Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Nico Kadel-Garcia]

On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 4:43 PM Chuck Anderson  wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 02:08:25PM -0400, Stephen Smoogen wrote:
> > Personally I would have preferred to call this a new tool versus trying to
> > use dnf name still. It makes it clearer that the break is going to happen.
>
> I propose "qzw".  It's so easy to type on a qwerty keyboard layout.

"Bless you."
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Sandro]

On 28-07-2023 02:04, Casey Jao via devel wrote:

On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 at 13:10, James Ralston 

How about going back to yum? The yum name never completely went away in RHEL 
docs and still lingers in things like yum.repos.d


Let's not re-iterate that discussion. You can read about suggestions for 
a different name as part of the change proposal thread:


https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/users/45153143620951227714880358612473970332/

-- Sandro
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Casey Jao via devel]

> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 at 13:10, James Ralston  Personally I would have preferred to call this a new tool versus trying to
> use dnf name still. It makes it clearer that the break is going to happen.

How about going back to yum? The yum name never completely went away in RHEL 
docs and still lingers in things like yum.repos.d
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Chuck Anderson]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 09:05:08AM +0200, Miroslav Suchý wrote:
> Dne 24. 07. 23 v 22:43 Chuck Anderson napsal(a):
> > I propose "qzw".  It's so easy to type on a qwerty keyboard layout.
> 
> English qwerty layout. Because on Czech layout "z" and "y" are swappe. :)

Oh yeah, we need to find a better name that takes equal effort for trained 
touch-typists on all keyboard layouts.  Gotta work that left pinky finger.  
(Can you tell I'm still bitter because of the yum --> dnf rename?)
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Sandro]

On 26-07-2023 09:35, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 09:05:08AM +0200, Miroslav Suchý wrote:

Dne 24. 07. 23 v 22:43 Chuck Anderson napsal(a):

I propose "qzw".  It's so easy to type on a qwerty keyboard layout.


English qwerty layout. Because on Czech layout "z" and "y" are swapped. :)


Isn't that called qwertz?


But wait, there's more... :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Latin-script_keyboard_layouts

For the inquisitive mind.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 09:05:08AM +0200, Miroslav Suchý wrote:
> Dne 24. 07. 23 v 22:43 Chuck Anderson napsal(a):
> > I propose "qzw".  It's so easy to type on a qwerty keyboard layout.
> 
> English qwerty layout. Because on Czech layout "z" and "y" are swapped. :)

Isn't that called qwertz?

Zbyszek
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Miroslav Suchý]

Dne 24. 07. 23 v 22:43 Chuck Anderson napsal(a):

I propose "qzw".  It's so easy to type on a qwerty keyboard layout.


English qwerty layout. Because on Czech layout "z" and "y" are swapped. :)

--
Miroslav Suchy, RHCA
Red Hat, Manager, Packit and CPT, #brno, #fedora-buildsys
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Jonathan Wright via devel]

That would make for somedifficult verbal conversations.  What do you
propose for the phonetic version? :D

On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 3:43 PM Chuck Anderson  wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 02:08:25PM -0400, Stephen Smoogen wrote:
> > Personally I would have preferred to call this a new tool versus trying
> to
> > use dnf name still. It makes it clearer that the break is going to
> happen.
>
> I propose "qzw".  It's so easy to type on a qwerty keyboard layout.
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Do not reply to spam, report it:
> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
>


-- 
Jonathan Wright
AlmaLinux Foundation
Mattermost: chat 
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Chuck Anderson]

On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 02:08:25PM -0400, Stephen Smoogen wrote:
> Personally I would have preferred to call this a new tool versus trying to
> use dnf name still. It makes it clearer that the break is going to happen.

I propose "qzw".  It's so easy to type on a qwerty keyboard layout.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Kevin Kofler via devel]

Frantisek Zatloukal wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 11:58 AM Peter Robinson 
> wrote:
>> You can evolve APIs with versioning to ensure backwards compatibility
>> while also evolving the usecases.
> 
> Well, this is exactly the case, isn't it? You have dnf4/dnf5, all nice and
> versioned.

It is not. Versioning would mean DNF 5 would support both the DNF 4 and the 
DNF 5 API in parallel, e.g., with namespaces (e.g., import dnf4 vs. import 
dnf5 in Python), prefixed symbol names (e.g., dnf4_* vs. dnf5_* in any 
programming language, even in C where namespaces are not natively 
supported), or ELF symbol versioning (but that makes it hard to compile 
against the compatibility API, symbol versioning is mostly designed for 
runtime binary compatibility), so that code using the DNF 4 API would still 
get the DNF 5 implementation for free, with no porting effort.

What you are doing is providing a compatibility library, which should be the 
minimum standard when a library breaks binary compatibility (because 
otherwise everything not yet ported will just be broken), but is not the 
same as actually providing versioned APIs in the library.

Kevin Kofler
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Stephen Smoogen]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 at 13:10, James Ralston  wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 5:46 AM Miroslav Suchý  wrote:
>
> > Dne 20. 07. 23 v 10:08 Peter Robinson napsal(a):
> >
> > > So everything has to be rewritten across the entire ecosystem to
> > > work with it? Wow, who thinks that's a good idea? It took the
> > > ecosystem long enough to migrate from the yum "API" to dnf and now
> > > they have to do that all over again?
> >
> > "Only dead projects has stable API"
> >
> >  Me.
>
> The yum to dnf transition was supposed to be the “the old API was so
> horribly broken that we had no choice but to throw it away and design
> a new API completely from scratch” event.
>
>
No it wasn't. It was 'the yum API has been rewritten multiple times to meet
different small changes and has become a nightmare to keep things working.
Let's try and build another one still using python but with a bit more
planning.' I saw this as someone who heard Seth Vidal swear about all the
things he wish hadn't added and then other people say the same thing.

I am not going to say that a dead API is a dead project.. libc calls have
been pretty stable for a long time. However, it is stable because a LOT of
people work on it and require it to be stable to make things work. Pretty
much every project below that tends to become more 'fluid' as the
development base gets smaller and the API gets more fluid. It takes a lot
of collective memory and tooling to know why X, Y, and Z are in the code
base, and if they are still needed. Once the people who work on any version
of code 'move on', the ability for others to pick it up and keep it the
same way gets harder and harder. Large codeteams are able to handle this
because A remembers why B did this and thinks changing X,Y, or Z would
break W.

Personally I would have preferred to call this a new tool versus trying to
use dnf name still. It makes it clearer that the break is going to happen.


-- 
Stephen Smoogen, Red Hat Automotive
Let us be kind to one another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle.
-- Ian MacClaren
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Frantisek Zatloukal]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 11:58 AM Peter Robinson 
wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 10:46 AM Miroslav Suchý  wrote:
> > "Only dead projects has stable API"
>
> You can evolve APIs with versioning to ensure backwards compatibility
> while also evolving the usecases.
>

Well, this is exactly the case, isn't it? You have dnf4/dnf5, all nice and
versioned.


-- 

Best regards / S pozdravem,

František Zatloukal
Senior Quality Engineer
Red Hat
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[James Ralston]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 5:46 AM Miroslav Suchý  wrote:

> Dne 20. 07. 23 v 10:08 Peter Robinson napsal(a):
>
> > So everything has to be rewritten across the entire ecosystem to
> > work with it? Wow, who thinks that's a good idea? It took the
> > ecosystem long enough to migrate from the yum "API" to dnf and now
> > they have to do that all over again?
>
> "Only dead projects has stable API"
>
>  Me.

The yum to dnf transition was supposed to be the “the old API was so
horribly broken that we had no choice but to throw it away and design
a new API completely from scratch” event.

Every software project gets one of those (1).

Demand another, and users / downstream developers will (rightly)
question why the project’s developers weren’t competent to ensure
their first API rewrite didn’t preclude the necessity of any others.

A flippant retort is not an appropriate way to handle this criticism.

(1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcLztkzy3d4
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Kevin Kofler via devel]

Miroslav Suchý wrote:
> "Only dead projects has stable API"

Sorry, but this is just nonsense. APIs can be appended to, even rewrites can 
be made API-compatible if developers actually care about that. Even if the 
internal code is completely different, the public API can be retained, at 
least if it was properly designed to begin with. (Things such as 
unencapsulated fields can be dealbreakers.)

And besides:
> Subject: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API
> "Only dead projects has stable API"
Hence, DNF5-5.0.1 is dead. ;-) So either that statement is true, or one of 
the two quoted ones is false.

Kevin Kofler
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Peter Robinson]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 10:46 AM Miroslav Suchý  wrote:
>
> Dne 20. 07. 23 v 10:08 Peter Robinson napsal(a):
> > The dnf5 API has similar primitives (Base, Goal, Package, etc.), but it's
> >> not at all compatible.
>
> It may be worth to add the link to the API:
>
> https://dnf5.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/index.html
>
> > So everything has to be rewritten across the entire ecosystem to work
> > with it? Wow, who thinks that's a good idea? It took the ecosystem
> > long enough to migrate from the yum "API" to dnf and now they have to
> > do that all over again?
>
> "Only dead projects has stable API"

You can evolve APIs with versioning to ensure backwards compatibility
while also evolving the usecases.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Miroslav Suchý]

Dne 20. 07. 23 v 10:08 Peter Robinson napsal(a):

The dnf5 API has similar primitives (Base, Goal, Package, etc.), but it's

not at all compatible.


It may be worth to add the link to the API:

https://dnf5.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/index.html


So everything has to be rewritten across the entire ecosystem to work
with it? Wow, who thinks that's a good idea? It took the ecosystem
long enough to migrate from the yum "API" to dnf and now they have to
do that all over again?


"Only dead projects has stable API"

        Me.

--
Miroslav Suchy, RHCA
Red Hat, Manager, Packit and CPT, #brno, #fedora-buildsys
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Peter Robinson]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 11:35 PM Maxwell G  wrote:
>
>
> 2023-07-19T13:39:57Z Peter Robinson :
>
> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 2:20 PM Nicola Sella  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >> Yesterday, DNF5 5.1.0 was released upstream[1] and in rawhide[2]. This
> >> update makes DNF5's API stable. This means that changes to the API
> >> won't happen in stable Fedora releases.
> >
> > How compatible is this API with the old dnf4 API?
> The dnf5 API has similar primitives (Base, Goal, Package, etc.), but it's
> not at all compatible.

So everything has to be rewritten across the entire ecosystem to work
with it? Wow, who thinks that's a good idea? It took the ecosystem
long enough to migrate from the yum "API" to dnf and now they have to
do that all over again?
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Maxwell G]

2023-07-19T13:39:57Z Peter Robinson :


On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 2:20 PM Nicola Sella  wrote:


Hi all,
Yesterday, DNF5 5.1.0 was released upstream[1] and in rawhide[2]. This 
update makes DNF5's API stable. This means that changes to the API 
won't happen in stable Fedora releases.


How compatible is this API with the old dnf4 API?
The dnf5 API has similar primitives (Base, Goal, Package, etc.), but it's 
not at all compatible.

--
Maxwell G (@gotmax23)
Pronouns: He/They
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Peter Robinson]

On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 2:20 PM Nicola Sella  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> Yesterday, DNF5 5.1.0 was released upstream[1] and in rawhide[2]. This update 
> makes DNF5's API stable. This means that changes to the API won't happen in 
> stable Fedora releases.

How compatible is this API with the old dnf4 API?
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

DNF5-5.0.1 has a stable API

[Nicola Sella]

Hi all,
Yesterday, DNF5 5.1.0 was released upstream[1] and in rawhide[2]. This
update makes DNF5's API stable. This means that changes to the API won't
happen in stable Fedora releases.
Cheers,
Nicola

[1]: https://github.com/rpm-software-management/dnf5/releases/tag/5.1.0
[2]: https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2023-ba32d718a9
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue