Petr Baudis wrote:
MoGo can indeed play out some rather spectacular ko fights;
unfortunately, I couldn't find any quickly, so here is at least an
example of a shorter one.
I see you made the following comment in that game record, which seems
relevant to recent discussions here.
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Christoph Birk wrote:
On Mar 5, 2008, at 11:58 AM, Don Dailey wrote:
Don Dailey wrote:
not assuming that MC plays the best move. The problem isn't the
assumptions I am making, but the assumptions others are making, that
it's NOT playing the best move.You want to apply a fix to all
You won't find that in computer vs computer games, because tricking the
strong programs requires some go skill and it only works if you wait long
enough before you solve the position. But if you search KGS (LeelaBot,
CrazyStone, CzechBot) for even games where the bot lost against a kyu
why doesn't someone simply try this and post the results,
if they think that it would help?
s.
On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Christoph Birk wrote:
On Mar 5, 2008, at 11:58 AM, Don Dailey wrote:
Don Dailey wrote:
not assuming that MC plays the
--- Jacques Basaldúa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Petr Baudis wrote:
You won't find that in computer vs computer games,
because tricking the
strong programs requires some go skill and it only
works if you wait long
enough before you solve the position. But if you
search KGS (LeelaBot,
steve uurtamo wrote:
yes, and the fact that turning a dumpling into a dead
group can take more than a few moves, since you may
have to fill up the eyespace several times, meaning
going fairly deeply down branches with several self-ataris
along the way.
Ok, it's pretty much as I
I think the general outline is that you pre-test groups first to see if
a self-atari move is interesting.It's worthy of additional
consideration if the stones it is touching have limited liberties and
the group you self-atari is relatively small.Then you could go on to
other tests
Thanks for an excellent description of the nakade
problem. I've found that it is easy for a 5kyu KGS
player - myself - to exploit such situations. I can't
escape observing that endgame moves where a bot
permits me to take a yose point here, another there,
all the while drawing closer to a
Your idea is more in the spirit of MC, I like it.
Another idea is borrowed from my first reasonable MC player. I looked
at the futures of interesting move points and discouraged self-atari
moves unless the future belonged to the player executing the move. (A
future is the expected percentage
Because the trick can only be played by similar strength players (much
weaker players can't build something like that, much stronger don't
need it)
it affects the rating of the bots. I guess CrazyStone could be near
KGS 1dan
with that solved. It is 2k now. But, of course, the solution may not
On Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 12:55:53PM +, Jacques Basaldúa wrote:
A 4-6 kyu human is behind by 10-15 points in the midgame (at that stage the
probability of winning is correlated with territory, so the MC bot is
building fine.) He creates a 12-16 point worth nakade trick in a corner
and does
You have to have a nakade pattern on the
board somewhere, the score has to be close and in your favor
considering the nakade, and the program has to believe that it is more
advantageous to give away stones that not.
eh, or it can't see the capture until it's only a few moves away,
On Thu, 6 Mar 2008, Don Dailey wrote:
One last time: Nobody suggested a one fix for all positions/problems.
The floating komi was suggested to guide the UCT search along
certain lines of play during specific (close!) endgame positions.
When I said all positions I meant all games.You expect
On Thu, 6 Mar 2008, Don Dailey wrote:
And can I assume the tree portion is also inhibited from seeing this due
to a combination of factors such as heuristics to delay exploring ugly
moves as well as the weakness of the play-outs in this regard (which
would cause the tree to not be inclined to
Don Dailey wrote:
Although it's easy to see that nakade is a problem, I agree with
someone who said it takes a lot of skill to produce this. In fact, I
believe that it cannot be done reliably by any player unless he is
already much stronger than the program, in which case he doesn't
need to
On Thu, 6 Mar 2008, Don Dailey wrote:
advantageous to give away stones that not. Despite what many people
believe, MC programs don't normally believe it's better to win small
and they are not hell-bent on giving away stones in order to try to make
the score come out to be exactly 0.5 win.
Don Dailey wrote:
I would be satisfied if someone implemented it, reported a 500 game
self-test sample and concluded that it didn't hurt the program
measurably and show a few examples of how it improved the moves
cosmetically, perhaps even comparing both version with specific
positions.
On 3/6/08, Christoph Birk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 6 Mar 2008, Don Dailey wrote:
advantageous to give away stones that not. Despite what many people
believe, MC programs don't normally believe it's better to win small
and they are not hell-bent on giving away stones in order to
On Thu, 6 Mar 2008, Weston Markham wrote:
You are right, but I think that you may also be misconstruing the
nakade problem as a lack of concern about margin, when it is really a
fundamental failure to understand (i.e., failure to explore
Sorry, you miss-understood.
The nakade problem is
To a first order approximation, would changing the komi change the
rankings? Presumably, programs are playing the same number of games
as black and white, so any unfair advantage or disadvantage black
has would balance out.
Komi only matters when there is only one game between a pair of
What komi would do is push the ratings closer together, but it wouldn't
change the ranks of the players.
- Don
Dave Dyer wrote:
To a first order approximation, would changing the komi change the
rankings? Presumably, programs are playing the same number of games
as black and white, so
On Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 04:33:16PM -0800, Dave Dyer wrote:
To a first order approximation, would changing the komi change the
rankings? Presumably, programs are playing the same number of games
as black and white, so any unfair advantage or disadvantage black
has would balance out.
Komi
Often, when I study sprawling groups in the middle
game, I have found that gnugo --decide-dragon-status
will fail with an uncertain result, but if I increase
the owl-node-limits and semeai-node-limits to 10k,
gnugo finds a resolution to the problem in a matter of
seconds. I sall run gnugo's
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