from:"mjollnir66"

Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

2016-05-02 Thread mjollnir66

Just seen with the System IT team : 

Unzipping every OOXML attachment and checking a tag inside a specific XML file 
could be done by script. 
This would be done on the incoming email server. 
We would choose a behaviour depending on the result, wether the file is strict 
OOXML or transitionnal OOXML. 

As we never had this kind of need before, it's costy in matter of ingeneering 
time. 

If/when you have information about how to dinstinguish transitionnal from 
strict OOXML, I would be glad to hear from it. 

Then I'll ask my direction if we can dig this (and update the thread whatever 
the answer is). 

Thank you again for your care and your expertise. 

Best Regards. 

M. 

- Mail original -

De: "Italo Vignoli"  
À: discuss@documentfoundation.org 
Envoyé: Jeudi 28 Avril 2016 14:37:08 
Objet: Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict 

On 28/04/2016 09:15, mjollni...@laposte.net wrote: 

> The question is, how do we enforce the rules with the greatest 
> efficiency possible. 

Unfortunately, interoperability is strictly related to the user 
behaviour, and should become a topic for students in schools. Users 
should learn how to create interoperable documents, not only related to 
fonts but also to other document elements. 

> In my opinion, an automatic reply of the administration ingoing email 
> platform would be the best solution. It would reply automatically to 
> anyone who sends an email with a transitionnal OOXML attached. This 
> email would be written very carefully whith information about IGR v2, 
> about the 2 versions of OOXML and about what are the best practices 
> to communicate with a french administration (ODF). 

This could educate users, over the very long term (as most users will 
completely ignore the remark). 

> Therefore is the following question : What is the easiest way to know 
> wether a file is written in strict OOXML or not ? 

I am investigating the issue myself, as I will talk to an audience of 
public administration employees in Italy in two weeks, and I will have 
to cover the topic. 

> Or maybe just checking if a single file exists or not would tell us 
> if the file is strict or transitionnal ? 

For sure, MS Office 2013 used to have huge problems in handling OOXML 
Strict: http://www.italovignoli.org/2014/02/redmond-we-have-a-problem/. 

Microsoft answer on the topic is that I did something wrong as a user, 
because I created some content before saving the OOXML Strict, while MS 
Office defaults to OOXML Transitional when you enter contents (so, you 
cannot save as OOXML Strict a document with contents). 

By the way, this was scrutinized by the UK Cabinet Office. 

-- 
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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

2016-04-28 Thread mjollnir66

Thank you very much for those informations. 
I did not succeed in getting them anywhere but here. 
They are going to be very useful (i'll translate them on the french discuss 
forum too) 

One last thing about this matter of OOXML. 

No average user is going to know (nor to care) about which OOXML version he is 
using. 
And, 99,99% of the time, it's going to be transitionnal OOXML. 
Which is un-recommended by law now, and which has to change whithin 3 years 
max. 

The question is, how do we enforce the rules with the greatest efficiency 
possible. 

In my opinion, an automatic reply of the administration ingoing email platform 
would be the best solution. 
It would reply automatically to anyone who sends an email with a transitionnal 
OOXML attached. 
This email would be written very carefully whith information about IGR v2, 
about the 2 versions of OOXML and about what are the best practices to 
communicate with a french administration (ODF). 

I'm not sure if it can be done technically, but I'm going to know it soon. If 
anyone has a better idea, please don't hesitate to tell. 

Therefore is the following question : 
What is the easiest way to know wether a file is written in strict OOXML or not 
? 

Surely we will have to unzip and check something in the OOXML file. 

Any way to do it without the need of unzipping it ? 
(check file property or check file header) 

If not, is there a single file in which we could check a tag for every kind of 
OOXML file (docx, pptx, xlsx..) ? 
(Unzip. Open xxx.xml. Find  tag. If value NEQ [xmlstrict] then send email 
to sender ) 

Or would we be obliged to have a different method for every kind of OOXML 
files. 
(Unzip. In case of filename ends with docx Open xxx.xml. Find  tag. If 
value NEQ [xmlstrict] then send email to sender. In case of filename ends with 
xlsx [...] ) 

Or maybe just checking if a single file exists or not would tell us if the file 
is strict or transitionnal ? 

- Mail original -

De: "Italo Vignoli"  
À: discuss@documentfoundation.org 
Envoyé: Mercredi 27 Avril 2016 19:39:14 
Objet: Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict 

On 26/04/2016 12:46, mjollni...@laposte.net wrote: 

> Is it correct to say that the Transitionnal OOXML format is not 
> compliant with any international standard or norm ? Neither ECMA, nor 
> ISO, nor anything but MS$ itself. 

OOXML Transitional is not the standard format, but a tweaked version of 
OOXML integrating bynary blobs and other non standard components, which 
was supposed to help the transition from the legacy file formats to 
OOXML Strict (which is the only standard file format). 

> If so, Does this means that NO version of MS$ office (from 2010 to 
> the actual) writes BY DEFAULT in a standardized or normalised format. 
> (cf. 
> https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc179191%28v=office.16%29.aspx 
> for default formats) 

Yes. Every Microsoft Office version since 2007 defaults to OOXML 
Transitional, implementing a slightly different version of the OOXML 
Transitional non standard file format. 

Only MS Office 2013 and MS Office 2016 implement OOXML Strict, with a 
process that makes it virtually impossible for any normal user to get a 
real OOXML Strict file format (the user should save the document using 
the OOXML Strict option - listed as last of the "save as" options - 
before writing a single character). 

Because of this behaviour which intentionally prevents the creation of 
OOXML Strict files, the number of OOXML Strict files available is close 
to zero. 

In addition, Microsoft fonts used as default by MS Office since 2007 - 
known as C-Fonts or Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas, Constantia and 
Corbel) - can only be used by MS Office licensed customers, as they are 
included in MS Office EULA, to add another level of incompatibility. 

> Is anyone confident enough in his knowledge of OOXML to acknowledge 
> this ? Maybe this place is not the best one to ask the question ? If 
> so, would please somebody advice me the best place to post the 
> question ? 

I am confident enough to answer most questions about OOXML issues. 

Please do note that after the UK decision on July 22, 2014, not even 
Microsoft has dared to define OOXML as standard in public, because it is 
perfectly clear that the file format is not standard and will never be a 
standard (after nine years and four different implementations of OOXML 
Transitional, which was supposed to last a maximum of two MS Office 
versions). 

-- 
Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR 
mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org 
hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli 
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Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

2016-04-26 Thread mjollnir66

So.

Is it correct to say that the Transitionnal OOXML format is not compliant with
any international standard or norm ? Neither ECMA, nor ISO, nor anything but
MS$ itself.

If so,
Does this means that NO version of MS$ office (from 2010 to the actual) writes
BY DEFAULT in a standardized or normalised format.
(cf. https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc179191%28v=office.16%29.aspx
for default formats)

Is anyone confident enough in his knowledge of OOXML to acknowledge this ?
Maybe this place is not the best one to ask the question ?
If so, would please somebody advice me the best place to post the question ?

- Mail original -

De: "Florian Reisinger"
À: mjollni...@laposte.net, discuss@documentfoundation.org
Envoyé: Mardi 26 Avril 2016 13:26:12
Objet: Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

Short answer: Any release (2007,2010,2013,2016) has it's own transitional
format. AFAIK

< mjollni...@laposte.net > schrieb am Di., 26. Apr. 2016, 10:13:

Hello,

I'm a french user willing to get some answers about OOXML format.
This post is already released on the fr.discuss mailing list.

As you may know, something changing the game just happened in France.
The second version of the Interoperability General Refenrential was just
released.
It demands all the public administrations (by law) to conform to certain file
formats when the exchanged from administration to administration or from a
citizen to an administration and vice et versa.

ODF is recommended.

OOXML strict is tolerated in some case.
OOXML transitionnal is not.
Binary older file formats are not either.

Thus, it becomes very interresting to investigate what's behind OOXML.

in this article :
https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/community/osor/case/complex-singularity-versus-openness

3 different OOXML formats are described :
"There is the ECMA version (that’s the one MS Office 2007 writes, which was
certified by ECMA International). Then there is OOXML Transitional, which is
relatively close to the ECMA version, and is the format that all later versions
to date write as default. Finally, there is OOXML Strict."

In this MS$ tab :
https://blogs.office.com/2012/08/13/new-file-format-options-in-the-new-office/#DR3YrKG0ymm0vmwB.97

Only two OOXML formats are described : transitionnal and strict

A very simple question to an OOXML specialist :

Is transitionnal OOXML ECMA-376 compliant ?

If not, is transitionnal OOXML compliant with any norm or standard ?

Best regards and thanks in advance for any answer.

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[tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

2016-04-26 Thread mjollnir66

Hello,

I'm a french user willing to get some answers about OOXML format.
This post is already released on the fr.discuss mailing list.

ODF is recommended.

OOXML strict is tolerated in some case.
OOXML transitionnal is not.
Binary older file formats are not either.

Thus, it becomes very interresting to investigate what's behind OOXML.

in this article :
https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/community/osor/case/complex-singularity-versus-openness

In this MS$ tab :
https://blogs.office.com/2012/08/13/new-file-format-options-in-the-new-office/#DR3YrKG0ymm0vmwB.97

Only two OOXML formats are described : transitionnal and strict

A very simple question to an OOXML specialist :

Is transitionnal OOXML ECMA-376 compliant ?

If not, is transitionnal OOXML compliant with any norm or standard ?

Best regards and thanks in advance for any answer.

Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

[tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict

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