My not of interest to the list was not a put-down, just meant this
is not shared background, not everybody-knows stuff.
Note:
My exact words were: not necessarily relevant history to others on this
list, either.
I was NOT saying: therefore shut up about it (even though I'd encouraged
you
-Original Message-
From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org
Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Microsoft's KPL
office in Switzerland - where the timekeeping action has always been -
hushed whisper
Wait a minute, isn't Kirby secretly Swiss
-Original Message-
From: Arthur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- except should it come from someone who asked me to
post it.
My irrelevancies are almost exclusively self-propelled.
So everyone who ever was - except for Kirby, once - is quite safe.
Art
From Kirby's follow-up measure to my blowing my cool, I am suspecting
that he did not mean to berate me for offering the (irrelevant to the
list) information he had asked me to offer. So I accept the probability
that there was a misunderstanding involved.
Exactly right. I was saying:
In a message of Sat, 08 Oct 2005 23:21:22 EDT, Arthur writes:
-Original Message-
From: Laura Creighton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Arthur
Cc: 'Laura Creighton'; 'Radenski, Atanas'; 'Chuck Allison'; edu-
I think that only people who thrive on playing with their
mathematical
-Original Message-
From: Laura Creighton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
This isn't a problem for men to solve as men. It is a problem for
educators to solve, as educators.
Well - let me be the reactionary, again.
With some reference back to David's point about social engineering
-Original Message-
From: Arthur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 10:40 AM
To: 'Laura Creighton'; 'Arthur'
Well - let me be the reactionary, again.
Only because this subject is *so* significant to me, and I understand that I
am subverting that seriousness
But will settle for a moratorium.
A good, long moratorium.
Art
Just trying to get clear what there's a moratorium on. Educators doing
something to right an imbalance of some kind? Sounds like we might want to
be doing that, not slamming a door shut on. And your objection is something
-Original Message-
From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:38 AM
To: 'Arthur'; 'Laura Creighton'
But will settle for a moratorium.
A good, long moratorium.
Art
Just trying to get clear what there's a moratorium on. Educators
This is part of the chemistry story. it attracts women who say the only
important reason for them to become chemists is that 'there were a lot
of women in it'. Which is rather hard on those of us who would like to
spread the succcess elsewhere. It means that if we could get even
moderately
-Original Message-
From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:55 AM
To: 'Arthur'; 'Laura Creighton'
Cc: edu-sig@python.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Microsoft's KPL
As a boy, I'm looking at a different rebalancing act: CS
I would appreciate it if you resisted.
I *am* resisting. It sounds to me like you want to block important
processing among expert educators by raising irrelevant specters, or rather,
relevant specters in an irrelevant fashion.
It is you who bring in Marxism as a key word, without context,
I have no place for GPS in my program.
Art
That's perfectly fine, and so we compete, counter-recruit. You fill your
school, I'll fill mine, and like that.
GPS is important when driving a [Google?] bizmo to a point of interest. We
train faculty in that skill, starting at a young age.
-Original Message-
From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 1:21 PM
To: 'Arthur'; 'Laura Creighton'
Cc: edu-sig@python.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Microsoft's KPL
knowing what time it is in Tokyo, when it's midnight in New York
Heh - I should to leave something on the table for my great granddaughter
to get to work on.
Art
This work is too primal to just leave undone for another 100 years. What
were we proposing to do in the meantime, just sit back and make money, watch
people starve? They'd never forgive us,
-Original Message-
From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 1:49 PM
This work is too primal to just leave undone for another 100 years. What
were we proposing to do in the meantime, just sit back and make money,
watch
people starve? They'd
The beautiful things that we are actually more than equipped to do now, as
I have said, and as you pass over.
Art
We're equipped to rescue people from disaster now. There's nothing
beautiful in not doing that. I'm not interested in your curriculum at this
point. Nuff said.
Kirby
My answer to your moral activist concerns, which I like to think I share
in my way, is mindfulness.
Mindfulness depends on an appreciation of the evolution of things.
I can't help but translate this into some Buddhist namespace -- several are
familiar to me.
The Empires of Time
-Original Message-
From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 1:10 PM
To: 'Arthur'; 'Laura Creighton'
It is you who bring in Marxism as a key word, without context, and expect
that to mean something to others. You presume a shared namespace. I
Just some intellectual honesty.
Art
Yes, and all highly ethnographic and not necessarily relevant history to
others on this list, either.
And me?
I grew up in Rome, with the Communist Party just another decal, with
candidates, rhetoric and so on, along with whatever exotic
-Original Message-
From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 2:31 PM
To: 'Arthur'; 'Laura Creighton'
In Fuller's (RBF's) lexicon, some of which I've adopted, per Synergetics
Dictionary (EJA), we speak of the East India Company
Yeah those folks
-Original Message-
From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 3:36 PM
To: 'Arthur'; 'Laura Creighton'
Cc: edu-sig@python.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Microsoft's KPL
Just some intellectual honesty.
Art
Yes, and all
I toss it off to the fact that I have not made enough of an effort to
study the man's thought to be in a position to say much, and my definite
impressions - though there - are not been worthy of mention.
Take a clue.
Art
But I'm a walking prickly pear of clues, so if you'd wanted to
-Original Message-
From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 4:09 PM
To: 'Arthur'; 'Laura Creighton'
In Fuller's (RBF's) lexicon, some of which I've adopted, per
Synergetics
Dictionary (EJA), we speak of the East India Company
Yeah those
-Original Message-
From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Speaking of ISEPP, I've got a boat meeting set up with the Wanderers CEO,
Don Wardwell (wwwanderers.org).
Maybe you should invite Dave and Lloyd to the Wanderers homepage as well:
Science would be ruined if it
Thanks Chuck, good info and insights. I think a lot of CS degree paths
featured watered down material. In a way that's good for philo majors like
me -- easier to compete with the grads of those programs when doing job
interviews around getting work with computer giants.
Kirby
-Original Message-
From: Chuck Allison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 1:12 PM
To: Kirby Urner
Cc: 'Arthur'; 'David Handy'; 'Laura Creighton'; edu-sig@python.org
Subject: Re[2]: [Edu-sig] Microsoft's KPL
About Arthur's affiliated comments, having
Do you know about PyPy? http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/news.html
It sounds to me as if you have the sort of upper level students that
would appreciate a compiler they can hack. We like students. JIT
goes in this week.
unashamed product announcement,
Laura
In a message of Sat, 08 Oct
-Original Message-
From: Laura Creighton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 7:01 PM
To: Chuck Allison
Cc: Arthur; 'Kirby Urner'; 'Laura Creighton'; edu-sig@python.org;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Edu-sig] Microsoft's KPL
In Sweden we have laws
As usual, I don't have time to comment on all the intriguing things that
have come out of this thread. But gender balance is something that I've
spent a lot of time thinking about and working on as regards our own
program. So I felt compelled to say something.
Laura Creighton wrote:
Why
Hello Laura,
Saturday, October 8, 2005, 5:01:16 PM, you wrote:
LC Why females shy away from math and science is no big mystery. It is
LC deemed 'not useful' by them. See many posts by Anna Ravenscoft on the
LC subject here in edu.sig archives. These days she is 'Anna Ravenscroft
LC Martelli'
Hello Arthur,
Saturday, October 8, 2005, 6:27:41 PM, you wrote:
A Not getting it. Beauty is beauty, and is never useful. Why is there a
A rejection in the women's culture of this particular form of useless beauty?
A But there are 2 important things to reject, I believe:
A That women are
In a message of Sat, 08 Oct 2005 19:31:46 CDT, John Zelle writes:
As usual, I don't have time to comment on all the intriguing things that
have come out of this thread. But gender balance is something that I've
spent a lot of time thinking about and working on as regards our own
program. So I
In a message of Sat, 08 Oct 2005 20:54:14 EDT, Arthur writes:
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Zelle
I speak to women all the time, and when I ask them why they're not in
CS, they tell me it's because they don't like computers.
In a message of Sat, 08 Oct 2005 18:25:57 PDT, Radenski, Atanas writes:
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
Behalf Of Arthur
Beauty is beauty, and is never useful.
'Beautiful' is what gives us pleasure. (Things that give us pleasure can
be useful
But I have read plenty of research through math society publications
that suggests that perhaps there is a genetic difference
mathematically. The jury is still out, of course, but the numbers
point that way. That's what the Harvard president in trouble, but the
numbers are in his favor. It
-Original Message-
From: Laura Creighton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 9:52 PM
To: Radenski, Atanas
Cc: Arthur; Laura Creighton; Chuck Allison; edu-sig@python.org;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; Kirby Urner; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Microsoft's KPL
-Original Message-
From: Arthur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Laura Creighton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 9:52 PM
To: Radenski, Atanas
Cc: Arthur; Laura Creighton; Chuck Allison; edu-sig@python.org;
So the
Hello Laura,
Saturday, October 8, 2005, 8:53:09 PM, you wrote:
LC I think that only people who thrive on playing with their
LC mathematical intuition will love computer science and all
LC higher math. But most women do not work on developing one.
This is complicated nowadays by the fact that
Part of our problem is that the development of 'education for all' has
historically happened in the economic climate where the great need was
to convert surplus farm-labour into industrial workers. Thus the sort
of things that were considered essential to a 'good education' was the
sort of things
I find Laura's analysis of social and educational trends to be insightful
and accurate, but it doesn't go quite far enough in exploring the question
what is the purpose of education in today's society? I find this to be
on-topic, as it gets at the root of why I wrote a programming textbook for
Maybe you are trying too hard. In my mind, I am only stating the obvious.
But you *always* seem to think you're stating the obvious. That's probably
why it's so hard to understand you.
And wondering why it seems to have become acceptable and common to ignore
it. Maybe you are looking for
From: Laura Creighton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 9:26 AM
To: Arthur
Cc: edu-sig@python.org
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Microsoft's KPL
Part of our problem is that the development of 'education for all' has
historically happened in the economic climate where
In a message of Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:52:09 PDT, Kirby Urner writes:
snip
In education, being a really small company is what's ultra cool. Because
your students think they might want to be private, independent entrepreneurs
like you someday.
This might be a better model for a general education
In a message of Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:52:09 PDT, Kirby Urner writes:
snip
In education, being a really small company is what's ultra cool. Because
your students think they might want to be private, independent
entrepreneurs
like you someday.
This might be a better model for a general
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Laura Creighton
To: Kirby Urner
In a message of Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:52:09 PDT, Kirby Urner writes:
snip
In education, being a really small company is what's ultra cool. Because
your students
-Original Message-
From: David Handy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 12:10 PM
To: Laura Creighton
Cc: Arthur; edu-sig@python.org
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Microsoft's KPL
Unfortunately, the public schools then become the
battleground of ideologies
Just a footnote to signal Arthur's concerns were both timely and topical.
Grunch was indeed moving to shake things up in the education sector.
And in PDX news of the day: OMSI was partnering with television to make
cartoon production a featured exhibit (and implicitly a kid-friendly
And I guess that if Microsoft wants to undertake a campaign to suggest
that
their business agenda and the realization of my son's potential are
cosmically related, I should, since I don't particularly admire the
organization welcome their right to spend good money to make themselves
LOOK
-Original Message-
From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 7:01 PM
To: 'Arthur'; 'David Handy'; 'Laura Creighton'
Cc: edu-sig@python.org
Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Microsoft's KPL
And I guess that if Microsoft wants to undertake a campaign
-Original Message-
From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 6:26 PM
To: 'Arthur'; 'Laura Creighton'
NATIONAL ALLIANCE OF STATE SCIENCE AND MATHEMATICS COALITIONS
News Brief #3285 Category: Business Role in Education
TITLE: Companies Unveil
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:edu-sig-
To: 'David Handy'; 'Guido van Rossum'
Cc: edu-sig@python.org
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Microsoft's KPL
A company like Microsoft would be ashamed - based on more traditional
notions - of publicly promoting a position
Hi Arthur --
I really do try to understand your concerns about businesses touting their
efforts in the education arena, and how much that concerns you.
For me it's more about recruiting i.e. for Microsoft to keep a new
generation of talent working in Redmond, it needs to have appeal as an
Microsoft's Coding 4 Fun website referenced below is ostensibly intended
to boost hobby coding on the MS platform. But my understanding is that
Microsoft has one of those we own you, body and soul, and everything you
create is owned by us employee contracts. So you can't code for fun and
release
Has anyone looked at this yet?
http://msdn.microsoft.com/coding4fun/
http://www.computerworld.com/developmenttopics/development/story/0,10801,105100,00.html
--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
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