On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 10:14:17PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 22:53:36, Joel Rees wrote:
If you can't deal with it, snip it?
I don't think it brings anything useful to a discussion on -user.
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 12:00:52PM -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On 11/15/2014 08:35 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
At the same time, most debian users likely do not really care about
transition
plan and systemd. It was widely published everywhere in March and yet, no
one would have cared if this
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 08:29:28PM -0500, Marty wrote:
On 11/16/2014 03:32 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:05:08PM -0500, Marty wrote:
snip
My point is that in a modular design nothing should be so entrenched
as to be irreplaceable. Absence of an alternate should not
Le 16/11/2014 02:13, Ludovic Meyer a écrit :
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 10:05:49PM +0100, Erwan David wrote:
Le 15/11/2014 20:24, Brian a écrit :
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 11:37:14 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 04:09:52PM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
On 11/16/2014 at 02:51 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:28:35PM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
[about the Linux kernel developers]
They do, however, maintain their external interfaces - rigidly so,
sometimes
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 08:44:06AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
One thing at a time.
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:23 AM, Ludovic Meyer ludo.v.me...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
Your definition of mainstream is strange.
What's strange about it? Do I need to provide a link to the dictionary
for you
On 11/17/2014 01:54 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 08:29:28PM -0500, Marty wrote:
On 11/16/2014 03:32 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:05:08PM -0500, Marty wrote:
snip
My point is that in a modular design nothing should be so entrenched
as to be
Le Sat, 15 Nov 2014 20:21:49 -0500,
Marty mar...@ix.netcom.com a écrit :
On 11/15/2014 06:49 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
[...]
At least some of people rejecting systemd demand that it be removed
completely, including libsystemd. How is it pro-choice to forbid me
from being able to use a
I have been informed off-list that some might misinterpret something I
wrote here, so I will attempt to clarify a few things.
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:59 AM, Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote:
On 11/12/2014 5:18 PM,
On Sb, 15 nov 14, 11:37:14, Miles Fidelman wrote:
For some (many?) of us, systemd represents no gain, and significant
operational impact (time required to deal with changes).
Have you considered, just for a fraction of a second, that a migration
to systemd, however painful it may prove,
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Sb, 15 nov 14, 11:37:14, Miles Fidelman wrote:
For some (many?) of us, systemd represents no gain, and significant
operational impact (time required to deal with changes).
Have you considered, just for a fraction of a second, that a migration
to systemd, however
On Du, 16 nov 14, 10:18:24, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Let me also turn the question back at you:
Have you considered, just for a fraction of a second, that a migration
to systemd, could, in fact, make some systems LESS reliable and
understandable?
Sure I did. systemd is not bug-free and it's
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 09:43:23PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
I have been informed off-list that some might misinterpret something I
wrote here, so I will attempt to clarify a few things.
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:59 AM, Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:04 PM,
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Du, 16 nov 14, 10:18:24, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Let me also turn the question back at you:
Have you considered, just for a fraction of a second, that a migration
to systemd, could, in fact, make some systems LESS reliable and understandable?
Sure I did. systemd is not
On 11/15/2014 08:35 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
At the same time, most debian users likely do not really care about transition
plan and systemd. It was widely published everywhere in March and yet, no one
would have cared if this
mattered ?
I installed systemd to Jessie as soon as it was
On 11/16/2014 05:26 AM, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
Le Sat, 15 Nov 2014 20:21:49 -0500,
Marty mar...@ix.netcom.com a écrit :
On 11/15/2014 06:49 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
[...]
At least some of people rejecting systemd demand that it be removed
completely, including libsystemd. How is it
On 11/16/2014 at 11:23 AM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 09:43:23PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
I have been informed off-list that some might misinterpret
something I wrote here, so I will attempt to clarify a few things.
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:59 AM, Joel Rees
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:28:35PM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
On 11/16/2014 at 11:23 AM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 09:43:23PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
I have been informed off-list that some might misinterpret
something I wrote here, so I will attempt to clarify a few
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:05:08PM -0500, Marty wrote:
On 11/16/2014 05:26 AM, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
Le Sat, 15 Nov 2014 20:21:49 -0500,
Marty mar...@ix.netcom.com a écrit :
On 11/15/2014 06:49 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
[...]
At least some of people rejecting systemd demand that it
On 11/16/2014 at 02:51 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:28:35PM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
[about the Linux kernel developers]
They do, however, maintain their external interfaces - rigidly so,
sometimes to what others might call the point of insanity. An
intentionally
One thing at a time.
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:23 AM, Ludovic Meyer ludo.v.me...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
Your definition of mainstream is strange.
What's strange about it? Do I need to provide a link to the dictionary
for you for that? I assume not.
Given a community, there is a mainstream
On 11/16/2014 03:32 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:05:08PM -0500, Marty wrote:
snip
My point is that in a modular design nothing should be so entrenched
as to be irreplaceable. Absence of an alternate should not normally
indicate impossibility of an alternate, but some
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 13:27:22, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote:
And all this says nothing about big servers, which need some
magnitudes more of reliability, stability and scaling. E.g. not using
plain text files for logs causes problems in the long run and in daily
work.
The default setting for
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
On 11/14/2014 05:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
snip
Jumping in here as myself, not Joel's tag-team member. :)
Debian as an entity doesn't really do much. There are only one or
several volunteers who
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 22:53:36, Joel Rees wrote:
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
[...]
[snip another wall of text about engineering principles]
And, thus, once again,
The engineering question
On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 13:49:18 +0200
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
In my opinion the best defence against a monopoly[1] of any kind is to
develop competitive alternatives.
We have seen how well that worked with MS Windows over the years...
Cheers,
Ron.
--
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It duplicates
equivalent modular alternatives, and also requires unnecessary effort to
repair damage from excessive
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:55:47, Tanstaafl wrote:
On 11/14/2014 5:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
It was claimed that sysvinit was the default *and only* (emphasis not
mine) init, and therefore no selection was needed, but now that there
are several a selection suddenly
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 9:20 PM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
[(clipping too much, I now realize)]
The transition plan[5] has been posted on -devel since July with no
objections.
[5] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/07/msg00611.html
My impression is that
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 22:53:36, Joel Rees wrote:
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
[...]
[snip another wall of text about
On 15-11-2014 14:17, Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It duplicates
equivalent modular alternatives, and also requires unnecessary effort to
repair
On Sb, 15 nov 14, 22:05:58, Joel Rees wrote:
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 9:20 PM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
[(clipping too much, I now realize)]
The transition plan[5] has been posted on -devel since July with no
objections.
[5]
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 15:22:06 +0200, Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis wrote:
On 15-11-2014 14:17, Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It
duplicates
2014/11/15 22:57 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com:
On Sb, 15 nov 14, 22:05:58, Joel Rees wrote:
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 9:20 PM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
[(clipping too much, I now realize)]
The transition plan[5] has been posted on -devel since July with
Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It duplicates
equivalent modular alternatives, and also requires unnecessary effort to
repair damage from excessive
On 15-11-2014 16:59, Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 15:22:06 +0200, Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis wrote:
On 15-11-2014 14:17, Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
By the same token systemd is a major waste with no
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 11:37:14 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It duplicates
equivalent modular alternatives, and
On 11/15/2014 7:20 AM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:55:47, Tanstaafl wrote:
On 11/14/2014 5:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
It was claimed that sysvinit was the default *and only* (emphasis not
mine) init, and therefore no selection
Le 15/11/2014 20:24, Brian a écrit :
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 11:37:14 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It
duplicates
Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 11:37:14 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It duplicates
equivalent modular
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 19:24:49 +, Brian wrote:
Upgrading
-
After changing sources.list and an 'apt-get update' do
apt-get install sysvinit-core systemd-shim
Then proceed with an upgrade and dist-upgrade.
New Install
---
Use the apt-get command
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 11:37:14AM -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It duplicates
equivalent modular alternatives, and
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 10:05:49PM +0100, Erwan David wrote:
Le 15/11/2014 20:24, Brian a écrit :
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 11:37:14 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
By the same
On 11/15/2014 06:49 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
On 11/14/2014 05:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
snip
Jumping in here as myself, not Joel's tag-team member. :)
Debian as an entity doesn't really do much. There
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 03:43:40PM -0500, Tanstaafl wrote:
On 11/15/2014 7:20 AM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:55:47, Tanstaafl wrote:
On 11/14/2014 5:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
It was claimed that sysvinit was the default
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote:
On 11/12/2014 5:18 PM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mi, 12 nov 14, 15:43:09, Tanstaafl wrote:
Sounds good to me, but in reality, since the default
On 14-11-2014 12:26, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
snip
However, you and several others are rejecting systemd on ideological
grounds. There's not much that can be done about that, short or
re-implementing systemd according to your vision.
I personally reject the design of systemd.
To paraphrase
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org
wrote:
On 11/12/2014 5:18 PM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mi, 12 nov 14,
Am 14.11.2014 um 11:26 schrieb Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com:
Again, I can't comment on Fedora, but my Raspberry Pi runs systemd just
fine. Also my laptop running is quite far from being a speed monster.
On my two Raspberries I do not care.
On a laptop it depends on your usage
Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis wrote:
On 14-11-2014 12:26, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
snip
However, you and several others are rejecting systemd on ideological
grounds. There's not much that can be done about that, short or
re-implementing systemd according to your vision.
I personally reject the
On 11/14/2014 05:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
snip
Jumping in here as myself, not Joel's tag-team member. :)
Debian as an entity doesn't really do much. There are only one or
several volunteers who start doing things. Setting up a separate port
On Friday 14 November 2014 11:42:32 Dan wrote:
Do you remember the Gnome/KDE war? Now
we have two great desktop. Let's not impose by law an init system.
Yes, but Gnome is the default and you have to be an advanced user to get
KDE.
And anyway, some of us want neither and have to go to even
Le Fri, 14 Nov 2014 12:26:09 +0200,
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com a écrit :
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
[...]
So Fedora is not, itself, really ready yet, except for two groups, a
certain group of workstation users who want and are willing to use
fairly new,
On Friday 14 November 2014 12:27:22 Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote:
Am 14.11.2014 um 11:26 schrieb Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com:
Again, I can't comment on Fedora, but my Raspberry Pi runs systemd just
fine. Also my laptop running is quite far from being a speed monster.
On my two
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
[...]
[snip another wall of text about engineering principles]
And, thus, once again,
The engineering question keeps getting sidetracked by people who
assert that
On Fri, 14 Nov 2014 13:10:22 +
Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:
Do you remember the Gnome/KDE war? Now
we have two great desktop. Let's not impose by law an init system.
Yes, but Gnome is the default and you have to be an advanced user to get
KDE.
Not really, you just have
On 11/14/2014 5:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
It was claimed that sysvinit was the default *and only* (emphasis not
mine) init, and therefore no selection was needed, but now that there
are several a selection suddenly is needed.
I don't recall claiming that sysvinit
2014/11/14 23:12 Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org:
On 11/14/2014 5:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
It was claimed that sysvinit was the default *and only* (emphasis not
mine) init, and therefore no selection was needed, but now that there
are several a selection
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote:
On 11/12/2014 5:18 PM, Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mi, 12 nov 14, 15:43:09, Tanstaafl wrote:
Sounds good to me, but in reality, since the default *and only* init
system for the last very many
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