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THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] ________________________________________________________________ Rosh Hashanah 019: Emes and Sheker Jacob Siegel asked: The gemara discusses the concept of meaymim lkadesh, that we "intimidate" witnesses to say that they saw the new moon in order to be able to be koivea the chodesh "on time." How are we to understand this concept, given the importance of Truth in Torah thought (e.g., Chosamo Shel HKBH Emes) and particularly when it comes to eidus sheker!! Artscroll quotes R. Chananel that this is only talking about eidim that are not sure whether they saw or not and we are meayem so that they err on the side of kevius hachodesh. Even this explanation is dochuk, a) even to "intimidate" an eid how to testify is seemingly sheker and b) the loshon hagemara explicitly states "to say they saw it WHEN THEY DID NOT SEE IT - aF aL pI sHELO RAOOHOO" IT BECOMES HARDER TO UNDERSTAND ON AMUD BEIS WHEN THE GEMARA PRESENTS AN ARGUMENT THAT WE ONLY "INTIMIDATE" IN A CASE WHERE IT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE SHEKER. At the expense of sounding glib, allow me to say that the sevara of "mechzi kshikra" sounds alot like "as long as you will not get caught." I thought to say that the sevara is that Bais Din is concerned that others will learn to be meshaker so they are careful to only be meayem when it is not readily apparent that there is something "fishy" going on, but even that does not explain how this process works. What is the pshat? Jacob Siegel, Miami, USA ---------------------------------------------- The Kollel replies: Rabeinu Chananel explains that witnesses who are sure of what they saw but would normally be rejected by Beis Din are instead reinforced by Beis Din. This is because Beis Din is certain the calculation is correct, and can therefore say with certainty that the witnesses' claim to have seen the moon is correct even though the witnesses are not testifying in a normally acceptable fashion. In this context, Me'aymin does not mean "threaten" but rather "reinforce" (see Pnei Yehoshua). "Af Al Pi Shelo Ra'uhu" means even though we know their testimony translates into them not having seen the moon, because of our knowledge of the calendar we reinforce their words even though they may not have actually seen it. Alternatively, the Pnei Yehoshua seems to learn according to the Rambam (Hilchos Kidush ha'Chodesh 3:19) that Me'aymin is a matter of not accepting witnesses who want to make the first set of witnesses into Eidim Zomimim or to contradict their testimony. We lock them out of Beis Din, similar to not accepting witnesses Min ha'Minchah ul'Lemalah (regarding Rosh Hashanah, see 30b). All the best, Yaakov Montrose >>><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<< The *D*AFYOMI *A*DVANCEMENT *F*ORUM, brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf Write to us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit us at http://www.dafyomi.co.il Fax(US):(206) 202-0323; Fax(Isr): (02) 591-6024; Tel(Isr): (02) 651-5004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.27/602 - Release Date: 12/25/2006 _______________________________________________ Daf-discuss mailing list Daf-discuss@shemayisrael.co.il http://mailman.shemayisrael.com/mailman/listinfo/daf-discuss_shemayisrael.co.il