[computer-go] Black/White winning rates with random playout?

2009-01-08 Thread ibd
Hi, What's an usual winning rate for black/white from an empty 9x9 board, black playing first, 7.5 komi? I play 50k games when starting my program, and I usually get around 60% winning rate for white. This seems rather high to me, and I suspect a bug somewhere. Do you have any data I could

Re: [computer-go] Black/White winning rates with random playout?

2009-01-08 Thread Don Dailey
On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 19:27 +0100, i...@gmx.ch wrote: Hi, What's an usual winning rate for black/white from an empty 9x9 board, black playing first, 7.5 komi? I play 50k games when starting my program, and I usually get around 60% winning rate for white. This seems rather high to me, and

[computer-go] Re: Black/White winning rates with random playout?

2009-01-08 Thread Ingo Althöfer
ibd asked: what's an usual winning rate for black/white from an empty 9x9 board, black playing first, 7.5 komi? I play 50k games when starting my program, and I usually get around 60% winning rate for white. This seems rather high to me, and I suspect a bug somewhere. Do you have any data

Re: [computer-go] Black/White winning rates with random playout?

2009-01-08 Thread Nuno Milheiro
It seems normal to me, Blac is only one play ahead, which value is several points (probably 7,5 hence the komi value) given intelligent play, given random play the value of one more move may be only one point. You should try with more komi value to see which is the fair komi value for random play

Re: [computer-go] Black/White winning rates with random playout?

2009-01-08 Thread dhillismail
Sounds about right. Looking at my notes, I have 57% wins for white using similar playout?rules. - Dave Hillis -Original Message- From: Don Dailey dailey@gmail.com To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [computer-go] Black/White

[computer-go] Black/White winning rates with random playout?

2009-01-08 Thread Isaac Deutsch
I ran some tests with 500k games each and came to this result: with komi 0.5, white has 47.5 winn. perc. with komi 1.5, white has 50.7 winn. perc. with komi 2.5, white has 50.9 winn. perc. with komi 3.5, white has 54.0 winn. perc. with komi 4.5, white has 53.8 winn. perc. -- ? with komi

Re: [computer-go] Black/White winning rates with random playout?

2009-01-08 Thread Álvaro Begué
You won't get any playouts whose outcome is even, so 3.5 and 4.5 are effectively the same komi in this experiment (it would be different if seki were possible, but naive playouts don't result in seki). Your results seem very plausible to me. Álvaro. On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Isaac

Re: [computer-go] Black/White winning rates with random playout?

2009-01-08 Thread Rémi Coulom
Isaac Deutsch wrote: I ran some tests with 500k games each and came to this result: with komi 0.5, white has 47.5 winn. perc. with komi 1.5, white has 50.7 winn. perc. with komi 2.5, white has 50.9 winn. perc. with komi 3.5, white has 54.0 winn. perc. with komi 4.5, white has 53.8 winn. perc.

Re: [computer-go] Black/White winning rates with random playout?

2009-01-08 Thread Olivier Teytaud
I don't know the answer, but it's not too surprising - with random play the komi should be something like 2 or 3, so white with 7.5 komi has a pretty good advantage. This advantage disappears (or almost disappears) if the games are well played, but in your case they are not. I think

Re: [computer-go] Black/White winning rates with random playout?

2009-01-08 Thread Rémi Coulom
Nuno Milheiro wrote: Given random play, komi value does not change play, so we could see what is the mean score (no komi) instead of playing games at different komis. But in this case we should not see those 2 exceptions. Or else I'm wrong somewhere on my assumption. You are wrong two ways.

Re: [computer-go] Black/White winning rates with random playout?

2009-01-08 Thread dhillismail
You can't just look at the mean. If you take a histogram and look at the distribution of scores, you'll see a Gaussian-like bump in the middle, but also huge tails where only one color was left. You can calculate the histogram once and then use it to derive the win rate for different Komis.

Re: [computer-go] Black/White winning rates with random playout?

2009-01-08 Thread Don Dailey
On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 20:29 +0100, Olivier Teytaud wrote: I don't know the answer, but it's not too surprising - with random play the komi should be something like 2 or 3, so white with 7.5 komi has a pretty good advantage. This advantage