All about the ko.
No?
Add a few ko+seki possibilities, life gets complicated for Mr. Computer.
Five hard fights with two ko? Doneski.
Win for human.
s.
On Oct 9, 2013 12:37 PM, Robert Jasiek jas...@snafu.de wrote:
On 09.10.2013 20:54, Ingo Althöfer wrote:
It stands for localizing multiple
one's on kgs right now.
s.
On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 6:20 AM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.dewrote:
Hello,
will there be bot games at the EGC 2013?
If so, can we watch them somewhere?
Ingo.
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You can likely think about this in the context of bloom filters.
s.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Brandon Cieslak bcies...@lclark.eduwrote:
*
Hello Computer Go mailing list,
We were wondering if anyone has ever seen or heard of a method of storing
patterns similar to the one we are
I think that maybe I see the mistake here.
What you (Stefan) seem to be thinking is:
Okay, I make an estimate about a bunch of positions. I assume that I'm not
100% correct. Some give me a huge lead, some give me a tiny lead. I should
bias those that give a huge lead just in case I'm wrong.
(not thinking clearly)
5,5?!?
s.
On Jun 3, 2013 6:34 PM, Darren Cook dar...@dcook.org wrote:
My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/93/index.html
Round-7: why is W ahead by 16 points? Aren't all the white
stones in the upper right corner dead?
Agreed (unless there is a typo
there's a growing market in fake conferences, unfortunately.
s.
On May 9, 2013 1:16 PM, Petr Baudis pa...@ucw.cz wrote:
On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 07:47:12PM +0200, Rémi Coulom wrote:
I tried to send a polite request to Rudy Lolo but he did not answer.
I agree, it's more and more noise and
I think that you might be confusing this with alpha-beta search for other
games.
There are not a lot of reasonable functions for computing the value of a
board. There are unambiguous situations, and the playouts are intended to
run until one such unambiguous situation occurs, after which
the business about ending games in completely hopeless positions -- i'm not
sure that makes the most sense. i realize how aggravating it can be for
observers, especially in such a long game, but i'm not sure that it's the
right decision.
s.
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Nick Wedd
that is in fact how one of the categories for the sorting contest works:
http://sortbenchmark.org/
s.
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Michael Williams
michaelwilliam...@gmail.com wrote:
The only fair way: Limit it to 150W/contestant. ;)
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 2:15 AM, Erik van der
I think that you guys are overcomplicating the fact that a man offered a
tournament setup with a prize with rules.
I'm sure alternative formats proposed by other tournament organizers might
be interesting too, but I'm simply curious to see how this particular one
works out.
s.
On Jul 12, 2012
There was a triple Ko recently on kgs during a youth match. I'm not
qualified to say how naturally it arose, but it was under NZ rules, so kept
play progressing (and was a major disadvantage to black, if I recall
correctly).
I think that the edge cases are much more easily exploited by stronger
to point out the known -- if you're trying to score positions that are
very early in the game, you are trying to solve the whole problem of
the game of go at once. unfortunately, that is very hard.
to belabor this for a moment: imagine that you had a perfect score
estimator for any given board
http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/joalet.pdf
s.
On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 1:18 AM, Rudy Lolo rudylolo2...@yahoo.com wrote:
What kind of Compelling CASE you mean?
Dari: steve uurtamo uurt...@gmail.com
Kepada: Rudy Lolo rudylolo2...@yahoo.com; computer
There's power in them thar randomness.
On Mar 12, 2012 5:04 AM, Folkert van Heusden folk...@vanheusden.com
wrote:
I'd like to know how weak random bot on 19x19, but it seems
weakest program Stop-cur's rating stops zero.
I'd be happy if I could see his minus elo.
Am I reading this
Takemiya? At 5 stones he should destroy zen.
No?
On Mar 1, 2012 9:56 PM, Hideki Kato hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp wrote:
Dear readers,
Two interesting computer Go events will be held in Japan soon.
1. 3/5 (Mon) - 3/6 (Tue) JST (+0900)
JAIST Cup 2012 (http://www.jaist.ac.jp/jaistcup/2012/ in
Thank you. Although I knew that the professional ranks were close, these
are quite impressive results.
s.
On Mar 1, 2012 11:03 PM, Hideki Kato hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp wrote:
Hi Steve,
steve uurtamo: CADg0iND1Q-g_o-ykF2Lsb=M-htbzvxFLfhXZ=
oc3-mac3lc...@mail.gmail.com:
Takemiya? At 5 stones he
;) common go problem for humans -- playing at the speed of your
opponent is almost always a disaster, at least for me.
s.
On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 9:23 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote:
I'll keep it up. If it crashes and drops off let me know and I'll restart
it.
In 1998 this
I hate to address it, but access to the binary would pretty much give away
the structure of the prng.
s.
On Jan 27, 2012 8:46 AM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote:
Petr Baudis pa...@ucw.cz:
Ingo Althofer wrote:
David Fotland is willing to provide the old bot - also for sparring
as critical as it was because it
tenuki-ed to the top for one move before sealing the lower group's fate.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 10:10 AM, steve uurtamo uurt...@gmail.com wrote:
to be fair, that was a very subtle situation. only two of the hundreds
of kibitzers expressed anything like
in the post-game analysis that i watched, the more relevant factor
seemed to be decisions made earlier in the game. but you should ask
john what he thinks, it was his game, after all!
s.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 7:40 AM, steve uurtamo uurt...@gmail.com wrote:
the group simply did not have two
I think that the advertisement here was a great idea.
s.
On Jan 15, 2012 6:26 PM, Jeff Nowakowski j...@dilacero.org wrote:
Game 3, with mostly dan-level comments:
http://files.gokgs.com/games/**2012/1/16/PaperTiger-2.sgfhttp://files.gokgs.com/games/2012/1/16/PaperTiger-2.sgf
Zen won by
i'd be surprised if the ko threats had more utility for mcts than as
potential chances for winning due to mistake. i.e. if you have 50 ko
threats, they all look like (especially after digging into the tree)
ways to win due to mistake.
s.
On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 1:24 PM, David Fotland
...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of steve uurtamo
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 1:27 PM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] John is Tromp in Game 1
i'd be surprised if the ko threats had more utility for mcts than as
potential chances for winning due
underestimation?
s.
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Yamato yamato...@yahoo.co.jp wrote:
(2012/01/09 9:56), Jouni Valkonen wrote:
There is indeed a problem with Dynamic komi with Zen. Zen often loses
the handicap games if black tries to minimize the move count. Often if
it is possible to
awesome. :)
s.
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 8:12 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote:
For Many Faces, all engine code is c, and line counts are from wc (includes
blank lines and comments for .c and .h files)
today:
The uct/playout code is 10K lines.
The old go engine is 55K
territory is not evaluated as being as secure as it
should be. It seems easier for MCTS to kill groups in the center in the
playouts.
David
-Original Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of steve uurtamo
Sent: Sunday
Imagine how strong they'd be at 0.1 sec/move.
Seems like it's really only fair to measure at non-blitz.
s.
On Jan 7, 2012 3:32 PM, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote:
Jouni, 6d’s are NOT ridiculously strong. I am a solid 6d KGS player but
lost many games to Zen and Crazy Stones. Actually
there exists a general tool for doing things like this:
http://www2.research.att.com/~njas/gosset/index.html
you can optimize over discrete parameters, continuous parameters,
etc., by describing them, generating the experiments, and iterating.
it's not simply an optimization tool, so requires
even if you have *no idea* about the response function and simply want
to get information about the response space, sphere packing the sample
points is incredibly efficient, and supported by gosset. you end up
with points at the edge because they give lots and lots of information
gain, not because
The tournaments I organise on KGS do not include any with an hour each.
it would be nice for machines to be allowed to enter the regular
tournaments as well. :)
or, if that's too hard to organize, to allow people to enter some of
the machine tournaments. ;)
s.
i think that kgs players might be more open-minded about this.
s.
On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk wrote:
On 03/01/2012 11:25, Petr Baudis wrote:
snip
Have the courage to
compete under human conditions! Enter human tournaments!
That's easy to say. Do you
I can consider that. How would I select the human players? I can't let
people join without restriction, that might produce many more human players
than bots, and undermine a major source of KGS revenue. Though I guess the
tough schedule, close to eight hours of solid play, would be a
i'd remove or alter the second requirement, it's actually quite hard
to get that many games against strong bots, and doesn't add much
(anything?) to the play for people to have done so.
what you would want to see is strong players in a tournament, right? i
agree about the rank ordering.
s.
On
that's great to hear!
there's a categorical and strong empirical difference between players
on kgs that are over 5d from those who are below 5d. it's shockingly
clear in slowish games. i'd love to see a machine at 6d, and expect
that there's nothing stopping it from happening soon.
keep up the
Petr, unfortunately, you may be unaware of both what this mailing list is
about and how mailing lists work. Nobody is spamming you.
s.
On Nov 23, 2011 8:19 AM, Petr Josifek xjosi...@yahoo.com wrote:
Dear Nick,
Please stop sending me this spams. I asked, where can i download game, not
about
I guess the question is what do we want to
identify: the strongest program or the strongest artificial playing
entity?
I'm starting to be convinced that there's very little difference. Code
isn't generally separable from its hardware, once it has been heavily
optimized. This has been discussed
If you don't see why that it is false, consider this more extreme example.
I will toss it 1000 times, look for the run of 100 tosses that has the most
heads, and look up the results for that run in a ststistical table and
announce its significance level.
to beat a dead horse...
moreover,
kgs recently had a tournament where bots were allowed to play -- it
was on nonstandard-sized boards, and zen did fantastically well,
taking second place in the 21x21 tournament, in both american/european
and asian/european divisions.
there are also a stable of people throwing themselves at zen in
plaer. Such rights will be asserted and exercised by the
owner of the program.
b. Tournament announcements must clearly state the conditions.
-Original Message-
From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of steve uurtamo
Sent: Tuesday, August
i think that if it's exactly the same code during the entire
tournament, then it's a reasonable restriction. but i realize that
that's a minor issue in the big picture. exactly the same code
forever would be a very weird restriction indeed.
s.
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 5:01 PM, Jason House
but they might be most fair.
s.
On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Michael Williams
michaelwilliam...@gmail.com wrote:
Of course the participants' opinions matter most, but I do not understand
the attraction to integer komi. Draws are ugly and inconvenient.
On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 12:09 PM,
lol.
s.
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 7:20 AM, Stefan Kaitschick
stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de wrote:
Am 18.07.2011 14:58, schrieb terry mcintyre:
Perhaps the admin was simply trying to apply the tournament rules
uniformly?
Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com
Even as a german, I blanch in
there is a technical reason why even sized boards never show up except
for artificial situations -- there is no tengen. i believe (although i
haven't thought about it carefully) that this affects mirror go, so
makes it a technically different game (more so than just size). so for
instance, 20x20
It also has a joseki book with all published lines in english, entered from
books (about 60K positions).
and for the non-go players out there, this is useful, critical, and
very difficult to use correctly. without joseki sequences, 19x19 games
can effectively end in the first 30 moves or so.
Imagine a situation where
my opponent just attacked a large group of mine. It turns out the move
doesn't need a response (gote), but it is not at all obvious that it
doesn't need a response. A good tenuki will not be explored much by
MCTS, because initially it looks like its score is much
One side note: perhaps I missed something, but why would KGS need to
support *any* particular time system in order for the challenge to go
through? Was KGS somehow a required part of the challenge?
I certainly understand that it would be more fun to watch it on KGS
live, but it could be simulcast
given the random games that were recently played, it's in fact most go
positions.
s.
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote:
Eh, of course you are right. I saw that in the game, then now I thought
I was wrong and now I'm wondering how could I miss it. ;-)
i am coming late into this thread and apologize for the intrusiveness,
but i feel like i'm missing something here and thought that i'd give
my first thought.
if the number of processors is fixed (i.e. you don't have to worry
about it increasing or decreasing over the course of the game), why
not
thanks for the wealth of information. it's great to see raw data like this,
s.
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:57 AM, valky...@phmp.se wrote:
Quoting Jean-loup Gailly jl...@gailly.net:
Magnus writes:
Further, I would imagine many jigos could be quite peaceful short games
What makes you think
it is a compromise between load balancing Vs redundancy.
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:03 AM, steve uurtamo uurt...@gmail.com wrote:
i am coming late into this thread and apologize for the intrusiveness,
but i feel like i'm missing something here and thought that i'd give
my first thought.
if the number
reassembly is simple, and pruning is
uncomplicated.
:)
s.
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:06 AM, steve uurtamo uurt...@gmail.com wrote:
the point of uniformly at random partitioning the space is that by a
simple probabilistic argument, most processors will be doing useful
work most of the time
I think you completely miss the point.
that's super unfortunate.
but in case i haven't, let me make myself more clear:
whenever you have a distribution from which you would like to
uniformly sample, if the number of things to be sampled is small
enough, you can simply randomly reorganize them,
it's something like halfway between fisher time and absolute time.
think of the number of byo-yomi periods as the number of times you are
allowed to think for an excessive amount of time before losing the
game by default. (where excessive is defined by the length of each
byo-yomi period). when
super bowl bot tournament. :)
s.
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk wrote:
The February 2011 KGS computer Go tournament will be on Sunday February 6th,
starting at 08:00 UTC and ending at 16:00 UTC.
I have tried to post more details, but my postings aren't
if you can get people interested in it, you can get it for free with
BOINC (berkeley open infrastructure for network computing). this is
how s...@home works, for instance, along with a bunch of other
projects that come in and go out as they finish working over their
datasets.
you can get massive,
i think that don has best made this point in the past[1], but
championship events are relatively poor predictors of skill because of
their limited number of sample points. something like cgos ranking
over time (among those who participate) is a pretty good way to
compare computer go playing
Will the games be transmitted on KGS?
Yes - in the EGR, relayed by 'BGAmatches'.
Nick
great! is this still valid info? (first game in 14 minutes or so?)
s.
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Computer-go@dvandva.org
can't find any rating info for john tromp via the european ranking
data or the AGA. :)
s.
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Darren Cook dar...@dcook.org wrote:
Looks like the games start one hour earlier than that, at 10am and 2pm:
http://www.computer-go.info/h-c/gobet/index.html
It seems
I'm starting to suspect that I'll be forced to implement this myself,
obnoxious and time consuming as that is.
i'm starting to suspect that you regard this as a solved problem,
somehow. it's very unsolved, merely approximated. the most obnoxious
part about it isn't trivial details, it's really
does the hardware need to be onsite?
s.
On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Brian Sheppard sheppar...@aol.com wrote:
I recently reached the same conclusion for single-processor systems: a 980x
system seems best.
Building your own is crucial here, as buying pre-built systems will get you
a ton
it occurs to me that much of what is being written is optimizing for
cpu and not for ram. is this true? ram has often been the limiting
factor in scientific computing -- having 16x ram can mean a major
change in what you're able to accomplish. ram, consequently, is much
more dicey to optimize for,
Go is so huge there is not much that can be done with big precalculated data
(like endgame tablebases in chess).
i agree with the (not like endgame tablebases), but i'm not convinced
about the former. scientific computing is generally done over massive
problems. but there are usually ways to
i am going to assume that donated hardware violates the spirit of the
best hardware under $5000, correct?
s.
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:17 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote:
I can confirm that John was playing a version running on a 4-core 2.2 GHz,
Core2 Quad. The engine had a
ah, thanks. that answers what my actual question was, which is if the
rule was intended to limit the hardware, or to limit the expense.
thanks,
s.
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk wrote:
In message aanlktin99nepawzcturus7hw7dd3ulr6+gn=9zjob...@mail.gmail.com,
steve
if you think about it, it simply *cannot* be accurate.
Is that logic or is credulity speaking?
credulity, since i have no information about the specifics of how
these two groups are being measured other than to say that they're not
being measured in the same way.
to be clear, i'm talking
eh? i'm sure that they completely dominate humans, i'm just saying
that they dominate them so strongly that it's not clear how to measure
their strength on the same scale.
it's also clear that they're not part of the FIDE ranking system, right?
s.
___
dunno, but even back in the 90's there were 64-byte word machines.
which isn't inconceivably less than what you're looking for.
s.
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:20 PM, terry mcintyre
terrymcint...@yahoo.com wrote:
I just have to ask: in what sort of numerical system is 10 to the 224th
power a
...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of steve uurtamo
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 4:48 AM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Team Play (was: Shogi-News...)
dunno, but even back in the 90's there were 64-byte word machines.
which isn't inconceivably less than what you're looking
and i was hallucinating. :)
s.
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:54 AM, steve uurtamo uurt...@gmail.com wrote:
no, i actually meant 64-byte words.
s.
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:49 AM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com
wrote:
I think you mean 64-bit word :) 2^64 is inconceivably less than
game length is unrelated to difficulty.
there are 19 move games with uncomputable winning strategies, and it's
easy to create games of any length whose perfect strategy is easily
computable (in logspace, and linear time, say).
i think that using log(max_elo-min_elo) is a pretty fair way to do
kasebrotchen is a roll baked with lots of cheese on top. it kicks ass.
s.
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:12 PM, terry mcintyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com wrote:
Cheese-bread, so far as I know, is a bread stuffed with cheese. I often
enjoy them at Brazilian churrascarias. There are many delightful
Wouldn't by that definition Poker become a very simple game?
Due to the large luck factor even a skilled player wins
only by a relatively small margin against a weaker player.
Even a pro can loose on a bad day against a beginner. This
is not possible in a perfect information game like chess
lose. to anyone.
s.
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Christoph Birk
b...@obs.carnegiescience.edu wrote:
On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, steve uurtamo wrote:
Wouldn't by that definition Poker become a very simple game?
Due to the large luck factor even a skilled player wins
only by a relatively small
you might want to watch this video carefully if you haven't seen it before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt1FvPxmmfE
s.
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from the bottom to the top of pro ranks is something like 1.5 stones, right?
so 4 is more than a doubling beyond that difference...
s.
On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Don Dailey dailey@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 12:18 PM, David Fotland
fotl...@smart-games.comwrote:
who has a book that extends to the middlegame?
;)
s.
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Hiroshi Yamashita y...@bd.mbn.or.jp wrote:
You can see Japanese biggest newspaper news. (In Japanese)
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/culture/news/20101002-OYT1T00668.htm
--
it'd definitely be interesting to know what move (or small region of moves)
she's referring to.
s.
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Olivier Teytaud olivier.teyt...@lri.frwrote:
My two cents: Li Yue told me in the past that a main weakness of computers
was in the big yose.
Computers are (I
by this definition of lightweight, i think an embedded unix-based os with an
ethernet jack, as much ram as you could afford to buy, and as many cores as
you could afford to buy would weigh less than the hard drive on someone
else's machine.
wire up an external power supply to feed all of these,
i think just limiting watts used would do the trick.
s.
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Thomas Wolf tw...@brocku.ca wrote:
How about this more green and healthy idea:
The programmer has to generate the electric power for the computer playing
the
whole game, for example, by pedaling a
yeah, it's a pretty fantastic idea, terry.
kgs supports simul play -- i doubt it supports n simul players playing one
another with identical time limits in tournament mode. ;)
but it's a cool idea.
s.
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Adrian Petrescu apetr...@gmail.com wrote:
I hadn't even
i agree with almost all of what don said.
i'd like to point out that uniform, homogenous environments do not allow for
super tricky and super cool uses of technology to necessarily take place.
some of which might give what you'd describe as unfair massive advantages,
but which would still be
a draw system would be pretty interesting.
jigo with 1/2 pt. for both players, or what?
s.
On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:53 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.comwrote:
There has been some discussion of using a 7 point komi on 9x9 and allowing
draws.
David
-Original Message-
this made me smile.
i think, though, that wasting a ko threat is wasting a ko threat and that
trying to force a computer into a bad time or memory management situation
seems like a fairly unsound strategy -- you can only really guarantee that
you've done two things (without exact knowledge of the
agreed. and disturbingly, all of the knowledge i gained from reading in the
beginning (several stones almost immediately) is the kind of thing that i
cannot see how to make a computer take advantage of. which feels very weird.
worse still, even if you could program in most of the three basic
I kind of like to think of games (of perfect information) in terms of what
chance does a top human (or future human) player have a beating or drawing a
player who is omniscient in the game.If that chance is very close to
zero, it's a good game and it doesn't make it a better game to make
under $500 sounds good to me. my mobo may have just taken a digger - at the
very least my bios has and half of my ram has. i think that i paid nearly
$500 for my mobo+cpu with no ram not too many years ago... i'd be sad to see
a different POST, but maybe it's time at that price.
s.
On Mon, Jun
This is WAY MORE than just alpha/beta and counting pieces.
Keep in mind what the original question was about -- why is one so much
further along strength-wise than the other, or what it is that makes the two
games different from a machine-attacking point of view.
Sure, chess programs will
Why are you comparing humans to computers?It's ridiculous to measure
progress by comparing to the top human players.What we care about is how
much progress we can make from year to year.
i think that the use of the word ridiculous might be a bit strong.
measuring against humans is
AI, at least as it was originally conceived, was not and is not being used
in the more successful attempts to make computers play either Go or Chess
well. As unsexy as that is, it's just the facts. AI has failed badly in
these tasks, and there's not much to be done about it. Something akin to
(to add to the noise): i have to pull about 1/5 of this list's emails
out of gmail's spam filter, although i've never marked a single
message from the list as spam, to my knowledge.
s.
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Rémi Coulom remi.cou...@free.fr wrote:
John Aspinall wrote:
Hello,
This
90 matches
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