jörg Charles River UNOS was actually Tandy's first

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: You should read the GPL and get help to understand it. The GPL does not forbid this linking. In contrary, the GPOL allows any GPLd program to be linked against any library under and license. If this

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Warren Young w...@etr-usa.com wrote: 4. CDDL annoys a lot of people. The CDDL does not annoy people, this is just a fairy tale from some OSS enemies. The following irritates me, I am a ?people,? and I am

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Warren Young w...@etr-usa.com wrote: The schily tools act as a container to publish the current code state. There is no such maintained web page. I was referring to the summary on the SourceForge page, where you just list the contents of the package without explaining why one would

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Warren Young
On Apr 27, 2015, at 10:10 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: Warren Young w...@etr-usa.com wrote: I was referring to the summary on the SourceForge page, where you just list the contents of the package without explaining why one would want to download it.

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Warren Young w...@etr-usa.com wrote: 4. CDDL annoys a lot of people. The CDDL does not annoy people, this is just a fairy tale from some OSS enemies. The following irritates me, I am a “people,” and I am not an OSS enemy:

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Warren Young w...@etr-usa.com wrote: Yes, I realize that osh is closer to the original Bourne shell. My point is that you can?t expect people to just know, without having been told, why they want bsh, or osh, bosh, or smake, or? Most of these tools compete with tools that are already in

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: And the problem is the GPL. I recommend you to work on making all GPL code freely combinable with other OSS. Of course the problem it the GPL. Glad

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: You should read the GPL and get help to understand it. The GPL does not forbid this linking. In contrary, the GPOL allows any GPLd program to be

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: There was no court case, but VERITAS published a modifed version of gtar where additional code was added by binary only libraries from VERITAS. The FSF did

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: If you combine ZFS and Linux, you create a permitted collective work and the GPL cannot extend it's rules to the CDDLd separate and independend work ZFS of course. Which countries' copyright laws

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:57 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: You can't distribute GPLd programs unless 'the work as a whole' is covered by the GPL. There can't be a distinction between binary and source since one is derived from the other. Now you just need

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: If you combine ZFS and Linux, you create a permitted collective work and the GPL cannot extend it's rules to the CDDLd separate and independend work

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Always Learning
On Mon, 2015-04-27 at 12:32 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:57 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: Now you just need to understand what as a whole means Yes, in english, 'work as a whole' does mean complete. And the normal

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: The GPL makes claims that are in conflict with the law because these claims are not amongst what the list in the law permits and that are thus void. The GPL is all that gives you permission to

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Les Mikesell
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Always Learning cen...@u64.u22.net wrote: Yes, in english, 'work as a whole' does mean complete. And the normal interpretation is that it covers everything linked into the same process at runtime unless there is an alternate interface-compatible component

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:57 AM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: You can't distribute GPLd programs unless 'the work as a whole' is covered by the GPL. There can't be a distinction between binary and source since

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: The GPL makes claims that are in conflict with the law because these claims are not amongst what the list in the law permits and that are thus void.

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Chris Adams
Can we take the license wanking off the list please? I don't think either of the people arguing are actually lawyers, so it has no relevance. -- Chris Adams li...@cmadams.net ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Always Learning
On Mon, 2015-04-27 at 14:21 -0500, Chris Adams wrote: Can we take the license wanking off the list please? I don't think either of the people arguing are actually lawyers, so it has no relevance. Relevance is not dependent on being, or not being, a lawyer. Relevance for inclusion on the

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-27 Thread Joerg Schilling
Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Always Learning cen...@u64.u22.net wrote: Yes, in english, 'work as a whole' does mean complete. And the normal interpretation is that it covers everything linked into the same process at runtime unless there is

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Pete Geenhuizen
On 04/24/15 06:07, E.B. wrote: I'm sure most people here know about Dash in Debian. Have there been discussions about providing a more efficient shell in Centos for use with heavily invoked non-interactive scripts? With sh being a link to bash in Centos I don't know if it would explode if the

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Joerg Schilling
Stephen Harris li...@spuddy.org wrote: Bash was bigger than ksh in the non-commercial Unix world because of ksh88 licensing problems. Back in 1998 I wanted to teach a ksh scripting course to my local LUG, but ATT (David Korn himsef!) told me I couldn't give people copies of the shell to take

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Joerg Schilling
Pete Geenhuizen p...@geenhuizen.net wrote: Initially Bourne was used because it was typically a static binary, because the boot process didn't have access to any shared libraries. When that changed it became a bit of a moot point, and you started to see other interpreters being used.

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Joerg Schilling
Stephen Harris li...@spuddy.org wrote: AFAIR, ksh was OSS (but not using an OSI approved license) since 1997. Since In 1998 each user had to sign a license; you couldn't give away copies to other people. Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:09:30 -0400 (EDT) From: David Korn

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Les Mikesell
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 7:02 AM, mark m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: I'm sure most people here know about Dash in Debian. Have there been discussions about providing a more efficient shell in Centos for use with heavily invoked non-interactive scripts? With sh being a link to bash in Centos I don't

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread mark
On 04/24/15 06:57, Pete Geenhuizen wrote: On 04/24/15 06:07, E.B. wrote: I'm sure most people here know about Dash in Debian. Have there been discussions about providing a more efficient shell in Centos for use with heavily invoked non-interactive scripts? With sh being a link to bash in

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Eckert, Doug
It was the mid/late-90s, but I seem to recall Bourne being the default shell, although sh/ksh/csh were all available with a typical install. On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Scott Robbins scot...@nyc.rr.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 08:02:56AM -0400, mark wrote: On 04/24/15 06:57, Pete

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Stephen Harris
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 08:32:45AM -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: Wasn't Solaris, which for awhile at least, was probably the most popular Unix, using ksh by default? Solaris /bin/sh was a real real dumb version of the bourne shell. Solaris included /bin/ksh as part of the core distribution (ksh88

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Scott Robbins
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 08:02:56AM -0400, mark wrote: On 04/24/15 06:57, Pete Geenhuizen wrote: On 04/24/15 06:07, E.B. wrote: I'm sure most people here know about Dash in Debian. Have there been discussions about providing a more efficient shell in Centos for use with heavily invoked

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Pete Geenhuizen
Initially Bourne was used because it was typically a static binary, because the boot process didn't have access to any shared libraries. When that changed it became a bit of a moot point, and you started to see other interpreters being used. Even though Solaris started using ksh as the

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Joerg Schilling
Stephen Harris li...@spuddy.org wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 08:32:45AM -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: Wasn't Solaris, which for awhile at least, was probably the most popular Unix, using ksh by default? Solaris /bin/sh was a real real dumb version of the bourne shell. Solaris included

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Stephen Harris
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 03:15:27PM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote: Stephen Harris li...@spuddy.org wrote: Bash was bigger than ksh in the non-commercial Unix world because of ksh88 licensing problems. Back in 1998 I wanted to teach a ksh scripting course to my local LUG, but ATT (David

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Stephen Harris
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 08:54:48AM -0400, Pete Geenhuizen wrote: Even though Solaris started using ksh as the default user environment, almost all of the start scrips were either bourne or bash scripts. With Bash having more functionality the scripts typically used the environment that

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Joerg Schilling
Stephen Harris li...@spuddy.org wrote: Solaris /bin/sh was a real real dumb version of the bourne shell. If you like to create portable scripts, you can do this by downloading: https://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/ and using osh as a reference implementation. Osh is the

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Joerg Schilling
m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Fascinating. As I'd been in Sun OS, and started doing admin work when it became Solaris, I'd missed that bit. A question: did the license agreement include payment, or was it just restrictive on distribution? Everything other than ksh93 is closed source. The POSIX

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Valeri Galtsev
On Fri, April 24, 2015 12:04 pm, John R Pierce wrote: On 4/24/2015 9:47 AM, Gordon Messmer wrote: On 04/24/2015 03:57 AM, Pete Geenhuizen wrote: if you leave it out the script will run in whatever environment it currently is in. I'm reasonably certain that a script with no shebang will run

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread zep
I believe if you re-read a little more closely, the whole point of the exercise was not to have the #! at the top of the script. On 04/24/2015 01:36 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote: On Fri, April 24, 2015 12:04 pm, John R Pierce wrote: On 4/24/2015 9:47 AM, Gordon Messmer wrote: On 04/24/2015 03:57

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Les Mikesell
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 12:04 PM, John R Pierce pie...@hogranch.com wrote: On 4/24/2015 9:47 AM, Gordon Messmer wrote: On 04/24/2015 03:57 AM, Pete Geenhuizen wrote: if you leave it out the script will run in whatever environment it currently is in. I'm reasonably certain that a script

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread John R Pierce
On 4/24/2015 3:07 AM, E.B. wrote: I'm sure most people here know about Dash in Debian. Have there been discussions about providing a more efficient shell in Centos for use with heavily invoked non-interactive scripts? perl or python are much better choices for complex scripts that need

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread m . roth
Stephen Harris wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 03:15:27PM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote: Stephen Harris li...@spuddy.org wrote: Bash was bigger than ksh in the non-commercial Unix world because of ksh88 licensing problems. Back in 1998 I wanted to teach a ksh scripting course to my local

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Les Mikesell
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:12 AM, John R Pierce pie...@hogranch.com wrote: On 4/24/2015 3:07 AM, E.B. wrote: I'm sure most people here know about Dash in Debian. Have there been discussions about providing a more efficient shell in Centos for use with heavily invoked non-interactive scripts?

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Gordon Messmer
On 04/24/2015 03:57 AM, Pete Geenhuizen wrote: if you leave it out the script will run in whatever environment it currently is in. I'm reasonably certain that a script with no shebang will run with /bin/sh. I interpret your statement to mean that if a user is using ksh and enters the path

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Steve Lindemann
On 4/24/2015 10:47 AM, Gordon Messmer wrote: On 04/24/2015 03:57 AM, Pete Geenhuizen wrote: if you leave it out the script will run in whatever environment it currently is in. I'm reasonably certain that a script with no shebang will run with /bin/sh. I interpret your statement to mean that

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread John R Pierce
On 4/24/2015 9:47 AM, Gordon Messmer wrote: On 04/24/2015 03:57 AM, Pete Geenhuizen wrote: if you leave it out the script will run in whatever environment it currently is in. I'm reasonably certain that a script with no shebang will run with /bin/sh. I interpret your statement to mean that

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Gordon Messmer
On 04/24/2015 09:59 AM, Steve Lindemann wrote: A script with no shebang will run in the environment of the account running the script. Bad test on my part, apparently. $ python import os os.execv('/home/gmessmer/test', ('test',)) Traceback (most recent call last): File stdin, line 1, in

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread E.B.
Interesting thread i started! Sorry if my question was too vague: -- On Fri, 4/24/15, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: The Bourne Shell is also much faster than bash. In special on platforms like Cygwin, where Microsoft enforces extremly slow process creation. This

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Les Mikesell
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:04 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: My first RH was 5, late nineties. First time I looked at linux and installed, it was '95, and slack. (We'll ignore the Coherent that I installed on my beloved 286 in the late 80's). snip You mean you missed all the fun with Xenix on

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Les Mikesell
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:45 PM, E.B. emailbuilde...@yahoo.com wrote: Interesting thread i started! Sorry if my question was too vague: -- On Fri, 4/24/15, Joerg Schilling joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote: The Bourne Shell is also much faster than bash. In special on platforms like

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread m . roth
Les Mikesell wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:04 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: My first RH was 5, late nineties. First time I looked at linux and installed, it was '95, and slack. (We'll ignore the Coherent that I installed on my beloved 286 in the late 80's). snip You mean you missed all

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Stephen Harris
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:38:25AM -0400, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Fascinating. As I'd been in Sun OS, and started doing admin work when it became Solaris, I'd missed that bit. A question: did the license agreement include payment, or was it just restrictive on distribution? In 1990, when I

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Jack Bailey
On 04/24/15 05:59, Les Mikesell wrote: The original ksh wasn't open source and might even have been an extra-cost item in ATT unix. And the early emulations weren't always complete so you couldn't count on script portability. I generally thought it was safer to use perl for anything that took

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread John R Pierce
On 4/24/2015 12:32 PM, Gordon Messmer wrote: On 04/24/2015 09:59 AM, Steve Lindemann wrote: A script with no shebang will run in the environment of the account running the script. Bad test on my part, apparently. $ python import os os.execv('/home/gmessmer/test', ('test',)) Traceback

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread Stephen Harris
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 09:47:24AM -0700, Gordon Messmer wrote: On 04/24/2015 03:57 AM, Pete Geenhuizen wrote: if you leave it out the script will run in whatever environment it currently is in. I'm reasonably certain that a script with no shebang will run with /bin/sh. I interpret your

Re: [CentOS] Real sh? Or other efficient shell for non-interactive scripts

2015-04-24 Thread m . roth
Stephen Harris wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:38:25AM -0400, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Fascinating. As I'd been in Sun OS, and started doing admin work when it became Solaris, I'd missed that bit. A question: did the license agreement include payment, or was it just restrictive on