Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Aug 31 2015, Sam Hartman wrote: > OK. > I'd really appreciate hearing from anyone now who needs more time before > a CFV. Please don't forget that if anyone needs more time, they can always vote FD. Best, -Nikolaus -- GPG encrypted emails preferred. Key id:

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Sam Hartman writes: > I ask you to retain the following two paragraphs that explain why we > prefer option D should we adopt this: >The Technical Committee has reviewed the underlying technical >issues around this question and has resolved that Debian will be >

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

> "Keith" == Keith Packard writes: Keith> Do you think the reworded version is easier to understand in Keith> the context of the overall process? That was my major concern Keith> here. I think a bit. My big question is whether you think we'd still be able to

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Sam Hartman writes: > I think a bit. > My big question is whether you think we'd still be able to call for a > vote tomorrow if we make this change. I think the change has real benefit beyond simple clarification by immediately adopting Charles' changes to policy without

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

OK. I'd really appreciate hearing from anyone now who needs more time before a CFV.

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Sam Hartman writes: > OK. > I'd really appreciate hearing from anyone now who needs more time before > a CFV. I'd also love to hear back from Charles about the updated D proposal, and whether that helps him understand what it means. -- -keith signature.asc Description:

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Le Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 01:57:21PM -0700, Keith Packard a écrit : > Sam Hartman writes: > > > OK. > > I'd really appreciate hearing from anyone now who needs more time before > > a CFV. > > I'd also love to hear back from Charles about the updated D proposal, > and whether

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Le dimanche, 30 août 2015, 22.01:27 Keith Packard a écrit : > Thinking about this tonight, I've rewritten option D as AB + patch. > > As you can see, this makes packages shipping menu and .desktop files > for the same application buggy, makes all packages using the Debian > Menu System buggy, and

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Le Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 10:01:27PM -0700, Keith Packard a écrit : > > Thinking about this tonight, I've rewritten option D as AB + patch. > OPTION D': > > Using its power under §6.1.1 to decide on any matter of technical > policy, and its power under §6.1.5 to offer advice: > >1. The

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

> "Keith" == Keith Packard writes: Keith> Thinking about this tonight, I've rewritten option D as AB + Keith> patch. Keith> As you can see, this makes packages shipping menu and Keith> .desktop files for the same application buggy, makes all Keith>

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Steve == Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org writes: Steve On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 09:13:33AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: If we adopt Keith's proposal without updating policy 9.6--we retainIs the SHOULD have menu entries for all command line apps, but move the metadata format to

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 20:00:55 -0700 Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org wrote: On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 09:13:33AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: If we adopt Keith's proposal without updating policy 9.6--we retainIs the SHOULD have menu entries for all command line apps, but move the metadata format

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org writes: 741573_menu_systems/keithp_draft.txt includes further guidance regarding the technical details of how to map between the menu system and .desktop files. Since this is not on the ballot itself, how do we intend to surface this so that it can be useful

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org writes: Thanks. I would appreciate if it would be acknowledged, I am a bit academic by training... The proposed ballot tries to clarify the difference between D and AB by noting: 6. The policy change by Charles Plessy in ba679bff76[1] would comply

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Friday 28 August 2015 19:58:02 Matthew Vernon wrote: That's not much comfort to folk like me who use the trad menu (I'm an FVWM user) - you're proposing getting rid of something that currently works, and leaving nothing to replace it with. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xdg-menu

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 05:18:06PM -0700, Keith Packard wrote: * Overall, this would make it possible, therefore, to maintain the menu information primarily in the more sophisticated .desktop format, so that source packages with .desktop files would not need to contain trad menu

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 09:13:33AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: If we adopt Keith's proposal without updating policy 9.6--we retainIs the SHOULD have menu entries for all command line apps, but move the metadata format to .desktop, we have a number of problems. We have no way to express the

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes (Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question): Right. But the 'trad Debian menu' (as outlined in Policy §9.6) has never reached the point where applications that need not be passed any special command line arguments for normal operation

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Sam Hartman writes (Re: Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question): Ian, I'd like to encourage you to use less loaded words than destroy. I can see why you are objecting but I'm afraid I cannot see these proposals any other way. Perhaps as you suggest it would

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Sam Hartman writes (Re: Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question): I'd appreciate it if you would look at the restatement at the bottom and help me make sure I'm understanding the technical implications of the proposal we're considering. ... That doesn't make

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Ian, I'd like to encourage you to use less loaded words than destroy. When I hear that term and disagree with your analysis, my emotional reaction is strong enough that I stop reading. Your term is loaded enough that you lose the opportunity to try and get me to think about whether you are right.

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Ian == Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes: Hi. I'd appreciate it if you would look at the restatement at the bottom and help me make sure I'm understanding the technical implications of the proposal we're considering. I think I may be following what Ian's saying. Ian I

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Josselin Mouette wrote: Maybe some people need to get rid of that mentality where other people have to do more work to comply with their twisted view of reality. Calling someone else's viewpoint twisted is needlessly inflammatory and not acceptable when discussing bugs

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

I realise that it was perhaps a tactical error to send both (a) a message with impassioned rhetoric and (b) a message containing constructive proposal. Let me repost the proposal with some extra commentary: Ian Jackson writes: I had an interesting and helpful conversation with a member of the

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk wrote: - defining new field names for .desktop files to contain the trad menu metadata, as necessary. I think we can safely call these fields X-Debian-* or X-Debian-Menu-* or something. What is the use case for these fields? - a small

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Le vendredi, 28 août 2015, 13.51:52 Ian Jackson a écrit : Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes: Keith's proposal doesn't imply that the trad menu would be destroyed (your words), It does. There is nothing in Keith's proposal which preserves the existing trad menu metadata. According to `apt-file

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Friday 28 August 2015 16:06:45 Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: [snip] I think apparmor is a fine example: the maintainers of apparmor do maintain the apparmor-profiles package which collects apparmor profiles for packages that don't ship them (or that ship outdated or broken ones). This gives

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Friday 28 August 2015 13:27:54 you wrote: On Friday 28 August 2015 16:06:45 Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: [snip] I think apparmor is a fine example: the maintainers of apparmor do maintain the apparmor-profiles package which collects apparmor profiles for packages that don't ship them

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Thursday 27 August 2015 18:11:56 Ian Jackson wrote: So the real dispute is: should the existing application metadata database (currently represented by the Debian trad menu files in existing packages): (a) continue to be maintained in its existing file format (b) be translated to a

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On 28/08/15 19:22, Sune Vuorela wrote: On Thursday 27 August 2015 18:11:56 Ian Jackson wrote: (c) be destroyed. Given that there are people who want to maintain it, I think (c) is unacceptable.[1] Unfortunately, the people who wants to maintain it are not the same people who has to carry

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes: * Overall, this would make it possible, therefore, to maintain the menu information primarily in the more sophisticated .desktop format, so that source packages with .desktop files would not need to contain trad menu files too.

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Responding mostly to Keith's draft from debian-ctte.git. The Whereas leaves out a very important aspect of this. It is not sufficient to simply decide on the file format. The primary dispute here is not really about file formats. The trad Debian menu is primarily curated collection of

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

I had an interesting and helpful conversation with a member of the KDE team at Debconf. They made an interesting proposal: * We have machinery that can produce trad menu files from desktop files. * It is possible to have extension information in extra fields in a .desktop file. This

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Le jeudi, 27 août 2015, 18.11:56 Ian Jackson a écrit : The trad Debian menu, and the XDG menu files as found in existing desktop applications, do not agree on either (i) the scope of the menu Right. But the 'trad Debian menu' (as outlined in Policy §9.6) has never reached the point where

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Don == Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes: While we're not overturning anything in the sense of an override here, I think we owe an explanation for our actions, and I feel really strongly about that. Don Ideally the patch and its rationale should stand alone without Don

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Wednesday 19 August 2015 10:57:43 Sam Hartman wrote: Don == Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes: While we're not overturning anything in the sense of an override here, I think we owe an explanation for our actions, and I feel really strongly about that. Don Ideally

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Le mardi, 18 août 2015, 14.01:27 Don Armstrong a écrit : On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, Sam Hartman wrote: Don == Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes: Don On Sun, 16 Aug 2015, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: What about just adding Keith's proposal to the ballot, and let the

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, Sam Hartman wrote: Don == Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes: Don On Sun, 16 Aug 2015, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: What about just adding Keith's proposal to the ballot, and let the Condorcet magic act? Don This has sort of been my plan; I just

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Le Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 06:14:45PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit : Hi Charles, and thanks for your feedback, Thanks as well for your prompt answer :) Here are a few point-to-point comments. Altogether, I would happily support option D if it were further amended. the last sentence of

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Don == Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes: Don On Sun, 16 Aug 2015, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: What about just adding Keith's proposal to the ballot, and let the Condorcet magic act? Don This has sort of been my plan; I just have not had enough spare Don cycles in the

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Hi Charles, and thanks for your feedback, Le lundi, 17 août 2015, 21.25:59 Charles Plessy a écrit : I think that option D has two fundamental flaws and I would like to recommend the TC against voting for it. * First, if it is voted, nothing will happen. If the TC adopts option D, and if

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Le Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 05:54:50PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit : 3. We recommend that the maintainers of the 'menu' package update that package to reflect this increased focus on .desktop files by modifying the 'menu' package to use .desktop files for the source

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Le mercredi, 29 juillet 2015, 10.29:10 Don Armstrong a écrit : On Wed, 29 Jul 2015, Sam Hartman wrote: Unless someone objects I propose that the following text also be included in option b: Using its power under §6.1.5 to offer advice: 1. The Technical Committee suggests that the

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Sun, 16 Aug 2015, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: What about just adding Keith's proposal to the ballot, and let the Condorcet magic act? This has sort of been my plan; I just have not had enough spare cycles in the past few weeks (grant deadlines) to have the time necessary to work through

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

Unless someone objects I propose that the following text also be included in option b: Using its power under §6.1.5 to offer advice: 1. The Technical Committee suggests that the maintainers of the Debian menu package support translating .desktop files of packages which do not

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015, Sam Hartman wrote: Unless someone objects I propose that the following text also be included in option b: Using its power under §6.1.5 to offer advice: 1. The Technical Committee suggests that the maintainers of the Debian menu package support translating

Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve menu/desktop question

I'm proposing the following draft ballot to resolve the menu/desktop question. This draft is available in git; feel free to make specific changes there and announce them to the bug. If there is no discussion or substantial changes to this draft, I will call for votes around Monday the 3rd of