On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 03:30:49PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
This is the same reason we are using shared libraries and the Debian
Security Team is doing it's best to track code copies.
Consider /etc/init.d/skeleton a library then. It's sources to
any /etc/init.d script
Hmm. Let's comment that for people newer to scripting than I am.
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 6:28 AM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote:
[...]
Daemontools runscripts are incredibly simple shellscripts, that I'm
sure you could write no sweat except in very wierd edge cases. Here's
my run
On Du, 12 oct 14, 01:41:34, Reco wrote:
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 23:02:01 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 23:20:34, Reco wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 20:47:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
At least with systemd if
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:06:11 +0900
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
Hmm. Let's comment that for people newer to scripting than I am.
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 6:28 AM, Steve Litt
sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote:
### RUN THE DAEMON ###
exec envuidgid slitt envdir ./env
On Vi, 10 oct 14, 08:36:23, Joel Rees wrote:
Some complexities you can encapsulate or hide, or expose in an
organized manner so that that are easier to deal with. Others, no.
[big snip]
The complexity argument can be used both ways:
- the Unix way (do one thing and do it well) leads to many
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:18:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 10 oct 14, 08:36:23, Joel Rees wrote:
Some complexities you can encapsulate or hide, or expose in an
organized manner so that that are easier to deal with. Others, no.
[big snip]
The
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:18:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 10 oct 14, 08:36:23, Joel Rees wrote:
Some complexities you can encapsulate or hide, or expose in an
organized manner so that that are easier to deal with. Others, no.
[big snip]
The complexity
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 19:57:42, Reco wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:18:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 10 oct 14, 08:36:23, Joel Rees wrote:
Some complexities you can encapsulate or hide, or expose in an
organized manner so that that are easier to deal
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 13:40:08, Steve Litt wrote:
sysvinit is an idea whose time has gone. sysvinit is a poor way to
showcase the Unix Way. First of all, the whole idea of runlevels is
bizarre, and adds a lot of complexity to init scripts. If you
compare a daemontools /service/myserviced/run to
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 20:47:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 19:57:42, Reco wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:18:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 10 oct 14, 08:36:23, Joel Rees wrote:
Some complexities you
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 23:20:34, Reco wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 20:47:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
At least with systemd if you fix a bug it will benefit all daemons using
it.
No, quite the contrary. By fixing such jack-of-all-trades
libsystemd library you're
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 21:21:14 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 13:40:08, Steve Litt wrote:
sysvinit is an idea whose time has gone. sysvinit is a poor way to
showcase the Unix Way. First of all, the whole idea of runlevels is
bizarre, and adds a lot
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 23:20:34 +0400
Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 20:47:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
[huge snip]
No, that was just for the I'm sole user of this system, why would
I need this logind stuff? crowd.
Thanks, I'm
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 23:02:01 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 23:20:34, Reco wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 20:47:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
At least with systemd if you fix a bug it will benefit all daemons using
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 17:35:00 -0400
Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 23:20:34 +0400
Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 20:47:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
[huge snip]
No, that was just for
2014/10/09 10:58 lee l...@yagibdah.de:
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
2014/09/25 9:15 lee l...@yun.yagibdah.de:
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
Hmm. So linkage is a result of complexity,
What is complexity?
Complexity is not a simple topic. :-\
Indeed. And one
On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 21:27:30 +0900
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
Complexity is not a simple topic. :-\
Can I quote you on that?
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
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On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 08:36:23 +0900
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
Indeed. And one of the problems with computers is that people want to
believe that computers can make complexities go away.
Some complexities you can encapsulate or hide, or expose in an
organized manner so that that
2014/10/10 8:47 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com:
On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 21:27:30 +0900
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
Complexity is not a simple topic. :-\
Can I quote you on that?
Heh.
I was quoting several teachers and co-workers, I don't know if anyone has
figured out who said
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
2014/09/25 9:15 lee l...@yun.yagibdah.de:
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
Hmm. So linkage is a result of complexity,
What is complexity?
Complexity is not a simple topic. :-\
and implicity is a result of
undeclaredness (or unawareness of
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 08:22:05AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote:
You're wrong here. Cgroups are just glorified Linux-specific shell
limits. There's nothing in them that requires usage of s*stemd or dbus.
I think you are saying
2014/09/25 9:15 lee l...@yun.yagibdah.de:
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 7:16 AM, lee l...@yun.yagibdah.de wrote:
I could guess that implicit linkage might refer to side effects of
intentional entanglement which may be undesirable or may occur without
On Jo, 25 sep 14, 21:27:30, Joel Rees wrote:
There is always that possibility. It's one of the reasons for the old
adage, If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen
Kind regards,
Andrei
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Offtopic discussions among Debian
On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 5:34 AM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 25 sep 14, 21:27:30, Joel Rees wrote:
There is always that possibility. It's one of the reasons for the old
adage, If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen
Sigh.
Andrei, I
On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 23:34:41 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jo, 25 sep 14, 21:27:30, Joel Rees wrote:
There is always that possibility. It's one of the reasons for the
old adage, If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen
Kaizen means
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 7:16 AM, lee l...@yun.yagibdah.de wrote:
I could guess that implicit linkage might refer to side effects of
intentional entanglement which may be undesirable or may occur without
being noticed (until a problem shows up which then
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 08:22:05AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
* Get rid of run levels.
And the reason for this change is? Runlevels are good where they are,
even if you don't use them.
Well, openbsd doesn't have runlevels, and it gets along just fine.
openbsd does have some things that
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 09:56:43PM +0400, Reco wrote:
In the light of the current discussion, this seems particulary fitting:
Social human behaviour experts
There is no such thing, not at least by that name. Anthropologists
spring to mind, but I think you don't mean it in that sense.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512
On 09/22/2014 at 10:21 AM, Chris Bannister wrote:
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 09:56:43PM +0400, Reco wrote:
In the light of the current discussion, this seems particulary
fitting:
Social human behaviour experts
There is no such thing, not
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 10:35:59AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
2014/09/22 5:21 Ansgar Burchardt ans...@43-1.org:
Hi Joel,
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
(6) systemd and cgroups (at minimum) end up overriding the permissions
system. It's bad enough having SELinux and ACLs brought
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 02:21:01AM +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 09:56:43PM +0400, Reco wrote:
In the light of the current discussion, this seems particulary fitting:
Social human behaviour experts
There is no such thing, not at least by that name.
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi.
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 09:12:38 +0900
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
I will acknowledge that there are some things that we could do to
improve the current (sysv) init in debian.
* Get rid of run levels.
And the
On 23/09/14 00:22, Joel Rees wrote:
I think you are saying that there is an implementation of cgroups
independent of systemd?
systemd does not implement cgroups. The kernel implements them; systemd
just uses them.
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On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk wrote:
On 23/09/14 00:22, Joel Rees wrote:
I think you are saying that there is an implementation of cgroups
independent of systemd?
systemd does not implement cgroups. The kernel implements them; systemd just
uses them.
Does
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
(2) When I was a college student, when we talked about modularity, we
talked about something called implicit linkage. I don't know what
the current term for it is, but it is the generalized problem of
global constants, variables, protocols, and design
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 7:16 AM, lee l...@yun.yagibdah.de wrote:
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
(2) When I was a college student, when we talked about modularity, we
talked about something called implicit linkage. I don't know what
the current term for it is, but it is the generalized
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 11:27 PM, Chris Bannister
cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote:
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 10:35:59AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
2014/09/22 5:21 Ansgar Burchardt ans...@43-1.org:
Hi Joel,
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
(6) systemd and cgroups (at minimum) end up
Thank you, Don. It needed saying, and you said it well!
Cheers,
Terence
On 21 September 2014 06:12, Don Armstrong d...@debian.org wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be
On 9/21/2014 1:12 AM, Don Armstrong wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in
Jessie.
You can start by reading why I voted for systemd:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:12:51 -0700
Don Armstrong d...@debian.org wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in
Jessie.
You can start by reading why I
Ahoj,
Dňa Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:12:51 -0700 Don Armstrong d...@debian.org
napísal:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in
Jessie.
You can start by reading
On Du, 21 sep 14, 18:47:46, Slavko wrote:
Dňa Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:12:51 -0700 Don Armstrong d...@debian.org
napísal:
Debian's website, installer, and many parts of the software that
Debian provides are all translated. See
https://www.debian.org/international/l10n/ for example.
Are
Hi.
On Sun, 21 Sep 2014 18:47:46 +0200
Slavko li...@slavino.sk wrote:
Try to help by providing translations, and you'll find it's
impossible because there's nowhere and no one to offer such service.
Debian's website, installer, and many parts of the software that
Debian provides
2014/09/21 14:13 Don Armstrong d...@debian.org:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in
Jessie.
You can start by reading why I voted for systemd:
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 10:12:51PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in
Jessie.
You can start by reading why I voted for
Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
What I don't understand is that criticism and other forms of speaking
up cannot be considered as a form of contribution.
Constructive criticism is often a useful contribution. Destructive
criticism, much less so.
Disagree all you want, but don't malign
Hi Joel,
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
(6) systemd and cgroups (at minimum) end up overriding the permissions
system. It's bad enough having SELinux and ACLs brought in to knock
holes in the permissions system, but when arbitrary non-kernel system
functions start getting their hands
On 09/21/2014 01:12 AM, Don Armstrong wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in
Jessie.
You can start by reading why I voted for systemd:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that one of the developers
replied to me off-list something like the following, as if to help me
unpack some of what I wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Joel Rees wrote:
What problem were you trying to solve when you decided there had to be a
switch?
--
2014/09/22 5:21 Ansgar Burchardt ans...@43-1.org:
Hi Joel,
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
(6) systemd and cgroups (at minimum) end up overriding the permissions
system. It's bad enough having SELinux and ACLs brought in to knock
holes in the permissions system, but when arbitrary
Hi.
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 09:12:38 +0900
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
I will acknowledge that there are some things that we could do to
improve the current (sysv) init in debian.
* Get rid of run levels.
And the reason for this change is? Runlevels are good where they are,
even if
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Then please explain to us why, with all of the negative technical
aspects surrounding systemd, it looks to be the default init in
Jessie.
You can start by reading why I voted for systemd:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708#3661
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