I just wanted to say thanks to Stuart Sierra for test-is. When I start
using some new compiler, there always comes a point, if I keep it up
long enough, that I get annoyed with my little ad hoc tests and want
some sort of testing framework to make things easier. test-is does the
job. Thanks,
Joshua jhaw...@gmail.com writes:
Hi Joshua,
The eclipse plugin also provides some debugging support.
Ok, so Eclipse IntelliJ support debugging. Does SLIME do, too?
Bye,
Tassilo
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On Mar 10, 11:44 pm, e evier...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:26 AM, Raffael Cavallaro
raffaelcavall...@gmail.com wrote:
[...comments on Harrop's marketing tactics...]
h, that could sound like more of an endorsement than anything he could
have said, himself!
Phil Hagelberg p...@hagelb.org writes:
Hi Phil,
If not, is there better way than inserting gazillions of printlns to
check why and where a function doesn't do the right thing?
Most definitely! Break your functions up into smaller pieces, then
write tests for them using test-is. If your
On Mar 10, 8:24 pm, Kevin Downey redc...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know how many arguments the method you are overriding with
onLogin takes, but the function you define should take one more
argument then the method you are overiding, the first argument being
an explicit reference to an
Is (first (filter ..) lazy like in haskell ?
I would hate to wait for filter to get all results just to throw them
out and pick the first one.
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To post
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Vagif Verdi vagif.ve...@gmail.com wrote:
Is (first (filter ..) lazy like in haskell ?
Yes.
I would hate to wait for filter to get all results just to throw them
out and pick the first one.
--
Venlig hilsen / Kind regards,
Christian Vest Hansen.
filter is lazy. first is not
3/11 Vagif Verdi vagif.ve...@gmail.com
Is (first (filter ..) lazy like in haskell ?
I would hate to wait for filter to get all results just to throw them
out and pick the first one.
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Hi!
I thinking of test to use Emacs for Clojure development, but under
Windows i have found 2 diffrent
XEmacs or Gnu Emacs what is the recommendation, to use... ?!!
Or is it just a matter of tast..
// Anders
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Not sure about XEmacs vs Gnu Emacs but for GNU Emacs there are some
options. By far the best option when starting out is ClojureBox:
http://clojure.bighugh.com/
It's a one-click installer to get you started. It includes everything
you need to develop in Clojure with Emacs including Slime.
If
Thanks, will test this.
// Anders
On 11 Mar, 12:00, Paul Drummond paul.drumm...@iode.co.uk wrote:
Not sure about XEmacs vs Gnu Emacs but for GNU Emacs there are some
options. By far the best option when starting out is ClojureBox:
http://clojure.bighugh.com/
It's a one-click installer to
Or you can compile emacs from CVS for yourself. It's not that hard as
it used do be.
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To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com
To
Probably. The Java BigInteger classes are not particularly fast, and do not
seem to be a priority to Sun. Therefore Clojure is not competitive on large
integer algorithms.
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 2:21 AM, Tassilo Horn tass...@member.fsf.orgwrote:
Phil Hagelberg p...@hagelb.org writes:
Hi
I just starting playing around with clojure, and i know nothing of
java beyond the syntax. I am trying to implement an interface that
gets called by some 3rd party application whenver an event occurs. If
i was doing this in haskell I would serialize the events in a channel
and write a parser to
2009/3/11 mikel mev...@mac.com
Saying that something sucks and suggesting that people who like it are
fools isn't an argument, it's just yanking people's chains to get
attention.
Are you talking about Linus's speak against cvs, subversion and their users
? :-)
ok, this was just a joke,
I use test-is too, this is a very usefull test framework. The
framework is very easy to use and provide nice output when tests
fail.
Since I'm still learning Clojure, I do enjoy using the actual versus
expected output of a failed test.
Thanks again Mr. Sierra,
On Wednesday 11 March 2009 04:44:17 e wrote:
...Afterall he could have chosen a dynamically typed language for his
business if he had wanted to...
FWIW, my company ships products written in many different languages including
dynamic languages and I have been programming in dynamic languages
On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:31, Jon Harrop wrote:
Most of the reasons given in this thread were red herrings and many
of static
typing's real issues were not even touched upon:
...
I'd add two more:
- Metaprogramming is a lot more complicated with static typing. Look
at MetaOCaml or
I have a question about cells. I'm not sure how to explain my problem
so maybe the easiest way is to show some code.
Let's say I have this piece of code:
(def my-atom (atom {... big map with many entries ...}))
.
(add-watch my-atom :update update-fn)
.
(swap! my-atom (some-fn ...))
When
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:31 PM, Jon Harrop j...@ffconsultancy.com wrote:
[...]
2. The whole thing does not need to be complete or even functional for
you to start unit testing.
Apples and oranges: unit tests are not the same between dynamic and static
code bases because dynamic code
It is impossible to give a simple answer. You need to be more specific
about the needs of your application. Will it need to be concurrent, for
instance?
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Anatoly Yakovenko aeyakove...@gmail.comwrote:
I just starting playing around with clojure, and i know
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:44 PM, e evier...@gmail.com wrote:
My interest right now in following clojure is to learn ALL the arguments,
including his.
The problems with Jon's criticisms is that they are the same fear,
uncertainty and doubt ideas that are repeated time and time again by
Currently the clojure.contrib.walk code provides a nice way to perform a
depth first map operation on trees. However, I need to fold across a tree.
It would be nice if walk provided this.
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On Mar 11, 4:41 am, Allen Rohner aroh...@gmail.com wrote:
Replying to my own question because I figured it out. On the profiler
tab, before you hit start profiling, click the settings checkbox.
Edit the start from class field. Mine was set to jline.**. After
changing it to the appropriate
On Mar 8, 2009, at 18:53, Rich Hickey wrote:
I know people usually think of collections when they see vector/map/
set, and they think classes and types define something else. However,
the vast majority of class and type instances in various languages are
actually maps, and what the
On Wednesday 11 March 2009 15:05:39 Konrad Hinsen wrote:
On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:31, Jon Harrop wrote:
Most of the reasons given in this thread were red herrings and many
of static
typing's real issues were not even touched upon:
...
I'd add two more:
- Metaprogramming is a lot more
On Mar 11, 11:20 am, linh nguyenlinh.m...@gmail.com wrote:
According to the API doc, add-watch must have 4 args: a key, a
reference,
its old-state and its new state. What I'm missing here is an addtional
arg that can be passed in some way to update-fn so that update-fn
knows what entries
On Mar 11, 1:24 pm, Raffael Cavallaro raffaelcavall...@gmail.com
wrote:
;; this just makes a big map atom where integer keys are associated
with integer values
should rather be as follows to get integer keyword keys:
(def my-atom
(atom (assoc (apply hash-map
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Konrad Hinsen
konrad.hin...@laposte.netwrote:
On Mar 8, 2009, at 18:53, Rich Hickey wrote:
I know people usually think of collections when they see vector/map/
set, and they think classes and types define something else. However,
the vast majority of
On Wednesday 11 March 2009 15:30:01 Cosmin Stejerean wrote:
Actually it happens a lot in real code and in many non-trivial programs in
static typed languages you end up with a proliferation of types that are
simply there to make the compiler happy. To me it happens very often where
I know
Just updated, working like a charm.
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 5:17 PM, CuppoJava patrickli_2...@hotmail.com wrote:
Have you updated to the latest version?
If it's setup properly, you should be able to set breakpoints by
clicking on the grey column on the left side of your code.
Also, not
pmf wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:41 am, Allen Rohner aroh...@gmail.com wrote:
Replying to my own question because I figured it out. On the profiler
tab, before you hit start profiling, click the settings checkbox.
Edit the start from class field. Mine was set to jline.**. After
changing it to
Another red herring: you are describing a disadvantage of nominal over
structural typing. Not dynamic vs static typing.
there are probably several different arguments being conflated in such
discussions.
for example, theory vs. practice: there is the theory of what in fact
are the options
Hi Remco,
If you've written up anything, or plan to, on your progress on getting
Clojure going on the Android platform I'm very interested in learning
more.
Thanks!
Rob
On Feb 6, 12:29 pm, Remco van 't Veer rwvtv...@gmail.com wrote:
Got startup time down to 5 seconds by completely eliminating
That is exciting! Have you posted any code or advice/instruction on
how one could repeat what you did with Clojure on the Android phone?
Rob
On Feb 6, 12:29 pm, Remco van 't Veer rwvtv...@gmail.com wrote:
Got startup time down to 5 seconds by completely eliminating the use
of lispreader and
Thanks Raffael, I'll try that
On Mar 11, 6:42 pm, Raffael Cavallaro raffaelcavall...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Mar 11, 1:24 pm, Raffael Cavallaro raffaelcavall...@gmail.com
wrote:
;; this just makes a big map atom where integer keys are associated
with integer values
should rather be as
I ran into a bit of the but we can hire Java coders mentality when I
presented Clojure at a local JUG.
Due to time constraints, I didn't get into it at the time, but my
basic thought is:
I don't care what you know, I care what you can learn!
Also, there's the myth of the immediately productive
Is there a more efficient way of getting the keys of a struct-map
besides creating an instance and passing it to keys:
(def ts (create-struct :a :b))
(keys (struct ts))
(:a :b)
Thanks,
Jim
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On Wednesday 11 March 2009 18:18:59 Raoul Duke wrote:
Another red herring: you are describing a disadvantage of nominal over
structural typing. Not dynamic vs static typing.
there are probably several different arguments being conflated in such
discussions.
for example, theory vs.
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Jon Harrop j...@ffconsultancy.com wrote:
On Wednesday 11 March 2009 15:30:01 Cosmin Stejerean wrote:
Actually it happens a lot in real code and in many non-trivial programs
in
static typed languages you end up with a proliferation of types that are
simply
if your walk pushes the items into a Queue, you can just reduce across the Queue
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Jeffrey Straszheim
straszheimjeff...@gmail.com wrote:
Currently the clojure.contrib.walk code provides a nice way to perform a
depth first map operation on trees. However, I need
Yeah, I figured something like that out, but it was non-obvious.
It might be nice helper function sometime down the road.
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Kevin Downey redc...@gmail.com wrote:
if your walk pushes the items into a Queue, you can just reduce across the
Queue
On Wed, Mar 11,
On Wednesday 11 March 2009 18:35:46 Cosmin Stejerean wrote:
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Jon Harrop j...@ffconsultancy.com wrote:
Another red herring: you are describing a disadvantage of nominal over
structural typing. Not dynamic vs static typing.
You are correct, my apologies. I
On Mar 11, 5:26 am, Raffael Cavallaro raffaelcavall...@gmail.com
wrote:
Some of you may not know of Jon's behvior on comp.lang.lisp so some
background will be useful here.
I would appreciate it if you would consider his arguments instead of
discrediting him. His post is not insulting and
Replying to my own (old) post -- the reason why all reader
capabilities aren't available in #= forms is that the reader isn't
currently being recursively applied to the body of those forms. Only
certain aspects of the full reader's functionality (like dotted
constructor invocations) are being
I don't think it is impossible to begin adding type inference and
stronger typing to clojure or any fully dynamic language.
You could begin with a set of runtime tests (such as range of a given
number or what keys are in a dictionary). These tests allow you to go
from an untyped world to a
On Wednesday 11 March 2009 20:27:15 chris wrote:
Lets take this discussion forward and think of how we could
incrementally add the important benefits of strongly typed and
inferred systems like ML, Haskell, and F# to Clojure while keeping the
very beautiful and clean syntax and minimal mental
On Mar 11, 4:17 pm, ntu...@googlemail.com ntu...@googlemail.com
wrote:
I would appreciate it if you would consider his arguments instead of
discrediting him. His post is not insulting and contains valid
arguments. So please don't shoot the messenger.
When the messenger is habitually
You can get those warm fuzzies back when you develop in an IDE such as
Netbeans, IntelliJ, or Eclipse. They can compile the code and provide
some feedback. The plugins are kinda young, but they may provide
enough to help make the jump.
Joshua
On Mar 10, 1:16 am, zoltar
They are not currently exposed, but a trivial patch will achieve what
you want:
http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/web/struct.patch
user= (defstruct ts :a :b)
#'user/ts
user= (struct-keys ts)
(:a :b)
Regards,
Tim.
On Mar 12, 5:23 am, jim jim.d...@gmail.com wrote:
Is there a more
On Mar 11, 12:24 pm, Jeffrey Straszheim straszheimjeff...@gmail.com
wrote:
Currently the clojure.contrib.walk code provides a nice way to perform a
depth first map operation on trees. However, I need to fold across a tree.
It would be nice if walk provided this.
Hi Jeffrey,
I agree it would
This is beacuse my-atom contains a lot
of data and I don't want to search for the change.
Just curious, but shouldn't equality tests in Clojure always be
instant regardless of data size due to shared structure? I suppose I'm
curious what 'shared structure' gives and what it doesn't.
On Mar 11, 2:45 am, mikel mev...@mac.com wrote:
I just wanted to say thanks to Stuart Sierra for test-is.
On Mar 11, 9:15 am, stephaner stepha...@gmail.com wrote:
I use test-is too, this is a very usefull test framework.
You're both very welcome!
-Stuart Sierra
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Vagif Verdi vagif.ve...@gmail.com
wrote:
Is (first (filter ..) lazy like in haskell ?
It's lazy in the sense that it will only consume the sequence up to
first positive result.
If it doesn't find one, it will consume the entire sequence and return
nil.
Ok, here's a real one: if you need to use a lot of C/C++ libraries,
for which there are no Java replacements, Clojure won't be much fun,
because C/C++ interop with Java is not fun. You'll probably be
happier with a Lisp/Scheme implementation that compiles to C; several
such languages exist.
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Cosmin Stejerean cstejer...@gmail.com wrote:
IMHO a big reason Python programmers don't typically treat objects like is
maps/dictionaries is that the set of things found in the map (dictionary)
for that object (__dict__) are just a small subset of the
Hi Anatoly,
Unfortunately I don't know of a nice way of expressing an event-driven
architecture in Clojure, but I'm very interested in what you said
about accomplishing it in Haskell.
Would you mind explaining that in some more detail? Perhaps if I
understood it, I can even help come up with a
It seems it makes Clojure source code to be in the order of lowest-to-
highest abstraction.
Naive mutual recursion based on top-level functions is impossible.
I am curious, is it due to the current implementaiton of Reader or by
design?
Best regards,
Leonid
Also, I've not looked at any of the math code in clojure contrib, but
expressed as such, I wouldn't expect the idiom (mod (expt n exp) m)
to be at all fast for reasons largely independent of the numeric
implementation underneath.
Computing the entire power and then reducing it modulo m is going
I've put together another cells-like library. Mine differs from the others
in that it uses ref's and transactions, allowing global integrity checks,
rollbacks, and other features that the agent based cells systems do not
have.
It can be found at:
On Mar 11, 4:23 pm, quasar quasistellarli...@gmail.com wrote:
It seems it makes Clojure source code to be in the order of lowest-to-
highest abstraction.
Naive mutual recursion based on top-level functions is impossible.
I am curious, is it due to the current implementaiton of Reader or by
Clojure does support forward referencing (if I understand your
question):
user= (declare a)
user= (defn b [x] (a x))
user= (defn a [x] (b x))
user= (a 4)
java.lang.StackOverflowError
Note: (declare a) is a synonym for (def a) which works also.
It is also quite trivial to patch the compiler to
On Thursday 12 March 2009 00:01:43 James Reeves wrote:
On Mar 11, 2:31 am, Jon Harrop j...@ffconsultancy.com wrote:
2. The whole thing does not need to be complete or even functional for
you to start unit testing.
Apples and oranges: unit tests are not the same between dynamic and
On the other hand, I do seem to get less bugs than with Ruby, so
perhaps immutability is a more significant factor than static typing
when it comes to creating robust applications.
in a way, i can totally believe that, and it sounds really good, even
if it isn't true :-)
i mean, one of the
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Chouser chou...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
Defining a instance method for a Python class allows you to connect
some code to your data, which internally uses a type pointer from the
instance to the class. In Clojure you can put functions directly in
the metadata
Agreed.
An interesting parallel is getting Java developers to use Javascript
well - sure, anyone can look at javascript code and probably work it
out - it's a much smaller jump to javascript syntax than clojure
syntax.
But even so, I know lots of Java coders who never really get
javascript stuff
Thanks. I found a way to accomplish what I needed, but I'll tuck that
patch in my back pocket for later.
Jim
On Mar 11, 5:07 pm, Timothy Pratley timothyprat...@gmail.com wrote:
They are not currently exposed, but a trivial patch will achieve what
you
On Thursday 12 March 2009 00:28:06 Raoul Duke wrote:
i mean, one of the major benefits, i think, of immutability is that
you are in so many ways actually reducing the cognitive load that you
are under when running mental simulations of your program -- which is
a crucial part of being a
I'm thinking about implementing a backtracking mechanism that throws
errors as a way to escape out of the current computation and try
another possibility. I'd want to create a specific error to escape,
and the backtracking mechanism should only catch this very specific
error.
Now, I vaguely
I know of someone who tracked all his bugs in a year of coding in both
Scheme (dynamic) and ML (static). He said that there was no real
difference. The kind of bugs that are caught by static type systems
are also quickly identified upon an initial run with a few basic test
cases in a dynamic
Doesn't error-kit do this?
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Mark Engelberg
mark.engelb...@gmail.comwrote:
I'm thinking about implementing a backtracking mechanism that throws
errors as a way to escape out of the current computation and try
another possibility. I'd want to create a specific
On Mar 12, 12:26 am, Jon Harrop j...@ffconsultancy.com wrote:
On Thursday 12 March 2009 00:01:43 James Reeves wrote:
This doesn't have to be the case. There is nothing inherently magical
about a types that makes them more concise to define than a unit test.
Type inference: you don't write
This is a nice post . . . would the partially static typing come from the
IDE? That seems like the trend right now, but then you gotta get a good
IDE, and no two would ever be the same, which I think is controversial.
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 4:27 PM, chris cnuern...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't
Hi Mike.
What are you talking about assume compilation of Clojure classes. For
this we have to implement first some script, which will compile some
of your files. You're first who asked for such functionality and this
is really cool. So, we're going to implement it in near-term future.
It seems
A while ago, I did some brute force tests on a simple stack-based
language to get some testable metrics on how many unit tests you need
to guarantee correctness. With a language of 7 instructions and a
maximum program size of 8 instructions, there are about 6.7 million
program permutations.
user= (use 'clojure.set)
nil
user= (set (list [:a 1] [:b 2]))
#{[:b 2] [:a 1]}
user= (set (list [:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3]))
#{[:b 2] [:c 3] [:a 1]}
user= (difference *1 *2)
#{[:c 3]}
user= (difference (set (list [:a 1] [:b 2])) (set (list [:a 1] [:b 2]
[:c 3])))
#{}
Is this a bug or am I just not
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Stuart Sierra
the.stuart.sie...@gmail.comwrote:
Ok, here's a real one: if you need to use a lot of C/C++ libraries,
for which there are no Java replacements, Clojure won't be much fun,
because C/C++ interop with Java is not fun. You'll probably be
happier
On Mar 11, 2009, at 11:11 PM, Raffael Cavallaro wrote:
user= (use 'clojure.set)
nil
user= (set (list [:a 1] [:b 2]))
#{[:b 2] [:a 1]}
user= (set (list [:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3]))
#{[:b 2] [:c 3] [:a 1]}
user= (difference *1 *2)
#{[:c 3]}
user= (difference (set (list [:a 1] [:b 2])) (set (list [:a
On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Mark Engelberg mark.engelb...@gmail.comwrote:
I've been using the Clojure-in-a-box setup for Windows, which was
absolutely instrumental in getting me to try out Clojure. But if I
keep downloading the latest versions of Clojure, it drifts out of sync
with the
On Mar 11, 11:43 pm, Stephen C. Gilardi squee...@mac.com wrote:
Here are the expressions and results in a simplified notation:
#{a b c} - #{a b} = #{c}
#{a b} - #{a b c} = #{}
ok, so I was misunderstanding how difference works. I thought both
would evaluate to #{c}.
thanks
Not that I have any immediate use for this at the moment, but I +1
your proposal. I make use of the ?. operating in Groovy, and it can
be helpful.
On Mar 10, 4:08 am, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello,
2009/3/10 Jason Wolfe jawo...@berkeley.edu
(let [person
And equality time does depend on the size of the data structure too it
seems:
user= (def v (doall (range 1000)))
user= (def v2 (doall (range 1000)))
user= (time (= v2 v))
Elapsed time: 2.772923 msecs
user= (def v (doall (range 10)))
user= (def v2 (doall (range 10)))
user= (time (= v2 v))
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