Re: CPRNGs are still an issue.

2008-12-17 Thread Damien Miller
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008, mhey...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Damien Miller d...@mindrot.org wrote: On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, James A. Donald wrote: If one uses a higher resolution counter - sub microsecond - and times multiple disk accesses, one gets true physical

Re: Why the poor uptake of encrypted email?

2008-12-17 Thread Peter Gutmann
StealthMonger stealthmon...@nym.mixmin.net writes: Connection-based communication such as Skype and OTR do not provide this capability. The hop by hop store-and-forward email network does. This is not busted or wrong. It's essential. ... to a statistically irrelevant bunch of geeks. Watch

Re: CPRNGs are still an issue.

2008-12-17 Thread Jerry Leichter
On Dec 16, 2008, at 12:10 PM, Simon Josefsson wrote: ...I agree with your recommendation to write an AES key to devices at manufacturing time. However it always comes with costs, including: 1) The cost of improving the manufacture process sufficiently well to make it unlikely that compromised

Re: CPRNGs are still an issue.

2008-12-17 Thread Jerry Leichter
On Dec 16, 2008, at 4:22 PM, Charles Jackson wrote: I probably should not be commenting, not being a real device guy. But, variations in temperature and time could be expected to change SSD timing. Temperature changes will probably change the power supply voltages and shift some of the

Re: CPRNGs are still an issue.

2008-12-17 Thread Perry E. Metzger
Jerry Leichter leich...@lrw.com writes: SSD's are complicated devices. Complexity makes it hard to understand the security characteristics of relying on the timing of the devices. So ... use with extreme caution. Estimate conservatively. Mix any apparent entropy you get with other sources.

Re: CPRNGs are still an issue.

2008-12-17 Thread Steven M. Bellovin
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:02:58 -0500 Jerry Leichter leich...@lrw.com wrote: On Dec 16, 2008, at 4:22 PM, Charles Jackson wrote: I probably should not be commenting, not being a real device guy. But, variations in temperature and time could be expected to change SSD timing.

CPRNGs and assurance...

2008-12-17 Thread Perry E. Metzger
I'd like to expand on a point I made a little while ago about the just throw everything at it, and hope the good sources drown out the bad ones entropy collection strategy. The biggest problem in security systems isn't whether you're using 128 bit or 256 bit AES keys or similar trivia. The

Re: CPRNGs are still an issue.

2008-12-17 Thread Peter Gutmann
Bill Frantz fra...@pwpconsult.com writes: I find myself in this situation with a design I'm working on. I have an ARM chip, where each chip has two unique numbers burned into the chip for a total of 160 bits. I don't think I can really depend on these numbers being secret, since the chip

RE: CPRNGs are still an issue.

2008-12-17 Thread Charles Jackson
-Michael Heyman Wrote: Before we give up on using drive timings [as an entropy source], does anyone have evidence to verify this assertion [that SSD drives will have much less variation in read/write timing]? The reviews I have seen using tools like HD Tune and HD Tach seem to show timing noise

Re: CPRNGs are still an issue.

2008-12-17 Thread Peter Gutmann
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Joachim_Str=F6mbergson?= joac...@strombergson.com writes: Damien Miller wrote: Until someone runs your software on a SSD instead of a HDD. Oops. That is a very good observation. I would bet loads of GM stocks that very few people realise that moving from 0ld sk00l HDD to SSD would

Re: CPRNGs are still an issue.

2008-12-17 Thread Jerry Leichter
On Dec 15, 2008, at 2:28 PM, Joachim Strömbergson wrote: ...One could probably do a similar comparison to the increasingly popular idea of building virtual LANs to connect your virtualized server running on the same physical host. Ethernet frame reception time variance as well as other real

Re: Why the poor uptake of encrypted email?

2008-12-17 Thread Nicolas Williams
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 03:06:04AM +, StealthMonger wrote: Alec Muffett alec.muff...@sun.com writes: In the world of e-mail the problem is that the end-user inherits a blob of data which was encrypted in order to defend the message as it passes hop by hop over the store-and-forward