Hi.
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 02:53:37 +0200
lee l...@yagibdah.de wrote:
Reco recovery...@gmail.com writes:
3) User Alice goes away, but keeps her session in place, locking the
screen.
4) User Bob logs in another X session.
How does Bob log in while the screen is locked?
Either by
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 02:48:55PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:02:08 +0100 Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk wrote:
On 12/10/14 18:13, John Hasler wrote:
You have no problem with an 1800 line function?
...
I have a problem with 1800 line functions in general;
...
I have
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 4:18 PM, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote:
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 02:48:55PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:02:08 +0100 Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk wrote:
On 12/10/14 18:13, John Hasler wrote:
You have no problem with an 1800 line function?
Hi,
On 10/13/2014 12:14, Joel Rees wrote:
Get pid 1 down to 100 lines of C, no loops, no functions called, then
I'll be impressed.
[...]
Setting aside initialization code, pid 1 should target less than 1000
lines of C in the main loop. (If we were to use dash or other
streamlined shells, we
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Ansgar Burchardt ans...@43-1.org wrote:
Hi,
On 10/13/2014 12:14, Joel Rees wrote:
Get pid 1 down to 100 lines of C, no loops, no functions called, then
I'll be impressed.
[...]
Setting aside initialization code, pid 1 should target less than 1000
lines of C
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 03:30:49PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
This is the same reason we are using shared libraries and the Debian
Security Team is doing it's best to track code copies.
Consider /etc/init.d/skeleton a library then. It's sources to
any /etc/init.d script
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:14:29PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 4:18 PM, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote:
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 02:48:55PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:02:08 +0100 Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk wrote:
On 12/10/14 18:13, John
Chris Bannister wrote:
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:14:29PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 4:18 PM, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote:
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 02:48:55PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:02:08 +0100 Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk wrote:
On
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 02:10:11PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
Which is another way of saying that you want others to have already made
the mistakes for you.
No it isn't! Ponder why most people take their car to a mechanic for
servicing.
And you snipped:
As long as you recognize
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Chris Bannister
cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote:
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 02:10:11PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
Which is another way of saying that you want others to have already made
the mistakes for you.
No it isn't! Ponder why most people take their
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 10:44 PM, Chris Bannister
cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote:
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:14:29PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 4:18 PM, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote:
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 02:48:55PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 08:18:57 +0100
Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote:
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 02:48:55PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:02:08 +0100 Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk
wrote:
On 12/10/14 18:13, John Hasler wrote:
You have no problem with an 1800 line
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Miles Fidelman
mfidel...@meetinghouse.net wrote:
Chris Bannister wrote:
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:14:29PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 4:18 PM, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org
wrote:
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 02:48:55PM -0400, Steve Litt
On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 07:37:17 +0900
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
The only way to fix that in systemd is for systemd to delegate the
complicated stuff like managing dbus to child processes, so the
processes that will occasionally stall won't impact the whole system
as much.
When/if
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com writes:
If pid 1 gets stalled, lots of things all over the system get to wait
for something important that can't happen until pid 1 gets un-stalled,
and that's true even with quad core. It may not freeze every process,
but it can cause dropped packets and such
On 12/10/14 04:12, Peter Zoeller wrote:
But the nice
thing is shell scripting is simplistic easy to learn and understand.
I refer the audience to David A. Wheeler's essay[1] on how to handle
filenames correctly in shell scripts, and to the bug report that he
filed against POSIX.1-2008[2] on
Hmm. Let's comment that for people newer to scripting than I am.
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 6:28 AM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote:
[...]
Daemontools runscripts are incredibly simple shellscripts, that I'm
sure you could write no sweat except in very wierd edge cases. Here's
my run
Andrei Popescu:
Why should I write a script? I'm not a programmer.
I can write a (simple) shellscript, but I wouldn't dare write an
initscript or even a daemontools runscript.
You have an incorrect mental model of the relative difficulty of the
tasks. A run program for a daemontools-family
Andrei Popescu:
I recently needed something to run imapfilter and restart it in case
it might exit, so I had a look at daemontools. I gave up quickly [...]
And here's how one can do it with the nosh package
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/Softwares/nosh.html).
I took
Steve Litt:
### RUN THE DAEMON ###
exec envuidgid slitt envdir ./env setuidgid slitt \
/d/at/python/littcron/littcron.py \
/d/at/python/littcron/crontab
Joel Rees:
man exec for clues to that, understand that littcron.py is Steve's
special cron (right, Steve?), and that he is setting
On Du, 12 oct 14, 01:41:34, Reco wrote:
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 23:02:01 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 23:20:34, Reco wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 20:47:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
At least with systemd if
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 17:41:28, Steve Litt wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 22:28:31 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
Really? How do you write an initscript that restarts your daemon
automatically in case it fails for some reason?
Also, imapfilter doesn't write a pidfile
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 21:40:49, Steve Litt wrote:
From my viewpoint, shellscripts were never intended to be big, huge
programs. To me, they just glue together commands, and have a few
rudimentary branching and looping constructs.
Isn't that like buying IKEA furniture, but when you get home you
On 10/12/2014 at 10:07 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 21:40:49, Steve Litt wrote:
From my viewpoint, shellscripts were never intended to be big,
huge programs. To me, they just glue together commands, and have a
few rudimentary branching and looping constructs.
Isn't that
Reco recovery...@gmail.com writes:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/src/core/dbus-manager.c?id=3731acf1acfb4a6eb68374a5b137f3b368f63381#n638
Ah, this is a wonderful example :) My assumptions about the code were right.
Does all/most of systemd look like that?
--
Hallowed are
Reco recovery...@gmail.com writes:
3) User Alice goes away, but keeps her session in place, locking the
screen.
4) User Bob logs in another X session.
How does Bob log in while the screen is locked?
--
Hallowed are the Debians!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to
Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com writes:
pingaddr=8.8.8.8
pingaddr=192.168.100.96
Why is this is defined multiple times?
--
Hallowed are the Debians!
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On 12/10/14 01:43, lee wrote:
Reco recovery...@gmail.com writes:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/src/core/dbus-manager.c?id=3731acf1acfb4a6eb68374a5b137f3b368f63381#n638
Ah, this is a wonderful example :) My assumptions about the code were right.
Does all/most of systemd
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 03:05:59 +0200
lee l...@yagibdah.de wrote:
Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com writes:
pingaddr=8.8.8.8
pingaddr=192.168.100.96
Why is this is defined multiple times?
Mistake!
The 8.8.8.8 isn't needed. That's a test of Internet connectivity, when
what I wanted
Martin Read writes:
I'm not seeing a serious problem with that function.
You have no problem with an 1800 line function?
--
John Hasler
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA
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On Du, 12 oct 14, 10:30:52, The Wanderer wrote:
On 10/12/2014 at 10:07 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
Any program that requires additional scripting just to get it running
is insufficiently advanced.
(you can quote me on that)
Part of the tradeoff for power is responsibility - both in
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 09:33:43 +0100
Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk wrote:
On 12/10/14 04:12, Peter Zoeller wrote:
But the nice
thing is shell scripting is simplistic easy to learn and understand.
I refer the audience to David A. Wheeler's essay[1] on how to handle
filenames correctly in
On 10/12/2014 at 01:42 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 09:33:43 +0100 Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk
wrote:
On 12/10/14 04:12, Peter Zoeller wrote:
But the nice thing is shell scripting is simplistic easy to learn
and understand.
I refer the audience to David A. Wheeler's
On 12/10/14 18:13, John Hasler wrote:
Martin Read writes:
I'm not seeing a serious problem with that function.
You have no problem with an 1800 line function?
The thing that you are asking me if it is the case is not the thing I said.
I have a problem with 1800 line functions in general;
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:06:11 +0900
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
Hmm. Let's comment that for people newer to scripting than I am.
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 6:28 AM, Steve Litt
sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote:
### RUN THE DAEMON ###
exec envuidgid slitt envdir ./env
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014, Steve Litt wrote:
This essay practically screams out for somebody to write a C program
that takes an argument of an arbitrary string, finds all files in a
directory, and returns a long string with those files separated by the
arbitrary string.
You seem to be looking for
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 21:40:49, Steve Litt wrote:
From my viewpoint, shellscripts were never intended to be big, huge
programs. To me, they just glue together commands, and have a few
rudimentary branching and looping constructs.
Isn't that like buying IKEA furniture, but
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 15:33:48 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 17:41:28, Steve Litt wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 22:28:31 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
Really? How do you write an initscript that restarts your daemon
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 17:07:01 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 21:40:49, Steve Litt wrote:
From my viewpoint, shellscripts were never intended to be big, huge
programs. To me, they just glue together commands, and have a few
rudimentary branching and
Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014, Steve Litt wrote:
This essay practically screams out for somebody to write a C program
that takes an argument of an arbitrary string, finds all files in a
directory, and returns a long string with those files separated by the
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:02:08 +0100
Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk wrote:
On 12/10/14 18:13, John Hasler wrote:
Martin Read writes:
I'm not seeing a serious problem with that function.
You have no problem with an 1800 line function?
The thing that you are asking me if it is the case is
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 11:16:54 -0700
Don Armstrong d...@debian.org wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014, Steve Litt wrote:
This essay practically screams out for somebody to write a C program
that takes an argument of an arbitrary string, finds all files in a
directory, and returns a long string with
On 10/11/2014 12:49 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 12:19:29, Marty wrote:
Could it be that a modular design for such complex tasks becomes too
difficult to *do it right*?
I don't know, but I think given its history, the burden of proof is on
monolithic, not modular design. A
On 10/11/2014 12:49 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 12:19:29, Marty wrote:
Could it be that a modular design for such complex tasks becomes too
difficult to *do it right*?
I don't know, but I think given its history, the burden of proof is on
monolithic, not modular design. A
On Du, 12 oct 14, 14:24:32, Steve Litt wrote:
Because it can run in the foreground, it's a prime candidate for
daemontools (or one of the daemontools-inspired programs like nosh,
etc).
$ apt-cache show nosh
E: No packages found
So if you don't like brand new top level directories, ignore
2014/10/12 23:07 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 21:40:49, Steve Litt wrote:
From my viewpoint, shellscripts were never intended to be big, huge
programs. To me, they just glue together commands, and have a few
rudimentary branching and looping constructs.
2014/10/13 2:14 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com:
On Du, 12 oct 14, 10:30:52, The Wanderer wrote:
On 10/12/2014 at 10:07 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
Any program that requires additional scripting just to get it running
is insufficiently advanced.
(you can quote me on that)
2014/10/13 2:45 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 09:33:43 +0100
Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk wrote:
On 12/10/14 04:12, Peter Zoeller wrote:
But the nice
thing is shell scripting is simplistic easy to learn and understand.
I refer the audience to David A.
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 1:39 AM, Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk wrote:
On 12/10/14 01:43, lee wrote:
Reco recovery...@gmail.com writes:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/src/core/dbus-manager.c?id=3731acf1acfb4a6eb68374a5b137f3b368f63381#n638
Ah, this is a wonderful example
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:53:03AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
2014/10/13 2:14 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com:
On Du, 12 oct 14, 10:30:52, The Wanderer wrote:
On 10/12/2014 at 10:07 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
Any program that requires additional scripting just to get it running
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Chris Bannister
cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote:
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:53:03AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
2014/10/13 2:14 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com:
On Du, 12 oct 14, 10:30:52, The Wanderer wrote:
On 10/12/2014 at 10:07 AM, Andrei POPESCU
On Vi, 10 oct 14, 08:36:23, Joel Rees wrote:
Some complexities you can encapsulate or hide, or expose in an
organized manner so that that are easier to deal with. Others, no.
[big snip]
The complexity argument can be used both ways:
- the Unix way (do one thing and do it well) leads to many
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:18:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 10 oct 14, 08:36:23, Joel Rees wrote:
Some complexities you can encapsulate or hide, or expose in an
organized manner so that that are easier to deal with. Others, no.
[big snip]
The
On 10/11/2014 08:18 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
Is systemd (the project) trying to do too much? Possibly.
Would it be better if this was done in a modular design *done right*?
Probably.
Yet, none of the solutions so far has *really* caught on. daemontools,
runit, s6, init-ng, etc. and even
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 12:19:29, Marty wrote:
Could it be that a modular design for such complex tasks becomes too
difficult to *do it right*?
I don't know, but I think given its history, the burden of proof is on
monolithic, not modular design. A better question may be whether a
distributed
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:18:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 10 oct 14, 08:36:23, Joel Rees wrote:
Some complexities you can encapsulate or hide, or expose in an
organized manner so that that are easier to deal with. Others, no.
[big snip]
The complexity
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 19:57:42, Reco wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:18:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 10 oct 14, 08:36:23, Joel Rees wrote:
Some complexities you can encapsulate or hide, or expose in an
organized manner so that that are easier to deal
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 13:40:08, Steve Litt wrote:
sysvinit is an idea whose time has gone. sysvinit is a poor way to
showcase the Unix Way. First of all, the whole idea of runlevels is
bizarre, and adds a lot of complexity to init scripts. If you
compare a daemontools /service/myserviced/run to
Andrei POPESCU writes:
With systemd (v215) I had to write this unit file:
Which is about as complex as filling out the skeleteon script to create
an initscript to do the same thing.
--
John Hasler
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 20:47:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 19:57:42, Reco wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:18:58 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Vi, 10 oct 14, 08:36:23, Joel Rees wrote:
Some complexities you
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 14:12:20, John Hasler wrote:
Andrei POPESCU writes:
With systemd (v215) I had to write this unit file:
Which is about as complex as filling out the skeleteon script to create
an initscript to do the same thing.
Really? How do you write an initscript that restarts your
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 23:20:34, Reco wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 20:47:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
At least with systemd if you fix a bug it will benefit all daemons using
it.
No, quite the contrary. By fixing such jack-of-all-trades
libsystemd library you're
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 21:21:14 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 13:40:08, Steve Litt wrote:
sysvinit is an idea whose time has gone. sysvinit is a poor way to
showcase the Unix Way. First of all, the whole idea of runlevels is
bizarre, and adds a lot
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 23:20:34 +0400
Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 20:47:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
[huge snip]
No, that was just for the I'm sole user of this system, why would
I need this logind stuff? crowd.
Thanks, I'm
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 23:02:01 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 23:20:34, Reco wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 20:47:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
At least with systemd if you fix a bug it will benefit all daemons using
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 22:28:31 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
Really? How do you write an initscript that restarts your daemon
automatically in case it fails for some reason?
Also, imapfilter doesn't write a pidfile at all, so I'd need to make
at least some
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 17:35:00 -0400
Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 23:20:34 +0400
Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 20:47:36 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
[huge snip]
No, that was just for
On 10/11/2014 05:28 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 21:21:14 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sb, 11 oct 14, 13:40:08, Steve Litt wrote:
sysvinit is an idea whose time has gone. sysvinit is a poor way to
showcase the Unix Way. First of all, the whole idea
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 19:05:19 -0400
Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net wrote:
On 10/11/2014 05:28 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 21:21:14 +0300
Daemontools runscripts are incredibly simple shellscripts, that I'm
sure you could write no sweat except in very wierd edge cases.
Here's
On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 09:40:49PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
Now that I've said that, you can accomplish some pretty incredible
things by gluing a few commands together. I wrote the better half of a
http log evaluation program using a shellscript gluing together grep,
cut, and awk, and piped
Hi Steve:
I agree that shell scripts are simplistic and not meant for fancy
programs although it could be done, just not productive. But the nice
thing is shell scripting is simplistic easy to learn and understand.
Sure beats the days when I wrote code in Assembler, Cobol, Fortran, PL1,
indpendent variables, when they didn't start out that way in your
analysis.
Hm, true ... Less linkage is easier to hide than more linkage. It makes
me think of a simple perl script. Such a script probably has an
unbelievable amount of implicit linkage. For example:
perl -e 'print scalar localtime
On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 08:36:23 +0900
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
Indeed. And one of the problems with computers is that people want to
believe that computers can make complexities go away.
Some complexities you can encapsulate or hide, or expose in an
organized manner so that that
amount of implicit linkage. For example:
perl -e 'print scalar localtime, \n;'
Since you cannot make things less complex,
I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
If you know you can make things more complex, you know that there must
be things that can be made less complex.
The less
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