Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Boon Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:11 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? As suggested by David Fotland I made a simple referee type of setup so that I can have two engines play each other continuously. I got it working with GnuGo but with MoGo I get an Access denied message when I try to start it from the referee program. When starting from the command-line I have no trouble. OK, never mind the question above. Although the strange message was caused by a mistake of mine, the real reason MoGo didn't seem to be working was that it puts out a lot of data on stderr. And somehow this blocks the stdin stream until I actively read the error stream. Adding a thread to read the error stream when there's data available fixed the problem. MoGo appear very slow, but I can run it overnight. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I tried to send you a zip file, but the email failed, then it said it would be delivered. Let me know if you don't get it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Boon Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:11 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? As suggested by David Fotland I made a simple referee type of setup so that I can have two engines play each other continuously. I got it working with GnuGo but with MoGo I get an Access denied message when I try to start it from the referee program. When starting from the command-line I have no trouble. Since I expect the games against MoGo to be much longer and thereby uncover more bugs I figured it would be a better test-opponent. Is anyone familiar with this error? In case it's relevant, I'm running it under Windows XP on a Mac using VMWare. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I see now what people mean with regards to the starting of rounds. Most bots are idle most of the time while a few slow ones slug it out. The way it's currently configured was probably the simplest way to do it and get reasonably uniform results. Otherwise you may end up with fast bots playing lots of games against each other and skew their ratings. Still, maybe it could be done so that when there are only one or two games going still that are far from finished (say less than 150-200 moves played) then a new round gets started. The bots in the slow game (s) skip a round. This way you would still get reasonable pairings and have more bots active all the time. Just a suggestion of course, I'm sure some thought has been given on the issue already. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I also put up Odie on the 19x19 server so that we would have some weaker players.Odie should be quite weak and I can also put up even weaker versions. - Don David Fotland wrote: I tested the three versions only against each other, and tuned them by removing go knowledge. I didn’t spend much time on it so I didn’t have time to tune against gnugo. I thought that tuning on the server would be better. Since programs do better against themselves, the actual strength difference is probably less than 5 stones. Level 0 should be really stupid. It can’t read ladders, and the move generator only uses patterns that are 3x3. I tested with 100 games, and level 2 gives 5 stones to level 1 and wins 45%. Level 1 gives five stones to level 0 and wins 53% David *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *terry mcintyre *Sent:* Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:39 AM *To:* computer-go *Subject:* Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Thanks, David! I think you said that your three versions of Many Faces 12 are about 5 stones apart in strength? I'm guessing this means that version A can give B a 5 stone handicap, and win 50% of the time, while version B can give C a 5 stone handicap and win 50% of the games? Have you played the 3 versions against Gnugo? What handicaps seem appropriate there? I think Don Dailey posted that there is a need for a GnuGo on the 19x19 server? I can host if need be, have spare CPU here and full-time connection. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] “Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.” Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] - Original Message From: David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 3:00:44 PM Subject: RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? You can test your bot on the 19x19 cgos now, since I added 3 weak players today. They are so fast they don’t load my machine, so I’ll leave them up. David Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
The new level of participation is terrific. It's great to see Goliath, the strongest program for many years. I love the new 15 minute time limits. Thank you everyone. I'd like to remind people to follow the link to Sensei's computer go page and add a brief description of your program when you have time. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:03 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? I also put up Odie on the 19x19 server so that we would have some weaker players.Odie should be quite weak and I can also put up even weaker versions. - Don David Fotland wrote: I tested the three versions only against each other, and tuned them by removing go knowledge. I didn�t spend much time on it so I didn�t have time to tune against gnugo. I thought that tuning on the server would be better. Since programs do better against themselves, the actual strength difference is probably less than 5 stones. Level 0 should be really stupid. It can�t read ladders, and the move generator only uses patterns that are 3x3. I tested with 100 games, and level 2 gives 5 stones to level 1 and wins 45%. Level 1 gives five stones to level 0 and wins 53% David *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *terry mcintyre *Sent:* Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:39 AM *To:* computer-go *Subject:* Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Thanks, David! I think you said that your three versions of Many Faces 12 are about 5 stones apart in strength? I'm guessing this means that version A can give B a 5 stone handicap, and win 50% of the time, while version B can give C a 5 stone handicap and win 50% of the games? Have you played the 3 versions against Gnugo? What handicaps seem appropriate there? I think Don Dailey posted that there is a need for a GnuGo on the 19x19 server? I can host if need be, have spare CPU here and full- time connection. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] �Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.� Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] - Original Message From: David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 3:00:44 PM Subject: RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? You can test your bot on the 19x19 cgos now, since I added 3 weak players today. They are so fast they don�t load my machine, so I�ll leave them up. David - --- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs - --- ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I came back to my computer to see an error message about a broken pipe. I also see my program lost a game on time to Odie, which is probably caused by this. Is this common? Or does it mean I have a problem on my end? I do have a rather slow internet connection. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Don Dailey wrote: My suggest to Olivier is to compromise and set time control 20 minutes per side and give 1 second gift. That's good for me. Until now, I have been running tests and gnugo clones just to support the server, but I will start serious work soon. I have some time for computer go at last! I cannot use the 9x9 server, because my approach is very knowledge oriented. Jacques. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Just for the record, For 19x19 I like a time setting of 5 to 10 minutes (max) per side. My main two reasons: 1) It takes to long to establish a good rating estimate. 2) For the near future I can only run on a single cpu machine at night. During the day my wife is using this computer, and it is much to slow let the program run at the same time. Then when I want to stop the game gracefully, it takes too long (for me) to wait for the game to stop with long time controls (this was up to one hour). That is why I was not competing on 19x19 cgos... Cheers, Edward _ De mooiste afbeeldingen van Angelina Jolie vind je met Live Search http://search.live.com/images/results.aspx?q=angelina%20jolieFORM=MIINTM___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Thanks, David!
I think you said that your three versions of Many Faces 12 are about 5 stones
apart in strength?
I'm guessing this means that version A can give B a 5 stone handicap, and win
50% of the time,
while version B can give C a 5 stone handicap and win 50% of the games?
Have you played the 3 versions against Gnugo? What handicaps seem appropriate
there?
I think Don Dailey posted that there is a need for a GnuGo on the 19x19 server?
I can host if need be, have spare CPU here and full-time connection.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit
obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.”
Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874]
- Original Message
From: David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 3:00:44 PM
Subject: RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
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You can test your bot on the 19x19 cgos now, since I added 3
weak players today. They are so fast they don’t load my machine, so I’ll leave
them up.
David
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I like 15 minutes on 19x19. The scalable programs can test at any time limit, so they should prefer shorter times, to get ratings sooner. But we also want to test against the strong traditional programs, and in particular, gnugo level 10 is the anchor. Gnugo level 10 needs up to 10 minutes, and is not scalable. So the time limit should be high enough to allow gnugo to play at full strength. 15 minutes gives a comfortable margin. David From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward de Grijs Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 6:07 AM To: computer-go Subject: RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Just for the record, For 19x19 I like a time setting of 5 to 10 minutes (max) per side. My main two reasons: 1) It takes to long to establish a good rating estimate. 2) For the near future I can only run on a single cpu machine at night. During the day my wife is using this computer, and it is much to slow let the program run at the same time. Then when I want to stop the game gracefully, it takes too long (for me) to wait for the game to stop with long time controls (this was up to one hour). That is why I was not competing on 19x19 cgos... Cheers, Edward _ Plan je evenement, nodig mensen uit en deel je foto's met Windows Live Events http://events.live.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I tested the three versions only against each other, and tuned them by removing go knowledge. I didn't spend much time on it so I didn't have time to tune against gnugo. I thought that tuning on the server would be better. Since programs do better against themselves, the actual strength difference is probably less than 5 stones. Level 0 should be really stupid. It can't read ladders, and the move generator only uses patterns that are 3x3. I tested with 100 games, and level 2 gives 5 stones to level 1 and wins 45%. Level 1 gives five stones to level 0 and wins 53% David From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of terry mcintyre Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:39 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Thanks, David! I think you said that your three versions of Many Faces 12 are about 5 stones apart in strength? I'm guessing this means that version A can give B a 5 stone handicap, and win 50% of the time, while version B can give C a 5 stone handicap and win 50% of the games? Have you played the 3 versions against Gnugo? What handicaps seem appropriate there? I think Don Dailey posted that there is a need for a GnuGo on the 19x19 server? I can host if need be, have spare CPU here and full-time connection. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery. Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] - Original Message From: David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 3:00:44 PM Subject: RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? You can test your bot on the 19x19 cgos now, since I added 3 weak players today. They are so fast they don't load my machine, so I'll leave them up. David _ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs your homepage. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
What's the point of getting a stable ranking which is more or less meaningless? If someone want to?debug or test their programs, they could easily use the publicaly available version of MoGo or GnuGo. The purpose of the 19x19 CGOS is to compare strength between serious programs in a meaningful way. By meaningful, I refer to the human play.? DL -Original Message- From: David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'computer-go' computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 2:23 pm Subject: RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? I expect the faster time control will make my program look worse. It will certainly do worse vs Gnugo with less time. I expect it will also do worse against crazystone, since the crazystone version currently running is much faster than the time control, so it won't change strength at all. The problem with the current time limits is that it takes forever to get a stable rank, so people don't leave their programs on long enough. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:08 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Hi David, Putting some weaker programs on CGOS is a good idea - I would like to see it seeded with players of many different strengths. Olivier is in charge of cgos 19x19 so whatever time he wants to set is up to him.I would suggest to him to set a 1 second time gift if he chooses to play at a faster rate since network will be a real issue with any who have a lousy connection. If the time control is cut in half, it will probably change the relative strengths of the programs, because some programs will not be crippled by the time change and other will. Here is what I would predict: 1. Gnugo would increase in ranking. 2. Your program will increase in rank - but not as much as GnuGo. 3. Crazy Stone will drop in rank. 4. Every program will drop in ELO except GnuGo or other non- scalable programs. I'm assuming that your program is scalable, that Crazy Stone is more scalable and GnuGo is not scalable (in other words it would run just the same as it does now.) So if we decrease the time control, it will make you look better and you may get lazy about improving your program. However, it might make GnuGo competitive with your program.I'm of course making certain scalability assumptions that might not be true. My suggest to Olivier is to compromise and set time control 20 minutes per side and give 1 second gift. - Don David Fotland wrote: I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 CGOS: 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, and CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so strong, it is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker programs. 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get enough games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use 10 or 15 minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any confidence that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run complete in under a day. I propose the following changes: I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is competition at lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few seconds for a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the weaker programs. I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 minutes per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a reasonable time limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale with additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be similar at 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. -David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I have a Java version of the old Goliath 3. I have a GTP bridge also. If it's not a lot of work I'd consider putting it on 19x19 CGOS. How would I go about doing that? (I have a Mac but could possibly arrange a PC.) At the moment the Java translation has an annoying bug that I haven't bothered to find yet. It causes it to overlook some atari's and ladders occasionally. Maybe if I get some games played it will be easier for me to locate this bug. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
- Original Message What's the point of getting a stable ranking which is more or less meaningless? If someone want to debug or test their programs, they could easily use the publicaly available version of MoGo or GnuGo. The purpose of the 19x19 CGOS is to compare strength between serious programs in a meaningful way. By meaningful, I refer to the human play. I suspect that developers do use those publicly available versions for testing, but the 19x19 server allows several things: -- testing against a broader range of programs -- publicly accountable results -- game records Tuning against just one or two programs can lead to brittle programs. Sluggo reports that it did very well against GnuGo, for instance, but not nearly so well against many other programs, due to the evil twin effect -- Sluggo knew exactly what GnuGo would probably do in a given situation, so could find moves which GnuGo was blind to. It was effectively tuned to exploit weaknesses in GnuGo's engine, which can lead to improper play which can be exploited by others. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
To get many faces 11 up, I had to change it so it would remove all dead stones before passing. I wrote a gtp wrapper for its engine to communicate with the cgos client. I can give you the source for the wrapper if you like (in C++). I have a windows tcl client that works that I got from Don a while ago. Recently while traveling I tried to download a new one but I couldn't make it work. If you want I can send you me working cgos client that runs in a DOS window and the .bat file to start it. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Boon Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:52 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? I have a Java version of the old Goliath 3. I have a GTP bridge also. If it's not a lot of work I'd consider putting it on 19x19 CGOS. How would I go about doing that? (I have a Mac but could possibly arrange a PC.) At the moment the Java translation has an annoying bug that I haven't bothered to find yet. It causes it to overlook some atari's and ladders occasionally. Maybe if I get some games played it will be easier for me to locate this bug. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Mark Boon wrote: I have a Java version of the old Goliath 3. I have a GTP bridge also. If it's not a lot of work I'd consider putting it on 19x19 CGOS. How would I go about doing that? (I have a Mac but could possibly arrange a PC.) At the moment the Java translation has an annoying bug that I haven't bothered to find yet. It causes it to overlook some atari's and ladders occasionally. Maybe if I get some games played it will be easier for me to locate this bug. On macs, you need to get a tclkit runtime or else install a recent version of tcl on your machine. The runtime is very simple to install and gives you the ability to run the visual client too which is universal. You will also need to ensure that your bot knows the CGOS rules - chinese scoring, 2 passes ends the game and all stones are considered alive.If your opponent has dead stones your program must clean up and play it out before passing or you will lose games needlessly.Pay attention to positional superko and suicide is not allowed. Once you have the run-time you can get the generic cgos3.tcl client which attaches to the server as well as to your engine. I will be happy to help you along the way. I would start here, by getting the appropriate tclkit for your platform: http://www.equi4.com/pub/tk/downloads.html Then go to http://cgos.boardspace.net/index.html and get the neccessary clients. You must also be sure and read the instructions for connecting to 19x19 server. - Don Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
The cgos3-darwin.zip client on the web site will attach you to the 9x9 server - unless you actually modify it by unwrapping it, changing it, then wrapping it back up. If you want, I will wrap up a version that will work for 19x19. I really should take some time to make this more usable (configurable) ... - Don Don Dailey wrote: Mark Boon wrote: I have a Java version of the old Goliath 3. I have a GTP bridge also. If it's not a lot of work I'd consider putting it on 19x19 CGOS. How would I go about doing that? (I have a Mac but could possibly arrange a PC.) At the moment the Java translation has an annoying bug that I haven't bothered to find yet. It causes it to overlook some atari's and ladders occasionally. Maybe if I get some games played it will be easier for me to locate this bug. On macs, you need to get a tclkit runtime or else install a recent version of tcl on your machine. The runtime is very simple to install and gives you the ability to run the visual client too which is universal. You will also need to ensure that your bot knows the CGOS rules - chinese scoring, 2 passes ends the game and all stones are considered alive.If your opponent has dead stones your program must clean up and play it out before passing or you will lose games needlessly.Pay attention to positional superko and suicide is not allowed. Once you have the run-time you can get the generic cgos3.tcl client which attaches to the server as well as to your engine. I will be happy to help you along the way. I would start here, by getting the appropriate tclkit for your platform: http://www.equi4.com/pub/tk/downloads.html Then go to http://cgos.boardspace.net/index.html and get the neccessary clients. You must also be sure and read the instructions for connecting to 19x19 server. - Don Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I also run from Macs, and have no problem connecting to CGOS. Cheers, David On 9, Jan 2008, at 8:51 AM, Mark Boon wrote: I have a Java version of the old Goliath 3. I have a GTP bridge also. If it's not a lot of work I'd consider putting it on 19x19 CGOS. How would I go about doing that? (I have a Mac but could possibly arrange a PC.) ...Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Thanks David. But I already have a GTP wrapper in Java that communicates through stdin and stdout so I suppose that's the same thing? I had hoped there was the equivalent of kgsGTP. Also my program doesn't remove all dead stones but I don't think that's very difficult to change. I'll look at it one of these days. Mark On 9-jan-08, at 15:32, David Fotland wrote: To get many faces 11 up, I had to change it so it would remove all dead stones before passing. I wrote a gtp wrapper for its engine to communicate with the cgos client. I can give you the source for the wrapper if you like (in C++). I have a windows tcl client that works that I got from Don a while ago. Recently while traveling I tried to download a new one but I couldn't make it work. If you want I can send you me working cgos client that runs in a DOS window and the .bat file to start it. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Boon Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:52 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? I have a Java version of the old Goliath 3. I have a GTP bridge also. If it's not a lot of work I'd consider putting it on 19x19 CGOS. How would I go about doing that? (I have a Mac but could possibly arrange a PC.) At the moment the Java translation has an annoying bug that I haven't bothered to find yet. It causes it to overlook some atari's and ladders occasionally. Maybe if I get some games played it will be easier for me to locate this bug. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
cgos3.tcl is the equivalent of kgsGTP. cgos3.tcl communicates through stdin and stdout.The Java wrapper will not benefit you unless it actually provided GTP to a program that doesn't know gtp. - Don Mark Boon wrote: Thanks David. But I already have a GTP wrapper in Java that communicates through stdin and stdout so I suppose that's the same thing? I had hoped there was the equivalent of kgsGTP. Also my program doesn't remove all dead stones but I don't think that's very difficult to change. I'll look at it one of these days. Mark On 9-jan-08, at 15:32, David Fotland wrote: To get many faces 11 up, I had to change it so it would remove all dead stones before passing. I wrote a gtp wrapper for its engine to communicate with the cgos client. I can give you the source for the wrapper if you like (in C++). I have a windows tcl client that works that I got from Don a while ago. Recently while traveling I tried to download a new one but I couldn't make it work. If you want I can send you me working cgos client that runs in a DOS window and the .bat file to start it. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Boon Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:52 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? I have a Java version of the old Goliath 3. I have a GTP bridge also. If it's not a lot of work I'd consider putting it on 19x19 CGOS. How would I go about doing that? (I have a Mac but could possibly arrange a PC.) At the moment the Java translation has an annoying bug that I haven't bothered to find yet. It causes it to overlook some atari's and ladders occasionally. Maybe if I get some games played it will be easier for me to locate this bug. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
On 9-jan-08, at 16:11, Don Dailey wrote: cgos3.tcl is the equivalent of kgsGTP. cgos3.tcl communicates through stdin and stdout.The Java wrapper will not benefit you unless it actually provided GTP to a program that doesn't know gtp. - Don I hope we're having a bit of miscommunication. Maybe I'm not using the right terminology. I have implemented GTP in Java using stdin and stdout (can also use a socket) and can use this implementation as a wrapper around my go- engine. I think this works with kgsGTP although it's been a while since I tried that. If your cgos3.tcl is the equivalent to kgsGTP then I suppose hardly any more work is required. I'll be downloading the tcl runtime shortly and I'll be back with questions if I get stuck. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Hi Mark, Yes, I misunderstood. You should have little trouble then - cgos3.tcl is the cgos equivalent of kgsGtp. - Don Mark Boon wrote: On 9-jan-08, at 16:11, Don Dailey wrote: cgos3.tcl is the equivalent of kgsGTP. cgos3.tcl communicates through stdin and stdout.The Java wrapper will not benefit you unless it actually provided GTP to a program that doesn't know gtp. - Don I hope we're having a bit of miscommunication. Maybe I'm not using the right terminology. I have implemented GTP in Java using stdin and stdout (can also use a socket) and can use this implementation as a wrapper around my go-engine. I think this works with kgsGTP although it's been a while since I tried that. If your cgos3.tcl is the equivalent to kgsGTP then I suppose hardly any more work is required. I'll be downloading the tcl runtime shortly and I'll be back with questions if I get stuck. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
On 9-jan-08, at 15:45, Don Dailey wrote: The cgos3-darwin.zip client on the web site will attach you to the 9x9 server - unless you actually modify it by unwrapping it, changing it, then wrapping it back up. If you want, I will wrap up a version that will work for 19x19. OK, I think I'm at the point where it should work. I had forgotten about the above so it played on 9x9 I believe. No idea what happened. I have the cgos3-darwin application but I have no idea how to wrap or unwrap that. What do I need to do? Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Mark Boon wrote: On 9-jan-08, at 15:45, Don Dailey wrote: The cgos3-darwin.zip client on the web site will attach you to the 9x9 server - unless you actually modify it by unwrapping it, changing it, then wrapping it back up. If you want, I will wrap up a version that will work for 19x19. OK, I think I'm at the point where it should work. I had forgotten about the above so it played on 9x9 I believe. No idea what happened. I have the cgos3-darwin application but I have no idea how to wrap or unwrap that. What do I need to do? You can do one of 2 things: 1. Just use the cgos3.tcl application - it's generic and runs on all platforms - but you will need to modify 2 lines near the top of this script - the server and the port and change them accordingly. This is a tcl script and will run with the darwin tclkit run-time. 2. If you want to compile a version for your platform, it's more complicated.I would not do this but if you really insist I think instructions were provided and posted somewhere. Briefly, you should look for the tclkit site and read about sdx.kit, tclkit and the -runtime option to sdx. - Don Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
OK, got it working. But it didn't remove all the dead stones unfortunately. Is there any way to get the SGF file of the game so I can test why it didn't do that? Or do I need to save it locally? Mark On 9-jan-08, at 19:51, Don Dailey wrote: Mark Boon wrote: On 9-jan-08, at 15:45, Don Dailey wrote: The cgos3-darwin.zip client on the web site will attach you to the 9x9 server - unless you actually modify it by unwrapping it, changing it, then wrapping it back up. If you want, I will wrap up a version that will work for 19x19. OK, I think I'm at the point where it should work. I had forgotten about the above so it played on 9x9 I believe. No idea what happened. I have the cgos3-darwin application but I have no idea how to wrap or unwrap that. What do I need to do? You can do one of 2 things: 1. Just use the cgos3.tcl application - it's generic and runs on all platforms - but you will need to modify 2 lines near the top of this script - the server and the port and change them accordingly. This is a tcl script and will run with the darwin tclkit run-time. 2. If you want to compile a version for your platform, it's more complicated.I would not do this but if you really insist I think instructions were provided and posted somewhere. Briefly, you should look for the tclkit site and read about sdx.kit, tclkit and the -runtime option to sdx. - Don Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 CGOS: 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, and CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so strong, it is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker programs. 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get enough games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use 10 or 15 minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any confidence that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run complete in under a day. I propose the following changes: I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is competition at lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few seconds for a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the weaker programs. I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 minutes per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a reasonable time limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale with additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be similar at 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. -David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
The only reason that SlugGo is not on 19x19 CGOS is that we are working towards a version that does something different than the version that was running a year ago. When we have the new features running we will begin playing there. It is my opinion that 30 minutes per side is common for human tournament games, and thus makes sense for 19x19 CGOS. I think 10 minutes is rather restrictive, so maybe 20 minutes makes sense. Cheers, David On 8, Jan 2008, at 11:24 AM, David Fotland wrote: I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 CGOS: 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, and CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so strong, it is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker programs. 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get enough games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use 10 or 15 minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any confidence that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run complete in under a day. I propose the following changes: I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is competition at lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few seconds for a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the weaker programs. I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 minutes per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a reasonable time limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale with additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be similar at 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. -David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I haven't been using CGOS at all lately (planned gap in development around the holidays). When I do start up again, it'll probably be on the 9x9 server. I'd do this because of the following reasons: * Games finish faster on the 9x9 server * Current testing/tuning is done on 9x9 (I have a short attention span while playing a weak bot) * Strength differences are tougher to overcome on large boards To overcome this, a handicap system or a denser field would be required * Replaying a game while debugging is shorter on 9x9 * There are more opponents on the 9x9 server * Picking only one server to run on is easier than doing both (affects setup, baby sitting, and hardware consumed) I think that many of those reasons are more relevant for weaker bots. I suspect that the 19x19 server will be less popular with weaker bots for those reasons. I could put up a non-searching bot that does ok on 19x19, but I'm currently hesitant to do that. In the past, I've put up bots on 9x9, but they required baby sitting because the connection to the server was not maintained. After many restarts, I eventually got lazy and nobody complained... On Jan 8, 2008 2:24 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 CGOS: 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, and CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so strong, it is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker programs. 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get enough games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use 10 or 15 minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any confidence that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run complete in under a day. I propose the following changes: I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is competition at lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few seconds for a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the weaker programs. I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 minutes per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a reasonable time limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale with additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be similar at 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. -David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I forgot to mention, that I do eventually play to have multi-time control on the servers. One time control will be very slow and the other will be very fast.You would be able to get several games in during the same period of time of 1 long game. For 9x9 it might be something like this: 1. 15-20 minutes per side main time control. 2. 2-5 minutes per side fast time control. A bot could choose to play only fast games or only slow games, otherwise, a bot would play fast games when it's slow games are over.Each slow round would begin only when slow players were all available for scheduling. Unless there are a number of players playing, this is not that practical. However, we could probably seed the server with several low/medium strength programs that play fast. On 19x19 it might be 30 minutes per side like we have now, with 5 minute games for the fast time control.We would probably have to work it out so that program like gnugo would be able to handle the fast time control at their standard settings. I also am thinking about building a really fast and weak playing bot. Something that is similar to the rule based program someone suggested to you, but with a few simple 3x3 patterns to supplement it.Do you remember what we called that program? It played by simple rules such as attacking the group with the least liberties, etc.We names it somewhat after the person who suggested the idea. - Don David Fotland wrote: I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 CGOS: 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, and CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so strong, it is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker programs. 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get enough games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use 10 or 15 minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any confidence that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run complete in under a day. I propose the following changes: I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is competition at lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few seconds for a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the weaker programs. I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 minutes per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a reasonable time limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale with additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be similar at 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. -David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Hi David, Putting some weaker programs on CGOS is a good idea - I would like to see it seeded with players of many different strengths. Olivier is in charge of cgos 19x19 so whatever time he wants to set is up to him.I would suggest to him to set a 1 second time gift if he chooses to play at a faster rate since network will be a real issue with any who have a lousy connection. If the time control is cut in half, it will probably change the relative strengths of the programs, because some programs will not be crippled by the time change and other will. Here is what I would predict: 1. Gnugo would increase in ranking. 2. Your program will increase in rank - but not as much as GnuGo. 3. Crazy Stone will drop in rank. 4. Every program will drop in ELO except GnuGo or other non-scalable programs. I'm assuming that your program is scalable, that Crazy Stone is more scalable and GnuGo is not scalable (in other words it would run just the same as it does now.) So if we decrease the time control, it will make you look better and you may get lazy about improving your program. However, it might make GnuGo competitive with your program.I'm of course making certain scalability assumptions that might not be true. My suggest to Olivier is to compromise and set time control 20 minutes per side and give 1 second gift. - Don David Fotland wrote: I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 CGOS: 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, and CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so strong, it is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker programs. 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get enough games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use 10 or 15 minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any confidence that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run complete in under a day. I propose the following changes: I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is competition at lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few seconds for a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the weaker programs. I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 minutes per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a reasonable time limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale with additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be similar at 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. -David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Le mardi 8 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit : ... On 19x19 it might be 30 minutes per side like we have now, with 5 minute games for the fast time control.We would probably have to work it out so that program like gnugo would be able to handle the fast time control at their standard settings. At level 10, gnugo might need more than 10 min for some games (with lots of possible ataris or kos). At level 0 (with tons of really ugly moves, and only 2 stones weaker on kgs) 5 min should be ok. I think adding handicap to 19x19 is really a needed feature. Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
It is my opinion that 30 minutes per side is common for human tournament games, and thus makes sense for 19x19 CGOS. I think 10 minutes is rather restrictive, so maybe 20 minutes makes sense. I'll change the time settings to what people want (I'll count the choices on the mailing list and move to the most requested one), and add the 1s gift suggested by Don. By the way, MoGo does not join Cgos because some features (related to parallelization) make mogo only reliable on some clusters with specific (non-free) MPI-libraries; some people have accepted to run experiments with us, but we have no direct acces to the cluster and to this MPI-library. Therefore mogo won't be on cgos for the moment, whatever may be the time settings. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Then 15 minutes should be good. We want the anchor to play at the same strength as before. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alain Baeckeroot Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:40 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Le mardi 8 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit : ... On 19x19 it might be 30 minutes per side like we have now, with 5 minute games for the fast time control.We would probably have to work it out so that program like gnugo would be able to handle the fast time control at their standard settings. At level 10, gnugo might need more than 10 min for some games (with lots of possible ataris or kos). At level 0 (with tons of really ugly moves, and only 2 stones weaker on kgs) 5 min should be ok. I think adding handicap to 19x19 is really a needed feature. Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
It was Doug Larson's idea. Something like: Pull a single stone out of Atari once Play in a liberty of the group with fewest liberties that has 5 or fewer liberties Play random I also am thinking about building a really fast and weak playing bot. Something that is similar to the rule based program someone suggested to you, but with a few simple 3x3 patterns to supplement it.Do you remember what we called that program? It played by simple rules such as attacking the group with the least liberties, etc.We names it somewhat after the person who suggested the idea. - Don David Fotland wrote: I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 CGOS: 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, and CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so strong, it is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker programs. 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get enough games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use 10 or 15 minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any confidence that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run complete in under a day. I propose the following changes: I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is competition at lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few seconds for a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the weaker programs. I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 minutes per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a reasonable time limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale with additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be similar at 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. -David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I do not have a 19x19 bot right now. But I found that fast engines have to wait for slow engines is kind of boring. For example, if a majority of engines finish the game within 5 minutes and only one or two engines will finish the games in 30 minutes. Then all the fast engines have to wait the slow engines finish the game. Maybe we should consider scheduling games for the available engines at every 10 minutes while still leave the time limits for each game at 30 minutes? On Jan 8, 2008 4:06 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then 15 minutes should be good. We want the anchor to play at the same strength as before. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alain Baeckeroot Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:40 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Le mardi 8 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit: ... On 19x19 it might be 30 minutes per side like we have now, with 5 minute games for the fast time control.We would probably have to work it out so that program like gnugo would be able to handle the fast time control at their standard settings. At level 10, gnugo might need more than 10 min for some games (with lots of possible ataris or kos). At level 0 (with tons of really ugly moves, and only 2 stones weaker on kgs) 5 min should be ok. I think adding handicap to 19x19 is really a needed feature. Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
John Fan wrote: I do not have a 19x19 bot right now. But I found that fast engines have to wait for slow engines is kind of boring. For example, if a majority of engines finish the game within 5 minutes and only one or two engines will finish the games in 30 minutes. Then all the fast engines have to wait the slow engines finish the game. Maybe we should consider scheduling games for the available engines at every 10 minutes while still leave the time limits for each game at 30 minutes? I think you missed my posts - that's exactly what is planned. Essentially, there are 2 schedules running concurrently - a slow one and a fast one.The fast round is like a heartbeat - it is scheduled one after another. If your bot is not playing in a slow game it can play in the next available fast game. It will not have to worry about missing the next slow round either - the server will always wait for the current fast round to complete before scheduling a slow round. In this way, your bot can play in ALL slow round matches and yet still stay busy playing rated games when it's slow games finish early. More than likely, I would have 2 independent rating system - one for fast play and one for slow play. There would be an anchor player who plays the same regardless and would play in both sections. So you can expect your fast play rating to be less than your slow play rating if your program is scalable. Each program will choose which types of games it's interested in playing - slow, fast or both. So if you are not interested in slow games you can choose to only play at the fast time control.Some bots may choose to not play in the fast games. - Don On Jan 8, 2008 4:06 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then 15 minutes should be good. We want the anchor to play at the same strength as before. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Alain Baeckeroot Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:40 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Le mardi 8 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit: ... On 19x19 it might be 30 minutes per side like we have now, with 5 minute games for the fast time control.We would probably have to work it out so that program like gnugo would be able to handle the fast time control at their standard settings. At level 10, gnugo might need more than 10 min for some games (with lots of possible ataris or kos). At level 0 (with tons of really ugly moves, and only 2 stones weaker on kgs) 5 min should be ok. I think adding handicap to 19x19 is really a needed feature. Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
David Fotland wrote: It was Doug Larson's idea. Something like: Pull a single stone out of Atari once Play in a liberty of the group with fewest liberties that has 5 or fewer liberties Play random Yes, and we called the player Lardo after Doug Larson - (LA)rson (Do)ug. I can't find any trace of the binary or the source code on my computers! What I had in mind is taking the same general rules but instead of playing random use the ELO rated 3x3 patterns - and perhaps doing any really obvious fix-ups that don't involve serious coding efforts. - Don I also am thinking about building a really fast and weak playing bot. Something that is similar to the rule based program someone suggested to you, but with a few simple 3x3 patterns to supplement it.Do you remember what we called that program? It played by simple rules such as attacking the group with the least liberties, etc.We names it somewhat after the person who suggested the idea. - Don David Fotland wrote: I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 CGOS: 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, and CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so strong, it is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker programs. 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get enough games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use 10 or 15 minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any confidence that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run complete in under a day. I propose the following changes: I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is competition at lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few seconds for a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the weaker programs. I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 minutes per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a reasonable time limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale with additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be similar at 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. -David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
I want the fast games to be fairly fast compared to the slow games - even if we have to construct a different Anchor. If GnuGo is the anchor, it will probably be ok if it's run on a fast enough computer at 10 minutes.I hope. - Don David Fotland wrote: Then 15 minutes should be good. We want the anchor to play at the same strength as before. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alain Baeckeroot Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:40 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Le mardi 8 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit : ... On 19x19 it might be 30 minutes per side like we have now, with 5 minute games for the fast time control.We would probably have to work it out so that program like gnugo would be able to handle the fast time control at their standard settings. At level 10, gnugo might need more than 10 min for some games (with lots of possible ataris or kos). At level 0 (with tons of really ugly moves, and only 2 stones weaker on kgs) 5 min should be ok. I think adding handicap to 19x19 is really a needed feature. Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
That sounds like it would be weaker than Wally. You could just use Wally, though, with today's hardware,?I doubt many would find it a challenging opponent. - Dave Hillis -Original Message- From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? David Fotland wrote: It was Doug Larson's idea. Something like: Pull a single stone out of Atari once Play in a liberty of the group with fewest liberties that has 5 or fewer liberties Play random Yes, and we called the player Lardo after Doug Larson - (LA)rson (Do)ug. I can't find any trace of the binary or the source code on my computers! What I had in mind is taking the same general rules but instead of playing random use the ELO rated 3x3 patterns - and perhaps doing any really obvious fix-ups that don't involve serious coding efforts. - Don I also am thinking about building a really fast and weak playing bot. Something that is similar to the rule based program someone suggested to you, but with a few simple 3x3 patterns to supplement it.Do you remember what we called that program? It played by simple rules such as attacking the group with the least liberties, etc.We names it somewhat after the person who suggested the idea. - Don David Fotland wrote: I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 CGOS: 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, and CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so strong, it is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker programs. 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get enough games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use 10 or 15 minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any confidence that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run complete in under a day. I propose the following changes: I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is competition at lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few seconds for a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the weaker programs. I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 minutes per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a reasonable time limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale with additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be similar at 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. -David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Down the road, when I'm ready for it, I'd like for there still to be a 19x19 CGOS much like the one now. But, in the mean time, the current 19x19 CGOS is of no use at all in helping me get there. Ten minutes per side or faster would be ideal. Don's plan for 2 speeds on the same server sounds good, assuming bots don't have to wait too much. Currently, I see no good options for testing my 19x19 bot. Wally is much too weak, Gnugo is much too strong, and self-play is too hard to interpret. That's a major reason I haven't tried it much. - Dave Hillis -Original Message- From: John Fan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? I do not have a 19x19 bot right now. But I found that fast engines have to wait for slow engines is kind of boring. For example, if a majority of engines finish the game within 5 minutes and only one or two engines will finish the games in 30 minutes. Then all the fast engines have to wait the slow engines finish the game. Maybe we should consider scheduling games for the available engines at every 10 minutes while still leave the time limits for each game at 30 minutes? On Jan 8, 2008 4:06 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then 15 minutes should be good. We want the anchor to play at the same strength as before. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alain Baeckeroot Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:40 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Le mardi 8 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit: ... On 19x19 it might be 30 minutes per side like we have now, with 5 minute games for the fast time control. We would probably have to work it out so that program like gnugo would be able to handle the fast time control at their standard settings. At level 10, gnugo might need more than 10 min for some games (with lots of possible ataris or kos). At level 0 (with tons of really ugly moves, and only 2 stones weaker on kgs) 5 min should be ok. I think adding handicap to 19x19 is really a needed feature. Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ omputer-go mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ttp://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
will choose which types of games it's interested in playing - slow, fast or both. So if you are not interested in slow games you can choose to only play at the fast time control.Some bots may choose to not play in the fast games. - Don On Jan 8, 2008 4:06 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then 15 minutes should be good. We want the anchor to play at the same strength as before. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Alain Baeckeroot Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:40 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Le mardi 8 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit: ... On 19x19 it might be 30 minutes per side like we have now, with 5 minute games for the fast time control.We would probably have to work it out so that program like gnugo would be able to handle the fast time control at their standard settings. At level 10, gnugo might need more than 10 min for some games (with lots of possible ataris or kos). At level 0 (with tons of really ugly moves, and only 2 stones weaker on kgs) 5 min should be ok. I think adding handicap to 19x19 is really a needed feature. Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org mailto: computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
You can test your bot on the 19x19 cgos now, since I added 3 weak players today. They are so fast they don’t load my machine, so I’ll leave them up. David From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:42 PM To: computer-go@computer-go.org Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Down the road, when I'm ready for it, I'd like for there still to be a 19x19 CGOS much like the one now. But, in the mean time, the current 19x19 CGOS is of no use at all in helping me get there. Ten minutes per side or faster would be ideal. Don's plan for 2 speeds on the same server sounds good, assuming bots don't have to wait too much. Currently, I see no good options for testing my 19x19 bot. Wally is much too weak, Gnugo is much too strong, and self-play is too hard to interpret. That's a major reason I haven't tried it much. - Dave Hillis -Original Message- From: John Fan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? I do not have a 19x19 bot right now. But I found that fast engines have to wait for slow engines is kind of boring. For example, if a majority of engines finish the game within 5 minutes and only one or two engines will finish the games in 30 minutes. Then all the fast engines have to wait the slow engines finish the game. Maybe we should consider scheduling games for the available engines at every 10 minutes while still leave the time limits for each game at 30 minutes? On Jan 8, 2008 4:06 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then 15 minutes should be good. We want the anchor to play at the same strength as before. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alain Baeckeroot Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:40 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Le mardi 8 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit: ... On 19x19 it might be 30 minutes per side like we have now, with 5 minute games for the fast time control.We would probably have to work it out so that program like gnugo would be able to handle the fast time control at their standard settings. At level 10, gnugo might need more than 10 min for some games (with lots of possible ataris or kos). At level 0 (with tons of really ugly moves, and only 2 stones weaker on kgs) 5 min should be ok. I think adding handicap to 19x19 is really a needed feature. Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ _ More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aimcmp000501 ! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Yes, Largo. I have a version of this I can put on CGOS (and other's can too so that we can check each other for bugs). I tried using Largo as a component of a playout policy with no success. I will also put a version of MoGo up (the version that was released to the public). David Fotland wrote: It was Doug Larson's idea. Something like: Pull a single stone out of Atari once Play in a liberty of the group with fewest liberties that has 5 or fewer liberties Play random I also am thinking about building a really fast and weak playing bot. Something that is similar to the rule based program someone suggested to you, but with a few simple 3x3 patterns to supplement it.Do you remember what we called that program? It played by simple rules such as attacking the group with the least liberties, etc.We names it somewhat after the person who suggested the idea. - Don David Fotland wrote: I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 CGOS: 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, and CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so strong, it is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker programs. 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get enough games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use 10 or 15 minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any confidence that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run complete in under a day. I propose the following changes: I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is competition at lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few seconds for a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the weaker programs. I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 minutes per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a reasonable time limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale with additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be similar at 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. -David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
can play in ALL slow round matches and yet still stay busy playing rated games when it's slow games finish early. More than likely, I would have 2 independent rating system - one for fast play and one for slow play. There would be an anchor player who plays the same regardless and would play in both sections. So you can expect your fast play rating to be less than your slow play rating if your program is scalable. Each program will choose which types of games it's interested in playing - slow, fast or both. So if you are not interested in slow games you can choose to only play at the fast time control.Some bots may choose to not play in the fast games. - Don On Jan 8, 2008 4:06 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then 15 minutes should be good. We want the anchor to play at the same strength as before. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Alain Baeckeroot Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:40 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Le mardi 8 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit: ... On 19x19 it might be 30 minutes per side like we have now, with 5 minute games for the fast time control.We would probably have to work it out so that program like gnugo would be able to handle the fast time control at their standard settings. At level 10, gnugo might need more than 10 min for some games (with lots of possible ataris or kos). At level 0 (with tons of really ugly moves, and only 2 stones weaker on kgs) 5 min should be ok. I think adding handicap to 19x19 is really a needed feature. Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org mailto: computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org mailto:computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
Michael Williams wrote: Yes, Largo. I have a version of this I can put on CGOS (and other's can too so that we can check each other for bugs). I tried using Largo as a component of a playout policy with no success. It was Lardo, not Largo :-) Interesting idea using it as a play-out policy.Did you use the same rules as Lardo on CGOS? - Don I will also put a version of MoGo up (the version that was released to the public). David Fotland wrote: It was Doug Larson's idea. Something like: Pull a single stone out of Atari once Play in a liberty of the group with fewest liberties that has 5 or fewer liberties Play random I also am thinking about building a really fast and weak playing bot. Something that is similar to the rule based program someone suggested to you, but with a few simple 3x3 patterns to supplement it.Do you remember what we called that program? It played by simple rules such as attacking the group with the least liberties, etc.We names it somewhat after the person who suggested the idea. - Don David Fotland wrote: I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 CGOS: 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, and CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so strong, it is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker programs. 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get enough games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use 10 or 15 minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any confidence that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run complete in under a day. I propose the following changes: I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is competition at lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few seconds for a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the weaker programs. I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 minutes per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a reasonable time limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale with additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be similar at 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. -David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
If the programs are all playing faster than 15 minutes, then there is no problem, the server starts a new round as soon as the previous round completes.Of course just 1 program can hold this up. Did Olivier change the time control yet? Someone should put Gnugo on there, and publish to us which hardware and we can see if it makes time control. - Don David Fotland wrote: Well, there are 12 programs on 19x19 now, a big increase since this morning, and every one of them is playing under 10 minutes. A decrease in the time limit to 15 minutes would not affect any of these programs. It's nice to see the faster games, so the weak Many Faces 12 will get ratings sooner. So far it looks like these weak Many Faces are stronger than I expected. I tested and each level is 5 stones stronger than the next weakest, but they seem closer together when playing other programs. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Fotland Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:24 PM To: 'computer-go' Subject: RE: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? I expect the faster time control will make my program look worse. It will certainly do worse vs Gnugo with less time. I expect it will also do worse against crazystone, since the crazystone version currently running is much faster than the time control, so it won't change strength at all. The problem with the current time limits is that it takes forever to get a stable rank, so people don't leave their programs on long enough. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:08 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Hi David, Putting some weaker programs on CGOS is a good idea - I would like to see it seeded with players of many different strengths. Olivier is in charge of cgos 19x19 so whatever time he wants to set is up to him.I would suggest to him to set a 1 second time gift if he chooses to play at a faster rate since network will be a real issue with any who have a lousy connection. If the time control is cut in half, it will probably change the relative strengths of the programs, because some programs will not be crippled by the time change and other will. Here is what I would predict: 1. Gnugo would increase in ranking. 2. Your program will increase in rank - but not as much as GnuGo. 3. Crazy Stone will drop in rank. 4. Every program will drop in ELO except GnuGo or other non- scalable programs. I'm assuming that your program is scalable, that Crazy Stone is more scalable and GnuGo is not scalable (in other words it would run just the same as it does now.) So if we decrease the time control, it will make you look better and you may get lazy about improving your program. However, it might make GnuGo competitive with your program.I'm of course making certain scalability assumptions that might not be true. My suggest to Olivier is to compromise and set time control 20 minutes per side and give 1 second gift. - Don David Fotland wrote: I think there are two reasons there are not more programs on 19x19 CGOS: 1) The anchor, Gnugo, is quite strong, Many Faces 12 is stronger, and CrazyStone is much stronger. Since the programs playing are so strong, it is demoralizing for a new program to lose so often. Without weaker competition, it is hard to get accurate ratings for new, weaker programs. 2) The rounds take almost an hour, so it takes much too long to get enough games to see how your program is doing. In my local testing, I use 10 or 15 minutes per side. I like to see 50 to 100 test games get any confidence that a new version is stronger. I prefer to get a test run complete in under a day. I propose the following changes: I'll put up 3 weaker versions of Many Faces 12, so there is competition at lower ratings. These versions are quite fast, using only a few seconds for a full game. This will provide some stable opponents for the weaker programs. I think the time limits for CGOS19x19 should be reduced to 10 or 15 minutes per side. This is enough to test programs, and it's still a reasonable time limit for games against people. Since programs that search scale with additional time, the relative ratings of these programs should be similar at 10 minutes per game and 30 minutes per game. -David
Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS?
of timing issues.Because of the imposed delays to try to make the server more balanced it turns out that scheduling in discreet rounds is not that bad a solution - it does not decrease the frequency of play as much as I had imagined. You see this same problem on real servers too. You want to play a particular opponent, but he is in a game. You can wait for him, but then you are not playing. You can play a game meanwhile, but when you are finished he is playing someone else. The cycle can keep you locked out for a very long time.On CGOS this kind of cycling sometimes made it difficult for strong players to play each other - they were too busy playing weaker opponents. - Don On Jan 8, 2008 5:18 PM, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Fan wrote: I do not have a 19x19 bot right now. But I found that fast engines have to wait for slow engines is kind of boring. For example, if a majority of engines finish the game within 5 minutes and only one or two engines will finish the games in 30 minutes. Then all the fast engines have to wait the slow engines finish the game. Maybe we should consider scheduling games for the available engines at every 10 minutes while still leave the time limits for each game at 30 minutes? I think you missed my posts - that's exactly what is planned. Essentially, there are 2 schedules running concurrently - a slow one and a fast one.The fast round is like a heartbeat - it is scheduled one after another. If your bot is not playing in a slow game it can play in the next available fast game. It will not have to worry about missing the next slow round either - the server will always wait for the current fast round to complete before scheduling a slow round. In this way, your bot can play in ALL slow round matches and yet still stay busy playing rated games when it's slow games finish early. More than likely, I would have 2 independent rating system - one for fast play and one for slow play. There would be an anchor player who plays the same regardless and would play in both sections. So you can expect your fast play rating to be less than your slow play rating if your program is scalable. Each program will choose which types of games it's interested in playing - slow, fast or both. So if you are not interested in slow games you can choose to only play at the fast time control.Some bots may choose to not play in the fast games. - Don On Jan 8, 2008 4:06 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then 15 minutes should be good. We want the anchor to play at the same strength as before. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Alain Baeckeroot Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:40 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] How to get more participation in 19x19 CGOS? Le mardi 8 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit: ... On 19x19 it might be 30 minutes per side like we have now, with 5 minute games for the fast time control.We would probably have to work it out so
