Re: [CODE4LIB] OpenFRBR
As an aside thought, it occurred to me during this discussion that an open-sourced IBDB (International Book Database) - a la IMDB, would be grand Web 2.0 and 21st Century project. Has Amazon and Open WorldCat and other similar services made an open IBDB an impossible dream? What if you could add your records to [insert catalog system or service here] *and* at the same time, populate an open-source book database with the records? Contribute to a home system, and a global one at the same time? I see that there's already a IDBD (Internet Broadway Database), but that issue aside.. Without building a new core data collection - beyond MARC, meets or exceeds FRBR needs and goals - how else can we envision getting there (next generation OPAC heaven)? Best, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] (speaking only for himself) Michael McCulley, Collection Analysis Online Services (CAOS) San Diego Public Library, 820 E Street, San Diego, CA 92101 Phone: 619-702-8731 / FAX: 619-233-1892 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [CODE4LIB] OpenFRBR ( http://www.openfrbr.org/ )
On Nov 1, 2006, at 11:56 PM, Tim Spalding wrote: It seems to me this functionality should be embedded in other applications-LibraryThing, for example, or WorldCat, or really any library catalog. How about popping OpenFRBR data up whenever you're on a page in Amazon, a la (and perhaps integrated with) LibX, etc.? It does make sense to start with some data. I like the idea of producing something that's will be separable from the data, though. It would be nice to have a tool that was usable in two ways: 1) a catalog maintainer (e.g. systems librarian) could apply the OpenFRBRization to their catalog. 2) An individual could use OpenFRBR on catalogs they encountered on the web. I'm not sure why you'd want to pop OpenFRBR data up on Amazon pages. The bookburro model is appealling, but Amazon itself is already somewhat FRBRized through the also available in and other versions and languages box. I could imagine adding Open FRBR functionality to bookburro for the OpenWorldCat link ONLY. For OpenWorldCat, bookburro could display information about other editions, as well as the current Yes or No indicating holdings of the particular item.What would that summary look like? And where would it link to? I like the edition/manifestation summary at Amazon, but I don't on the linked work summary. The snippet works because it displays hardcover, paperback, large print, then give a number of other editions. (Or Other versions and languages for movies.) But their work page (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/Gone-Wind-Margaret-Mitchell/dp/other-editions/0684 83068X/ref=dp_ed_all/002-6195591-3462464?ie=UTF8n=283155s=books ) forces you to *go* to multiple places, rather than pulling that information in because it doesn't have as much information as you might want. I think that the information display design will be really important in leveraging FRBRization. The weakness of LibX at the moment, is that it is library systems office driven. As an individual user, I have to ask my library to make an edition. So I would want the first attempts at OpenFRBRization to be usable without LibX. -Jodi Jodi Schneider Science Library Assistant Amherst College Amherst, MA 413-542-2076
Re: [CODE4LIB] OpenFRBR
Right, but CDDB is mostly about retrieval, not editing. OpenFRBR needs to embed its *editing* functions within something else, don't you think? Certainly, once it has data, it should offer itself via APIs like xISBN and thingISBN. PS: Desktop home cataloging software Bah! ;) On 11/2/06, Jonathan Rochkind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: William Denton wrote: On the site, I say what it might look like in a few months: A person grabs a book off the shelf and enters the ISBN into OpenFRBR. OpenFRBR checks all available sources [...] My suggestion for an even better scenario: A person grabs a book off the shelf, and enters the ISBN into an application they use for dealing with books. (LibraryThing, Desktop home cataloging software, professional cataloging software (!), firefox extension, local library web page, or the OpenFRBR web site itself). The application contacts OpenFRBR behind the scenes and checks all available Think of the way the CDDB works. Jonathan
Re: [CODE4LIB] OpenFRBR
And ideally make the editing functions accessible via APIs as well, so that e.g. if I edit an item in Zotero in such a way that captures FRBR-relevant information, Zotero can shoot off an update. Peter -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Spalding Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:10 AM To: CODE4LIB@listserv.nd.edu Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] OpenFRBR Right, but CDDB is mostly about retrieval, not editing. OpenFRBR needs to embed its *editing* functions within something else, don't you think? Certainly, once it has data, it should offer itself via APIs like xISBN and thingISBN. PS: Desktop home cataloging software Bah! ;) On 11/2/06, Jonathan Rochkind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: William Denton wrote: On the site, I say what it might look like in a few months: A person grabs a book off the shelf and enters the ISBN into OpenFRBR. OpenFRBR checks all available sources [...] My suggestion for an even better scenario: A person grabs a book off the shelf, and enters the ISBN into an application they use for dealing with books. (LibraryThing, Desktop home cataloging software, professional cataloging software (!), firefox extension, local library web page, or the OpenFRBR web site itself). The application contacts OpenFRBR behind the scenes and checks all available Think of the way the CDDB works. Jonathan
Re: [CODE4LIB] OpenFRBR
I think you are better off designing for real cases than made up ones. But I think you can find a real one that meets all the criteria you want anyway---doesn't Harry Potter fit that description of your made up book? Lord of the Rings is another good one. What's the point of a made up one? The point of a real one, especially such a popular one as Harry Potter, is in part to convince people that this really does have practical implications, it really does matter for actual things that actual people are concerned with, not just for hypothetical cases intentionally made up to be as complicated as possible. We're still at the stage, sadly, where many people need to be convinced that there is in fact a problem that the FRBR model, or the types of displays you are talking about, can be part of the solution for. Jonathan Kevin Kierans wrote: I like the idea of playing with what the customer/patron will see. The display, that is. Harry Potter is good. But I'd like to suggest a made up creature: The Furbur Wars by Manifest Work It is part of two series : like the Thomas Covenant series That it has a The Hobbit type prequel, not quite in the series, but patrons should be told about it. It can be found bound individually, or included in the entire series. It has the large print, movie (DVD and VHS), talking book ( abridged and unabridged), how the movie was made photograph book Many books about the book (literary criticism) Let's try and make this as hard as possible. Once we decide what we should then show the patron/customer who might send a single isbn to OpenFRBR, then we can talk about the DB structure that might do things behind the scenes... What do you think? Kevin -- Jonathan Rochkind Sr. Programmer/Analyst The Sheridan Libraries Johns Hopkins University 410.516.8886 rochkind (at) jhu.edu
Re: [CODE4LIB] OpenFRBR
The FRBR model indeed includes relationships to cover prequels, works about this work, etc. Many others. The FRBR model does not only include the relationships This work includes these expressions; this expression includes these manifestations etc. It also includes a variety of relationships between one work and another; and between one expression/manifestation and another (either of the same work or not). I think these are in fact just as important as the work-expression-manifestation structure that people are more focused on. However, it must be said that these relationships especially are really just an initial sketch, really just a suggestion. The exact relationships that the current FRBR draft outlines are not neccesarily the right ones. They need to be analyzed, they need to be tested. More work needs to be done. But that's not going to be done until people realize this is a part of the FRBR model in the first place! That the FRBR model is NOT just about work sets. I highly recommend reading the actual FRBR report. It is in fact quite readable and fairly easy to understand. Chapters 3 through 5 are where the model that has become known as FRBR is specified. PDF and HTML available here: http://www.ifla.org/VII/s13/frbr/frbr.htm Jonathan Kevin Kierans wrote: It is sad that people need convincing. We (a public library) are paying good money for enhanced content which provides some extra stuff not in the catalogue. So we know the public wants to know more than what is in the catalogue. Perhaps someone who knows more about it could answer: I was thinking that a patron staring at a catalog record in an OPAC might be interested in how this particular record relates to others. How far does FRBR go in relates to others? Does it include, for example, letting the patron know about a prequel, about a second series, other works _about_ this work, or does it only do editions, formats and stop there? Kevin -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:39 AM To: CODE4LIB@listserv.nd.edu Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] OpenFRBR I think you are better off designing for real cases than made up ones. But I think you can find a real one that meets all the criteria you want anyway---doesn't Harry Potter fit that description of your made up book? Lord of the Rings is another good one. What's the point of a made up one? The point of a real one, especially such a popular one as Harry Potter, is in part to convince people that this really does have practical implications, it really does matter for actual things that actual people are concerned with, not just for hypothetical cases intentionally made up to be as complicated as possible. We're still at the stage, sadly, where many people need to be convinced that there is in fact a problem that the FRBR model, or the types of displays you are talking about, can be part of the solution for. Jonathan Kevin Kierans wrote: I like the idea of playing with what the customer/patron will see. The display, that is. Harry Potter is good. But I'd like to suggest a made up creature: The Furbur Wars by Manifest Work It is part of two series : like the Thomas Covenant series That it has a The Hobbit type prequel, not quite in the series, but patrons should be told about it. It can be found bound individually, or included in the entire series. It has the large print, movie (DVD and VHS), talking book ( abridged and unabridged), how the movie was made photograph book Many books about the book (literary criticism) Let's try and make this as hard as possible. Once we decide what we should then show the patron/customer who might send a single isbn to OpenFRBR, then we can talk about the DB structure that might do things behind the scenes... What do you think? Kevin -- Jonathan Rochkind Sr. Programmer/Analyst The Sheridan Libraries Johns Hopkins University 410.516.8886 rochkind (at) jhu.edu -- Jonathan Rochkind Sr. Programmer/Analyst The Sheridan Libraries Johns Hopkins University 410.516.8886 rochkind (at) jhu.edu
Re: [CODE4LIB] OpenFRBR
Hi, You may be interested in OpenFRBR: http://www.openfrbr.org/ Its aim is to build a full, free implementation of FRBR, showing everything it can do, and looking for problems along the way. Everyone's welcome to get involved in whatever way they wish. I can't get to that site (is it down?), but a few words on what you're trying to do (is it a technical approach, model approach, philosophical approach?), and how you want to do it would be great. Alex -- Ultimately, all things are known because you want to believe you know. - Frank Herbert __ http://shelter.nu/ __
Re: [CODE4LIB] OpenFRBR
I'm having trouble getting to it too. I'd be interested to know how LibraryThing can help. As you know, we've got something FRBR-esque—user-driven not algorithmic. Tim On 11/1/06, Alexander Johannesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You may be interested in OpenFRBR: http://www.openfrbr.org/ Its aim is to build a full, free implementation of FRBR, showing everything it can do, and looking for problems along the way. Everyone's welcome to get involved in whatever way they wish. I can't get to that site (is it down?), but a few words on what you're trying to do (is it a technical approach, model approach, philosophical approach?), and how you want to do it would be great. Alex -- Ultimately, all things are known because you want to believe you know. - Frank Herbert __ http://shelter.nu/ __
Re: [CODE4LIB] OpenFRBR
On 11/1/06, Alexander Johannesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You may be interested in OpenFRBR: http://www.openfrbr.org/ Its aim is to build a full, free implementation of FRBR, showing everything it can do, and looking for problems along the way. Everyone's welcome to get involved in whatever way they wish. I can't get to that site (is it down?) Yes, my fault. I didn't communicate well enough with Bill so he announced on the day I brought down the server (which houses code4lib and other things) to move to a new location. The move was not without its problems, but openfrbr should be up again once the new IP spreads around the dns world. As for code4lib... also bad communication on my part... I didn't realize Ed(su) was out of the country. He owns the c4l.org domain so is the only one who can update its dns. Hopefully, he is checking email and can do this... if not we may have a bit of downtime. ksclarke-- Sorry again, Kevin (who obviously isn't a sys admin)
Re: [CODE4LIB] OpenFRBR
On 2 November 2006, Alexander Johannesen wrote: I can't get to that site (is it down?), but a few words on what you're trying to do (is it a technical approach, model approach, philosophical approach?), and how you want to do it would be great. It's back up now. Sorry about that. Some one-time server stuff was going on. OpenFRBR will be all of those, I think, because it'll be figuring out new things as it goes. There is no full FRBR implementation so there are more questions than answers. I don't know how the database will look, what Ajaxy stuff will help users manipulate information, how to let people do the four FRBR user tasks, how to handle complicated relationships between things, or any of that. It'll be fun to figure it out. On the site, I say what it might look like in a few months: A person grabs a book off the shelf and enters the ISBN into OpenFRBR. OpenFRBR checks all available sources and figures out what is known about the book, what work it is, what expression it is, what other entities are involved, and how they are related. The user will be able to confirm what is right, change what is wrong, and add what else is known. The resulting arrangement of information will be available in a standard format for other systems to use. Everything will be searchable. If it gets to that, I'll be happy. I'm new to Rails, so I'll be figuring out a lot as I go. I've never done anything with a shared source code repository, either. I do think FRBR is very useful and really needs an example, if not a reference, implementation, so that people can say, Oh, this is why we should bother with it. You know, I could use this for X, and for Y ... Bill -- William Denton : Toronto, Canada : www.miskatonic.org : www.frbr.org
