On 6 Mrz., 17:07, lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca wrote:
I know some business where HR and IT managers come back with this mantra
that they can find Java and .Net coders, anything else is too risky or
too scarce on the market.
Right. I am sure a lot of those managers really think that way.
If
On 6 Mrz., 19:21, Phil Hagelberg p...@hagelb.org wrote:
The only other thing I can think of is short-lived command-line tools
that need subsecond launch times.
The Lisp repl is the command-line. There is no starting time
of the JVM involved.
i really am curious about how good clojure can be as a language for
prototyping new *languages* (and new paradigms). this has always been
a strength of lisp and scheme, but they both support imperative as
well as functional programming. as an example: how easy would it be to
implement a language
Is it fair to say that Clojure shines in algorithmic processing, string
processing, concurrency management, but that there are better choices in
other areas:
not an answer, but a follow-on question: how well does clojure
currently support multimedia programming? i realize it supports it to
Here's my experience...
I was primarily interested in Clojure as a scripting language. I
wanted a nice layer to control code written in Java. I had used
Groovy successfully, but missed macros and an extensible syntax. I
used to work at Lisp Machines, so I jumped on a LISP that compiled to
the
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 11:31 AM, opus111 opus...@gmail.com wrote:
Here's my experience...
I was primarily interested in Clojure as a scripting language. I
wanted a nice layer to control code written in Java. I had used
Groovy successfully, but missed macros and an extensible syntax. I
This is almost exactly my experience in PHX at our user groups.
Unfortunately I am also trying to hire people and I find the people
here have no interest in learning something new because they already
know java (at least the ones I've seen on interviews).
On Mar 11, 11:22 am, Howard Lewis Ship
On Mar 11, 11:11 pm, e evier...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Stuart Sierra
the.stuart.sie...@gmail.comwrote:
Ok, here's a real one: if you need to use a lot of C/C++ libraries,
for which there are no Java replacements, Clojure won't be much fun,
because C/C++
I ran into a bit of the but we can hire Java coders mentality when I
presented Clojure at a local JUG.
Due to time constraints, I didn't get into it at the time, but my
basic thought is:
I don't care what you know, I care what you can learn!
Also, there's the myth of the immediately productive
Ok, here's a real one: if you need to use a lot of C/C++ libraries,
for which there are no Java replacements, Clojure won't be much fun,
because C/C++ interop with Java is not fun. You'll probably be
happier with a Lisp/Scheme implementation that compiles to C; several
such languages exist.
Agreed.
An interesting parallel is getting Java developers to use Javascript
well - sure, anyone can look at javascript code and probably work it
out - it's a much smaller jump to javascript syntax than clojure
syntax.
But even so, I know lots of Java coders who never really get
javascript stuff
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Stuart Sierra
the.stuart.sie...@gmail.comwrote:
Ok, here's a real one: if you need to use a lot of C/C++ libraries,
for which there are no Java replacements, Clojure won't be much fun,
because C/C++ interop with Java is not fun. You'll probably be
happier
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 12:17 AM, bOR_ boris.sch...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not from the software engineers field, but how difficult is it for
some non-lisp, but java-savvy software writer to pick up a 600-line
clojure program and learn to understand it?
I think the majority of Java programmers
Also, how do you think this increase in required effort grows? What if
we are talking about a +10.000-line Clojure program? Now add schedule
pressure, deadlines and the cost of missed oppotunities and you will
find that many companies sees the introduction of a new programming
language -
- You aren't going to find a job in your favorite city using your favorite
language in your favorite domain. Decide what you value the most and go from
there.
nice post! but only the cities and domains are fairly well enumerated. I
guess 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
That's the whole idea, if your current coding habits are not efficient
well
changing them involves taking a risk... otherwise everyone would do it.
Humans have a tendency to stay within their comfort zone. Stretching
that bubble takes time. No change however = stagnation and eventually
I've lived through this discussion for the past 3 years while writing web
applications using Ruby and Rails. Here's what I've learned:
- Using a language that the average stupid programmer can't understand
virtually guarantees that you'll increase your success chances, since you
and your
I'm not from the software engineers field, but how difficult is it for
some non-lisp, but java-savvy software writer to pick up a 600-line
clojure program and learn to understand it? I mean, everyone in this
forum managed to learn clojure to some degree without too much
trouble.. including me. If
bOR_ boris.sch...@gmail.com writes:
I'm not from the software engineers field, but how difficult is it for
some non-lisp, but java-savvy software writer to pick up a 600-line
clojure program and learn to understand it?
I suspect it has more to do with people thinking they can't do it than
Well, there is no real replacement for raw intelligence, but I hope we'll
all agree that attitude and curiosity are also critical.
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Phil Hagelberg p...@hagelb.org wrote:
bOR_ boris.sch...@gmail.com writes:
I'm not from the software engineers field, but how
Membership to this group is _very_ self-selecting; you can't expect
things that are true here to be true across the board.
-Phil
I expect membership will increase once Stu's book is released. It will
give people a much more structured way to get familiar with the
language.
On Mar 6, 9:47 am, lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca wrote:
For us Clojure = less useless code lines = fast delivery
= less test headaches = major success :
I agree 100%, although I have the unusual advantage of working alone.
The succinctness of Lisp with Java's library support is a perfect
Is it fair to say that Clojure shines in algorithmic processing, string
processing, concurrency management, but that there are better choices in
other areas:
- Application programming , where the key challenge is fitting a standard
three-tier application to the business domain.
- Enterprise
On Mar 6, 8:15 am, Joshua Fox joshuat...@gmail.com wrote:
Is it fair to say that Clojure shines in algorithmic processing, string
processing, concurrency management, but that there are better choices in
other areas:
- Application programming , where the key challenge is fitting a standard
Application programming is exactly what we do with Clojure,
we are not using it in a bubble, it's there to implement all
the complex logic we need.
We use over 130 jars (Spring,...) and we use them from both Clojure and
some Java components. We are replacing with Clojure code
the Java high
The biggest barrier to using Clojure in an enterprise environment is
that enterprise projects are typically built and maintained by 100s of
replaceable code-monkeys and consultants, all of which understand Java
and almost none of which understand Lisp of any kind, let alone
Clojure.
To be
I agree about consultants (these days it's not anymore an synonym for
expert) and the state of the market but...
If you write a new software product and
you are concerned with deadlines and speed in general, Java is not
the way to go anymore considering the pile of code you need to do
anything
If these theories are correct (and I believe they are) then this is
an opportunity to beat the crap out these guys in head-to-head competition.
The Rails guys seem to have successfully broken into industry by being
better (relatively compared to Java/VB/C#). We can do the same thing if we
don't
On Mar 6, 7:46 am, Luke VanderHart luke.vanderh...@gmail.com wrote:
The biggest barrier to using Clojure in an enterprise environment is
that enterprise projects are typically built and maintained by 100s of
replaceable code-monkeys and consultants, all of which understand Java
and almost
On Mar 6, 2009, at 14:15, Joshua Fox wrote:
Is it fair to say that Clojure shines in algorithmic processing,
string processing, concurrency management, but that there are
better choices in other areas:
I'd say that Clojure is probably suited for anything that the JVM is
suited for. Its
Oh, I agree with you 100%.
I outlined why I wouldn't use Clojure in a project self-described as
enterprise, but at risk of ranting I didn't get into how I consider
the word enterprise synonymous with bloated, bureaucracy-bound,
over-engineered, unoriginal and above all /expensive/ ball of tar.
My wife and I both write software. She think's I'm insane to use
Clojure because the poor sucker who has to maintain what I've written
will be uncomfortable with anything other than Java. (She may also
think the poor sucker won't want to deal with my dubious programming
skills, but that's
Usually if has mustaches, 4 legs, oval shaped eyes, fur and
makes p ! prrr ! when I touch it, I call it a cat :)))
Most of my customers are accustomed to my crude language.
Since they have results when they deal with me compared to what
they get internally and from other suppliers, they
Konrad Hinsen konrad.hin...@laposte.net writes:
As for what JVM languages are not good for in general, there is the
obvious domain of systems-level programming, and there are other
domains such as number crunching, where there is a severe lack of
good libraries in the Java world.
The
Hi,
Am 06.03.2009 um 19:21 schrieb Phil Hagelberg:
The only other thing I can think of is short-lived command-line tools
that need subsecond launch times.
Even this can be addressed via Nailgun as I use
it now for dynamic VimClojure (aka Gorilla). A
server runs in the background and invoking
Clojure is not good for:
- Real time application development, due to the JVM being soft-real
time. For example it can't be used for high-performance video pc/
console games, but it could be used for lots of turn-based games. Then
again anything done with XNA on the XBOX could be done with
- Writing small utility programs, as it requires certain things to
be installed properly (For example using java -serever with the
correct JVM). For example I can't see myself deploying small utility
application at work written with Clojure, as it would make people
screaming, why they
Real time is a special application domain. I am not sure that most
people want to work
in this domain (I did for several years with VMS and a power utility).
As for start up time for small utility commands I disagree, this is
something that
could change if we start to use the hardware a bit more
Excuse my ignorance but these expressions occasionally and not wise
together are just opaque to me.
If my desktop was crawling because of the load, I might understand the
goal
of manually managing services but it's not the case at all.
Services not used are simply swapped if the system needs
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