Ken Brown wrote:
Er, I hit send prematurely, and I meant to go on to say that I have
often used 1 or 200 UKP in folding money - it is easy to do with
universal availability of ATMs.
[...]
Of course that doesn't apply to genuinely expensive items. I'm not sure
I ever spend more than maybe 200
--- begin forwarded text
Status: U
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1331
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:21:01 +0200
Subject: Re: Bad guys vs. Good guys
From: David G.W. Birch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Bob Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Digital Bearer Settlement List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
R
Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer wrote:
I used a VISA debit card to buy a $25,000 Ford Explorer.
You mentioned this for the fourth time this month.
It would be refreshing if you could name some other merchandise next time, maybe
some non-redneck items ?
Not redneck. A
Nope, Usually credit card transactions are free for the payer
Bullshit, they charge interest on the loans and such. You should
read your credit card bills closer.
Not sure if the rules are different over there then - after all, you add
on extra charges to the ticket price when you reach the
Ken Brown wrote:
Er, I hit send prematurely, and I meant to go on to say that I have
often used 1 or 200 UKP in folding money - it is easy to do with
universal availability of ATMs. If anything I use more cash than I did
15 years ago because it is so simple to get hold of. And saves the
--- begin forwarded text
Status: U
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1331
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:21:01 +0200
Subject: Re: Bad guys vs. Good guys
From: David G.W. Birch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Bob Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Digital Bearer Settlement List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
R
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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At 2:22 PM -0700 on 5/12/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
that needs to be handled in synergy with medications.)
Tried that. Makes me a really grouchy bastard who'd kick your ass
soon as look at you. Oh. Wait. I just just kicked your ass anyway,
without
R. A. Hettinga wrote:
The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place
is because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the
United States.
I really wonder what component of this market is actually payment
driven. After all, to easily buy *anything* over,
Er, I hit send prematurely, and I meant to go on to say that I have
often used 1 or 200 UKP in folding money - it is easy to do with
universal availability of ATMs. If anything I use more cash than I did
15 years ago because it is so simple to get hold of. And saves the
bother of waiting while
On Sat, May 11, 2002 at 08:23:39PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
| On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:20:32PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
| And most of the sheeple _like_ it. They'd rather be safe than free. For
| every complaint I've heard about having to reassure the bank that the
| card wasn't
On Monday, May 13, 2002, at 05:01 AM, Ken Brown wrote:
R. A. Hettinga wrote:
The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place
is because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the
United States.
I really wonder what component of this market is actually payment
On Sun, May 12, 2002 at 10:18:41AM -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
| Morlock Elloi wrote:
|
| Mental constructs like this one, complicated schemes that require knowledge of
| modular aritmetic to understand, is why this will not happen.
|
| Whatever aspires to replace paper cash for purposes
On Sun, 12 May 2002, Ian Grigg wrote:
The problem with paying for anything over $100 is
having the money with you at that time.
Most such purchases are not 'off the cuff'. They are planned.
Most purchases are done at some random future time,
Bullshit, most folks plan their future
On Sun, 12 May 2002, David Howe wrote:
Nope, Usually credit card transactions are free for the payer
Bullshit, they charge interest on the loans and such. You should read your
credit card bills closer. Every time you use a credit card there is a
interest charge for the 'loan' applied. If you
On Sun, 12 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Huge numbers of people use modular arithmetic to secure their
credit card numbers, their transactions with overseas banks in tax
havens, their transfers of e-gold. They do not to understand
modular arithmetic. They just understand that third
On Sun, 12 May 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
Think about what you just said, there. Don't you realize that 1:M
*always* starts 1:1? It's the same kind of
evil-bourgeois-businessman hierarchical command-economy argument
that aristocrats and peasants throw around. It's amazing how this
kind of
I used a VISA debit card to buy a $25,000 Ford Explorer.
You mentioned this for the fourth time this month.
It would be refreshing if you could name some other merchandise next time, maybe some
non-redneck items ?
More to the point, you don't *live* unless you're selling
something,
What the hell does *live* mean? There are quite a few folks on this
planet
who 'sell' nothing. They grow their own food, they build their own
house.
snippage
No stores, no electricity, no telephones, no air
At 1:12 AM +0200 on 5/14/02, Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer
wrote:
It would be refreshing if you could name some other merchandise next
time, maybe some non-redneck items ?
Elitist.
RAH
El Paso Chapter, Bourgeois Liberation Front
--
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto:
Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer wrote:
I used a VISA debit card to buy a $25,000 Ford Explorer.
You mentioned this for the fourth time this month.
It would be refreshing if you could name some other merchandise next time, maybe
some non-redneck items ?
Not redneck. A
R. A. Hettinga wrote:
The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place
is because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the
United States.
I really wonder what component of this market is actually payment
driven. After all, to easily buy *anything* over,
On Sat, May 11, 2002 at 08:23:39PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
| On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:20:32PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
| And most of the sheeple _like_ it. They'd rather be safe than free. For
| every complaint I've heard about having to reassure the bank that the
| card wasn't
On Sun, May 12, 2002 at 10:18:41AM -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
| Morlock Elloi wrote:
|
| Mental constructs like this one, complicated schemes that require knowledge of
| modular aritmetic to understand, is why this will not happen.
|
| Whatever aspires to replace paper cash for purposes
At 1:01 PM +0100 on 5/13/02, Ken Brown wrote:
I really wonder what component of this market is actually payment
driven. After all, to easily buy *anything* over, say, $100 right
now, you have to borrow money, use a credit card, to do it.
?
I use a debit card, one that draws against my
On Sun, 12 May 2002, Ian Grigg wrote:
The problem with paying for anything over $100 is
having the money with you at that time.
Most such purchases are not 'off the cuff'. They are planned.
Most purchases are done at some random future time,
Bullshit, most folks plan their future
On Sun, 12 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Huge numbers of people use modular arithmetic to secure their
credit card numbers, their transactions with overseas banks in tax
havens, their transfers of e-gold. They do not to understand
modular arithmetic. They just understand that third
On Sun, 12 May 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
Think about what you just said, there. Don't you realize that 1:M
*always* starts 1:1? It's the same kind of
evil-bourgeois-businessman hierarchical command-economy argument
that aristocrats and peasants throw around. It's amazing how this
kind of
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At 6:03 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Eric Cordian wrote:
The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place
is because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the
United States.
I really wonder what component of this market is
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At 8:47 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Flipping bits in the gates or on the wire is not that - unless Joe
the Hitman or Gordon the Dealer or Jeff the Cleaner can well
understand it and in addition to that have implementor's balls
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At 6:55 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Also let's not forget that person A givin person B cash is
zero-cost untraceable transaction.
Oh, but it's not. Try to carry around a good merchant's daily
receipts in cash every day, see how
Also let's not forget that person A givin person B cash is
zero-cost untraceable transaction.
Oh, but it's not. Try to carry around a good merchant's daily
receipts in cash every day, see how much you end up paying for guys
in armored cars instead.
Wrong analogy. I don't care about 1:M
People don't actually have to understand it as long as they get paid,
of course. People who are getting paid want to get paid as cheaply
as possible, ceterus parabus, and so any payment mechanism's
At which point do you fail to understand that people who *need* anon,
untraceable transactions
On Sun, 12 May 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
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At 6:55 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Also let's not forget that person A givin person B cash is
zero-cost untraceable transaction.
Oh, but it's not.
It can be, depends on the
On Sun, 12 May 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
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At 8:31 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not want
third
Morlock Elloi wrote:
Mental constructs like this one, complicated schemes that require knowledge of
modular aritmetic to understand, is why this will not happen.
Whatever aspires to replace paper cash for purposes where paper cash is a must
(in real life, conferences don't count) has to be
On Sun, 12 May 2002, Sandy Harris wrote:
Why do you imagine that?
Paranoia and trust I'd imagine.
Those guys don't understand the technologies behind paper money -- engraving,
paper making, holography, ... -- or behind bank accounts and ATM machines,
and they likely don't have credible
R. A. Hettinga wrote:
At 6:03 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Eric Cordian wrote:
The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place
is because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the
United States.
What are the margins on consumer debt? Isn't it
all securitized,
--
People don't actually have to understand it as long as they
get paid, of course. People who are getting paid want to get
paid as cheaply as possible, ceterus parabus, and so any
payment mechanism's
On 12 May 2002 at 1:31, Morlock Elloi wrote:
At which point do you fail to
Jim Choate [EMAIL PROTECTED] gave us the benefit of the following
opinion:
It makes no sense to talk about 'cheapness of payment' from the
recipients
view. It costs them nothing to get paid (outside of whatever service
or
labor was involved in the exchange). You have your cognates reversed
--
James A. Donald:
Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not
want third parties to be able to prove he paid Betty.
Morlock Elloi wrote:
Mental constructs like this one, complicated schemes that
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Hash: SHA1
At 1:31 AM -0700 on 5/12/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
People don't actually have to understand it as long as they get
paid, of course. People who are getting paid want to get paid as
cheaply as possible, ceterus parabus, and so any payment
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
At 1:19 AM -0700 on 5/12/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Oh, but it's not. Try to carry around a good merchant's daily
receipts in cash every day, see how much you end up paying for
guys in armored cars instead.
Wrong analogy. I don't care about 1:M
On Sat, 11 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not want
third parties to be able to prove he paid Betty.
Who is Andy going to 'prove' it to then, other than Betty? And
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Hash: SHA1
At 6:55 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Also let's not forget that person A givin person B cash is
zero-cost untraceable transaction.
Oh, but it's not. Try to carry around a good merchant's daily
receipts in cash every day, see how
Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not want
third parties to be able to prove he paid Betty.
Mental constructs like this one, complicated schemes that require knowledge of
modular aritmetic to understand, is
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
At 6:03 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Eric Cordian wrote:
The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place
is because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the
United States.
I really wonder what component of this market is
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
At 8:47 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Flipping bits in the gates or on the wire is not that - unless Joe
the Hitman or Gordon the Dealer or Jeff the Cleaner can well
understand it and in addition to that have implementor's balls
--
On 11 May 2002 at 18:55, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Also let's not forget that person A givin person B cash is
zero-cost untraceable transaction.
Sometimes, for example internet pornography, it is hard for Andy
to give Betty cash.
Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
At 8:31 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not want
third parties to be able to prove he paid Betty.
One of the
People don't actually have to understand it as long as they get paid,
of course. People who are getting paid want to get paid as cheaply
as possible, ceterus parabus, and so any payment mechanism's
At which point do you fail to understand that people who *need* anon,
untraceable transactions
On Sun, 12 May 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
At 8:31 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not want
third
R. A. Hettinga wrote:
At 6:03 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Eric Cordian wrote:
The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place
is because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the
United States.
What are the margins on consumer debt? Isn't it
all securitized,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
At 1:31 AM -0700 on 5/12/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
People don't actually have to understand it as long as they get
paid, of course. People who are getting paid want to get paid as
cheaply as possible, ceterus parabus, and so any payment
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
At 1:19 AM -0700 on 5/12/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Oh, but it's not. Try to carry around a good merchant's daily
receipts in cash every day, see how much you end up paying for
guys in armored cars instead.
Wrong analogy. I don't care about 1:M
Their loss, I suppose. I frankly don't give a tinker's damn about
what a bunch of erst-feudal atavists want. Sooner or later, if it's
cheap enough to use, *everyone* will use a given technology, or go
live in a cave by choice -- until their kids want a better life. You
You're just being
Jim Choate [EMAIL PROTECTED] gave us the benefit of the following
opinion:
It makes no sense to talk about 'cheapness of payment' from the
recipients
view. It costs them nothing to get paid (outside of whatever service
or
labor was involved in the exchange). You have your cognates reversed
On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:20:32PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
And most of the sheeple _like_ it. They'd rather be safe than free. For
every complaint I've heard about having to reassure the bank that the
card wasn't stolen, I've heard a couple dozen praises for the wonderful
safe system that
At 08:23 PM 5/11/2002 -0400, you wrote:
On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:20:32PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
And most of the sheeple _like_ it. They'd rather be safe than free. For
every complaint I've heard about having to reassure the bank that the
card wasn't stolen, I've heard a couple dozen
Declan opines:
I'm a bit late here, but let me rise to the defense of profiling of this
sort. The reason we have interest rates on credit cards which are not
far higher than they are now and have ready availability of credit in the
first place (not to mention credit cards being accepted
The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place is
because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the United
States.
Good point.
Is there an entity with deep pockets that would find it profitable to develop
and deploy near-zero-cost (crypto blah blah)
--
On 11 May 2002 at 18:55, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Also let's not forget that person A givin person B cash is
zero-cost untraceable transaction.
Sometimes, for example internet pornography, it is hard for Andy
to give Betty cash.
Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
On Sat, 11 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not want
third parties to be able to prove he paid Betty.
Who is Andy going to 'prove' it to then, other than Betty? And
Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not want
third parties to be able to prove he paid Betty.
Mental constructs like this one, complicated schemes that require knowledge of
modular aritmetic to understand, is
On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:20:32PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
And most of the sheeple _like_ it. They'd rather be safe than free. For
every complaint I've heard about having to reassure the bank that the
card wasn't stolen, I've heard a couple dozen praises for the wonderful
safe system that
Daniel J. Boone wrote:
Don't forget, they arrested the guy who bought a truckload of candy at
Costco just before Halloween
If you're talking about the New Jersey man, he was (a) not Arabic (b)
not a terrorist and (c) a candy wholesaler. He just wanted to turn a
profit by making little
Tim May wrote:
On Tuesday, April 30, 2002, at 12:55 PM, Michael Motyka wrote:
His credit card usage sometimes flips the stolen card bit
But you make a good point, that the net to snare bad guys is snaring
vastly more ordinary people.
And most of the sheeple _like_ it. They'd rather be
On Tuesday, April 30, 2002, at 02:29 PM, Daniel J. Boone wrote:
From: Michael Motyka [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I remember that in the weeks post 9-11 Safeway or one of the other
grocery store chains offered to profile customers. What are they
going
to do? Question everyone who buys olive oil,
Note: I wrote the following item to Dave Molnar, as part of our off-line
conversation. I ended up summing-up a bunch of points I wanted to put
out to the list, and Dave has given me permission to include his
remarks. A few places refer to you...this is why.
On Monday, April 29, 2002, at 09:06
Note: I wrote the following item to Dave Molnar, as part of our off-line
conversation. I ended up summing-up a bunch of points I wanted to put
out to the list, and Dave has given me permission to include his
remarks. A few places refer to you...this is why.
On Monday, April 29, 2002, at 09:06
Note: I wrote the following item to Dave Molnar, as part of our off-line
conversation. I ended up summing-up a bunch of points I wanted to put
out to the list, and Dave has given me permission to include his
remarks. A few places refer to you...this is why.
On Monday, April 29, 2002, at 09:06
On 29 Apr 2002 at 12:29, Tim May wrote:
The deep error which has been with us for a long time is the assumption
that we can create legal systems or surveillance systems which go after
bad guys but not good guys. That is, that we can separate bad guys
like Mohammed Atta from good guys, all
As a simple illustration of the inability to separate the Good Guys
from the Bad Guys I use my experiences with my Visa card company. I
use the damn thing to buy gas a few times a week and every so often I'll
use it for a big ticket item like a PC or a Spa for example. At which
time I generally
On Tuesday, April 30, 2002, at 12:55 PM, Michael Motyka wrote:
As a simple illustration of the inability to separate the Good Guys
from the Bad Guys I use my experiences with my Visa card company. I
use the damn thing to buy gas a few times a week and every so often I'll
use it for a big
From: Michael Motyka [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I remember that in the weeks post 9-11 Safeway or one of the other
grocery store chains offered to profile customers. What are they
going
to do? Question everyone who buys olive oil, chick peas, garlic and
sesame paste?
Don't forget, they arrested the
On Tuesday, April 30, 2002, at 02:29 PM, Daniel J. Boone wrote:
From: Michael Motyka [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I remember that in the weeks post 9-11 Safeway or one of the other
grocery store chains offered to profile customers. What are they
going
to do? Question everyone who buys olive oil,
Daniel J. Boone wrote:
Don't forget, they arrested the guy who bought a truckload of candy at
Costco just before Halloween
If you're talking about the New Jersey man, he was (a) not Arabic (b)
not a terrorist and (c) a candy wholesaler. He just wanted to turn a
profit by making little
Tim May wrote:
On Tuesday, April 30, 2002, at 12:55 PM, Michael Motyka wrote:
His credit card usage sometimes flips the stolen card bit
But you make a good point, that the net to snare bad guys is snaring
vastly more ordinary people.
And most of the sheeple _like_ it. They'd rather be
As a simple illustration of the inability to separate the Good Guys
from the Bad Guys I use my experiences with my Visa card company. I
use the damn thing to buy gas a few times a week and every so often I'll
use it for a big ticket item like a PC or a Spa for example. At which
time I generally
Note: I wrote the following item to Dave Molnar, as part of our off-line
conversation. I ended up summing-up a bunch of points I wanted to put
out to the list, and Dave has given me permission to include his
remarks. A few places refer to you...this is why.
On Monday, April 29, 2002, at 09:06
On 29 Apr 2002 at 12:29, Tim May wrote:
The deep error which has been with us for a long time is the assumption
that we can create legal systems or surveillance systems which go after
bad guys but not good guys. That is, that we can separate bad guys
like Mohammed Atta from good guys, all
Note: I wrote the following item to Dave Molnar, as part of our off-line
conversation. I ended up summing-up a bunch of points I wanted to put
out to the list, and Dave has given me permission to include his
remarks. A few places refer to you...this is why.
On Monday, April 29, 2002, at 09:06
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