Re: Dia Schemas/DTDs
Hi again, First of all, thanks for your replies! We have concluded that Dia is not the way to go for us. The main reasons for this are: - Dia is not very extensible. For example, adding extra attributes to shapes to put extra meta data in is not possible within XML boundaries. - Validation of the XML source files is not possible. The problem with this is that you can not safely write Dia XML in other editors, like a XML/text-editor. Additionally, in my opinion, all XML documents should be validatable. Like James K. Lowden said earlier, it wouldn't be too easy for us to contribute fixes to cover our critism. Maybe there are internal architectural changes needed, well that's not easy for an outsider and would possibly take too much time. To draw our network diagrams, we looking at RDF/GraphViz/IsaViz as alternative.Information about RDF: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/01/24/rdf.html http://www.w3.org/RDF/ Describing our network in RDF is possible because a descriptional view of a network consists all of meta data. Example: http://www.w3.org/2001/Talks/0506-semwai/sirpac-image.html Durk On 2002.11.06 22:40 James K. Lowden wrote: On 06 Nov 2002 12:26:43 -0600, Lars Clausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Durk Strooisma wrote: We noticed that Dia doens't make use of DTDs or XML Schemas (for example to validate Dia XML documents). Even correct DTDs or XML Schemas aren't provided, which would be handy to validate Dia XML documents within XML authoring tools. I don't know enough about DTDs and XML Schemas to judge whether this is a useful thing. We do have DTDs, but they're not used by Dia. Durk makes a good point. It would be useful, and it wouldn't be easy for an outsider to contribute. Forgive me if I'm belaboring the obvious. If Dia relied on its DTD to validate a file prior to/while loading it, then the DTD would be assured of being a good measure of a good Dia file. Not that I know much about stylesheet validation either, but isn't it fairly computationally expensive, and thus typically only done as a sanity check apart from the application? That would give non-Dia programs a benchmark for creating Dia files. And it would assist non-Dia programs in interpreting Dia files. (BTW, do I I agree that formalizing a stylesheet validation would probably be a good thing. I have a hacky Perl script right now that writes a Dia file from a data dictionary, and stylesheet validation would help pinpoint errors in the Dia file caused by errors in my Perl code. Andy ___ Dia-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list FAQ at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/faq.html Main page at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia ___ Dia-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list FAQ at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/faq.html Main page at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia
Re: Dia Schemas/DTDs
We have concluded that Dia is not the way to go for us. The main reasons for this are: - Dia is not very extensible. For example, adding extra attributes to shapes to put extra meta data in is not possible within XML boundaries. In my opinon as well, we need to completly change the xml layer of dia. - Validation of the XML source files is not possible. The problem with this is that you can not safely write Dia XML in other editors, like a XML/text-editor. Additionally, in my opinion, all XML documents should be validatable. well by using rdf, we should be able to handle this. Like James K. Lowden said earlier, it wouldn't be too easy for us to contribute fixes to cover our critism. Maybe there are internal architectural changes needed, well that's not easy for an outsider and would possibly take too much time. Please work with me to fix these problems. To draw our network diagrams, we looking at RDF/GraphViz/IsaViz as alternative.Information about RDF: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/01/24/rdf.html http://www.w3.org/RDF/ I am working on vcg, a free gpl replacment for graphviz this will be bound to the librdf data layer as well for layout and communication with the dia. Describing our network in RDF is possible because a descriptional view of a network consists all of meta data. I am planning out a librdf layer for dia right now. Currently we have a beta-test for the librdf layer in the gcc. when that is stabilized, then we will add it into the dia and vcg. dont give up on dia just yet, please help me create the next version of dia with the needed features. mike = James Michael DuPont http://introspector.sourceforge.net/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Dia-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list FAQ at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/faq.html Main page at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia
Re: Dia Schemas/DTDs
On 2002.11.06 22:40 James K. Lowden wrote: On 06 Nov 2002 12:26:43 -0600, Lars Clausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Durk Strooisma wrote: We noticed that Dia doens't make use of DTDs or XML Schemas (for example to validate Dia XML documents). Even correct DTDs or XML Schemas aren't provided, which would be handy to validate Dia XML documents within XML authoring tools. I don't know enough about DTDs and XML Schemas to judge whether this is a useful thing. We do have DTDs, but they're not used by Dia. Durk makes a good point. It would be useful, and it wouldn't be easy for an outsider to contribute. Forgive me if I'm belaboring the obvious. If Dia relied on its DTD to validate a file prior to/while loading it, then the DTD would be assured of being a good measure of a good Dia file. Not that I know much about stylesheet validation either, but isn't it fairly computationally expensive, and thus typically only done as a sanity check apart from the application? That would give non-Dia programs a benchmark for creating Dia files. And it would assist non-Dia programs in interpreting Dia files. (BTW, do I I agree that formalizing a stylesheet validation would probably be a good thing. I have a hacky Perl script right now that writes a Dia file from a data dictionary, and stylesheet validation would help pinpoint errors in the Dia file caused by errors in my Perl code. Andy ___ Dia-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list FAQ at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/faq.html Main page at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia
Re: Dia Schemas/DTDs
On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Durk Strooisma wrote: Hi, We noticed that Dia doens't make use of DTDs or XML Schemas (for example to validate Dia XML documents). Even correct DTDs or XML Schemas aren't provided, which would be handy to validate Dia XML documents within XML authoring tools. Probably there's a good reason doing it the way the Dia-people do right now. Performance? Complexity? For us it would be very pleasent if Dia uses DTDs or Schemas for extending the program's functionality. Of course extending a DTD or Schema needs to be supported in the program itself too. But when implemented, functionality can be extending without modifying source code. Example: it would be very nice to be able to add more attributes to shapes. The existing shape attributes (like name and textbox) don't offer the ability to create shapes for network diagrams like computer with attributes like IP and MAC-address. Maybe that's a good idea to consider... I don't know enough about DTDs and XML Schemas to judge whether this is a useful thing. We do have DTDs, but they're not used by Dia. --Lars -- Lars Clausen (http://shasta.cs.uiuc.edu/~lrclause)| Hårdgrim of Numenor I do not agree with a word that you say, but I | will defend to the death your right to say it. | Where are we going, and --Evelyn Beatrice Hall paraphrasing Voltaire | what's with the handbasket? ___ Dia-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list FAQ at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/faq.html Main page at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia
Re: Dia Schemas/DTDs
On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Durk Strooisma wrote: Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 19:19:16 +0100 (CET) From: Durk Strooisma [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Dia Schemas/DTDs Hi, We noticed that Dia doens't make use of DTDs or XML Schemas (for example to validate Dia XML documents). Even correct DTDs or XML Schemas aren't provided, which would be handy to validate Dia XML documents within XML authoring tools. volunteers welcome!!! Probably there's a good reason doing it the way the Dia-people do right now. Performance? Complexity? Those of us interested in Dia seem to suffer primariliy from lack of time and also lack of expertise. Until very recently i had loads of time but not enough expertise. I have been reading up on XSLT but have found it very confusing but I do hope to get the hang of it and try and do some things with the XML conversion system in OpenOffice (the Draw component is sweet). I hope to return to my studies next year but for the forseeable future i will only have a little amount of time at the weekends to spend on Dia, and i will be sticking to what i enjoy and best at and that is drawing lots and lots of shapes. For us it would be very pleasent if Dia uses DTDs or Schemas for extending the program's functionality. Of course extending a DTD or Schema needs to be supported in the program itself too. But when implemented, functionality can be extending without modifying source code. Help us to help you. We all like standards the problem is that there are so many of them and so little time. Personally i really want to see Dia use much more SVG, in fact the dia .shape files seem pretty good to me. i was surprised how the .dia files work, how little information they actually contain, it only contain references to objects so if someone deletes the contents of your shapes/ folder or deletes an embedded image then the diagram wont work. After SVG support OpenOffice support would be brilliant ... so little time. Please do get involved. Submit patches, makes suggestions, sponsor a devloper, file bugs in bugzilla, every little helps. Sincerely Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ ___ Dia-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list FAQ at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/faq.html Main page at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia
Re: Dia Schemas/DTDs
On 06 Nov 2002 12:26:43 -0600, Lars Clausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Durk Strooisma wrote: We noticed that Dia doens't make use of DTDs or XML Schemas (for example to validate Dia XML documents). Even correct DTDs or XML Schemas aren't provided, which would be handy to validate Dia XML documents within XML authoring tools. I don't know enough about DTDs and XML Schemas to judge whether this is a useful thing. We do have DTDs, but they're not used by Dia. Durk makes a good point. It would be useful, and it wouldn't be easy for an outsider to contribute. Forgive me if I'm belaboring the obvious. If Dia relied on its DTD to validate a file prior to/while loading it, then the DTD would be assured of being a good measure of a good Dia file. That would give non-Dia programs a benchmark for creating Dia files. And it would assist non-Dia programs in interpreting Dia files. (BTW, do I understand correctly that the DTD is a little out of synch with Dia's expectation of a Dia file?) Durk also mentions extending the DTD without changing the source code, to add attributes to shapes. I don't see how that's possible, nor do I understand how XML Schema comes into play. --jkl ___ Dia-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list FAQ at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/faq.html Main page at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia
