Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Michel, 2013/12/13 Michel Renon michel.re...@free.fr Hi, Le 06/12/2013 19:39, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit : Hello Michel, [...] Indeed. I find you quite shy in fact, and I'm serious. To me it does not look like you were ignored, rather that no one knows about it. Which is a problem since the start. I wouldn't say I'm shy, I'm just polite and I don't want to waste time and energy in endless discussion (mail or chat). And I understood that in this mailing list, you have to insist or even be aggressive to explain/force your UX ideas while I expected professional skills and democracy, at least meritocracy (I really miss Christoph Noack). [...] What would be better is that if your proposals were communicated. I've never seen your name, never read any of your mails (except this thread) before. False ! I wrote articles in my blog about LibreOffice design process in march/april 2013 and on 11/04/2013 sent an email : To: design@global.libreoffice.org, libreoffice-ux-advise@lists. freedesktop.org Cc: charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org, italo.vign...@gmail.com So, you had at least one (important !) email from me. And I had only 2 answers : - one from Emir Yāsin SARI - the other from Michael Meeks : (short version with my words) - we don't want to take care of your advises - TDF is very happy with the current design team and also few comments directly in the blog, but nobody from the TDF. So, when someone as Michael Meeks closes the door to my suggestions, what can I expect ? I would be foolish to insist. So I can return your argument : why only 2 person wrote answers to my articles in this ml ? why didn't you realized at that time that I have some expertise in UX design ? why nothing has changed in the design team workflow ? and in the way devs and designers work together ? Ans same question for my suggestion to postpone the startcenter : you ask my reasons to do so, but I explained it in my mail, just read it ! I don't read everything on the design list, but I believe that if you have not engaged with the design team first, nothing will happen. Just FYI, I started with project OOo Renaissance ! (May 2009) (https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80% 9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D) https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Michel_Renon My complete proposal as a pdf file (37 pages, 630 Ko) https://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/2/26/Proposal_impress_ui_renon3.pdf (it was far from being perfect because I created it in few nights, while working for a diploma ; but still interesting ideas) BTW, you can see that there was already the dribbblization problem : only proposals made with screenshots had strong reviews. and I'm listed in the initial members of LO design team (but this page has been archived) : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team BTW, Mirek, there is no information about you. What is your *real* experience in software design ? Have you ever produced a professional software ? No. I'm simply a volunteer here, nothing else. :) As I said before, I was never appointed as a UX lead, and you're welcome to partake in all the activities I partake in. You can act as the UX lead, if you'd like. :) For my emails, just look at archive of mailing list and chat logs : I worked for color picker, template manager. From my email client stats, I wrote 77 mails in design list and 52 in ux-advise. I agree, I didn't communicated on a regular basis : I'm just a volunteer and also have a daily job. But when I realized that current design team lacks basic UX skills (while working on color picker), I lost most of my motivation and felt it was useless to make proposals. And the last emails in this mailing list really broke the last bits of motivation : - saying officially that design is and will ever be a second class citizen It all depends on the people. If you have the skills to make design a first class citizen here, go for it. Don't ask for my approval -- you don't need it. - saying officially that TDF will never listen to users That's not exactly true. What was said is that user comments won't be the primary driving force behind development, to avoid feature creep. - saying officially that nothing will change (no roadmap, no mid/long term vision, only bazaar short term changes) beacuse LO is, as Charles said, a libertarian project You can propose a roadmap or a vision. If people like it, they'll follow it. - design team has no plans to enhance the design process Come to the IRC chat on Saturday -- we can talk about the design process then. However, it seemed to me from your blog posts that you were asking for a paid group of professional UX designers working outside of the community, which I don't really think has a chance of happening anytime soon. So I have nothing more to do for LibreOffice. So this is my last message before
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi, Le 06/12/2013 19:39, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit : Hello Michel, [...] Indeed. I find you quite shy in fact, and I'm serious. To me it does not look like you were ignored, rather that no one knows about it. Which is a problem since the start. I wouldn't say I'm shy, I'm just polite and I don't want to waste time and energy in endless discussion (mail or chat). And I understood that in this mailing list, you have to insist or even be aggressive to explain/force your UX ideas while I expected professional skills and democracy, at least meritocracy (I really miss Christoph Noack). [...] What would be better is that if your proposals were communicated. I've never seen your name, never read any of your mails (except this thread) before. False ! I wrote articles in my blog about LibreOffice design process in march/april 2013 and on 11/04/2013 sent an email : To: design@global.libreoffice.org, libreoffice-ux-adv...@lists.freedesktop.org Cc: charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org, italo.vign...@gmail.com So, you had at least one (important !) email from me. And I had only 2 answers : - one from Emir Yâsin SARI - the other from Michael Meeks : (short version with my words) - we don't want to take care of your advises - TDF is very happy with the current design team and also few comments directly in the blog, but nobody from the TDF. So, when someone as Michael Meeks closes the door to my suggestions, what can I expect ? I would be foolish to insist. So I can return your argument : why only 2 person wrote answers to my articles in this ml ? why didn't you realized at that time that I have some expertise in UX design ? why nothing has changed in the design team workflow ? and in the way devs and designers work together ? Ans same question for my suggestion to postpone the startcenter : you ask my reasons to do so, but I explained it in my mail, just read it ! I don't read everything on the design list, but I believe that if you have not engaged with the design team first, nothing will happen. Just FYI, I started with project OOo Renaissance ! (May 2009) (https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D) https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Michel_Renon My complete proposal as a pdf file (37 pages, 630 Ko) https://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/2/26/Proposal_impress_ui_renon3.pdf (it was far from being perfect because I created it in few nights, while working for a diploma ; but still interesting ideas) BTW, you can see that there was already the dribbblization problem : only proposals made with screenshots had strong reviews. and I'm listed in the initial members of LO design team (but this page has been archived) : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team BTW, Mirek, there is no information about you. What is your *real* experience in software design ? Have you ever produced a professional software ? For my emails, just look at archive of mailing list and chat logs : I worked for color picker, template manager. From my email client stats, I wrote 77 mails in design list and 52 in ux-advise. I agree, I didn't communicated on a regular basis : I'm just a volunteer and also have a daily job. But when I realized that current design team lacks basic UX skills (while working on color picker), I lost most of my motivation and felt it was useless to make proposals. And the last emails in this mailing list really broke the last bits of motivation : - saying officially that design is and will ever be a second class citizen - saying officially that TDF will never listen to users - saying officially that nothing will change (no roadmap, no mid/long term vision, only bazaar short term changes) beacuse LO is, as Charles said, a libertarian project - design team has no plans to enhance the design process So I have nothing more to do for LibreOffice. So this is my last message before unsubscribe. Michel -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Michel, Sorry for taking so long to respond -- I had a really busy week. 2013/12/6 Michel Renon michel.re...@free.fr Hi Mirek, Le 27/10/2013 02:04, Mirek M. a écrit : Hi Michel, This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're welcome to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has to accept those changes.) As Cor Nouws already said, it's always more difficult to do something and then modify it again and again than taking time to design it correctly the first time. I don't even talk about users getting upset by regular changes. Agreed on going for the best design before development. If you'd like to do user studies, please be my guest. Right now, designs are based on heuristics [1], Too much abstract. They might seem abstract at a cursory glance, but they're really quite well-defined. They seem to have been devised by Alex Faaborg and have been used to tag FireFox UX bugs. BTW, if you have some time, I recommend his I/O presentations [1][2]. guidelines [2], It would be ok, but here is only one (unimplemented ?) widget... We refer to the latest Gnome guidelines when we don't have guidelines of our own. We should expand the guidelines when we hit on topics that the Gnome HIG does not cover or when we have important reasons to diverge from their guidelines and create our own. and discussions, That's the problem in the design team : too much unstructured discussions ! You should spend your time on making prototypes and user testing in a scientific way. Please guide the way. :) but of course it'd be great if they were validated by other means as well. Till today, the validation is done only with I like, I don't like, I'd prefer from the design lead/team. I feel this relates to your earlier message, so I'll post a snippet: Then I made a proposal about entrance animations for Impress. You can see that I followed the process I was talking in my blog https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance but that proposal was refused by the design lead without any valid/scientific arguments :http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-May/002012.html; So, first and foremost, where does it say that I'm the design lead? I don't recall being elected or appointed as one, nor do I recall calling myself that. Secondly, I would rather opt for redesigning the current custom animation panel than adding a new panel, especially as the task pane is overpopulated as is. is not a rejection, it's simply me stating my opinion. Please don't get discouraged so quickly. :) Creating a validation process means having a global vision, and precise goals with metrics (goals that can be measured ; ex: nb of clicks to perform a specific action, or mouse move distance). The measurable goals you listed can have adverse affects on the UX -- they put too much focus onto one specific UX problem without considering the multitude of others. If we take number of clicks as an example, with the least clicks being the most desirable, and have that as our goal, we could easily end up with an unusable setup that could suffer from: * Not enough space given to the document because the we put as many buttons up front as we could * Incomprehensible buttons because we shrank the icon size to fit as many as we could * Hard-to-target buttons because they've been made too small * Being too hard to process because of the sheer volume of commands presented at once etc. The principles we have take the broader situation into consideration. For example, rather than number of clicks, the more broadly-defined ux-efficiency principle allows for solutions like keyboard shortcuts, contextual buttons, touch gestures, voice commands, etc., and the other principles ensure that other important UX aspects aren't abandoned just to support this principle. As for the global vision, I wonder what exactly you'd imagine -- please elaborate. My take on the issue is that it'd be good to define what the purpose of each module is and then base our design decisions on that purpose as well as our principles and guidelines. For example, if we say Writer is a tool for producing professional-looking documents intended to be viewed page-by-page, then we should seriously consider losing Web view (which goes against the page-by-page part) and FontWork (which, ask any typographer, goes against the profesional-looking part) -- or rather, spinning them off as extensions. Extensions, in general, are an excellent way to provide features that are not in the scope of the project, and they've been working excellently for browsers. (BTW, losing the FontWork feature wouldn't mean losing rendering of FontWork/WordArt, but rather just leaving FontWork creation and editing up to an extension. Whatever filetypes LibreOffice chooses to support should be rendered as precisely as possible.) If we say Writer is a tool for editing a range of file formats with full support
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Rofolfo, 2013/12/6 Rodolfo rodolf...@gmail.com Hi, Michel. I just want to say that I'd be glad to help on implementation of the Color picker once its design is done. Wonderful. Given that the GSoC project didn't come through and that there's still uncertainty as to whether themes will be implemented and when, we're taking an evolutionary approach with the picker. The first step would be to implement document colors: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67995 . Having this would allow us to make broader changes to the default color palette, which we keep the same for compatibility reasons. It would also pave way for custom colors, making it possible to use a consistent set of custom colors within a document. Tell me if you'd like to work on this. :) I could do the Comment control on Writer ruler[1], because its proposal was clear enough to deploy[2]. Regards, Rodolfo [1] http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=e047a967b0db8c61dc977b52f3876fc4e385ad77 [2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Comments_Ruler_Control 2013/12/5 Michel Renon michel.re...@free.fr: [snip] Another example : the color picker. How many hours spent in designing that ? (whenever it's completed or not) Will it be implemented any day ? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hello Michel, Le Fri, 06 Dec 2013 01:09:37 +0100, Michel Renon michel.re...@free.fr a écrit : Hi Charles, (Sorry for long delay in my answer, but busy in my daily work) Thanks for taking time to answer. I think that I should have introduced myself, in order to better explain my arguments : I'm a mechanical engineer, software engineer and teacher (in a professional way : I have diplomas for all of them). I'm writing software since 1984, when I was teenager. Ok, it was only bad basic, on an Oric Atmos (!). Then I bought my first Mac in 1987 and I started to write scientific software form my mechanical studies. Then, finally, I could learn how to write code professionally. Since 1992, I wrote mostly scientific software (mechanical, also for medical), databases, then web sites, and for last 5 years I work with OpenERP. Since 1992, I listen to customer's needs and I have to translate that in code. And given my customer's feedback, I have some skills in listening to users. And since 1987, my goal as a dev is to write software that is really easy to use, so since 1987, I've done UX design. My biggest project was a mechanical software for the leading european aircraft manufacturer, and 12 years after, it's still a success for users. And another example few weeks ago : the customer wanted a new functionality, and other dev started something complicated. I just discussed with people, asking few questions and then identified that they need not one but three answers. One answer for every context, every use case. Last but not least, every answer will be very easy to code ! So I'm not a newbie when I talk about UX Design or listening to users. Cool! (all my answers are inline) Le 25/10/2013 17:08, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit : Hello Michel, I feel I need to address some of your points without talking too much about the StartCenter proposal (which by the way I like very much). Comments inline. Le Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:37:03 +0200, Michel Renon michel.re...@free.fr a écrit : [...] First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design process : - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies, validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just It would be useful to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more fancy stuff. [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part) are the same. It seems you are expecting a professional process of people actually working on a regular basis for that. I don't think that's the case here, and it does not change all the skills and talent the team has. - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread, you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of July, half time of GSOC. We must at least give credit to the Design/UX team for having enforced a proper whiteboards-based process. Just compare them with one test I made : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance status, schedule, use cases, technical context, metric, measure for each proposal... All of these elements are missing in the whiteboards while they are minimum in any professional design process. So my question is that how it was possible, with all your expertise, not to include your process guidance and subprocesses in the design process as it is documented today. Again: this is a community, you don't expect an homogeneous team to pop and start working out of the blue. Devs have created a state-of-the-art process to build LO : repositories, code review, validations, automatic builds, automatic tests and so on... Why can't it be extended to the design ? IMHO, it indicates that UX design and graphics are considered second-class citizen in open source projects : they are not directly linked to the code, they are here just to make the software look nice, so they are not very important. Even Mirek (Design lead) has difficulties to have is proposals implemented ! Yes, and while it is not ideal, that's where community processes (not design ones) enter into place to ensure that contributions from the design team (or other teams) are taken into account, not necessarily in an automatic way, but are at least seriously evaluated. My opinion is that the design process should be integrated in the global building process, just like other type of products (cars, buildings, any manufactured product...) But your opinion is wrong, because you think a Free and Open Source Software project works just like other type of products. It does not, never will, never has. - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no blueprint...) Yup, on the other it's
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Charles, (Sorry for long delay in my answer, but busy in my daily work) Thanks for taking time to answer. I think that I should have introduced myself, in order to better explain my arguments : I'm a mechanical engineer, software engineer and teacher (in a professional way : I have diplomas for all of them). I'm writing software since 1984, when I was teenager. Ok, it was only bad basic, on an Oric Atmos (!). Then I bought my first Mac in 1987 and I started to write scientific software form my mechanical studies. Then, finally, I could learn how to write code professionally. Since 1992, I wrote mostly scientific software (mechanical, also for medical), databases, then web sites, and for last 5 years I work with OpenERP. Since 1992, I listen to customer's needs and I have to translate that in code. And given my customer's feedback, I have some skills in listening to users. And since 1987, my goal as a dev is to write software that is really easy to use, so since 1987, I've done UX design. My biggest project was a mechanical software for the leading european aircraft manufacturer, and 12 years after, it's still a success for users. And another example few weeks ago : the customer wanted a new functionality, and other dev started something complicated. I just discussed with people, asking few questions and then identified that they need not one but three answers. One answer for every context, every use case. Last but not least, every answer will be very easy to code ! So I'm not a newbie when I talk about UX Design or listening to users. (all my answers are inline) Le 25/10/2013 17:08, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit : Hello Michel, I feel I need to address some of your points without talking too much about the StartCenter proposal (which by the way I like very much). Comments inline. Le Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:37:03 +0200, Michel Renon michel.re...@free.fr a écrit : [...] First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design process : - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies, validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just It would be useful to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more fancy stuff. [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part) are the same. It seems you are expecting a professional process of people actually working on a regular basis for that. I don't think that's the case here, and it does not change all the skills and talent the team has. - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread, you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of July, half time of GSOC. We must at least give credit to the Design/UX team for having enforced a proper whiteboards-based process. Just compare them with one test I made : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance status, schedule, use cases, technical context, metric, measure for each proposal... All of these elements are missing in the whiteboards while they are minimum in any professional design process. Again: this is a community, you don't expect an homogeneous team to pop and start working out of the blue. Devs have created a state-of-the-art process to build LO : repositories, code review, validations, automatic builds, automatic tests and so on... Why can't it be extended to the design ? IMHO, it indicates that UX design and graphics are considered second-class citizen in open source projects : they are not directly linked to the code, they are here just to make the software look nice, so they are not very important. Even Mirek (Design lead) has difficulties to have is proposals implemented ! My opinion is that the design process should be integrated in the global building process, just like other type of products (cars, buildings, any manufactured product...) - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no blueprint...) Yup, on the other it's called software freedom So LibreOffice is the *only* software/project that has no roadmap !... it looks like a joke ! I'm sure people from MIMO and other professional users will appreciate that information. - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX brings lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y. Do we - use the proposal Mateusz gave us? While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations. Why are they broken? no real studies : no goals, no roadmap, no use cases, no metrics... However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a graphist (not a UX designer). True. But surely we should not burn the said graphist because he's not an UX designer? Please
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Le 27/10/2013 16:43, Cor Nouws a écrit : Mirek M. wrote (27-10-13 02:04) Hi Michel, This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're welcome to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has to accept those changes.) The problem is that a process is started, that is not always solid enough to give the professional outcome that is needed. Despite the enthousiasm and commitment of many people in the community. You can diliver something that is not finished enough and say to the ones that are affected: pls repair :) Same with the template manager. Still broken functionality. Thus when it's not finished in the sense that you can expect new users to be enthusiastic (or at least not being putt-off) and exiting (business) users to be able to work with it, there must be the option to keep the work back to be more finihed for the next release. That is what Michael explained in a IMO undertandable and correct way. Thanks ! It's always pleasant to read that our opinion is well understood and supported. Michel -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi, Michel. I just want to say that I'd be glad to help on implementation of the Color picker once its design is done. I could do the Comment control on Writer ruler[1], because its proposal was clear enough to deploy[2]. Regards, Rodolfo [1] http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=e047a967b0db8c61dc977b52f3876fc4e385ad77 [2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Comments_Ruler_Control 2013/12/5 Michel Renon michel.re...@free.fr: [snip] Another example : the color picker. How many hours spent in designing that ? (whenever it's completed or not) Will it be implemented any day ? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Welcome screen LO 4.2
Hi all, I think that Welcome screen or Mock up for LO 4.2 heading towards perfections but I have some comments. * I prefer a little bit more design by Mateusz Zasuwik ( http://i.imgur.com/KWpS7tu.jpg - green sidebar on right and logo of LibreOffice in the right-down corner) then design by Stefan Knorr ( https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/startcenter/startcen.html - green sidebar on right and no logo of LO) *+* also there are tabs for selection only a type of files (documents, spreadsheets, ...) * Other question is content of Welcome screen ... *previews of files* (Mateusz Zasuwik) or*icons only* (Stefan Knorr). I am working with LO 4.2 form early alpha versions but the previews are a bit disturbing from graphical point of view. I see the design with coloured icons from S. Knorr - but my (and I don't know if only my) opinion is that too much colourful. The design is not clear and icons are more expressive than other graphics. - I am sending an alternative to the S. Knorr desing - grayscaled/lightened icons with coloured top-right corner only http://ph.hostujeme.cz/LO/LO-Knorr-changed01.png * Is any possibility to change size of the previews? If it is possible, than it can be a potentional security risk if file contains only a few of words/numbers and the content is readable in preview ... * Is any possibility to view *details of files* (name, date/time of last change, size, ...) instead of previews of files or big icons? Best regards, Pavel Haraticky PS: sorry for my English -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Cor, Cor Nouws píše v Čt 07. 11. 2013 v 00:49 +0100: the last .src, and convert it to .ui) so that it is much easier for anybody in the design team to go, and just fix anything that looks ugly or does not behave as it should. Please, PLEASE, start using this power - just grab an .ui file and start playing. I would love to, but alas I'm not able to do that any time soon. Sorry, I did not mean you directly :-) [I know you are busy] - just wanted to encourage all the people there. I wanted to stress that an extremely important part of the work that the developers are doing is to enable much broader audience that can make the work directly, without having to block on somebody who would turn designs into actual code. Actually - it would be fantastic to add it as a requirement to the Whiteboard process that in case a dialog / other interaction is designed, it has to appear there as .ui at some (relatively early) stage too, not only as a mockup. All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Cor, Michel, Cor Nouws píše v Ne 27. 10. 2013 v 18:00 +0100: I propose to mix those 2 points : - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the LO4.1 start center - start a new process to design a new new start center : [...] The biggest problem IMO at the moment is the appearance. It's off-puting. I am late to the party it seems, but I'd really like to address this, because I believe this is misunderstanding we should fix :-) If that cannot be fixed in time I would say: your step 1. The thing is that now, thanks to the great Krisztian's work, the start center is just an .ui file that _anyone_ can edit in glade to make it nicer. I'd really like people here to understand that we have made a huge effort in the code base (and it is still continuing until we erase the last .src, and convert it to .ui) so that it is much easier for anybody in the design team to go, and just fix anything that looks ugly or does not behave as it should. Please, PLEASE, start using this power - just grab an .ui file and start playing. In the case of the start center, there is a bit of additional development work necessary to make it look really beautiful [eg. to get the green background for the buttons for example]; but if anybody here provided me with .ui that has the buttons at the right places, with the right descriptions etc. according to the Mateusz's friend's design, I could focus on that harder pieces only, and I could even have time for additional stuff like single click to open the document etc. The file in question is here: sfx2/uiconfig/ui/startcenter.ui [http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/sfx2/uiconfig/ui/startcenter.ui] Glade (if you are not on Linux - where you most probably have it already) is here: https://glade.gnome.org/ BTW - you do not have to download the file from the repository, you can just edit the startcenter.ui in your installation of the daily build, restart LibreOffice, and see your results immediately. No iteration through developers necessary - you have the power to make it behaving perfectly, and send me the resulting .ui for integration :-) All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Kendy Jan Holesovsky wrote (06-11-13 13:06) The thing is that now, thanks to the great Krisztian's work, the start center is just an .ui file that _anyone_ can edit in glade to make it nicer. I'd really like people here to understand that we have made a huge effort in the code base (and it is still continuing until we erase I understand the great work that has been done and that there are more/ relatively easy ways to improve how it looks now :) And I'm really sorry that I did not give enough credits to all the good work from Krisztian and you and other. the last .src, and convert it to .ui) so that it is much easier for anybody in the design team to go, and just fix anything that looks ugly or does not behave as it should. Please, PLEASE, start using this power - just grab an .ui file and start playing. I would love to, but alas I'm not able to do that any time soon. Cheers, -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Mirek, all, Mirek M. píše v St 30. 10. 2013 v 23:12 +0100: It'd be great if we could discuss this on the IRC chat this Sunday at 12:00 UTC and reach a final destination -- https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings. If not, please comment here on specific parts of the proposals and reasons why they are desirable/undesirable. Note that the tab bar will have the look defined by the OS, and thus the document area will most likely be white. Kendy, do you think the toolbar can be made responsive for this release? If not, I'd probably agree to go with a sidebar. No; unfortunately I can spend only a very limited time on this, and it seems to me that implementing the sidebar way (Mateusz friend's design) will be easier - if that works for you. Sorry for not being responsive, was traveling the last week. I'm also curious if it will be possible to hide the menubar in the Center and have wizards, the lesser-used document types, and help in a menu at the end of the toolbar. Best if you try to tweak the appropriate menu.xml, and push it via gerrit, we cannot get rid of it for good though. It should be this one: framework/uiconfig/startmodule/menubar/menubar.xml All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Could you also discuss this Issue please: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70978 I won't be in the Chat, but I have already given my voice in the bug report. Thanks Samuel Am 30.10.2013 23:12, schrieb Mirek M.: Hi guys, It'd be great if we could discuss this on the IRC chat this Sunday at 12:00 UTC and reach a final destination -- https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi guys, It'd be great if we could discuss this on the IRC chat this Sunday at 12:00 UTC and reach a final destination -- https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings. If not, please comment here on specific parts of the proposals and reasons why they are desirable/undesirable. Note that the tab bar will have the look defined by the OS, and thus the document area will most likely be white. Kendy, do you think the toolbar can be made responsive for this release? If not, I'd probably agree to go with a sidebar. I'm also curious if it will be possible to hide the menubar in the Center and have wizards, the lesser-used document types, and help in a menu at the end of the toolbar. On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I just want to remind you the deadlines here so nobody is surprised if they are missed ;) - Kendy asked for a design for alpĥa 1 which is due for week 45 (November 4 to 10) - Hard feature freezed branched libreoffice-4-2 is due for week 47 (November 18 to 24) - Hard English string UI freeze is due for week 51 (December 16 to 22) after this date it will be too late if any string has to be added. - Hard code freeze branch libreoffice-4-2-0 is due week 2 (January 6 to 12) after this date nothing is possible anymore for this release. So please, makes it possible as soon as you can, we will be able to test it and have feedback without stressing too much. Thanks in advance :) Kind regards Sophie Le 10/10/2013 11:40, Jan Holesovsky a écrit : Hi, Maybe you have noticed in the daily builds the new Startcenter that LibreOffice 4.2 will come up with. It is focused on improving the user experience based on the assumption that the user very probably wants to edit documents he/she has edited in the past. But there is a problem - when they open LibreOffice for the first time, there is no recent document, and the Startcenter looks just too empty; see here: http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter.png It would be great to provide default graphics for the case there is no recent document yet - can you please start the call for designs come up with something beautiful helpful that we could use inside the huge white area? :-) It should be resizable, or able to survive resizing. I believe we should be able to get some text into it too, but hypertext might be problematic I'm afraid. Other than that - looking forward to the designs! :-) It would be awesome to have the designs for Alpha1, in case some programming is necessary; so the deadline is 4th November: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.2#4.2.0_release Thank you in advance, Kendy -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Membership Certification Committee Member - Co-founder The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi all, I just want to remind you the deadlines here so nobody is surprised if they are missed ;) - Kendy asked for a design for alpĥa 1 which is due for week 45 (November 4 to 10) - Hard feature freezed branched libreoffice-4-2 is due for week 47 (November 18 to 24) - Hard English string UI freeze is due for week 51 (December 16 to 22) after this date it will be too late if any string has to be added. - Hard code freeze branch libreoffice-4-2-0 is due week 2 (January 6 to 12) after this date nothing is possible anymore for this release. So please, makes it possible as soon as you can, we will be able to test it and have feedback without stressing too much. Thanks in advance :) Kind regards Sophie Le 10/10/2013 11:40, Jan Holesovsky a écrit : Hi, Maybe you have noticed in the daily builds the new Startcenter that LibreOffice 4.2 will come up with. It is focused on improving the user experience based on the assumption that the user very probably wants to edit documents he/she has edited in the past. But there is a problem - when they open LibreOffice for the first time, there is no recent document, and the Startcenter looks just too empty; see here: http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter.png It would be great to provide default graphics for the case there is no recent document yet - can you please start the call for designs come up with something beautiful helpful that we could use inside the huge white area? :-) It should be resizable, or able to survive resizing. I believe we should be able to get some text into it too, but hypertext might be problematic I'm afraid. Other than that - looking forward to the designs! :-) It would be awesome to have the designs for Alpha1, in case some programming is necessary; so the deadline is 4th November: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.2#4.2.0_release Thank you in advance, Kendy -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Membership Certification Committee Member - Co-founder The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Cor Nouws wrote (27-10-13 16:43) You can diliver something that is not finished enough and say to the ones that are affected: pls repair :) Obviously should be You can't diliver something that is not finished enough and say to the ones that are affected: pls repair :) (You can, but it's not done IMO) -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Michel, This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're welcome to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has to accept those changes.) If you'd like to do user studies, please be my guest. Right now, designs are based on heuristics [1], guidelines [2], and discussions, but of course it'd be great if they were validated by other means as well. (I don't have the time and energy to invest in user studies or user testing right now, which is why they aren't being done. It'd be great if you could help there.) I understand you're not happy with the Start Center, and it would've been ideal if you could have chimed in after the inital call for designs, but now you can still chime in with suggestions for improvement, user research, user testing, or propose patches. If you'd like to chat further, come to today's IRC chat. [3] [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles [2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Guidelines [3] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Michel Renon michel.re...@free.fr wrote: Hi, This thread makes me wake up from my silence for few months. I've already given up on working in the design team, because it's useless, but I wanted to express some comments and provide a clear answer to K-J. Thanks to Mateusz Zasuwik for his strong feedback ! But I see that there is no real reactions. Le 24/10/2013 13:06, K-J LibreOffice a écrit : Hi Kendy, Mirek, *, Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky: [...] Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-) I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time experience than a 'no recent documents found'... Sorry for not being clear in my request :-( What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in discussion. First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design process : - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies, validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just It would be useful to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more fancy stuff. [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part) are the same. - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread, you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of July, half time of GSOC. - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no blueprint...) - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX brings lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y. Do we - use the proposal Mateusz gave us? While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations. However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a graphist (not a UX designer). - make any proposal of a sc-wallpaper? Sorry, I don't understand what you mean . If it is about proposals to add some background image (ie wallpaper), then it's just some painting on a broken wall, so it's useless. - announce it? No ! - start other things? - left it all? I propose to mix those 2 points : - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the LO4.1 start center - start a new process to design a new new start center : - involve devs, QA team, a11y team - ask some users (specially from MIMO [3]) - should enhance the current start center or create a new one ? - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by every team - only then, start to implement it It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical product, a building...). The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot himself in the foot : - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4]) - no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5]) - incoherent UI/UX [6][7] - schizophrenic behavior in design team [8] - ship unfinished/undesigned features (template manager for LO4.1, and today the start center) All this make me feel desperate about LibreOffice. Really. And the facts are here : http://it.slashdot.org/story/**13/10/20/2310240/forrester-** research-shows-steep-decline-**in-free-office-suite-statshttp://it.slashdot.org/story/13/10/20/2310240/forrester-research-shows-steep-decline-in-free-office-suite-stats As most users start switching to online and mobile version, there is no free office suite to compete GDocs or Office365 or Office for iOS/android. (where is LibreOfficeOnLine ? it would have been one answer). Now back to my silence for a long time. Regards, Michel Renon [1]
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi, This thread makes me wake up from my silence for few months. I've already given up on working in the design team, because it's useless, but I wanted to express some comments and provide a clear answer to K-J. Thanks to Mateusz Zasuwik for his strong feedback ! But I see that there is no real reactions. Le 24/10/2013 13:06, K-J LibreOffice a écrit : Hi Kendy, Mirek, *, Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky: [...] Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-) I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time experience than a 'no recent documents found'... Sorry for not being clear in my request :-( What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in discussion. First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design process : - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies, validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just It would be useful to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more fancy stuff. [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part) are the same. - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread, you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of July, half time of GSOC. - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no blueprint...) - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX brings lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y. Do we - use the proposal Mateusz gave us? While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations. However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a graphist (not a UX designer). - make any proposal of a sc-wallpaper? Sorry, I don't understand what you mean . If it is about proposals to add some background image (ie wallpaper), then it's just some painting on a broken wall, so it's useless. - announce it? No ! - start other things? - left it all? I propose to mix those 2 points : - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the LO4.1 start center - start a new process to design a new new start center : - involve devs, QA team, a11y team - ask some users (specially from MIMO [3]) - should enhance the current start center or create a new one ? - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by every team - only then, start to implement it It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical product, a building...). The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot himself in the foot : - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4]) - no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5]) - incoherent UI/UX [6][7] - schizophrenic behavior in design team [8] - ship unfinished/undesigned features (template manager for LO4.1, and today the start center) All this make me feel desperate about LibreOffice. Really. And the facts are here : http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/10/20/2310240/forrester-research-shows-steep-decline-in-free-office-suite-stats As most users start switching to online and mobile version, there is no free office suite to compete GDocs or Office365 or Office for iOS/android. (where is LibreOfficeOnLine ? it would have been one answer). Now back to my silence for a long time. Regards, Michel Renon [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/GSoC/Ideas#Use_Widget_Layout_for_the_Start_Center [2] http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-July/002218.html [3] MIMO is related to some french administrations that are users of LO. You can ask Arnaud Versini (dev/qa team) who knows some of them. [4] http://www.dgsiegel.net/news/2013_07_27-on_why_removing_features_makes_people_unhappy The last paragraph is abysmal : and since i understand why people react this way, i can smilingly fall back in my chair and enjoy reading mean comments with a bag of popcorn. [5] http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/06/03/making-sense-of-the-new-features-in-libreoffice-4-1/ : When it comes to the reliance of Java, there does not seem to be a master plan either. To be honest, we at LibreOffice do not really like master plans. Why? Because we know that a true Free and Open Source Software project works through its community, and a diverse community of contributors simply has a diverse set of interests otherwise known as “itches to scratch”. Therefore we don’t tell contributors to develop this or that. Patches are submitted and unless they break stuff, do not work with the existing codebase or simply suck, we accept them. That’s why
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hello Michel, I feel I need to address some of your points without talking too much about the StartCenter proposal (which by the way I like very much). Comments inline. Le Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:37:03 +0200, Michel Renon michel.re...@free.fr a écrit : Hi, This thread makes me wake up from my silence for few months. I've already given up on working in the design team, because it's useless, but I wanted to express some comments and provide a clear answer to K-J. Thanks to Mateusz Zasuwik for his strong feedback ! But I see that there is no real reactions. Le 24/10/2013 13:06, K-J LibreOffice a écrit : Hi Kendy, Mirek, *, Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky: [...] Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-) I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time experience than a 'no recent documents found'... Sorry for not being clear in my request :-( What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in discussion. First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design process : - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies, validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just It would be useful to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more fancy stuff. [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part) are the same. It seems you are expecting a professional process of people actually working on a regular basis for that. I don't think that's the case here, and it does not change all the skills and talent the team has. - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread, you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of July, half time of GSOC. We must at least give credit to the Design/UX team for having enforced a proper whiteboards-based process. Again: this is a community, you don't expect an homogeneous team to pop and start working out of the blue. - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no blueprint...) Yup, on the other it's called software freedom - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX brings lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y. Do we - use the proposal Mateusz gave us? While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations. Why are they broken? However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a graphist (not a UX designer). True. But surely we should not burn the said graphist because he's not an UX designer? If you know about an UX designer who could contribute his/her time here, please bring him/her here. - make any proposal of a sc-wallpaper? Sorry, I don't understand what you mean . If it is about proposals to add some background image (ie wallpaper), then it's just some painting on a broken wall, so it's useless. Your judgement, not everyone's. - announce it? No ! - start other things? - left it all? I propose to mix those 2 points : - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the LO4.1 start center - start a new process to design a new new start center : - involve devs, QA team, a11y team The Design and UX team does involve developers already - ask some users (specially from MIMO [3]) MIMO can join this mailing list at anytime. - should enhance the current start center or create a new one ? This is a Free Software project. You can't really stop people from doing what they want and like, and we are a community. - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by every team No. It needs validation by the development team for feasibility, marketing; perhaps NLC if they find something problematic. But asking each and everyone will not work because you will never reach 100% agreement. And FWIW I had my share of disagreements with this team. - only then, start to implement it It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical product, a building...). We don't build a product, we build a community. If you want to build a product, please talk to MS Office, they're pretty good at that. The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot himself in the foot : - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4]) I don't think so, but I assume you know Henry Ford's famous sentence: if I were to listen to my customers I'd still be selling horse carriages. - no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5]) Yes. This is a Free Software Project. Please learn more on how we work. - incoherent
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Kendy, Mirek, *, Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky: [...] Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-) I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time experience than a 'no recent documents found'... Sorry for not being clear in my request :-( What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in discussion. Do we - use the proposal Mateusz gave us? - make any proposal of a sc-wallpaper? - announce it? - start other things? - left it all? -- Grüße k-j Member of TheDocumentFoundation http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/ http://de.libreoffice.org http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Kendy, Sorry for the late reply. On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Jan Holesovsky ke...@suse.cz wrote: Hi Mirek, Mirek M. píše v Ne 13. 10. 2013 v 18:05 +0200: Oh, when I noticed Kendy's mail I thought about something more like that: https://wiki.** documentfoundation.org/File:**Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-** 1600px.png https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-1600px.png A jpeg which can be changed by user like the personas so that even companies can replace it with their logo or so. Given that this picture would appear only if no document has been opened, I don't see the use of allowing customization of the upfront graphic. (That would just encourage people NOT to open any documents -- that's not what we want.) I'd also like to avoid fancy graphics, as it'd be a stark difference to go from no recent files with a fancy graphic to a single thumbnail of a recent file and the rest of the window blank and, as per our minimalism principle, I'd like to keep our UI as simple as possible. As I understand it, it's not a wallpaper Kendy's looking for, but rather an indicator that there are no recent files to display. Care to confirm, Kendy? Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-) I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time experience than a 'no recent documents found'... What do you think about something like https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/3/38/Mirek2-start.png ? On another note, I have some feedback about the dialog: 1) Icons should be sized based on the global icon size setting. If that's impossible, large icons should be used. (BTW, it'd be great if it could use icons from the cmd directory. The icons that are not in there -- I'm thinking the icons for the individual modules, correct me if I'm wrong -- should be added there and should be adjusted to the icon size standard for other toolbar icons in the set.) 2) Icons should have standard layout. (I ripped off the layout in my mockup from gedit, but I'm sure there are official Gnome guidelines somewhere.) 3) It would be excellent if the dialog kept a size separate from the main module windows (i.e. if it didn't transform into module windows). Unlike those windows, the dialog is well-suited for small sizes. 4) Despite my wireframe, I'm now thinking that the best place for the toolbar would be the bottom. The dialog is currently too top-heavy. 5) The tabs look messy -- the active tab has a light gray 1px line on the bottom that shouldn't be there, and the inactive tabs should be separated from the thumbnail area by a 1px border. This applies to the tab widget in general. 6) As I said to you before, it'd be great if the toolbar contents could adapt to the window size, but I understand if that's impossible to do. 7) As I also said before, I'd love to get rid of the menu bar in that window, possibly replacing it with a gear menu at the end of the toolbar (or not replacing it at all). Sorry for not being clear in my request :-( Thank you in advance, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hey Sorry, but he refused and pointed out that welcome sign is in lower left corner. I know that is not what you exactly expected, but it's only thing we have. Maybe he just doesn't have an idea for appropriate performance your concept? I will try to persuade him to take part in others tasks. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Mirek, Mirek M. píše v Ne 13. 10. 2013 v 18:05 +0200: Oh, when I noticed Kendy's mail I thought about something more like that: https://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/File:**Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-** 1600px.pnghttps://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-1600px.png A jpeg which can be changed by user like the personas so that even companies can replace it with their logo or so. Given that this picture would appear only if no document has been opened, I don't see the use of allowing customization of the upfront graphic. (That would just encourage people NOT to open any documents -- that's not what we want.) I'd also like to avoid fancy graphics, as it'd be a stark difference to go from no recent files with a fancy graphic to a single thumbnail of a recent file and the rest of the window blank and, as per our minimalism principle, I'd like to keep our UI as simple as possible. As I understand it, it's not a wallpaper Kendy's looking for, but rather an indicator that there are no recent files to display. Care to confirm, Kendy? Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-) I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time experience than a 'no recent documents found'... Sorry for not being clear in my request :-( Thank you in advance, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Mateusz, Mateusz Zasuwik píše v Po 14. 10. 2013 v 23:01 +0200: I asked him for better mockup and he did this. http://i.imgur.com/iJcSVxU.jpg Beautiful - thanks for this. This is of course easily possible to do, if the Design team consensus is that it should look this way. The best is if you change it yourself in glade, and provide us with the resulting .ui file - try glade share/config/soffice.cfg/sfx/ui/startcenter.ui do the changes, and restart LibreOffice. You should immediately see that. The next time please omit the pejorative parts of your mail - we have provided the snapshots merged it to master early exactly in order to be able to have feedback in time before the feature freeze, so that we still have time to make it perfect for 4.2 :-) Again - thanks for the mockup, I like it. The only missing piece (and that was what I was searching for in the first place) was what to show in case there are no recent documents in the left part of your mockup - can you please provide such a mockup too? Thank you, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
On Tue, 2013-10-15 at 00:33 +0200, Cor Nouws wrote: Mateusz Zasuwik wrote (14-10-13 23:01) Guys, are you serious? Currently Start Center for LO 4.2 is horrible! Is I rather imagine this was done by a GSOC student based on a design provided by the UX team :-) if the result is horrible, I'd want to know how closely it matches the design provided. It is rather expensive chopping and changing this stuff around continually - drawing some new pixels takes a few minutes, re-writing, testing, validating, translating, delivering the new code takes man weeks. Anyhow - this IIRC was Kendy's baby, I'd CC him on any discussion (if you can maintain that CC) :-) ATB, Michael. It is when empty. Therefore the request from Kendy for something else. here any guy from UX Team? My friend is professional designer and when I showed him new LibreOffice, he ask what is purpose of these small icons? Yep... Please reject this awful interface and do something more attractive and intuitive! I asked him for better mockup and he did this. http://i.imgur.com/iJcSVxU.jpg +1 And I think it's usefull too for a next step, the file menu! Michael, something intersting? -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Again - thanks for the mockup, I like it. The only missing piece (and that was what I was searching for in the first place) was what to show in case there are no recent documents in the left part of your mockup - can you please provide such a mockup too? I asked him for new concept but now he is away so please be patient. So what about with the easiest solution? http://i.imgur.com/tt34Dg7.png -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
2013/10/15 Mateusz Zasuwik mzasu...@gmail.com Again - thanks for the mockup, I like it. The only missing piece (and that was what I was searching for in the first place) was what to show in case there are no recent documents in the left part of your mockup - can you please provide such a mockup too? I asked him for new concept but now he is away so please be patient. It is his work. What do you think? http://i.imgur.com/KWpS7tu.jpg http://i.imgur.com/RUfcMlw.jpg -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Mateusz, Mateusz Zasuwik píše v Út 15. 10. 2013 v 13:28 +0200: Again - thanks for the mockup, I like it. The only missing piece (and that was what I was searching for in the first place) was what to show in case there are no recent documents in the left part of your mockup - can you please provide such a mockup too? I asked him for new concept but now he is away so please be patient. It is his work. What do you think? http://i.imgur.com/KWpS7tu.jpg http://i.imgur.com/RUfcMlw.jpg Looks good :-) - just I'd myself would prefer some kind of welcome message or welcome graphics (without text is preferred, as that makes that easier from translation point of view) that was mentioned elsewhere in the thread, over a sterile 'No recent documents'. Do you think your friend could try something in that lines too? Thanks so much, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Mirek, Kendy, *, Am 13.10.2013 18:05, schrieb Mirek M.: [...] Given that this picture would appear only if no document has been opened, I don't see the use of allowing customization of the upfront graphic. (That would just encourage people NOT to open any documents -- that's not what we want.) I'd also like to avoid fancy graphics, as it'd be a stark difference to go from no recent files with a fancy graphic to a single thumbnail of a recent file and the rest of the window blank and, as per our minimalism principle, I'd like to keep our UI as simple as possible. As I understand it, it's not a wallpaper Kendy's looking for, but rather an indicator that there are no recent files to display. Ahh, ok, something more like that: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/1/12/Sc42-nrd-v1-1.png -- Grüße k-j -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hey Guys, are you serious? Currently Start Center for LO 4.2 is horrible! Is here any guy from UX Team? My friend is professional designer and when I showed him new LibreOffice, he ask what is purpose of these small icons? Please reject this awful interface and do something more attractive and intuitive! I asked him for better mockup and he did this. http://i.imgur.com/iJcSVxU.jpg -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
I have to say i really like it and its very similar to that of microsoft office and what microsoft works used to be. On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 11:01 PM, Mateusz Zasuwik mzasu...@gmail.comwrote: Hey Guys, are you serious? Currently Start Center for LO 4.2 is horrible! Is here any guy from UX Team? My friend is professional designer and when I showed him new LibreOffice, he ask what is purpose of these small icons? Please reject this awful interface and do something more attractive and intuitive! I asked him for better mockup and he did this. http://i.imgur.com/iJcSVxU.jpg -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Jonathan Aquilina -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
2013/10/14 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos f...@libreoffice.org Relax, take it easy. The screenshot is OBVIOUSLY not the final look. Thanks for your mock-up, though: I like it :-) Not so obvious for me. Actually I don't understand why the first version of new Start Center is so unintuitive and ugly . There should be some guidelines for developer programming interface. If first alpha is coming with the beginning of month, will developers make with it? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Mateusz Zasuwik wrote (14-10-13 23:01) \ Guys, are you serious? Currently Start Center for LO 4.2 is horrible! Is It is when empty. Therefore the request from Kendy for something else. here any guy from UX Team? My friend is professional designer and when I showed him new LibreOffice, he ask what is purpose of these small icons? Yep... Please reject this awful interface and do something more attractive and intuitive! I asked him for better mockup and he did this. http://i.imgur.com/iJcSVxU.jpg +1 And I think it's usefull too for a next step, the file menu! Michael, something intersting? Cheers, Cor -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi all, Le 14/10/2013 23:01, Mateusz Zasuwik a écrit : Hey Guys, are you serious? Currently Start Center for LO 4.2 is horrible! Is here any guy from UX Team? My friend is professional designer and when I showed him new LibreOffice, he ask what is purpose of these small icons? Please reject this awful interface and do something more attractive and intuitive! I do not dislike the current global design of the StartCenter. I think it will be usable if several technical and UX problems are solved: 1/ keyboard navigation through recent used files should be easier: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70449 2/ make the module icons more visible and understandable, give them a bigger size: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70460 3/ repair the thumbnails generator in the master : https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70428 Best regards. JBF -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi Mirek, Kendy, Am 11.10.2013 18:54, schrieb Mirek M.: I imagine we could just go with something simple likehttps://github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/raw/master/documents/documents-empty.pngor perhaps even a simple label like the No label screen on https://raw.github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/master/nautilus/search-wires.png . (If we go for the former, we should probably use the same icon, given that our new icon sets will be extensions of Gnome's.) What do you think? Oh, when I noticed Kendy's mail I thought about something more like that: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-1600px.png A jpeg which can be changed by user like the personas so that even companies can replace it with their logo or so. Should we start an announce on Facebook and G+? -- Grüße k-j -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi guys, On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:23 AM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol o...@sophia-louise.de wrote: Hi Mirek, Kendy, Am 11.10.2013 18:54, schrieb Mirek M.: I imagine we could just go with something simple likehttps://github.com/gnome-**design-team/gnome-mockups/raw/** master/documents/documents-**empty.pngorhttp://github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/raw/master/documents/documents-empty.pngor perhaps even a simple label like the No label screen on https://raw.github.com/gnome-**design-team/gnome-mockups/** master/nautilus/search-wires.**pnghttps://raw.github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/master/nautilus/search-wires.png . (If we go for the former, we should probably use the same icon, given that our new icon sets will be extensions of Gnome's.) What do you think? Oh, when I noticed Kendy's mail I thought about something more like that: https://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/File:**Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-** 1600px.pnghttps://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-1600px.png A jpeg which can be changed by user like the personas so that even companies can replace it with their logo or so. Given that this picture would appear only if no document has been opened, I don't see the use of allowing customization of the upfront graphic. (That would just encourage people NOT to open any documents -- that's not what we want.) I'd also like to avoid fancy graphics, as it'd be a stark difference to go from no recent files with a fancy graphic to a single thumbnail of a recent file and the rest of the window blank and, as per our minimalism principle, I'd like to keep our UI as simple as possible. As I understand it, it's not a wallpaper Kendy's looking for, but rather an indicator that there are no recent files to display. Care to confirm, Kendy? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi, Maybe you have noticed in the daily builds the new Startcenter that LibreOffice 4.2 will come up with. It is focused on improving the user experience based on the assumption that the user very probably wants to edit documents he/she has edited in the past. But there is a problem - when they open LibreOffice for the first time, there is no recent document, and the Startcenter looks just too empty; see here: http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter.png It would be great to provide default graphics for the case there is no recent document yet - can you please start the call for designs come up with something beautiful helpful that we could use inside the huge white area? :-) It should be resizable, or able to survive resizing. I believe we should be able to get some text into it too, but hypertext might be problematic I'm afraid. Other than that - looking forward to the designs! :-) It would be awesome to have the designs for Alpha1, in case some programming is necessary; so the deadline is 4th November: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.2#4.2.0_release Thank you in advance, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome
Hi Budislav, Am 14.06.2011 01:14, schrieb Budislav Stepanov: I am student of Graphic Designs on University of Novi Sad, part of European University Network, I found this place where I think that i can show my abilities. Primarly I am web designer, but this includes almost all kind of graphic on web or softwere, and the user interface in general.I am willing to help in the further development :) Welcome here. You can inform yourself at our wiki pages and here on ml. There are many open issues on the sectors you named above. As start page have a look: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design The work will come if you want some ;-). But if you want to do something now as a webdesigner please have a look at this threads belonging to our new Extension website: extension website: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/msg04991.html extension logo: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg02184.html -- Grüße k-j -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
