Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo rollout nakade patterns?

2017-01-23 Thread Robert Jasiek 

On 23.01.2017 19:00, terry mcintyre via Computer-go wrote:

nakade involves creating a shape (such as three in a row or a bulky five)
such that, if captured, it would only form one eye, given the proper placement.


Nakade has been defined (e.g., several times by me) reasonably well, but 
for computer purposes some sort of simplifying (implicit) definition is 
often necessary according to a study purpose.


(Your attempt is too naive, worse than ca. 68 years ago. See my texts 
for progress or else be naive with determination, i.e., keep things 
simple strictly without any "such that", "would", "eye", "proper", 
"involves".)


--
robert jasiek
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Re: [Computer-go] Yoon Young Sun (9p) on codecentric game

2017-01-23 Thread David Ongaro 
Lukas didn’t play DeepZen, just “Zen” (or Zen19X on KGS to be specific, also 
see https://blog.codecentric.de/en/2016/08/codecentric-go-challenge-2016/ 
). As 
the organizer of the event you’re ought to know that?


> On Jan 18, 2017, at 4:54 AM, Ingo Althöfer <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
> Hello in the round,
> 
> Yoon Young Sun (9p; living in Hamburg) has commented 
> round 3 of the codecentric Challenge 2016 (between
> DeepZen (Black) and Lukas Kraemer (White)) in
> Germany's Go magazine (DGoZ, issue 06/2016, pp.42-45).
> 
> At the end sYoon makes some general comments on DeepZen
> (translated to English by me):
>> Zen is playing already very strong and is making 
>> reasonable moves. In my impression it plays more
>> human-like than AlphaGo who's moves partly need 
>> very much of getting used to.
>> In principle, in the whole game only move 89 [by Zen]
>> was really strange. All other of its moves I like.
>> 
>> Black has been leading already in the opening,
>> in particular by help of the exchange 28 for 29.
>> After the anxious move 58, 59 cemented the lead.
>> After this, White could only try to reach a narrow
>> outcome; a win [for White] was no longer possible.
> 
> For your memories: DeepZen had been winning the 2016
> codecentric Challenge by 3-1.
> 
> Ingo.

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Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo rollout nakade patterns?

2017-01-23 Thread Brian Sheppard via Computer-go 

A capturing move has a potential nakade if the string that was removed is among 
a limited set of possibilities. Probably Alpha Go has a 13-point bounding 
region (e.g., the 13-point star) that it uses as a positional index, and 
therefore a 8192-sized pattern set will identify all potential nakade.

It is also easy and inexpensive to identify nakade by if/the/else rules. Very 
few moves in a Go game are captures, and only captures of up to 9 stones can be 
nakade. The captured stones must also fit in a 3x3 bounding box, so code can 
rapidly eliminate non-nakade situations.

The point is that using much less than 1% of your CPU time, you can identify 
potential nakade moves. And since you reach this stage very rarely, you can 
invest a lot of time trying to do precise analysis. In Pebbles, I concluded 
that it was worthwhile to also test that the surrounding strings likely did not 
have another potential eye. That is a pretty expensive calculation, but the 
code path was executed only when it was critical to success.

Nakade are enormously valuable because they are cheap to calculate and a 
playout would otherwise have close to 0% chance of following the right path.
 
-Original Message-
From: terry mcintyre via Computer-go 
To: computer-go 
Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2017 1:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo rollout nakade patterns?


I speculate: nakade involves creating a shape (such as three in a row or a 
bulky five) such that, if captured, it would only form one eye, given the 
proper placement. I can imagine a set of patterns which enumerate the 
possibilities. Some examples exist, however, which are quite complex. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad


On Monday, January 23, 2017, 11:45 AM, Roel van Engelen  
wrote:

I am trying to re-create the fast rollout policy as described by deepMind but 
got stuck on the nakade patterns:
"Nakade, # of patterns 8192: Move matches a nakade pattern at captured stone"

the "at captured stone" confuses me, my first thought is: "this is only 
computed if stones have been captured recently" but 
i don't think that is correct. how should i read it?


since they say "# of patterns 8192" i imagine they found some way to hash them 
just like the 3x3 and 12point diamond shapes but so far
i have not found a way to do so. I found that other engines use heuristics to 
find nakade patterns so my question is does AlphaGo use patterns and does 
somebody know how this works?


Thanks!
Roel

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Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo rollout nakade patterns?

2017-01-23 Thread terry mcintyre via Computer-go 
 blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px 
#715FFA solid !important; padding-left:1ex !important; background-color:white 
!important; } I speculate: nakade involves creating a shape (such as three in a 
row or a bulky five) such that, if captured, it would only form one eye, given 
the proper placement. I can imagine a set of patterns which enumerate the 
possibilities. Some examples exist, however, which are quite complex. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad


On Monday, January 23, 2017, 11:45 AM, Roel van Engelen  
wrote:

I am trying to re-create the fast rollout policy as described by deepMind but 
got stuck on the nakade patterns:
"Nakade, # of patterns 8192: Move matches a nakade pattern at captured stone"

the "at captured stone" confuses me, my first thought is: "this is only 
computed if stones have been captured recently" but i don't think that is 
correct. how should i read it?
since they say "# of patterns 8192" i imagine they found some way to hash them 
just like the 3x3 and 12point diamond shapes but so fari have not found a way 
to do so. I found that other engines use heuristics to find nakade patterns so 
my question is does AlphaGo use patterns and does somebody know how this works?
Thanks!
Roel___
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[Computer-go] AlphaGo rollout nakade patterns?

2017-01-23 Thread Roel van Engelen 
I am trying to re-create the fast rollout policy as described by deepMind
but got stuck on the nakade patterns:
"Nakade, # of patterns 8192: Move matches a nakade pattern at captured
stone"

the "at captured stone" confuses me, my first thought is: "this is only
computed if stones have been captured recently" but
i don't think that is correct. how should i read it?

since they say "# of patterns 8192" i imagine they found some way to hash
them just like the 3x3 and 12point diamond shapes but so far
i have not found a way to do so. I found that other engines use heuristics
to find nakade patterns so my question is does AlphaGo use patterns and
does somebody know how this works?

Thanks!
Roel
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Re: [Computer-go] [Wvgc-go] ADMIN: Lists Have Moved

2017-01-23 Thread computer-go 

Hi,
Thanks for your patience.
Everything should be the same, the archives,
addresses you send new posts to, the location of
listonfo and archives, and memberships and the 
passwords you were given when you subscribed.

The IP has changed, and it is running as
a virtual host.  These will affect the headers
of the emails and subscriber clients may handle
things in a different way.  E.G. much of this
thread ended up in the spam folder of one of
m subscribed accounts.
It will take a few days (probably)
to suss it all out.  Hopefully it can all
be done at the server.
Transit times are different.  It was
on the east coast USA, now on the west coast
in San Francisco.
I'll post on progress or lack thereof
as things settle in.

Thanks again,
Michael

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Re: [Computer-go] ADMIN: Lists Have Moved

2017-01-23 Thread Joshua Shriver 
Is there a specific site to go to to sign up on the new list or was
everything migrated transparently?

-Josh

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Xavier Combelle
 wrote:
> Strangely enougth I received all the said messages
>
>
> Le 23/01/2017 à 06:20, "Ingo Althöfer" a écrit :
>> ... and also not my own one from 2 minutes ago.
>> I can only look it up in the archives.
>>
>> Strange.
>>
>> Ingo.
>>
>>
>>> Gesendet: Montag, 23. Januar 2017 um 02:37 Uhr
>>> Von: computer...@roveg.org
>>> An: computer-go@computer-go.org, wvgc...@computer-go.org
>>> Betreff: [Computer-go] ADMIN:  Lists Have Moved
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>  The lists are running in a new place. The
>>> archives and membership options should all be
>>> the same.  If you have any problems, please let me
>>> know.
>>>  Thanks!
>>>  Michael
>>>
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Re: [Computer-go] ADMIN: Lists Have Moved

2017-01-23 Thread Ingo Althöfer 
Hello,

in the meantime I also received all the mails,
but each one with about 17 minutes delay.

My email provider is
gmx.de (or gmx.net)

Ingo.

> Gesendet: Montag, 23. Januar 2017 um 07:50 Uhr
> Von: "Xavier Combelle" 
> An: computer-go@computer-go.org
> Betreff: Re: [Computer-go] ADMIN: Lists Have Moved
>
> Strangely enougth I received all the said messages
> 
> 
> Le 23/01/2017 à 06:20, "Ingo Althöfer" a écrit :
> > ... and also not my own one from 2 minutes ago.
> > I can only look it up in the archives.
> >
> > Strange.
> >
> > Ingo.
> >
> >
> >> Gesendet: Montag, 23. Januar 2017 um 02:37 Uhr
> >> Von: computer...@roveg.org
> >> An: computer-go@computer-go.org, wvgc...@computer-go.org
> >> Betreff: [Computer-go] ADMIN:  Lists Have Moved
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>The lists are running in a new place. The
> >> archives and membership options should all be
> >> the same.  If you have any problems, please let me
> >> know.
> >>Thanks!
> >>Michael
> >>
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