Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 06:14:37PM +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Well, I see two (almost orthogonal) lines of argumentation here: > * Matthew and others have proposed moving off the mailing list due to > alleged shortcomings that mailing lists have by design. The issue is that >

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 08:15:28AM -0400, Solomon Peachy via devel wrote: > On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 10:47:15AM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > Our discourse instance is hosted for us by discourse. > > We shouldn't have to do maint on it, but we will have to do moderation, > > etc. > > So... if

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Kevin Fenzi wrote: > I... don't understand how you reached that conclusion. > > My current understanding is: > * Matthew posted about a number of issues / concerns with mailing lists. > These concerns are completely 100% unrelated to our current list > infrastructure. If we had the very latest

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Kevin Fenzi wrote: > I think you are conflating contributors with "packagers". We are talking about moving things off the devel list, which is mainly a packaging mailing list. > Our discourse instance is hosted for us by discourse. > We shouldn't have to do maint on it, but we will have to do

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 10:47:15AM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > Our discourse instance is hosted for us by discourse. > We shouldn't have to do maint on it, but we will have to do moderation, > etc. So... if maintaining discourse is too much overhead but it's okay to pay someone else to handle,

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

[long discussion elided] It has to be said I'm very much agreeing with Kevin Kofler on this. Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com virt-p2v converts physical machines to

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Forgive me for answering 3 posts in one here... On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 05:57:43AM +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > But what if the major influx of new contributors that you proponents of this > proposal are hoping for never arrives? (Something I think is quite likely to > happen,

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 01:39:00PM +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > > Stephen Smoogen wrote: > >> So let us say it is voted on and the answer is keep the mailing lists. > >> What are the next steps to fixing the mail system which is held together > >> by

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 07:01:15 -0400 Stephen Smoogen wrote: > I am NOT a proponent of this proposal. I don't want to go to > Discourse. Web interfaces like that cause me cognitive pain and > grumpiness to use longer than a few minutes. As such I know my > involvement with Fedora will go down

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Kevin Kofler via devel writes: > Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > >> Stephen Smoogen wrote: >>> So let us say it is voted on and the answer is keep the mailing lists. >>> What are the next steps to fixing the mail system which is held together >>> by duct-tape and bailing wire? >> [etc.] >> >>

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 07:01:15AM -0400, Stephen Smoogen wrote: > breaking mail altogether. My frustration and anger comes from the fact that > I spent most of the last 5 years assuming that it was somebody else's > problem and they would take care of it so I could focus on keeping other > things

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Thu, 2023-04-20 at 14:56 -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > So, I've been using email and lists for... 25+ years now. Same here… > For me personally (and I think many of the other survivors you > mention) > we have carefully tuned filters and email clients and can read/reply > to > lists with ease

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > Stephen Smoogen wrote: >> So let us say it is voted on and the answer is keep the mailing lists. >> What are the next steps to fixing the mail system which is held together >> by duct-tape and bailing wire? > [etc.] > > Thanks for confirming that the decision was

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 at 23:58, Kevin Kofler via devel < devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote: > Stephen Smoogen wrote: > > I may be in that list of toning down, but that is OK. Look it's really > > time for new people to come in and break things. It is the only way they > > really learn if

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:28:41AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 03:33:28PM -0400, Solomon Peachy via devel wrote: > > Honestly, if a "how to configure discourse to mimic the MUA-managed > > mailing list experience (ie not having to log into a web site after the > >

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Adam Williamson wrote: > A poll like this would have an inherent problem: it's ineffective to > have *only* the people who are already in a place vote on whether a > measure to get new people into the place is a good idea. Yet this approach is working fine for, e.g., Debian. > This is the same

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Stephen Smoogen wrote: > So let us say it is voted on and the answer is keep the mailing lists. > What are the next steps to fixing the mail system which is held together > by duct-tape and bailing wire? [etc.] Thanks for confirming that the decision was actually already made elsewhere and that

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Stephen Smoogen wrote: > I may be in that list of toning down, but that is OK. Look it's really > time for new people to come in and break things. It is the only way they > really learn if something is something that should be really avoided or > was a taboo we had from the 1990's which we can't

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 12:49:02AM +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > Matthew Miller wrote: > > I've written this: > > https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/guide-to-interacting-with-this-site-by-email/25960 > > and I'd love feedback on it. > > Asking feedback from users who are not using

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 4/26/23 08:42, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: As I see it, the main roadblocks for new packagers are: * accepting the FPCA, * getting sponsored, * learning the Packaging Guidelines, and * getting their package(s) through review, and that last point can be a roadblock even for existing

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 4/26/23 11:25, Matthew Miller wrote: Use j/k to scroll up and down (ah, vi, your legacy will live forever) According to Wikipedia, it's actually the ADM-3A: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-3A#Legacy I recently learned this, and find it fascinating ☺

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Matthew Miller wrote: > I've written this: > > https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/guide-to-interacting-with-this-site-by-email/25960 > > and I'd love feedback on it. Asking feedback from users who are not using Discourse… on Discourse (!) is absurd and the best way to not get any answers.

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Matthew Miller wrote: > I actually love the idea of a Discourse-to-NNTP bridge. But is it ever going to happen? What is sure is that Discourse's e-mail notification system cannot be used for this, or at least it is not suitable for the existing e-mail to NNTP bridges. So somebody would need to

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:51:33AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 04:28:16PM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > Could we have the same graph for discourse (and Fedora telegram and Fedora > > matrix)? It'd be interesting to see what percentage of active

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 03:29:34PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 03:04:26PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > I have been pondering if we could perhaps setup a public-inbox read-only > > mirror of the posts to discussion. ( > > https://public-inbox.org/README.html ). It would

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 at 15:28, Maxwell G wrote: > On Wed Apr 26, 2023 at 18:04 +0200, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 20/04/2023 23:20, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new > > > > I think such serious questions should be put to a

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Wed, 2023-04-26 at 19:27 +, Maxwell G wrote: > On Wed Apr 26, 2023 at 18:04 +0200, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 20/04/2023 23:20, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new > > > > I think such serious questions should be put to a

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Wed Apr 26, 2023 at 18:04 +0200, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 20/04/2023 23:20, Matthew Miller wrote: > > It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new > > I think such serious questions should be put to a vote. Not a FESCo > vote, but a vote for all Fedora

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 8:43 AM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Josh Boyer wrote: > > Ah. May or may not. That gives me hope at least. > > Well, considering that we have hundreds of existing contributors, who all > may or may not be willing to adapt to a platform that is clearly not >

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 4/26/23 16:04, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: On 20/04/2023 23:20, Matthew Miller wrote: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new I think such serious questions should be put to a vote. Not a FESCo vote, but a vote for all Fedora contributors (can be combined with

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 20/04/2023 23:20, Matthew Miller wrote: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new I think such serious questions should be put to a vote. Not a FESCo vote, but a vote for all Fedora contributors (can be combined with the next FESCo elections). -- Sincerely,

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:20:11AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote: > So... this brings up something about this whole thread that I've avoided > but think does matter: I understand that you are the Fedora Project > Leader, but it seems like a lot of this is being done based on your > personal decisions.

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 04:34:22AM +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > And in particular, NNTP is not supported at all, and the way the e-mail > notifications work does not lend itself to NNTP gatewaying over Gmane. Well, email (and Mailman3 and Hyperkitty and Postorious) do not support NNTP.

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 12:38:46PM +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > In some instances at least, you can select the text in the fragment you > > are replying to, and a quote button will appear. I at least found that > > quite discoverable. > > You have to use your mouse to do it,

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Once upon a time, Matthew Miller said: > I turned off the mailing list mode on purpose. So... this brings up something about this whole thread that I've avoided but think does matter: I understand that you are the Fedora Project Leader, but it seems like a lot of this is being done based on your

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 10:49:03AM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: > Have you considered outsourcing email (list) operations instead? We looked into a hosted Pony Mail a while ago. But (leaving aside "I don't think that solves everything I want to address"), hosted solutions are difficult because if

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 04:28:16PM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > Could we have the same graph for discourse (and Fedora telegram and Fedora > matrix)? It'd be interesting to see what percentage of active communicating > users are active on the mailing list. I'm not sure how to get

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 06:11:45PM +, Randy Barlow via devel wrote: > On 4/21/23 14:05, Matthew Miller wrote: > >Accessiblity is important to Fedora, and I take this seriously. For > >Discourse, hit the ? key to bring up the page describing keyboard shortcuts. > > One thing I don't care for

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 03:33:28PM -0400, Solomon Peachy via devel wrote: > Honestly, if a "how to configure discourse to mimic the MUA-managed > mailing list experience (ie not having to log into a web site after the > initial configuration)" document is produced, that's probaby sufficient >

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 at 08:44, Kevin Kofler via devel < devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote: > Josh Boyer wrote: > > Ah. May or may not. That gives me hope at least. > > Well, considering that we have hundreds of existing contributors, who all > may or may not be willing to adapt to a platform

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 02:42:56PM +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > And as I already answered, I think this is completely backwards. If you want > to newly join a project, you learn their way to do things and adapt to it. > If, on the other hand, you are already involved in a project and

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Dne 20. 04. 23 v 23:20 Matthew Miller napsal(a): I know this is a big change, but, hear me out… It is a big change. But I am +1 So far I was able to configure notification in Discourse to send me email and I track new in mail client. The Discourse can filter lots of emails that are +1 or -1.

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Josh Boyer wrote: > Ah. May or may not. That gives me hope at least. Well, considering that we have hundreds of existing contributors, who all may or may not be willing to adapt to a platform that is clearly not designed for them (Discourse is very strongly newbie-centric, see the

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 10:42 PM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Josh Boyer wrote: > > I want to make sure I understand that statement. You're saying you > > will actively walk away from Fedora because you would have to change > > the manner in which you discuss things? > > I am saying I and

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 25-04-2023 18:58, Kevin Fenzi wrote: As you can see, it doesn't take any great inventions to do this. The email standards already contain the necessary features. They just need to be implemented, if the Discourse developers are serious about supporting interaction by email. well, as you well

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Matthew Miller wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 07:00:20PM +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote: >> - Change Proposals could be *announced* on the devel list, but >> discussion could happen in a linked topic on Discourse > > This is basically my proposal, although I suggest devel-announce rather > than

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Josh Boyer wrote: > I want to make sure I understand that statement. You're saying you > will actively walk away from Fedora because you would have to change > the manner in which you discuss things? I am saying I and many other existing contributors may or may not walk away from Fedora

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 4/25/23 14:33, Solomon Peachy via devel wrote: >> Honestly, if a "how to configure discourse to mimic the MUA-managed >> mailing list experience (ie not having to log into a web site after the >> initial configuration)" document is produced, that's probaby sufficient >> to overcome most of

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 02:00:02PM +0200, Kamil Paral wrote: > This is a part I agree with. I've been very annoyed by the gamified > achievements, and I haven't found a way to completely shut them off. > Fortunately they stopped appearing after some time, perhaps I earned all of > them already. Or

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 07:00:20PM +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote: > - Change Proposals could be *announced* on the devel list, but > discussion could happen in a linked topic on Discourse This is basically my proposal, although I suggest devel-announce rather than devel-list, because otherwise the

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 4/25/23 14:33, Solomon Peachy via devel wrote: Honestly, if a "how to configure discourse to mimic the MUA-managed mailing list experience (ie not having to log into a web site after the initial configuration)" document is produced, that's probaby sufficient to overcome most of these

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 04:05:41PM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > > And this includes both mentoring them to be able to contribute, but also > > accepting the fact that new people can bring new ideas, and we should > > provide them space to work on them and not just expect them to

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 02:59:22PM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > That's certainly a choice one could make. Personally, I would not > prioritize keeping my bespoke email setup intact over working with a > community on a project I care about. My "besoke email setup" benefits *me* and my

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 03:04:26PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > I have been pondering if we could perhaps setup a public-inbox read-only > mirror of the posts to discussion. ( > https://public-inbox.org/README.html ). It would take a bit of work, as > I think we would need to make a non priv user,

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 05:23:34PM +, Mattia Verga via devel wrote: > - I'm also skeptical about having all mailing lists under one Discourse > category (I suppose it will be "Project Discussions") and use tags to > filter them. I think an high volume list such as devel should gone under >

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 05:40:41PM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > I think this is a great place to start. If it works, wonderful. If it > doesn't work, then we can delay/abort/redesign any later steps. Exactly. > > > Second, I think other FESCo-related conversations should move. I

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 10:21 PM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Kamil Paral wrote: > > I've spent more than a decade perfecting my email filters and I have a > > setup that works for me very well. I dislike certain aspects of mailing > > lists (cross-posting, top-posting, reply-to, etc, which

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, 2023-04-25 at 10:42 -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 07:25:06PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: > > * Kevin Fenzi: > > > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 10:24:37AM -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > > > > On Tue, Apr 25 2023 at 11:32:14 AM +0200, Florian Weimer > > > > wrote:

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 07:25:06PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: > * Kevin Fenzi: > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 10:24:37AM -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > >> On Tue, Apr 25 2023 at 11:32:14 AM +0200, Florian Weimer > >> wrote: > >> > This option has been disabled in the Fedora instance, though.

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

* Kevin Fenzi: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 10:24:37AM -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 25 2023 at 11:32:14 AM +0200, Florian Weimer >> wrote: >> > This option has been disabled in the Fedora instance, though. There >> > should be “Mailing list mode“ and “Enable mailing list mode” at

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 6:29 PM stan via devel wrote: > (snip) > > I've read all the responses to the announcement, and I don't think I've > seen an architectural analysis. > What communication requirements does a project like Fedora need? > What is the theoretical optimal process for each

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 12:12:05AM +0200, Björn Persson wrote: > Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 11:21:58PM +0200, Björn Persson wrote: > > > Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > > > We could probibly come up with some > > > > better way to start new topics/discussions > > > > > > Yes I

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 10:24:37AM -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25 2023 at 11:32:14 AM +0200, Florian Weimer > wrote: > > This option has been disabled in the Fedora instance, though. There > > should be “Mailing list mode“ and “Enable mailing list mode” at the end > > of this

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Mon, 24 Apr 2023 19:47:07 +0200 Kamil Paral wrote: > On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 11:21 PM Matthew Miller > wrote: > > > I propose that we transition devel list, and eventually most of our > > mailing lists, to Fedora Discussion (our Discourse-powered forum). > project is going to die

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25 2023 at 11:32:14 AM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: This option has been disabled in the Fedora instance, though. There should be “Mailing list mode“ and “Enable mailing list mode” at the end of this page:

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 4:21 AM Kevin Kofler via devel < devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote: > * An absurd assumption that everyone is new to the Internet, leading to > lots > of ridiculous gamified spam "achievements" for basic things such as > replying > to a thread, with which you get

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 12:30, Florian Weimer wrote: > * Dominik Mierzejewski: > > > You don't have threaded replies, either. And quoting the post you're > > replying to is entirely non-intuitive. It took me a while to discover > > that you have to click on the "speech bubble" icon inside

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

* Dominik Mierzejewski: > You don't have threaded replies, either. And quoting the post you're > replying to is entirely non-intuitive. It took me a while to discover > that you have to click on the "speech bubble" icon inside the editor that > opens after you click reply. In some instances at

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Friday, 21 April 2023 at 20:17, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 11:00 -0400, Solomon Peachy via devel wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 04:55:00PM +0200, Emmanuel Seyman wrote: > > > I agree there's a huge lack of netiquette in Fedora's mailing lists, > > > with wholesale

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

* Kevin Fenzi: > Yes, you absolutely can interact with discourse via email (mostly). This option has been disabled in the Fedora instance, though. There should be “Mailing list mode“ and “Enable mailing list mode” at the end of this page:

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

* Kevin Fenzi: > Right. I don't think we have many (or possibly any) lists that still > hold email from non-members. The flood of spam is just too high for that > for the last N years. So, almost all our lists are set to reject non > member posts. :( That's really unfortunate because it makes it

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 25/04/2023 09:40, Florian Weimer wrote: * Jarek Prokop: Personally, I have accounts on many, many Discourse instances, but I don't think there is a single one I read somewhat regularly. I find the mailing list mode and the notifications rather unpredictable. Maybe an alternative client

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

* Stephen Smoogen: > It is time to explore other options. One of them is the proposal that > Matthew and I guess the Council have come up with. It is using a > resource which is paid for, has an open source background, and is > willing to make some changes to better accommodate other workflows.

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

* Jarek Prokop: >> Personally, I have accounts on many, many Discourse instances, but I >> don't think there is a single one I read somewhat regularly. I find the >> mailing list mode and the notifications rather unpredictable. Maybe an >> alternative client could help (nndiscourse?), but as

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Kamil Paral wrote: > I've spent more than a decade perfecting my email filters and I have a > setup that works for me very well. I dislike certain aspects of mailing > lists (cross-posting, top-posting, reply-to, etc, which just can't work > well when everyone has to be vigilant all the time to do

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 11:21:58PM +0200, Björn Persson wrote: > > Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > > We could probibly come up with some > > > better way to start new topics/discussions > > > > Yes I think I can come up with a better way. Give each tag its own > > email address,

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 4/23/23 18:32, Kevin Fenzi wrote: You can write the tag after the plus sign if that makes it easier to implement. Instead of"fedoraproject+newto...@discoursemail.com" the address could be"fedoraproject+de...@discoursemail.com" or maybe "fedoraproject+devel/newto...@discoursemail.com". Or

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 11:21 PM Matthew Miller wrote: > I propose that we transition devel list, and eventually most of our > mailing lists, to Fedora Discussion (our Discourse-powered forum). > I've spent more than a decade perfecting my email filters and I have a setup that works for me very

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Mon, 24 Apr 2023 at 09:38, Simo Sorce wrote: > On Sat, 2023-04-22 at 12:16 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Sat, 2023-04-22 at 10:37 -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 02:30:45PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 23:20 +0200, Florian Weimer

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 1:24 AM Benson Muite wrote: > > Thanks, this is helpful. Can you make the scripts/programs you used for > these available to allow for a more detailed analysis? No, because I literally went to each page of the archives and copied the numbers into a spreadsheet. If you

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sat, 2023-04-22 at 12:16 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Sat, 2023-04-22 at 10:37 -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 02:30:45PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 23:20 +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: > > > > > > > > > For lists that are active, the

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 15:39 -0500, Carl George wrote: > As Matthew stated, Ben has measured it and fewer people are > participating on the mailing list over time.  We are already leaving > out many contributors. This is an interpretation, but are we sure we are missing them because the mailing

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Matthew Miller wrote: > I propose that we transition devel list, and eventually most of our > mailing lists, to Fedora Discussion (our Discourse-powered forum). You are 19 days late for April Fools! Discourse is an absolute pain in the neck because it not only requires JavaScript to be able to

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

In my opinion, in this kind of big change, it's important for us to make things reversible, and to consider a possibility for us to go back. I think it's better for us to keep the infra of the mailing list for a while. When we migrate the devel@ to the discourse, we should still keep to manage

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Dne 24. 04. 23 v 2:32 Kevin Fenzi napsal(a): On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 11:21:58PM +0200, Björn Persson wrote: Kevin Fenzi wrote: We could probibly come up with some better way to start new topics/discussions Yes I think I can come up with a better way. Give each tag its own email address, like

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 4/21/23 23:38, Ben Cotton wrote: On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 4:05 PM Maxwell G wrote: What evidence shows that the group is ever shrinking? I often see Self Introduction posts and new people interacting with project. I suppose that whether they continue interacting afterwards is another

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 4/21/23 22:07, Matthew Miller wrote: On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:54:09AM -0400, JT wrote: So I'm interested by what you bring up here. Have you run into situations where someone wanted to contribute to development but was unwilling to use a mailing list? With a community as big as Fedora

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 11:21:58PM +0200, Björn Persson wrote: > Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > We could probibly come up with some > > better way to start new topics/discussions > > Yes I think I can come up with a better way. Give each tag its own > email address, like a mailing list. That was very

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 11:21:19PM +0200, Björn Persson wrote: > Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > One bug I hit setting this up this weekend... some (but not all) of the > > categories appear to have newlines in the List-ID: header. ;( > > > > ie, > > > > List-ID: Fedora Discussion | Ask Fedora Ask in

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Kevin Fenzi wrote: > We could probibly come up with some > better way to start new topics/discussions Yes I think I can come up with a better way. Give each tag its own email address, like a mailing list. That was very easy to come up with. You can write the tag after the plus sign if that makes

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Kevin Fenzi wrote: > One bug I hit setting this up this weekend... some (but not all) of the > categories appear to have newlines in the List-ID: header. ;( > > ie, > > List-ID: Fedora Discussion | Ask Fedora Ask in English > > > Hopefully this is a bug that can be fixed... > > So the

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Hello Matthew, everyone, The TL;DR version of my thoughts and suggestions on this topic: implement the improvements suggested so far as best as possible, so that the people who want to interact with Discourse through their mail reader can do so with little to no friction. Clearly define and

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 4/21/23 14:05, Matthew Miller wrote: Accessiblity is important to Fedora, and I take this seriously. For Discourse, hit the ? key to bring up the page describing keyboard shortcuts. One thing I don't care for when it comes to web apps and keyboard shortcuts is that they are non-standard.

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Il 20/04/23 23:20, Matthew Miller ha scritto: > It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new > === > > ... > Matthew Miller > > Fedora Project Leader I've tried to follow up all the replies this post has caused, but

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 04:54:48PM +, Mattia Verga via devel wrote: > Il 23/04/23 17:01, Björn Persson ha scritto: > > > > You let the quarrel go this far before you even bothered to mention > > that? You're clearly not serious about selling the email features of > > Discourse. > > > > You're

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 03:04:26PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > > So I've been using the email bridge for a while (I think since we set it > up) and it's got it's issues for sure, but I am not sure if it's as bad > as folks fear. > >

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 05:01:53PM +0200, Björn Persson wrote: > Matthew Miller wrote: > > There _are_ email notifications, > > You keep talking about "notifications". I don't want a notification > saying "somebody said something; run our Javascript program to find out > what it was". I want the

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Il 23/04/23 17:01, Björn Persson ha scritto: > > You let the quarrel go this far before you even bothered to mention > that? You're clearly not serious about selling the email features of > Discourse. > > You're trying to convince email users that your preferred communication > program is better

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Sun, Apr 23 2023 at 05:01:53 PM +0200, Björn Persson wrote: But some people in this thread talk as if it's possible to get the actual messages by email. I even see some hints that a proper tree view might be possible. But many others say the email features of Discourse are no good. The

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Matthew Miller wrote: > It is also possible to enable > new topics by email, but that's vulernable to impersonation (and spam) so > if we enable that there probably will be a moderation step. Email signed with OpenPGP/MIME solves the impersonation and spam problems. A message could be allowed to

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