On Monday 24 March 2003 19:13, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
This is not a run for market share.
Isn't it??? The day the flow of developers goes towards .NET, the Java
advantage will disappear as well, the community will dry up of fresh blood.
The attitude We don't want new people use our product.
] a new kind of 'dist'
In the beginning, there was only one cocoon distribution, packaged with
two different packagers (zip for windows and tar.gz for unix and friends).
Then cocoon became very complex and we decided to create a binary
distribution to make things easier. Things were indeed easier
On Sun, 23 Mar 2003, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
In the beginning, there was only one cocoon distribution, packaged with
two different packagers (zip for windows and tar.gz for unix and friends).
Then cocoon became very complex and we decided to create a binary
distribution to make things
Stephan Michels wrote:
On Sun, 23 Mar 2003, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
In the beginning, there was only one cocoon distribution, packaged with
two different packagers (zip for windows and tar.gz for unix and friends).
Then cocoon became very complex and we decided to create a binary
distribution
So I whould like a solution there we offer a source distribution, and
binary distribution with a war, which includes all samples, and one
clean
war. So the user can first download the bin-dist, test all samples,
and experimentalize with the clean webapp. And then he is glad and want
At 12:11 PM 3/25/2003, you wrote:
So I whould like a solution there we offer a source distribution, and
binary distribution with a war, which includes all samples, and one
clean
war. So the user can first download the bin-dist, test all samples,
and experimentalize with the clean webapp.
On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, J.D. Daniels wrote:
So I whould like a solution there we offer a source distribution, and
binary distribution with a war, which includes all samples, and one
clean
war. So the user can first download the bin-dist, test all samples,
and experimentalize with the
J.D. Daniels wrote:
Cocoon is not an app.
It is a framework.
Amen!
And our users are not idiots, but experienced web programmers.
Let's treat them as such.
Stefano.
Hi, sorry to butt in like this, but I am a newcomer to Cocoon, and I
must say I am a bit worried by this suggestion. Trying to build Cocoon
2.1 dev on my W2K work station has proved a bit of a head ache. I have
checked the newest version from CVS to C:\Src\new_cocoon-2.1 on my
machine. When I
No no, it's very useful. Maybe I'm wrong :-/ I only want to prevent
that users be scared by the installation, which takes sometimes a lot of
time and knowledge. I'm, for example, very impatient, if some software
takes too much time, or too many dependencies just for the first look,
then I
Stephan Michels wrote, On 25/03/2003 18.46:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, J.D. Daniels wrote:
...
See where I am going here? This is what (IMHO) most of new cocoon users are
like. We are experienced developers. but chances are we won't be java
aware so the idea of two extra binaries will, i think
Again I repeat my suggestion... what about driving users to Forrest for
the impatient? It also contains preconfigured stuff for site building,
it seems perfect for the impatient, no?
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sorry I missed it the first time around.
Yes.
On Sunday 23 March 2003 15:25, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
[snip]
I propose to ship Cocoon 2.1 *AS IS*, sort of a cleaned-up version of
our current CVS and improve a little the 'INSTALL.txt' doc that will
suggest you to do
$ ./build.sh
$ ./cocoon.sh servlet
Isn't it possible to make
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
Am I the only one who heard complains about cocoon being very cool but
too hard to 'tune down' to simpler needs?
I'm asking because I'm starting to wonder if this is the case.
puzzled/
It's still 116 mails to go... But no, you are not alone.
Vadim
Le Mardi, 25 mars 2003, à 20:36 Europe/Zurich, Nicola Ken Barozzi a
écrit :
Again I repeat my suggestion... what about driving users to
Forrest for the impatient? It also contains preconfigured stuff for
site building, it seems perfect for the impatient, no?
I also missed it the first time
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
In the beginning, there was only one cocoon distribution, packaged
with two different packagers (zip for windows and tar.gz for unix and
friends).
Then cocoon became very complex and we decided to create a binary
distribution to make things easier. Things were indeed
On 23.Mar.2003 -- 03:25 PM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
I propose to ship Cocoon 2.1 *AS IS*, sort of a cleaned-up version of
our current CVS and improve a little the 'INSTALL.txt' doc that will
suggest you to do
$ ./build.sh
$ ./cocoon.sh servlet
and voila', that was it! or, if you
On Monday 24 March 2003 17:25, Christian Haul wrote:
This is an open *source* project, and a couple of things are a lot
easier to do at compile time rather than at run time.
Yes, like
./configure --prefix=/usr/local/
make
make install
for specifying installation directory, right?
Need to
J.D. Daniels wrote:
Well I am just a user... But you hit the nail right on the head there. I had
cocoon up and running within minutes the first time I found it, but was
extremely frustrated for months afterward, because I could load the samples
page... and SEE what it could do, but not be able to
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Monday 24 March 2003 02:08, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote, On 23/03/2003 15.25:
What do you think?
+1 for the source distro.
I agree, except...
As for the binary distro, we simply never did one really. What I'd like
to see is
cocoon-full.war
On 24.Mar.2003 -- 05:36 PM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Monday 24 March 2003 17:25, Christian Haul wrote:
This is an open *source* project, and a couple of things are a lot
easier to do at compile time rather than at run time.
Yes, like
./configure --prefix=/usr/local/
make
make install
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
Le Dimanche, 23 mars 2003, à 15:25 Europe/Zurich, Stefano Mazzocchi a
écrit :
...
Before you jump up and down and scream no, no, binaries are easier
for our users, get off your
life-without-a-compiler-windows-inflicted-mindset and think that every
JDK comes with a
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Cocoon is now a major opensource product, and as such its user base
includes more and more people that are far less technically skilled than
we are. Moreover (I already mentioned this) the power of Cocoon's
builtin components leads to many people using it without ever
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote, On 24/03/2003 11.53:
...
1) bandwidth reduction (yes, this should be our concern as cocoon is
getting so big)
Then start taking ant away from CVS and distros, and use a mirrored
download for the jars, it's part of the same thing.
I'm sure that if we don't give our users
Le Lundi, 24 mars 2003, à 11:43 Europe/Zurich, Stefano Mazzocchi a
écrit :
...Oh, sure, but I was thinking of calling the distribution
Apache_Cocoon_2.1.zip (or something like that)
so it won't have source written anywhere.
ok - if the distribution is psychologically correct then I'm fine.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Monday 24 March 2003 17:25, Christian Haul wrote:
This is an open *source* project, and a couple of things are a lot
easier to do at compile time rather than at run time.
Yes, like
./configure --prefix=/usr/local/
make
make install
for specifying installation
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote, On 24/03/2003 11.53:
...
1) bandwidth reduction (yes, this should be our concern as cocoon is
getting so big)
Then start taking ant away from CVS and distros,
This is coming up next! :)
and use a mirrored
download for the jars, it's part of
I'm not saying to make it inherently difficult for people (rather the
opposite, look how much energy I'm investing into this!) but to help
them focus on the right spot and if this makes more people fail early
rather than a few tens of emails down the road, well, I'm doing both
them and
Stefano wrote:
It's not a technical point, if it were only so we would be doing
releases by just tagging CVS probably.
I don't like your tone.
I'm afraid on this point I agree with Nicola Ken. From a technical perspective, it
makes complete sense to use a source build (even point people
On Monday 24 March 2003 18:14, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
BUT, a cocoon-sample.war would be great for Introduction. I.e. Download
that, drop it in your servlet container, and you have Cocoon's samples
running. I'm sure build process scares away some users instinctively,
Le Lundi, 24 mars 2003, à 12:38 Europe/Zurich, Upayavira a écrit :
But we have to take psychology into account. CVS scared me at
first. Build scared me
too. How do we make the learning curve easier? Why loose people who
don't get
past those first hurdles, when they may well be perfectly
On 24 Mar 2003 at 13:50, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
A possible scenario would be:
-user installs Java Web Start
-user goes to the Cocoon download page, clicks on a JNLP link which
starts a small install GUI -install GUI helps user download the Cocoon
source (maybe even specific CVS tags),
At 06:13 AM 3/24/2003, you wrote:
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Monday 24 March 2003 17:25, Christian Haul wrote:
This is an open *source* project, and a couple of things are a lot
easier to do at compile time rather than at run time.
Yes, like
./configure --prefix=/usr/local/
make
make install
for
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote, On 24/03/2003 12.21:
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
...
I'm sure that if we don't give our users a sample precompiled version
it will have a really negative impact on the alpha-view of Cocoon and
stop many from checking it out, whatever technical motive you may have.
I
On 24/03/2003 14:01 Upayavira wrote:
Great! Do others think this is worth doing?
Possible, sure. Worth doing, I really don't know.
Related to this thread:
I for one think the 'copy cocoon.war into webapps dir and look at
http://server:port/cocoon/' paradigm helps a lot of newcoming users up
On Monday, March 24, 2003, at 07:50 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
A source-only distribution is not necessarily harder to use, it all
depends how it is packaged and used.
... and documented. Most of the problems I've had with oss
make-install-before-try software were related to some glitch,
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
Le Lundi, 24 mars 2003, à 12:38 Europe/Zurich, Upayavira a écrit :
But we have to take psychology into account. CVS scared me at
first. Build scared me
too. How do we make the learning curve easier? Why loose people who
don't get
past those first hurdles, when
Geoff Howard wrote:
At 06:13 AM 3/24/2003, you wrote:
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Monday 24 March 2003 17:25, Christian Haul wrote:
This is an open *source* project, and a couple of things are a lot
easier to do at compile time rather than at run time.
Yes, like
./configure --prefix=/usr/local/
Le Lundi, 24 mars 2003, à 14:45 Europe/Zurich, Stefano Mazzocchi a
écrit :
...Right. I'll commit a dist target today to show you what I mean and
we'll vote from that, ok?
Way to go - this will help us make a better decision, and it doesn't
prevent making binary dists later on if needed.
...do
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote, On 24/03/2003 12.21:
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
...
I'm sure that if we don't give our users a sample precompiled version
it will have a really negative impact on the alpha-view of Cocoon and
stop many from checking it out, whatever technical
Steven Noels wrote:
On 24/03/2003 14:01 Upayavira wrote:
Great! Do others think this is worth doing?
Possible, sure. Worth doing, I really don't know.
I won't vote against it but I won't help it making it happen.
Related to this thread:
I for one think the 'copy cocoon.war into webapps dir
At 09:03 AM 3/24/2003, Stefano wrote:
Geoff Howard wrote:
snip/
Cocoon cuts across a number of different disciplines (java, xml at
least?) and so casual programmer means different things.
Very true.
I am amazed at the number of people on users who claim to know no java.
Yes. This is going to be
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
Geoff Howard wrote:
At 06:13 AM 3/24/2003, you wrote:
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Monday 24 March 2003 17:25, Christian Haul wrote:
This is an open *source* project, and a couple of things are a lot
easier to do at compile time rather than at run time.
Yes, like
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote, On 24/03/2003 15.23:
...
Nicola, in a perfect world, we would have totally isolated dynamic
blocks with a super block manager and totally run-time hot-deployable
stuff.
In that case, we would *NOT* need a source distro at all because people
would be able to tune their
Le Lundi, 24 mars 2003, à 15:31 Europe/Zurich, Geoff Howard a écrit :
...Would it help the psychological barrier to have a user friendly
Where is the binary document/paragraph available and hard to miss
that explains why we think even non programmers can and should build
this from source?
Not
On 24/03/2003 15:28 Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
I for one think the 'copy cocoon.war into webapps dir and look at
http://server:port/cocoon/' paradigm helps a lot of newcoming users up
running very fast.
please, define 'be up and running'.
Not knowing about javac, ant, and whatelse, just doing
life easier. So let's get over with this, and see what the users think.
They've been kept out of the loop for too long.
How about _asking_ the users beforehand? A quick poll in the users list
would give some helpful feedback wouldn't it?
Matthew
At 05:14 AM 3/24/2003, Stefano wrote:
Hmmm, I was thinking about adding build profiles the other day.. something
like:
./build.sh --profile=[profile] webapp
that will override the build properties from
[profile].properties
that include several different configuration properties that drive
At 09:28 AM 3/24/2003, Stefano wrote
snip/
Am I the only one who heard complains about cocoon being very cool but too
hard to 'tune down' to simpler needs?
I'm asking because I'm starting to wonder if this is the case.
puzzled/
Stefano.
No, you're not crazy. This has been a theme for a
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
Yes. This is going to be even more with the introduction of the flow
since people with client-side knowledge (html + css + javascript + xml
+ namespace + xslt) will be able to write full-blown web applications
with database connectivity *without*
Steven Noels wrote:
On 24/03/2003 15:28 Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
I for one think the 'copy cocoon.war into webapps dir and look at
http://server:port/cocoon/' paradigm helps a lot of newcoming users
up running very fast.
please, define 'be up and running'.
Not knowing about javac, ant,
At 10:41 AM 3/24/2003, Stefano wrote:
Steven Noels wrote:
On 24/03/2003 15:28 Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
I for one think the 'copy cocoon.war into webapps dir and look at
http://server:port/cocoon/' paradigm helps a lot of newcoming users up
running very fast.
please, define 'be up and
IMHO:
Cocoon is best suited to people who develop using other technologies - PHP
C++ Visual Basic etc, who have realized the limitations for end user
interaction.
Within a half hour, right now the way the system is, you can see what cocoon
does. It isn't an app, it is not a solution. It is a
On 24/3/03 11:00 am, Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote, On 24/03/2003 11.53:
...
1) bandwidth reduction (yes, this should be our concern as cocoon is
getting so big)
Then start taking ant away from CVS and distros, and use a mirrored
download for the
Pier Fumagalli wrote, On 24/03/2003 20.34:
On 24/3/03 11:00 am, Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote, On 24/03/2003 11.53:
...
1) bandwidth reduction
Then start taking ant away from CVS and distros, and use a mirrored
download for the jars, it's part of the same
In the beginning, there was only one cocoon distribution, packaged with
two different packagers (zip for windows and tar.gz for unix and friends).
Then cocoon became very complex and we decided to create a binary
distribution to make things easier. Things were indeed easier for new
users to
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote, On 23/03/2003 15.25:
...
So, in light of the good old triad
./configure; make; make install
I propose to ship Cocoon 2.1 *AS IS*, sort of a cleaned-up version of
our current CVS and improve a little the 'INSTALL.txt' doc that will
suggest you to do
$ ./build.sh
$
a little better.
JD
- Original Message -
From: Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Apache Cocoon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 6:25 AM
Subject: [proposal] a new kind of 'dist'
In the beginning, there was only one cocoon distribution, packaged with
two different
On Monday 24 March 2003 02:08, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote, On 23/03/2003 15.25:
What do you think?
+1 for the source distro.
I agree, except...
As for the binary distro, we simply never did one really. What I'd like
to see is
cocoon-full.war
no need, IMHO.
Le Dimanche, 23 mars 2003, à 15:25 Europe/Zurich, Stefano Mazzocchi a
écrit :
...
Before you jump up and down and scream no, no, binaries are easier
for our users, get off your
life-without-a-compiler-windows-inflicted-mindset and think that every
JDK comes with a compiler.
Technically, I'm
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